The Colts need to revert back to more basic playbook considering the situation.

[Barkman76]

I know Peyton didnt start with a playbook like this! What was the staff thinking when they put old Collins in with that playbook??? Painter is the choice without question and the Colts need to get head out of * and put two TE serts in until Painter has confident control! The Management of the Colts has infuriated me to say the least.

[Fx Stryker]

Painter knows the playbook.

[PatMcAfeeFan]

Painter is in his third year with this system he knows it. That is why Reggie has supported Painter. I hope Painter plays an amazing game tonight to prove all the haters wrong about him.

[Superman]

I know Peyton didnt start with a playbook like this! What was the staff thinking when they put old Collins in with that playbook??? Painter is the choice without question and the Colts need to get head out of * and put two TE serts in until Painter has confident control! The Management of the Colts has infuriated me to say the least.

What makes people think that 2TE sets are somehow more simple and easier to work out of than 3WR sets? I think it can go either way. There's a reason so many college coaches run a spread offense, and it's primarily because it allows the quarterback to diagnose and make reads easier. The defense has to declare their coverage more definitely than they do if they can put seven men in the box and can disguise their pressure without sacrificing position. There's a lot to be said for a 2TE-based offense, including the versatility, but I don't see how that makes it easier to run.

Another thing about the playbook. People often call the Colts offense complicated, and there are a lot of things that can make it difficult to grasp for the receivers, backs and linemen. But most of that is because the quarterback is changing things at the line, or has been for the past decade. It's not because the playbook is excessively thick. As a matter of fact, the Colts playbook has been reported as one of the thinnest in the league. Tom Moore liked to have a lean and mean gameplan that focused on execution, not guile. The Colts succeeded because the receivers ran good routes, the line protected the quarterback, and the ball was put where it was supposed to be when it was supposed to be there. Accuracy was important, and the auxiliary players had to learn a lot of hand signals and audibles, and the linemen had to know all the protection calls and dummy counts, but it's not like there's a lot of different plays to call. It also is noteworthy that Manning had the freedom to call plays that weren't in that week's gameplan, so the auxiliary players had to be ready for that as well. The bootleg/keeper against Oakland last year might have been one of those.

My point is that the quarterback did a lot of extra stuff, but that doesn't make the playbook or the gameplan difficult to grasp. I don't think Collins issue was the playbook. I think it's the fundamental nature of our offense. We don't have an offensive line that allows the quarterback to stand in the pocket and wait for his receivers to break open. We don't have receivers that create great separation from defenders. The offense was timing based, and often the quarterback is throwing to a receiver that would be able to catch the ball in a spot vacated by the defense. Rarely did Manning throw to a receiver that was wide open, only if there was a blown coverage or a blitz read. We would throw to soft spots in zone coverage up the seam, etc. Kerry Collins is used to throwing the ball to wide open receivers outside the hashes. That, coupled with his slow delivery and the way he holds the ball by his hip instead of at his chest, affected his ability to hit receivers on timing routes. That kills an offense that's almost entirely based on timing.

Anyways, I don't think we'll have that problem with Painter, whether we go 2TE or 3WR. I don't know that Painter is any more accurate that Collins, but he's shown that he is more willing to throw the ball to receivers coming out of their breaks, rather than waiting for the receiver to be open. He's more willing to throw to soft spots in zone coverage. He's more mobile and lighter on his feet. He hold the ball with two hands up near his chest, rather than with one hand down at his hip. I don't know what Curtis Painter will do this week, but he can't be any worse than Collins. I expect him to be a better fit, and I think the offense will develop a bit more rhythm with him as the starter. I hope.

[ruksak]

The danger in oversimplifying the playbook is that by the 3rd quarter the oppositions defense will have a feast on our limited scope. Flawless execution cannot overcome a defense that knows whats coming.

[Coffeedrinker]

I know Peyton didnt start with a playbook like this! What was the staff thinking when they put old Collins in with that playbook??? Painter is the choice without question and the Colts need to get head out of * and put two TE serts in until Painter has confident control! The Management of the Colts has infuriated me to say the least.

What makes you think Collins was operating with a full play book? They had ran a very scaled down version of the offense Manning ran. I think things will open up a bit more for Painter but they are still going to limit it somewhat to reduce his defensive reads and keys.

The comment about two TEs is a bit absurd because the Colts have been running more two TE sets this year than any year since they had Clark and Pollard on the team together.

[jwilli69]

What makes people think that 2TE sets are somehow more simple and easier to work out of than 3WR sets? I think it can go either way. There's a reason so many college coaches run a spread offense, and it's primarily because it allows the quarterback to diagnose and make reads easier. The defense has to declare their coverage more definitely than they do if they can put seven men in the box and can disguise their pressure without sacrificing position. There's a lot to be said for a 2TE-based offense, including the versatility, but I don't see how that makes it easier to run.

Another thing about the playbook. People often call the Colts offense complicated, and there are a lot of things that can make it difficult to grasp for the receivers, backs and linemen. But most of that is because the quarterback is changing things at the line, or has been for the past decade. It's not because the playbook is excessively thick. As a matter of fact, the Colts playbook has been reported as one of the thinnest in the league. Tom Moore liked to have a lean and mean gameplan that focused on execution, not guile. The Colts succeeded because the receivers ran good routes, the line protected the quarterback, and the ball was put where it was supposed to be when it was supposed to be there. Accuracy was important, and the auxiliary players had to learn a lot of hand signals and audibles, and the linemen had to know all the protection calls and dummy counts, but it's not like there's a lot of different plays to call. It also is noteworthy that Manning had the freedom to call plays that weren't in that week's gameplan, so the auxiliary players had to be ready for that as well. The bootleg/keeper against Oakland last year might have been one of those.

My point is that the quarterback did a lot of extra stuff, but that doesn't make the playbook or the gameplan difficult to grasp. I don't think Collins issue was the playbook. I think it's the fundamental nature of our offense. We don't have an offensive line that allows the quarterback to stand in the pocket and wait for his receivers to break open. We don't have receivers that create great separation from defenders. The offense was timing based, and often the quarterback is throwing to a receiver that would be able to catch the ball in a spot vacated by the defense. Rarely did Manning throw to a receiver that was wide open, only if there was a blown coverage or a blitz read. We would throw to soft spots in zone coverage up the seam, etc. Kerry Collins is used to throwing the ball to wide open receivers outside the hashes. That, coupled with his slow delivery and the way he holds the ball by his hip instead of at his chest, affected his ability to hit receivers on timing routes. That kills an offense that's almost entirely based on timing.

Anyways, I don't think we'll have that problem with Painter, whether we go 2TE or 3WR. I don't know that Painter is any more accurate that Collins, but he's shown that he is more willing to throw the ball to receivers coming out of their breaks, rather than waiting for the receiver to be open. He's more willing to throw to soft spots in zone coverage. He's more mobile and lighter on his feet. He hold the ball with two hands up near his chest, rather than with one hand down at his hip. I don't know what Curtis Painter will do this week, but he can't be any worse than Collins. I expect him to be a better fit, and I think the offense will develop a bit more rhythm with him as the starter. I hope.

This is what I recall them saying as well. There are trees to each play though based on where the defense is and what personel is on the field on D. So a WR has 3 options on each route and they have to know what the other guy is doing as well so would that be 6 different routes between the 2 wr's? If the cb is to the left shoulder they run this, if the right, then run that and if pressing run here. It is complicated but it's thin and if you run that perfectly between the skill guys on offense, it is really hard to defend. Marvin was one of the very best at his craft and between him and Manning, they were deadly+speed+an equal talent to catch the ball on the other side and Dallas in the middle. That was an awesome group of people to play the game and be perfect at it. We have Wayne still and Dallas but Garcon has not quite been at the Marvin level so that kinda hurts the eqaution. If mini Stokley (gonzo or Collie) could get it together with injury free games, the offense could come to life quite a bit more. The playbook is small perhaps but it is packed with complicated options and that is what takes the time to learn I believe. Painter should have that down much better than Collins though and Painter was said to have a nice deep ball too so lets just see some let her rip ball again, what is to be lost?

[Barkman76]

What makes people think that 2TE sets are somehow more simple and easier to work out of than 3WR sets? I think it can go either way. There's a reason so many college coaches run a spread offense, and it's primarily because it allows the quarterback to diagnose and make reads easier. The defense has to declare their coverage more definitely than they do if they can put seven men in the box and can disguise their pressure without sacrificing position. There's a lot to be said for a 2TE-based offense, including the versatility, but I don't see how that makes it easier to run.

Another thing about the playbook. People often call the Colts offense complicated, and there are a lot of things that can make it difficult to grasp for the receivers, backs and linemen. But most of that is because the quarterback is changing things at the line, or has been for the past decade. It's not because the playbook is excessively thick. As a matter of fact, the Colts playbook has been reported as one of the thinnest in the league. Tom Moore liked to have a lean and mean gameplan that focused on execution, not guile. The Colts succeeded because the receivers ran good routes, the line protected the quarterback, and the ball was put where it was supposed to be when it was supposed to be there. Accuracy was important, and the auxiliary players had to learn a lot of hand signals and audibles, and the linemen had to know all the protection calls and dummy counts, but it's not like there's a lot of different plays to call. It also is noteworthy that Manning had the freedom to call plays that weren't in that week's gameplan, so the auxiliary players had to be ready for that as well. The bootleg/keeper against Oakland last year might have been one of those.

My point is that the quarterback did a lot of extra stuff, but that doesn't make the playbook or the gameplan difficult to grasp. I don't think Collins issue was the playbook. I think it's the fundamental nature of our offense. We don't have an offensive line that allows the quarterback to stand in the pocket and wait for his receivers to break open. We don't have receivers that create great separation from defenders. The offense was timing based, and often the quarterback is throwing to a receiver that would be able to catch the ball in a spot vacated by the defense. Rarely did Manning throw to a receiver that was wide open, only if there was a blown coverage or a blitz read. We would throw to soft spots in zone coverage up the seam, etc. Kerry Collins is used to throwing the ball to wide open receivers outside the hashes. That, coupled with his slow delivery and the way he holds the ball by his hip instead of at his chest, affected his ability to hit receivers on timing routes. That kills an offense that's almost entirely based on timing.

Anyways, I don't think we'll have that problem with Painter, whether we go 2TE or 3WR. I don't know that Painter is any more accurate that Collins, but he's shown that he is more willing to throw the ball to receivers coming out of their breaks, rather than waiting for the receiver to be open. He's more willing to throw to soft spots in zone coverage. He's more mobile and lighter on his feet. He hold the ball with two hands up near his chest, rather than with one hand down at his hip. I don't know what Curtis Painter will do this week, but he can't be any worse than Collins. I expect him to be a better fit, and I think the offense will develop a bit more rhythm with him as the starter. I hope.

I simply know for a fact Painter being young to the NFL/starting a game would benefit from 2 TEs because of the extrat proetection. Are you going to say Collie or Garcon is going to block as good as Jacob Tamme or Brody Eldridge. I just want Painter to continue his confident play because He does not get rid of that ball as fast as #18 and he needs to have time to do some on the job learning. 2 TE sets are much simpler because the qb has extra time to throw the ball! one second makes a huge difference dont you agree.,

[Barkman76]

Yeah painter knows the playbook thats why the coaching staff needs to be fired for believing Collins coming in would make a difference. geez our staff is so dumb at times.

[jwilli69]

Yeah painter knows the playbook thats why the coaching staff needs to be fired for believing Collins coming in would make a difference. geez our staff is so dumb at times.

I am one of those people who though Collins could actually come in and do a managable type job, had an arm to open it up deep and allow the run to perhaps flourish. I also though he would lean heavy on the TE spot with Dallas but that just hasn't worked out well. I am certain the FO thinking had to be he was a vet and has seen it all and should be able to overcome while learning the playbook. Just hasn't worked out well and his oline isn't quite what he was working with in Tennessee either. Run game has been there though, it has improved.

[Superman]

I simply know for a fact Painter being young to the NFL/starting a game would benefit from 2 TEs because of the extrat proetection. Are you going to say Collie or Garcon is going to block as good as Jacob Tamme or Brody Eldridge. I just want Painter to continue his confident play because He does not get rid of that ball as fast as #18 and he needs to have time to do some on the job learning. 2 TE sets are much simpler because the qb has extra time to throw the ball! one second makes a huge difference dont you agree.,

If you think that 2TE sets necessarily mean both tight ends are staying in to pass block, then I can understand what you're saying. But a 2TE set is only fully effective if you run and pass out of it, and you will need at least one of those tight ends to be a receiving threat in order to keep the defense honest.

You can also look at it this way: If you use two tight ends, two receivers and a back, the defense can keep their base personnel on the field, and they can bring seven or even eight defenders into the box, and they can disguise their pressures and coverage more effectively because all seven or eight defenders are close to the quarterback. If you swap a tight end out for a receiver and put him in the slot, the defense needs to go to a nickel package, and they have to declare their coverage a little more definitively. There are advantages to both. I don't think there's anything simpler about 2TE sets than 3WR sets. Both have their plusses and their minuses. I think a good balance between the two is crucial to a productive offense.

Painter might benefit from extra protection, but what he'd really prefer I'm sure would be to be in the shotgun with two backs to either side of him. That gives him the best protection and allows him to see the pressure the best. But it wouldn't make sense to run every play out of that formation. And it wouldn't make sense to run every play out of a 2TE set, either, regardless of the perceived advantages. There's a reason offenses use multiple formations and multiple personnel groupings throughout the course of a game. I'm sure we'll see some 2TE sets, some 3WR sets, and more throughout this game tonight and the rest of the season. But I don't think you can say one is better than the other.

[Barkman76]

It can be fixed when painter is comfortably getting rid of the ball with that being said all the formations are good to have. Really the TE is a young qbs best friend.

[OLD FAN MAN]

it would not matter about the play if the qb has some time to throw, caldwell has been putting extra work in with the o-line this week and it should help the qb make plays