Hate To Say I Told You So

[MAC]

But MAC.... isn't it also true though that Palmer requested a trade from a completely dysfunctional, thug-enabling. ego-centric WR enabling jackwagon of an owner?

I mean, maybe Palmer got tired of seeing headlines of his team mates latest off-field escapades.... key players mind you.... only to watch their thug-coddling, noodle-spined coach and GM take them back with open arms, and then draft/sign more troublemakers to boot.

For a while there, I wondered if Mike Brown was going to sell the stadium naming rights to a bail bondsman.

If I were Palmer and I had to deal with that level of organizational dysfunction.... i may have done the exact same thing. And with 40 or 50 mil in the bank maybe he felt retirement wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world either.

The really, really strange thing about all this is that over the last 15 months or so..... and in the very midst of this Palmer mess.... Mike Brown has had some sort of transformation that has him no longer appearing like the most incompetent GM in the NFL.

His last 2 drafts have indeed been pretty darn good, and the Palmer trade for those Raider draft picks was dang near the equivalent of taking a leak on Al Davis' grave.

Pretty weird... even by Bengals standards.

Some very valid points. It's a strange situation, and none of us can know what really went on.

Even with that though - going back to the original premise I presented - I just can't imagine Peyton handling the situation as Palmer did. You couldn't keep PM off the field with an automatic weapon. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't have retired myself - I'm just trying to think like your typical franchise QB, and suggesting that Palmer appears to differ from that standard. Also, I'm sure that he's on his second contract, and they were very much a dysfunctional thug filled team with the same horrid owner when he signed it. Same head coach as well. And while your comments about Brown are interesting - I hadn't given that much thought - if anything they only support my argument even further. This is the best Bengals team in years, and even that didn't inspire Palmer to stay. Instead he's going to a clearly inferior team who are in a state of flux because THEIR owner just died.

But separate from everything else, that was a very good trade by the Bengals. Of course it suggests that Brown is incredibly stubborn, because most GMs would have dumped him for a 3rd round pick before training camp, opened up the salary cap space quicker, and avoided all the drama. More lucky than shrewd. They got an offer big enough to make it worth Browns while to stop punishing Palmer. Apparently both men have their price. There go the Raiders again. I'm still perplexed about the Seymour trade (and as a Colts fan, angry as well).

[GoColts8818]

Some very valid points. It's a strange situation, and none of us can know what really went on.

Even with that though - going back to the original premise I presented - I just can't imagine Peyton handling the situation as Palmer did. You couldn't keep PM off the field with an automatic weapon. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't have retired myself - I'm just trying to think like your typical franchise QB, and suggesting that Palmer appears to differ from that standard. Also, I'm sure that he's on his second contract, and they were very much a dysfunctional thug filled team with the same horrid owner when he signed it. Same head coach as well. And while your comments about Brown are interesting - I hadn't given that much thought - if anything they only support my argument even further. This is the best Bengals team in years, and even that didn't inspire Palmer to stay. Instead he's going to a clearly inferior team who are in a state of flux because THEIR owner just died.

But separate from everything else, that was a very good trade by the Bengals. Of course it suggests that Brown is incredibly stubborn, because most GMs would have dumped him for a 3rd round pick before training camp, opened up the salary cap space quicker, and avoided all the drama. More lucky than shrewd. They got an offer big enough to make it worth Browns while to stop punishing Palmer. Apparently both men have their price. There go the Raiders again. I'm still perplexed about the Seymour trade (and as a Colts fan, angry as well).

The Wes Welker trade makes me more mad...I mean the Dolphins sorta went hey New England you want a good football player? No we don't we need anything major in return he's all yours!

[pacolts56]

Some very valid points. It's a strange situation, and none of us can know what really went on.

Even with that though - going back to the original premise I presented - I just can't imagine Peyton handling the situation as Palmer did. You couldn't keep PM off the field with an automatic weapon. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't have retired myself - I'm just trying to think like your typical franchise QB, and suggesting that Palmer appears to differ from that standard. Also, I'm sure that he's on his second contract, and they were very much a dysfunctional thug filled team with the same horrid owner when he signed it. Same head coach as well. And while your comments about Brown are interesting - I hadn't given that much thought - if anything they only support my argument even further. This is the best Bengals team in years, and even that didn't inspire Palmer to stay. Instead he's going to a clearly inferior team who are in a state of flux because THEIR owner just died.

But separate from everything else, that was a very good trade by the Bengals. Of course it suggests that Brown is incredibly stubborn, because most GMs would have dumped him for a 3rd round pick before training camp, opened up the salary cap space quicker, and avoided all the drama. More lucky than shrewd. They got an offer big enough to make it worth Browns while to stop punishing Palmer. Apparently both men have their price. There go the Raiders again. I'm still perplexed about the Seymour trade (and as a Colts fan, angry as well).

Very true.... and Palmer may live to regret his trade demand. But I guess his trust that Brown would turn things around was gone.

You're right too.... Manning wouldn't pull the same move. Nor would the Colts or Jim Irsay in any way deserve that.

Palmer's saving grace might be that he is in a division where the Raiders are as good a bet as any to have 2-3 years of solid success.... because it looks like the Chargers are really turning out to be paper tigers, KC is up and down and Denver is pretty shaky for now.

Who knows.... maybe the trade turns out as a win-win.

[MAC]

The Wes Welker trade makes me more mad...I mean the Dolphins sorta went hey New England you want a good football player? No we don't we need anything major in return he's all yours!

ABSOLUTELY. :pullhair: Don't even get me started. The draft day extravaganzas drive me up the wall.

I happen to also be a Montreal Canadiens fan. Back in the 60s/70s they had a GM who would flat out physically abuse anybody that he traded with. Over and over relentlessly. They once acquired a first round draft pick from one of the worst teams in the league, and then made a deal with the only team that had a chance to finish worse then that team - sending them a quality but aging player for next to nothing in return - just to make sure they did just a LITTLE bit better than the team whose pick the Canadiens held. The result for the Canadiens was Guy Lafleur, and another decade or more of incredible success. The result for the other team was a few years of failure and then to be folded into another struggling franchise.

The point is, a sucker may be born every minute, but this goes on endlessly - and it's not like people can clearly see whose name is on the caller ID. If Belichick called my team and asked for a player in a trade, I'd say NO, and then go try and figure out what we're missing.

[shaunzo]

Are the Raiders that much better than the Colts?

Yes. They have a running game and a good defense.

[Blue Horseshoe]

The Wes Welker trade makes me more mad...I mean the Dolphins sorta went hey New England you want a good football player? No we don't we need anything major in return he's all yours!

He had never done anything special in Miami. 400 yd one year and 600 another and some pretty average punt return numbers.

They didn't know how to use him The Patriots did.

[John Dee]

"So did reggie"? What are you talking about. He held out for ten minutes because he wanted to make a statement about money. He made a point of not doing a single thing that might either lead his teammates/fans to think that he wasn't fully committed to the team, or to negatively affect his performance on the field. Then he came back and played like the classy all-pro team leader that he his, without bringing up the issue again.

Palmer was THE face of his franchise, and he essentially said "to heck with the fans, to heck with my teammates, to heck with my responsibilities, to heck with my career, to heck with the money, I have a personality clash with the owner, so I'm going to take my ball and go home". It was juvenile and SHOULD have destroyed his credibility altogether.

The fact that the Raiders took him (and paid so much) says a lot about them - perhaps the only organization in the NFL that is run worse than the Bengals. If was match made in heck.

I understand that you don't like the Polians - I'm not getting back into that nonsense with you. Your opinion doesn't change the fact that the Colts have one of the most highly regarded organizations in the league, and the Bengals one of the worst. The Bengals are exactly what the Colts were before Jim Irsay took over. If you don't understand and respect the difference, then I'm guessing you weren't old enough to be a fan during those years. You know not of what you speak.

Careful... Palmer got sick of the Bengals and their "same old same old ways" ... The Bengals have 2x the talent Indy has, Peyton could very well look at Indy this next season and pull the same crap. Unlikely but it really is a bit of a similar situation,

Palmer got sick of the losing, Peyton has been winning... only difference.

Palmer's issue was with the organization, Manning's "potentially" would be with the organization/talent.

[John Dee]

He had never done anything special in Miami. 400 yd one year and 600 another and some pretty average punt return numbers.

They didn't know how to use him The Patriots did.

He was a great PR'r in Miami... that is all they would let him do... and the rest is history.

But, Indy has never even tried to fix ST's so why even consider Welker would have been an option?

[braveheartcolt]

And what is your point?

[John Dee]

ABSOLUTELY. :pullhair: Don't even get me started. The draft day extravaganzas drive me up the wall.

I happen to also be a Montreal Canadiens fan. Back in the 60s/70s they had a GM who would flat out physically abuse anybody that he traded with. Over and over relentlessly. They once acquired a first round draft pick from one of the worst teams in the league, and then made a deal with the only team that had a chance to finish worse then that team - sending them a quality but aging player for next to nothing in return - just to make sure they did just a LITTLE bit better than the team whose pick the Canadiens held. The result for the Canadiens was Guy Lafleur, and another decade or more of incredible success. The result for the other team was a few years of failure and then to be folded into another struggling franchise.

The point is, a sucker may be born every minute, but this goes on endlessly - and it's not like people can clearly see whose name is on the caller ID. If Belichick called my team and asked for a player in a trade, I'd say NO, and then go try and figure out what we're missing.

BB has been giving a "LOT" of very good football players away lately... and getting picks. What has it done for them?

The last 5 years NE is drafting as badly as Indy. Maybe Worse.....

[John Dee]

And what is your point?

Just keep writing anti Polian posts....

[braveheartcolt]

Just keep writing anti Polian posts....

Oh I will, trust me. Until he's gone. Then we as a fan base can rejoice! And then you'll see the light!

[John Dee]

Oh I will, trust me. Until he's gone. Then we as a fan base can rejoice! And then you'll see the light!

There is a "Lot" of blame to go around here....

[Blue Horseshoe]

There is a "Lot" of blame to go around here....

Much which should be directed at Polian.

[John Dee]

Much which should be directed at Polian.

This is how I feel... "IF" BP is doing such a horrific job then isn't it the OWNERS job to step in and "FIX" things?

Seriously? Everyone wants to blame the Polians, and they do deserve blame.... But where does the buck stop?

Irsay has to decide it is time for a change.

and I for one do think a change would be beneficial.

[braveheartcolt]

This is how I feel... "IF" BP is doing such a horrific job then isn't it the OWNERS job to step in and "FIX" things?

Seriously? Everyone wants to blame the Polians, and they do deserve blame.... But where does the buck stop?

Irsay has to decide it is time for a change.

and I for one do think a change would be beneficial.

Yes, I agree. But the myth that Polian is the Exec of the Decade (for drafting Manning really) is obviouly misleading him! But you are correct.

[GoColts8818]

He had never done anything special in Miami. 400 yd one year and 600 another and some pretty average punt return numbers.

They didn't know how to use him The Patriots did.

He did enough that he was getting attention in Miami before he was traded and enough that several people on this forum couldn't believe Miami just gave Wes Welker to the Pats. With that said a lot of peole didn't exect him to be as good as he has turned out to be but people did know he was going to be a good player.

[MAC]

BB has been giving a "LOT" of very good football players away lately... and getting picks. What has it done for them?

The last 5 years NE is drafting as badly as Indy. Maybe Worse.....

True - thank goodness. I wasn't actually commenting on his drafting - just the trades.

My hope after Pioli left for KC was that there would be a decline. I'd have to check out the timeline, but there might be a cause and effect there.

[colts_mp]

I saw one comment that Palmer could not possibly learn the Colts offense...then who could? Did the Colts and Manning make an offense that only Peyton can run? do we have receivers that can only catch PM's passes? That doesn't bode well for any receivers that ever want to try FA or get traded. If that's the case then Manning has to take alot of the blame for making us 100% dependable on HIM..that's not team playing. And he has to know better than anyone the status of his neck..as well as he's not going to play forever.

Does anyone remember when Manning was still going to start the season? then play 3rd or 4th week..and then December? It's Nov 12 now and is there any sign Manning's even remotely ready to hit the field and start training again?

If you think we would have had to mortgage our future for Palmer...how do we know since we never tried? Also...what future are we mortgaging? Our stars are getting older and become more expensive every year. Our recent draft picks have not been good enough.

[MAC]

Does anyone remember when Manning was still going to start the season? then play 3rd or 4th week..and then December? It's Nov 12 now and is there any sign Manning's even remotely ready to hit the field and start training again?

If you think we would have had to mortgage our future for Palmer...how do we know since we never tried? Also...what future are we mortgaging? Our stars are getting older and become more expensive every year. Our recent draft picks have not been good enough.

You do realize I assume that Peyton took a turn for the worse, and had a third surgery? The "Start the season" talk was before his back pain started and it became evident that his nerve wasn't regenerating. The Colts fans were probably still making that assumption at a time when the Colts were actively seeking options. The "3rd-4th week" talk was BEFORE the third surgery. From the moment of the surgery the chances of him playing this season became incredibly slim. The "december" talk was actually just referring to the earliest conceivable date that the fusion might be sufficient for him to start football activities. Some hopeful fans latched onto it, but anyone paying attention to the medical details considered it far fetched and ill advised.

"Mortgage our future" refers to trading draft picks - and Brown adamantly refused to honor Palmers trade request until the Raiders blew him a way with an offer that he couldn't refuse. Trading two number ones might be the equivalent of trading a 22 year old Dwight Freeney and a 22 year old Marvin Harrison for a 31 year old QB who at his BEST wasn't exactly an MVP candidate, has been declining for six years, and this year decided he'd rather quit than honor his contract. I consider that to be a foolish and absurdly one sided deal.

And that's ignoring the fact that it was inconceivable to fit Palmers huge contract under our cap. And it's ignoring the fact that there is no reason to believe that Palmer is any more capable of replicating Peytons performance than Collins was. If you think that people are on Polians case now, can you imagine if that adventure had been undertaken, and we still didn't make the playoffs? Then what would happen when Peyton came back? I would have been screaming at the front office myself.

[braveheartcolt]

You do realize I assume that Peyton took a turn for the worse, and had a third surgery? The "Start the season" talk was before his back pain started and it became evident that his nerve wasn't regenerating. The Colts fans were probably still making that assumption at a time when the Colts were actively seeking options. The "3rd-4th week" talk was BEFORE the third surgery. From the moment of the surgery the chances of him playing this season became incredibly slim. The "december" talk was actually just referring to the earliest conceivable date that the fusion might be sufficient for him to start football activities. Some hopeful fans latched onto it, but anyone paying attention to the medical details considered it far fetched and ill advised.

"Mortgage our future" refers to trading draft picks - and Brown adamantly refused to honor Palmers trade request until the Raiders blew him a way with an offer that he couldn't refuse. Trading two number ones might be the equivalent of trading a 22 year old Dwight Freeney and a 22 year old Marvin Harrison for a 31 year old QB who at his BEST wasn't exactly an MVP candidate, has been declining for six years, and this year decided he'd rather quit than honor his contract. I consider that to be a foolish and absurdly one sided deal.

And that's ignoring the fact that it was inconceivable to fit Palmers huge contract under our cap. And it's ignoring the fact that there is no reason to believe that Palmer is any more capable of replicating Peytons performance than Collins was. If you think that people are on Polians case now, can you imagine if that adventure had been undertaken, and we still didn't make the playoffs? Then what would happen when Peyton came back? I would have been screaming at the front office myself.

And it might also mean trading a Ugoh and a Hughes. It works both ways.

[-JJ-]

The Wes Welker trade makes me more mad...I mean the Dolphins sorta went hey New England you want a good football player? No we don't we need anything major in return he's all yours!

Hey...they got a 2nd rounder at least

[braveheartcolt]

Hey...they got a 2nd rounder at least

Sorry to go off topic, but who the heck is that on your Avatar? That's changed, it wasnt there when you were just a Pats troll....(gosh, nearly used my first smillie ever in 6 years....)