Raymond Berry

[The Old Crow]

Wow. What an amazing document. Let me look at it and I'll come back.

 

 

Pretty cool . I haven't had a chance to go through the whole document myself, but it is certainly interesting. It backs up many of your points, but gives even more detail into what happened. I even forgot about the whole Raider's deal, and how it impacted the Colt's situation. 

[The Old Crow]

 understand city loyalty, my brother however raised me with Dodgers as only NY team in any sport to route for

 

I have , when won at auction a few years back 1 of only 5 graded 7 , & only 1 other graded at 8 , in slab with grading and authenticity ID etc etc (( really didnt cost much luckily, see attachment )  an unused ticket of last game at Ebbets fid,, BTW Dodgers Won

 

to me ticket looks brand new , not 1 crease

 

and ran out of likes again  (( here to long, maybe later back on forum, much to do now ))

 

http://forums.colts.com/topic/20981-raymond-berry/page-3#entry576631

 

 

That is one cool ticket. I have a nice memorabilia collection myself full of Colt, Orioles, and Raven tickets, autographs, programs , and the like. Collecting Brooklyn Dodgers stuff is cool, as they are a legendary team. I like all the present NFL, but it's nice to go back and reminiscence about the old days. They always bring a smile to your face. 

[The Old Crow]

And I think you know how I feel about that agreement....it's a total farce

 

What part is farcical ? I'm not stating it was a good agreement for Cleveland, or whitewashing Baltimore's involvement, but that was essentially the agreement that avoided further lawsuits. 

[BOTT]

What part is farcical ? I'm not stating it was a good agreement for Cleveland, or whitewashing Baltimore's involvement, but that was essentially the agreement that avoided further lawsuits.

I see no point in restating my position

[bayone]

now 2nd time writing this, may have left things out but my fingers lovked up and hit something to close browser before posting

 

so no more time now

 

I have most of the 58 , 59 Colts team all slabbed and graded llike that, as well as from 60's and early rookies,that were on 58 team

 

Earliest Rookie was 1951 kicker that started the 598 game , Burt Rechichar , called a Topps magic, siz of a * stamp, 1952 art Donovan and Ginoi Marchetti were made small and large by Bowman, I have large versions , that was rookie cards and in dallas texan uniforms that became colts next year, Picture moire like a painting ,like  real piece of art than picture, have other bowmans too, of colts, 

 

Of Course PM MVP 41 inscribed signed ball & unitas 1 of 500 that signed and incribed nut no longer vis record as indicated on ball of the TD streak , all with proper COA

 

-------------------------------

in 1980's got tons of signed baseballs , bats , photos but then no proper COAs like now and not paying for them, all from trusted sources so real, but COPA back then just said this is real, and didnt even name who it was about

 

Have a photo, bat & ball signed by both Bill Terry & Ted williams as last of the 400 hitters

 

Even have old 45's with picture and interviews of greats like Willie Mays,, many old Dodger programs and world series ones 

 

had a record of Koufax Perfect game Vs Cubs ( i beiieve ) when struck out last 6  but lost in move to Mich

--------------------------

 

Do have appraised all my original quite old 1960 & 70 Grateful Dead and other group concerts, these are evaluated , appraised and insured as is a lithograph of Lennon done by Yoko etc

---------------

 

Copy & past story

 

DAD & FOOTBALL< BASEBALL CARDS

 

You will love this

 

, I had every football & baseball card at least 1 of in great condition from about 1955 on till 70's and who knew they would be of value so when great dad asked , and I knew how deidcated he was to his special ed students of 40 + years teaching, as even I found out at his eulogy that he was gone on Thanksgiving Morning as was giving toys he bought to kids in hospital & he paid poor students Medical bills and bought them glasses etc , and was so great to me so as was saying he asked for the cards for his special ed students, & they called them a worse name then I couldnt say no when he asked , so there were all these the special ed kids with all these great cards on the spokes of their bicycles to make this great roaring noise as they rode , but hey I did it too, all kids did in the 60's & 70's----------------------------------------

I was lucky to be there visiting in NY and help work on him with EMC ambulance team when his porcine heart valve graft blew out, MOM said she would have waited for taxi for 2 hr drive to his cardiologist as what's use to go to someone but his NYU cardiologist , I won the argument and got the ambulance. Dad was talkative in no pain , but I knew was emergency as was Dr and couldn't wait. At ER still talkative and no pain. In back of ER once took him which was immediate the valve we presume blew as no autopsy but cardiologist wanted to do surgery 2 weeks before but said had to get stronger first or wouldn't make it and doubted he would get stronger even with special program. ER team was great , spent 45 minutes doing everything, before he passed as already had many miny strokes and mind already affected I actually found myself wondering if would be better if passed as if saved after that long I doubt his already affected mind , well the status could have & probably would have been vegetable at that point and for 8 years he already was huge burden on mom from strokes

Now just imagine if I didnt stay that 1 extra day & dads heart failed in the back of thev Taxi with mom, she my of had a heart attack

God works in mysterious ways, Every year i'd go bacj for a month and leave the dayafter a Jewish holiday ended,m this was the only time I decided to stay an extra day, God had to put that thought in me

 

 

That is one cool ticket. I have a nice memorabilia collection myself full of Colt, Orioles, and Raven tickets, autographs, programs , and the like. Collecting Brooklyn Dodgers stuff is cool, as they are a legendary team. I like all the present NFL, but it's nice to go back and reminiscence about the old days. They always bring a smile to your face. 

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Brian, I found a copy of the findings of the Mayor and City council of Baltimore versus the Baltimore Football Club, ie Indianapolis colts. It was on www.leagle.com/decision/1985902624FSupp278_1839. As you probably know , prior to the Raiders case it took 3/4 of the owners to approve a franchise moving from one city to another one. After the NFL lost the case to the Raiders , the NFL and it's owners didn't really even need to vote, because at that point Irsay could move when he wanted.

 

Ehhh the document is vague regarding what you are attempting to assert as fact i.e. that the NFL owners did NOT vote to give Robert Irsay permission. But I will give ground on this because it getting real legalesish. The document asserts that the owners did vote to neither approve nor disapprove of the move and that the understood "effect of that vote was that Robert Irsay could move the Colts to whatever city he chose". So, they went around their elbow in order to get to their nose.

 

Regardless, as I wrote earlier, you were attempting to use background details regarding one of 'many' factors that influenced the owners as a canard implying they really technically had no decision to make at all and therfore by some manner of osmosis probably didn't really "approve" of the move. You cannot assert that. They knew their lukewarm position was allowing Robert Irsay to move the franchise out of Baltimore. And if they did not approve of the move, they could've said so easily in a way that was not legally binding. They chose not to.

 

However, what would help to clarify would be the actual minutes of the Privileged Executive Session of the Special Meeting of the National Football League, dated March 2, 1984.

 

Nevertheless, that was a great find. I had not seen that document. I took you for nothing more than a lazy, bitter whiner. But that took some digging. Kudos.

[The Old Crow]

I see no point in restating my position

 OK ?

[The Old Crow]

 

now 2nd time writing this, may have left things out but my fingers lovked up and hit something to close browser before posting

 

so no more time now

 

I have most of the 58 , 59 Colts team all slabbed and graded llike that, as well as from 60's and early rookies,that were on 58 team

 

Earliest Rookie was 1951 kicker that started the 598 game , Burt Rechichar , called a Topps magic, siz of a * stamp, 1952 art Donovan and Ginoi Marchetti were made small and large by Bowman, I have large versions , that was rookie cards and in dallas texan uniforms that became colts next year, Picture moire like a painting ,like  real piece of art than picture, have other bowmans too, of colts, 

 

Of Course PM MVP 41 inscribed signed ball & unitas 1 of 500 that signed and incribed nut no longer vis record as indicated on ball of the TD streak , all with proper COA

 

-------------------------------

in 1980's got tons of signed baseballs , bats , photos but then no proper COAs like now and not paying for them, all from trusted sources so real, but COPA back then just said this is real, and didnt even name who it was about

 

Have a photo, bat & ball signed by both Bill Terry & Ted williams as last of the 400 hitters

 

Even have old 45's with picture and interviews of greats like Willie Mays,, many old Dodger programs and world series ones 

 

had a record of Koufax Perfect game Vs Cubs ( i beiieve ) when struck out last 6  but lost in move to Mich

--------------------------

 

Do have appraised all my original quite old 1960 & 70 Grateful Dead and other group concerts, these are evaluated , appraised and insured as is a lithograph of Lennon done by Yoko etc

---------------

 

Copy & past story

 

DAD & FOOTBALL< BASEBALL CARDS

 

You will love this

 

, I had every football & baseball card at least 1 of in great condition from about 1955 on till 70's and who knew they would be of value so when great dad asked , and I knew how deidcated he was to his special ed students of 40 + years teaching, as even I found out at his eulogy that he was gone on Thanksgiving Morning as was giving toys he bought to kids in hospital & he paid poor students Medical bills and bought them glasses etc , and was so great to me so as was saying he asked for the cards for his special ed students, & they called them a worse name then I couldnt say no when he asked , so there were all these the special ed kids with all these great cards on the spokes of their bicycles to make this great roaring noise as they rode , but hey I did it too, all kids did in the 60's & 70's----------------------------------------

I was lucky to be there visiting in NY and help work on him with EMC ambulance team when his porcine heart valve graft blew out, MOM said she would have waited for taxi for 2 hr drive to his cardiologist as what's use to go to someone but his NYU cardiologist , I won the argument and got the ambulance. Dad was talkative in no pain , but I knew was emergency as was Dr and couldn't wait. At ER still talkative and no pain. In back of ER once took him which was immediate the valve we presume blew as no autopsy but cardiologist wanted to do surgery 2 weeks before but said had to get stronger first or wouldn't make it and doubted he would get stronger even with special program. ER team was great , spent 45 minutes doing everything, before he passed as already had many miny strokes and mind already affected I actually found myself wondering if would be better if passed as if saved after that long I doubt his already affected mind , well the status could have & probably would have been vegetable at that point and for 8 years he already was huge burden on mom from strokes

Now just imagine if I didnt stay that 1 extra day & dads heart failed in the back of thev Taxi with mom, she my of had a heart attack

God works in mysterious ways, Every year i'd go bacj for a month and leave the dayafter a Jewish holiday ended,m this was the only time I decided to stay an extra day, God had to put that thought in me

 

 

 

Wonderful story. That litho of Lennon must have been hard to come by. I sure would have liked to meet some of the Beatles. Sadly, only two are left now. 

[bayone]

Wonderful story. That litho of Lennon must have been hard to come by. I sure would have liked to meet some of the Beatles. Sadly, only two are left now. 

 

 

didnt mean to go off topic on dads medical issues I see in quoted e-mail , I just copied and pasted what i had titled dad and thought was the cards only, in my rush didnt read

 

sorry for anyone if take offense

[The Old Crow]

Ehhh the document is vague regarding what you are attempting to assert as fact i.e. that the NFL owners did NOT vote to give Robert Irsay permission. But I will give ground on this because it getting real legalesish. The document asserts that the owners did vote to neither approve nor disapprove of the move and that the understood "effect of that vote was that Robert Irsay could move the Colts to whatever city he chose". So, they went around their elbow in order to get to their nose.

 

Regardless, as I wrote earlier, you were attempting to use background details regarding one of 'many' factors that influenced the owners as a canard implying they really technically had no decision to make at all and therfore by some manner of osmosis probably didn't really "approve" of the move. You cannot assert that. They knew their lukewarm position was allowing Robert Irsay to move the franchise out of Baltimore. And if they did not approve of the move, they could've said so easily in a way that was not legally binding. They chose not to.

 

However, what would help to clarify would be the actual minutes of the Privileged Executive Session of the Special Meeting of the National Football League, dated March 2, 1984.

 

Nevertheless, that was a great find. I had not seen that document. I took you for nothing more than a lazy, bitter whiner. But that took some digging. Kudos.

 

 

Thanks for ungrading me from lazy, bitter whiner to a somewhat upgraded position on the forum. At any rate, I'll take it. I guess the next step would be to find a document to say what NFL owners approved or disapproved of a move by a vote, if that existed. 

 

The old rule before the Davis case would have been 3/4 owners voting for a franchise to move. I think Irsay would have gotten some of the new Maverick NFL owners , and guys like Davis who felt they needed to move, but there was still a very conservative block of owners that may have opposed the move like Modell, Rooney, Tisch, to name a few. Whatever happened, it was a moot point, because they really didn't have to vote . I agree , the approve or disapprove deal was much like a congressman abstaining from a vote, that may be controversial, or they'll get nothing out of it by voting. If you are an owner at the time, and Irsay wants to move after you've paid legal expenses and got hammered in the Davis case, there is really nothing to gain by a vote, or pissing off a fellow owner looking to move. After the courts had rendered their decision, there was no incentive or reason for any NFL owner to vote against a move, because nothing could be done anyway. It came down to , we neither approve or disapprove, or absention, and good luck to you if you have to move. 

 

My main point was the effect of the Raiders case, had a lot to do with the Colts case. The Raiders/Davis case coming around the same time that Irsay wanted to move, definately effected the policies of the NFL, and it's owners. Could be a few nice details to update your blog. 

[HarassedOffTheSite]

My main point was the effect of the Raiders case, had a lot to do with the Colts case......could be a few nice details to update your blog. 

 

Done.

 

And ehhhh I don't believe you. I think you were attempting to use the Raiders situation as a canard and stretch the whole thing to imply that the owners probably didn't really personally "approve" of the move at all. And that they were just legally frozen in place. I could be wrong but that is my impression. If you were neutral about the whole situation I could consider it. But your comments in the past show that you are anything but neutral. You've inserted way too many opinions as facts and brought up personal axes that have nothing to do with the facts. You want to massage the story with those things in order to make it balanced. But sometimes, facts are not balanced. Sometimes people (individually or corporately) are just wrong.

 

The elected officials (and by immediate extension the people of Baltimore) were just plain wrong. And they are responsible for driving the Colts away. That's a fact. All the personal "feelings", gripes, opinions and attitudes will never change that. It just is what it is.

[bayone]

Wonderful story. That litho of Lennon must have been hard to come by. I sure would have liked to meet some of the Beatles. Sadly, only two are left now. 

 

 

most of my photos are all too large to down load

 

 The Greatest  Unitas

 

 SB XXXVI is most beautiful ticket as is  hologram , turn it and get american flag 

[bayone]

PS , I am so slow to edit from disability ran out of time

 

was saying have same exact SB 41 just a different PSA authentication Certificate # & higher grade but dont have a picture of it,  picture is shown is from site I ordered it from used as an example, SB 36 is mine own, also have sb 41 in other colored varieties, different varirties worth different amounts based on survival # 's besides condition

 

 

then there is this old one must include speaking about early Colts

 

 

 

Wonderful story. That litho of Lennon must have been hard to come by. I sure would have liked to meet some of the Beatles. Sadly, only two are left now. 

 

[The Old Crow]

Done.

 

And ehhhh I don't believe you. I think you were attempting to use the Raiders situation as a canard and stretch the whole thing to imply that the owners probably didn't really personally "approve" of the move at all. And that they were just legally frozen in place. I could be wrong but that is my impression. If you were neutral about the whole situation I could consider it. But your comments in the past show that you are anything but neutral. You've inserted way too many opinions as facts and brought up personal axes that have nothing to do with the facts. You want to massage the story with those things in order to make it balanced. But sometimes, facts are not balanced. Sometimes people (individually or corporately) are just wrong.

 

The elected officials (and by immediate extension the people of Baltimore) were just plain wrong. And they are responsible for driving the Colts away. That's a fact. All the personal "feelings", gripes, opinions and attitudes will never change that. It just is what it is.

 

I know we've talked about this a lot, and I know I will never change your opinion. As far as perception, we certainly have different perceptions probably based on age, and where we grew up. I'm probably no more a neutral than you are, nor do I claim to be, but I will debate points where I can add something to them. I try to be as fair as I can, but no one is totally unbiased. 

 

The Baltimore elected officials, people of Baltimore, and eminent domain are central to your views of what went down, and that's fine. My opinion is that was very much part of the story, but there is another story to be told about how it got to that point where these things happened, or a larger context. These aren't all personal opinions, gripes, etc., but as I pointed out, a big part of the story, and also facts. 

 

In my opinion, the central reason for your blog is to present an totally Indianapolis side of the story, which just centers on the Baltimore public officials mistakes, and the greater Baltimore community. That is fine if you are playing to an Indy-centered audience which you are probably doing on this forum. Had I written a similar blog, it would include many of the same elements and timelines you have in your story, but would include more about Irsay's relationship with the city, and the Raider's case on the Colts moving. I know you consider this irrelevant to your blog, and the opinion you want to get out, but I would certainly add it to any story I put together. 

[The Old Crow]

PS , I am so slow to edit from disability ran out of time

was saying have same exact SB 41 just a different PSA authentication Certificate # & higher grade but dont have a picture of it, picture is shown is from site I ordered it from used as an example, SB 36 is mine own, also have sb 41 in other colored varieties, different varirties worth different amounts based on survival # 's besides condition

then there is this old one must include speaking about early Colts

That is about as nice of a football card collection as I've seen. The Super Bowl 5 ticket is awesome too, and very hard to get ahold of. There are countless fakes out there, and I notice yours has all the certifications. I have an original Super Bowl 5 program, but not in the best condition. I am still looking for a Super Bowl 3 program , but at a reasonable price, which is hard to find. Like the collection !

[bayone]

That is about as nice of a football card collection as I've seen. The Super Bowl 5 ticket is awesome too, and very hard to get ahold of. There are countless fakes out there, and I notice yours has all the certifications. I have an original Super Bowl 5 program, but not in the best condition. I am still looking for a Super Bowl 3 program , but at a reasonable price, which is hard to find. Like the collection !

 

 

Thats Football display are not my graded cards I spoke of, just 1 of few things small enough to download saved on my computer and no longer have a camera and so far my disabilities have prevented smart phone use, Cant tell u # of cameras bought / dropped / broke , desktop keyboard hard, always dropping my flip phione but hasnt broke

 

Wish I could send pictures of all plagues on wwalls ,  Perfect game and 500 club balls though have been more members since

some bat close ups etc etc etc , 

 

Your programs is great,itys historical I wish had it , do have the one for sb 41 & 44 sold at stadium only so has the hologram cover and other official markings , got on ebay,  other sold  Via mail  lack those features ,

 

hated watching SB 3,  Morral misssed easy TD on flee flicker he never saw wide open, Namath never called the game in 1 interview admitted it, said press said it so he went along with it, this was soon afterr game or within a year , or just before game but think aftyer, really cant remember but know I vividly saw it ,,  I have never again seen him recant, only take the credit for the call and now its basically the llaw, Hey I cant blame him , why not , helps build your legend stautus

 

anyway at 4 PM I thjrough about 6 PM Eastern always busy with priorities so this is it 

 

 

take care, nice conversing Barry

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I know we've talked about this a lot, and I know I will never change your opinion.

 

My opinion does not matter. What you won't change is my observation of the facts and the reasonable conclusion I have made.

 

The Baltimore elected officials, people of Baltimore, and eminent domain are central to your views of what went down

 

No. Baltimore's elected officials and the brutally stupid idea of using eminent domain laws to steal the private property of a US citizen IS what went down. And IS what provoked the departure.

 

Had the city of Baltimore simply built a stadium.....like they eventually did anyway, they NEVER would've lost the team. Period.

 

The leaders of Baltimore and the local media treated Robert Irsay the exact same way they treated the previous owner. Irsay came aboard and for all his flaws gave Baltimore a chance....many. Baltimore offered excuses and nonsensical political speeches. And eventually reaped what it had sown.

 

...there is another story to be told about how it got to that point...

 

I explain in detail on my blog exactly how it got to that point. And it started well before Robert Irsay even thought about owning the Colts franchise.

 

...in my opinion....

 

You keep missing it. I do not care what your opinion is. It carries no weight. It is your concern and yours alone.

 

...the central reason for your blog......just centers on the Baltimore public officials mistakes, and the greater Baltimore community.

 

Because they are the reason the franchise departed. That is the truth. You don't like that I bring it to light and preclude the nonsensical gripes and excuses that you and people like you have passed off for decades as what really happened.

 

That is all that is happening here. Baltimore's politicians, media created a narrative (excuse to cover their responsibility)...and the simpletons that subscribe to it discard any facts that do not jive with their incompetent group think. And they stick their fingers in their ears and scream all manner of personal opinions and feelings about Robert Irsay as a smokescreen to avoid the truth:

 

Baltimore is to blame.

[The Old Crow]

My opinion does not matter. What you won't change is my observation of the facts and the reasonable conclusion I have made.

No. Baltimore's elected officials and the brutally stupid idea of using eminent domain laws to steal the private property of a US citizen IS what went down. And IS what provoked the departure.

Had the city of Baltimore simply built a stadium.....like they eventually did anyway, they NEVER would've lost the team. Period.

The leaders of Baltimore and the local media treated Robert Irsay the exact same way they treated the previous owner. Irsay came aboard and for all his flaws gave Baltimore a chance....many. Baltimore offered excuses and nonsensical political speeches. And eventually reaped what it had sown.

I explain in detail on my blog exactly how it got to that point. And it started well before Robert Irsay even thought about owning the Colts franchise.

You keep missing it. I do not care what your opinion is. It carries no weight. It is your concern and yours alone.

Because they are the reason the franchise departed. That is the truth. You don't like that I bring it to light and preclude the nonsensical gripes and excuses that you and people like you have passed off for decades as what really happened.

That is all that is happening here. Baltimore's politicians, media created a narrative (excuse to cover their responsibility)...and the simpletons that subscribe to it discard any facts that do not jive with their incompetent group think. And they stick their fingers in their ears and scream all manner of personal opinions and feelings about Robert Irsay as a smokescreen to avoid the truth:

Baltimore is to blame.

You are certainly a zealot against Baltimore, I'll give you that.

[BOTT]

You are certainly a zealot against Baltimore, I'll give you that.

Of course that's what you would take from his posts.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

You are certainly a zealot against Baltimore, I'll give you that.

 

No. Unlike you, I am simply a zealot for the truth.

[The Old Crow]

No. Unlike you, I am simply a zealot for the truth.

As am I. I'm surprised you gave me credit for finding the one article, but then you turned a good counterpoint that was backed up by fact, by trying to turn it into pro- Baltimore propaganda. No matter what facts I give you that add to the story, they are dismissed because they don't fit your narrative. It doesn't bother me because I don't mind debating issues on this forum, but I also don't care what you think of my conclusions on the move. I also know your blog, although interesting , is in no way. , shape or form , the definitive word on the move. In numerous threads I've pointed out things you could add to give a more historically accurate picture of things, rather than just posting a Baltimore messed up timeline devoid of context. Two examples I keep pointing out are the Raiders lawsuit in the NFL, and the Irsay relationship with Baltimore, as well as his record as owner that depressed attendance. The Elway affair is also omitted, as a third example.

Because of these omissions , your blog would be panned by NFL historians for leaving out vital parts of the story. But of course, adding these elements would distract from your hidden agenda of displaying Baltimore in a horrible light, and making Bob Irsay look like a total victim.

[The Old Crow]

Of course that's what you would take from his posts.

What are you some kind of Jaguars fan ? You already you said you didn't know much on the subject so I'm not sure why you are chiming in on this. I don't care if you want to slam me , but just be specific about what , in particular, you disagree with. I'm never sure where you are coming from. I have about 5 different points and you call something a farce, and then don't explain it. Look , I don't know you or your opinions on this, and I'm not Nostrodamus.

[The Old Crow]

No. Unlike you, I am simply a zealot for the truth.

Let me ask you a question. If you were a Baltimore fan , would you write a similar blog about how Cleveland lost the Browns, and how Modell did nothing to cause the situation ?

[The Old Crow]

No. Unlike you, I am simply a zealot for the truth.

 

 

Here are some additional facts that will never appear in your timeline/blog and are facts :

 

March 8th 1984- Maryland's offer included a 15 million, 8 percent loan , and an arrangement to relieve 2.2 million debt on the Owings Mills complex. ( They matched and beat the offer Indy had on the table at that timewhich was just 15 million and 8% loan)

 

March 11 , 1984- Hughes, Schaeffer, and Baltimore County Executive Don Huchinson led a Maryland delegation to meet Irsay . As part of the deal the city, state or Baltimore County would buy the practice complex, and lease it back to Irsay, further sweetening the deal.

 

March 15, 1984 Irsay met with Bruce Babbit and four other officials in Bakersfield, CA. Phoenix was willing to match the 15 million and 8 % , the 5 million dollar practice facility, and promise to build a downtown stadium. ( Irsay was squeezing every city he could for every last dollar. Hardly the picture of an owner trying to work with his city for a solution )

 

March 19 1984 Irsay skips NFL meeting in Hawaii. Phoenix guarantees ticket sales of 34,000.

 

March 25, 1984 Irsay flew to National Airport to meet De Francis and Schaeffer. They offered an expanded pacjake they believed met Irsay's demands.

 

March 26 1984- Out of frustration about the bidding wars and uncertainty, the Maryland State Senate was forced to look at two bills , one that would purchase the team outright for 40 million, and the other for eminent domain . ( This was because Irsay gave demands and kept upping the anty, after the demands were met. These were defensive bills because they didn't know if they could trust Irsay, or if he would negotiate further. )

 

March 27 1984- Irsay presented yet a new set of demands including the 15/8, plus a guaranteed home attendance of 43,000 and an offer of 6.6 million, up from the 4.4 million to purchase the training complex. ( More demands of a Northeast city in the early 1980's that was struggling financially. )

 

March 27 1984 The MD State Senate approved a bill by a vote of 38-4 for the eminent domain legislation. IT HAD NOT YET GONE TO THE HOUSE OF DELAGATES, AND MAY NOT HAVE PASSED. IT WAS ALSO NOT SIGNED BY THE GOVERNOR .

 

March 28, 1984 De Francis and Shaeffer each tried twice to reach Irsay be phone to tell him the city would accept a new list of demands. Irsay did not take the calls. Shortly before 10, the moving vans arrived at Owings Mills. ( Conclusion: The Eminent Domain legislation was just a leverage option that was never intended to be deployed. If this was not true, and the eminent domain was their true motive, why the phone calls by De Francis and Shaeffer agreeing to all the Irsay demands before the moving vans came ? They obviously wanted to give Irsay what he wanted, and had no intention of going the eminent domain route. )

 

March 28-29 Colts move to Indianapolis

 

March 29 1984  Hughes signs Eminent Domain bill, but only after Colts had left, and there was no choice. (The bill was never intended to be signed, as they had wanted to work out an agreement with Irsay )

 

So here are some more facts Brian leaves out of his narrative , as Irsay put his team up to bid for the highest bidder, be it Phoenix, Indianapolis, Jacksonville, or Nashville. Baltimore, as a cash- strapped Northeast city at that time, was making every effort to meet Irsay's increasing and changing demands as he constantly leveraged Baltimore against other cities for even more money. The eminent domain bill was never signed into law and was just leverage used by the city, much as Irsay was doing the same to Baltimore, by playing them against other cities, to squeeze every dime out of them. The bill was never signed until after Irsay left Baltimore !

 

Now think about your city, Indianapolis, if your current ownerwas taking the Colts to the LA Coliseum for a fan fest, or you were 2-14, 1-15, and 0-8-1 three years in a row, and they wanted a guaranteed 43,000 season tickets to see an embarrassing and crappy product. The you get the #1 pick in the draft pick, one of the top quarterbacks of all time, and you trade him for an offensive lineman, and a back-up quarterback. You meet every demand, but the owner goes to three other cities and then changes and ups the demands on a city. He trades away all your great players like Bert Jones and Rodger Carr and drafts Art Schlichter. I could go on and on, but you get the drift. These are all facts, but you'll find none of them in the Indy blog, because they don't fit the pre-determined conclusions. Like you consider your story facts, these are indisputable facts in a timeline as they happened. This is the Baltimore side of trying to negotiate with a volatile  owner who was looking to move the minute he traded the team with the Rams in 1972. You can believe it or not, but all this happened, and it is found nowhere in the so-called definitive story of the move to Indianapolis. Ask yourself, how and why would you leave all this information out ?

[BOTT]

What are you some kind of Jaguars fan ? You already you said you didn't know much on the subject so I'm not sure why you are chiming in on this. I don't care if you want to slam me , but just be specific about what , in particular, you disagree with. I'm never sure where you are coming from. I have about 5 different points and you call something a farce, and then don't explain it. Look , I don't know you or your opinions on this, and I'm not Nostrodamus.

I'm not going explain it to you, because everything has been explained to you a thousand times and it doesn't do any good. You will just stick to your nonsensical point of view.

I said I'm no expert, and unlike some people (old crow), I don't pretend to be one.

[House]

Hey look. It's this discussion. Again.

[The Old Crow]

Epilogue:

 

Today we witnessed many holes in the Definitive Move to Indy Blog. We proved that there was no actual vote by the NFL approving Irsay's move , just a finding of neither approval or disapproval for the move as it was a moot point as a result of the lawsuit. This blows the myth that NFL owners were against Baltimore and eager for the Colts to move. 

 

Secondly, the eminent domain bill was never signed into law, and probably would never had, if the Colts wouldn't have left first. Only one part of the legislature passed it, and it is possible that the House of Delegates or the Governor would have never signed it into law. We'll never know because the two calls placed were never picked up by the owner to tell him all of his list of current demands were met. This just about blows up the whole main thesis of this blog. 

 

Just remember, I wasn't the one that said Raymond who, about Raymond Berry to get a response. I'm sure I'll get blamed for it anyway. Round up the usual suspects !

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I'm surprised you gave me credit for finding the one article

 

Not as surprised as I am. Your unwillingness to orient yourself properly to reality precluded you from being able to perform honest research. I can only assume you fell bassackwards into it. Regardless, I gave you your kudos.

 

No matter what facts I give you that add to the story, they are dismissed because they don't fit your narrative.

 

No. They are dismissed because they are not facts that led directly to the team leaving Baltimore. They are by and large petty little personal attacks on Robert Irsay’s character. Nothing more.

 

I also know your blog, although interesting , is in no way. , shape or form , the definitive word on the move.

 

don’t be bitter. When you find a more definitive word….let us all know.

 

In numerous threads I've pointed out things you could add to give a more historically accurate picture

 

No. You’ve simply attempted to massage the story to something you consider more balanced. I have already addressed this. I see no reason to continue to do so.

 

Two examples I keep pointing out are the Raiders lawsuit in the NFL

 

The Raiders lawsuit has NOTHING to do with the Colts move to Indianapolis.

 

…and the Irsay relationship with Baltimore

 

Again, I have addressed this.

 

as well as his record as owner that depressed attendance.

 

because attendance had nothing to do with it. The revenue that could be generated by a new stadium was. Nobody is concerned with the lack of support the people of Baltimore gave the team in the down years.

 

The Elway affair is also omitted

 

Because it had nothing to do with the move.

 

But of course, adding these elements would distract from…

 

…the facts.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

March 8th 1984- Maryland's offer included a 15 million, 8 percent loan , and an arrangement to relieve 2.2 million debt on the Owings Mills complex. ( They matched and beat the offer Indy had on the table at that time which was just 15 million and 8% loan)

 

Maryland could’ve offered the moon….without a new stadium or SIGNIFICANT improvements to Memorial Stadium, the financial payoffs did not matter.

 

March 11 , 1984- Hughes, Schaeffer, and Baltimore County Executive Don Huchinson led a Maryland delegation to meet Irsay . As part of the deal the city, state or Baltimore County would buy the practice complex, and lease it back to Irsay, further sweetening the deal.

 

Maryland could’ve bought the moon….without a new stadium or SIGNIFICANT improvements to Memorial Stadium, the financial payoffs did not matter.

 

March 15, 1984 Irsay met with Bruce … Irsay was squeezing every city he could for every last dollar.

 

LOL that is what a good businessman does….get the best deal possible. What part of that are you having difficulty comprehending?

 

March 19 1984 Irsay skips NFL meeting in Hawaii.

 

So what?

 

Phoenix guarantees ticket sales of 34,000.

 

So what?

 

March 25, 1984 Irsay flew to National Airport to meet De Francis and Schaeffer. They offered an expanded pacjake they believed met Irsay's demands.

 

Maryland could’ve offered the moon….without a new stadium or SIGNIFICANT improvements to Memorial Stadium, the financial payoffs did not matter. What part of that are you having difficulty comprehending?

 

[The Old Crow]

I'm not going explain it to you, because everything has been explained to you a thousand times and it doesn't do any good. You will just stick to your nonsensical point of view.

I said I'm no expert, and unlike some people (old crow), I don't pretend to be one.

 

Again, no facts or explanation. I honestly don't know what you are talking about ? How can a set of indisputable facts set in a timeline, and fully researched, be nonsensical ? If you read through all of my threads, you will see that I am much more balanced on most subjects, than many are. If I'm wrong , like my SF prediction, I good naturedly take my medicine, and the related barbs. I'm not saying I'm an expert, but I was living in Maryland when this happened, and followed it closely from 1972-1984. It was my football team, and obviously I was interested. When I disagree with points, I try to do it politely, and respect the forum member with opposing views. And honestly, I don't take personally any criticism leveled against me, but I can't even give you any explanation, when I don't know what you're talking about. I've responded to probably a thousand threads. Are all 1000 nonsensical , or don't you like me because I'm currently a Raven's fan. I was an old Baltimore Colt's fan so I do get on threads many times because of the old Baltimore Colts because that interests me. I'm also intrigued by the current Indy Colts, and although not a fan, have been complimentary many times about the team. 

[HarassedOffTheSite]

March 26 1984- Out of frustration about the bidding wars and uncertainty, the Maryland State Senate was forced to look at two bills

 

LOLOL utter nonsense. And you know it.

 

March 27 1984 The MD State Senate approved a bill by a vote of 38-4 for the eminent domain legislation. IT HAD NOT YET GONE TO THE HOUSE OF DELAGATES, AND MAY NOT HAVE PASSED. IT WAS ALSO NOT SIGNED BY THE GOVERNOR.

 

Yes, I know. So what?

 

March 28, 1984 De Francis and Shaeffer each tried twice to reach Irsay be phone to tell him the city would accept a new list of demands. Irsay did not take the calls.

 

Of course he didn’t. The reasons are spelled out in my blog entry. I’m not going over the same terrain multiple times just because you fail to read the material.

 

Conclusion: The Eminent Domain legislation was just a leverage option that was never intended to be deployed.

 

If that were so, it was brutal incompetence. I’d steer away from that line of B.S. because it paints Baltimore in the even worse light of being led by *.

 

They obviously wanted to give Irsay what he wanted

 

No. They did not. If they had, they would’ve approved plans to build a new stadium.

 

March 29 1984  Hughes signs Eminent Domain bill, but only after Colts had left, and there was no choice. (The bill was never intended to be signed, as they had wanted to work out an agreement with Irsay)

 

If that were so, it was brutal incompetence. I’d steer away from that line of B.S. because it paints Baltimore and Maryland in the even worse light of being led by *.

 

So here are some more facts Brian leaves out of his narrative, as Irsay put his team up to bid for the highest bidder.

 

And? That is what businessmen do.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

…as a cash- strapped Northeast city at that time…

 

Magically placed the building of a new stadium at the top of the agenda. Immediately after the Colts left.

 

Now think about your city

 

No.

 

This is the Baltimore side of trying to negotiate with a volatile owner

 

Then you should’ve built a stadium like he wanted instead of negotiating payoffs.

 

[irsay] was looking to move the minute he traded the team with the Rams in 1972.

 

Nonsense. And unsupported by the facts. Pure (and typical surmising).

[HarassedOffTheSite]

the eminent domain bill was never signed into law

 

LOLOL yes it was. You'll even misrepresent a basic fact like this.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/30/sports/colts-move-to-indianapolis-is-announced.html

 

"Within hours, the Maryland House of Delegates had given final legislative approval to a measure authorizing the city of Baltimore to try through the courts to seize the team under the powers of eminent domain, and Governor Harry Hughes signed the bill into law."

[The Old Crow]

LOLOL yes it was. You'll even misrepresent a basic fact like this.

 

"On Friday, March 30, the Maryland legislature enacted Emergency Bill No. 1042, 1984 Md. Laws Ch. 6, the legislation which authorized Baltimore City to condemn sports franchises. Shortly thereafter, the Mayor and City Council of Baltimore enacted Emergency Ordinance No. 32, which also authorized such a condemnation. Under the authority of these two pieces of legislation, the City immediately filed a condemnation petition in the Circuit Court for Baltimore City, seeking to acquire the Colts by eminent domain and to enjoin the Colts from doing anything to further the transfer of the franchise. The Circuit Court issued an injunction, purporting to prohibit the Colts from relocating outside Maryland."

 

Yes, only after the Colts left and he didn't return the phone calls that had met his demands on March 28th. My timeline covers that ! No Eminent domain bill was signed until AFTER the Colts left. You and others say it was because of this bill he left, but then you also say it was because of the stadium. Which one was it ? Maryland offered 23 million in stadium improvements, and Irsay would not sign it. Your comments show Irsay was constantly moving the target, and nothing Baltimore would do would ever satisfy him. Your comments about the Oakland/LA Raiders case having nothing to do with the Colts case is quite shocking, and shows you do not know the full context of those times.  Irsay would have had to take extra steps to move, and get the 3/4 vote from owners, if the lawsuit had not been won by Al Davis. 

 

Had Irsay put a better product on the field, and got along with the politicians in Baltimore better, maybe things would have been different. I'm no longer bitter, but just discussing a historical event 30 years ago that is very interesting. I've moved onto the Ravens, while others have stayed with the Colts. I like the old Baltimore Colts, so this stuff interests me. I just don't like seeing events depicted in such a one-sided fashion, that's all. 

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Yes............No Eminent domain bill was signed until AFTER the Colts left

 

LOLOL were the Colts supposed to wait around for the Governor to sign it before they attempted to leave? What a childish line of debate. LOLOL

 

Regardless, you're a liar. You intentionally misrepresented the facts when you wrote "the eminent domain bill was never signed into law". You did not qualify it with any date. You knew what you were doing. And you are therefore not an honorable arbiter of the facts surrounding this entire subject. Good day sir.

[GoColts8818]

Sounds like this was an oversight in Baltimore and Indy. I found an article where Sylvia Mackey said she would be happy if the Colts retired # 88 for Mackey and Harrison, and they could share the number. She went onto say they were both Syracuse players so they had an additional bond.

i'd have zero problem with that and have suggested it myself even before this conversation, not that my suggestions mean anything.

[GoColts8818]

I would hope not, but I wouldn't put anything past Elway and Bowlen. The Yankees do this to other teams all the time .

they can try but since one of their former players had it retired and had to tell Peyton to wear it for Peyton to do it I don't think it would go over well with their fanbase and I know it wouldn't go over well with Peyton.

[The Old Crow]

LOLOL were the Colts supposed to wait around for the Governor to sign it before they attempted to leave? What a childish line of debate. LOLOL

Regardless, you're a liar. You intentionally misrepresented the facts when you wrote "the eminent domain bill was never signed into law". You did not qualify it with any date. You knew what you were doing. And you are therefore not an honorable arbiter of the facts surrounding this entire subject. Good day sir.

You want facts, I'll give you facts, but you can't handle the truth.

The Colts started moving via Mayflower starting 10 PM March 28 and were gone by the wee hours of March 29th. The eminent domain bill was not signed until 12 noon on March 29th when the vans were already out of Maryland. ( This is an indisputable fact that comes from the Baltimore Sun). There was NO Eminent Domain bill until after the Colts left. Irsay would not take the two calls from the mayor and the governors aid. Why would they call and except Irsay's demands if they were just going to seize the Colts by Eminent Domain ?

The Eminent Domain was a defensive measure that had only been passed by one branch of legislature and not passed into law , because it was Irsay who had actually cocked the gun to the State of Maryland with three bidders going after the Colts. This was only done because the situation looked hopeless, which it was. Four years earlier , Irsay told Jacksonville officials it was not a matter of him leaving Baltimore, but only when. This was why one part of the legislature passed the bill, but factually no one tried to take Irsay's team until HE ALREADY LEFT . This is a fact , not opinion.

Your blog now had more holes in it than Swiss cheese . You main thesis about Eminent Domain, and the meanies in Baltimore are out the window. I've already told you I don't exonerate Baltimore for part of the blame about why this happened , but you'll never come off your mark no matter how many facts are thrust at you , and present a more balanced story.

As far as Irsay being a good businessman, his son and Steve Bisciotti are good businessmen. They form alliances in the local communities, are fan friendly, put a great football product on the market, treat their employees with respect , get along with local politicians. These two are good businessmen, in my opinion, and the elder Irsay failed in many of the good businessman categories. This last part is opinion, but the rest are facts you surely won't like to swallow, and I'm sure will be met by the usual dismissive comments without facts, as well as barbs.

[The Old Crow]

i'd have zero problem with that and have suggested it myself even before this conversation, not that my suggestions mean anything.

It certainly makes sense. I have no doubt it would be greatly appreciated in the Mackey family.

[The Old Crow]

LOLOL yes it was. You'll even misrepresent a basic fact like this.

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/30/sports/colts-move-to-indianapolis-is-announced.html

"Within hours, the Maryland House of Delegates had given final legislative approval to a measure authorizing the city of Baltimore to try through the courts to seize the team under the powers of eminent domain, and Governor Harry Hughes signed the bill into law."

Your article only proves my point that there was no law before the Colts moved. The governor here is explaining how they met every demand, but they kept changing. You never answered the question why Irsay didn't take the two calls when all of his demands had been met. How can you say Baltimore tried to take his team when all demands were met , and their was no Eminent Domain bill until after the Colts had left ?

Certainly there was a threat of eminent domain , but this was the city seeking leverage in a negotiation because Irsay was using all the leverage he could playing three cities off of each other. If Maryland really wanted to do Eminent Domain, they could have got both legislative bodies together and signed the bill the same day when the first body of legislature had already done so. If they wanted to take his team, why would DeFrancis and Shaeffer call to tell him all his demands were met ? Your article only strengthens my argument.