stitches
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Posts posted by stitches
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7 minutes ago, Solid84 said:
Very similar. Don't know how their game compares though?
Haven't watched him extensively but he looks similar to me in his play too...
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3 minutes ago, Solid84 said:
He's like... Dayo clone...
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4 hours ago, indyagent17 said:
This report is very damming. When players rate their owner a middle grade. that says a lot about what they think about Irsay. Secondly, way too many categories are below average. It makes you wonder what the environment is like in the players head when it comes to ignoring needs. Ballard needs to clean the stuff up.
That one is interesting because Irsay's grades last year was much better and the quotes they had on Irsay were very positive. I wonder what changed. Was it the JT's situation? Was it some promise that Irsay gave and didn't deliver on? No idea...
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Just now, csmopar said:
His impact at the time, was the best the colts had since Johnny U in his prime. It’s understandable why he’s there.
Just to be clear - I am not saying he shouldn't be in the RoH. I'm saying Luck's place in there should be no brainer.
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21 minutes ago, Superman said:
As time goes by, I think a reunion is appropriate. I was going to say "reconciliation," but I'm not sure there's any beef between Luck and the Colts, or ever has been.
I think the reason he's been distant is because he wanted to pursue a life away from being a football player, and he stayed away to do that. He took a job on the West Coast, he's doing other things, raising his family, etc. And the Colts have let him have his space, especially because the fans have been so thirsty for a replacement franchise QB, to the point that anytime he was seen in the area people wondered if it meant he was thinking about coming back. Maybe Hilton's comments about the booing are a reflection of Luck's feelings toward being in the stadium on game day, but that's not about the organization itself.
As for Ring of Honor, I've been on the fence on this, and have never really thought about it. But I just looked at the list. Jim Harbaugh was a decent player, the team had a fantastical run to the AFCCG with him, but he was here for four years and went into the ROH eight years later. Marshall Faulk, five years with the Colts, left on bad terms. Eric Dickerson, four and a half years with the Colts. Luck is just as worthy as any of them, if not more.
However, everyone after Faulk was here during the glory days, was on the team for at least a decade, and won a SB. So the bar has been set significantly higher since then.
If Luck ever does go in the ROH, it will only be after a few more years have passed.
That + QBs have a bit of a different status than any other position. Even without having watched Jim Harbaugh with the Colts, to me it's hard to imagine he had anywhere close to the impact Luck had on this team.
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I want to make one too, but I still haven't gotten into the draft much.
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2 minutes ago, Superman said:
Yeah, just simple stuff to save my thoughts on these guys before I move on. I started watching some of Byron Murphy and Jer'Zhan Newton, I'll post on them soon. I might post on Bowers, I still think he goes top ten, but oh well. Chop Robinson, Latu... I already posted on Brian Thomas. Maybe some of the corners.
Also gonna try to do a full mock next week... 😬
Like full off-season mock? Or mock draft?
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1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:
1. Was the timing of Andrew Luck's retirement bad? YES.
The timing was horrible. One of the worst times to retire... I still think people use the timing as justification for otherwise horrible way to treat Luck. And I still think no matter when he retired... people would still have felt betrayed and * off about it.
1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:2. By retiring, did he set the franchise back 5 years? YES.
Absolutely. Especially since the GM didn't get the memo initially that we need to go draft our next guy immediately/as quickly as possible. So we were stuck in limbo for a while.
1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:Having said those 2 things:
When Andrew Luck played, was he a very good QB, great at times? Yes.
Yep... I'd say he was great pretty much all the time he wasn't playing seriously hurt.
1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:Does he belong in the ROH? His stats and wins say YES.
Yep...
1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:Glad he will back in Indianapolis for this event. Chuck thanks the world of Andrew.
Chuck has said before that Luck by himself probably prolonged his HC career by a few years... For as much as I crap on him for his coaching, Chuck seems like a great man with no sense of entitlement and overall good perspective on life. I'm glad the Colts continue to support his charity and I'm glad Luck will be back in Indianapolis for it.
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2 hours ago, Superman said:
I just watched some of Jared Verse. He's a pretty good athlete, good size, adequate length, seems powerful, and he definitely passes the eyeball test as a football player. Good motor during his rushes, kind of jogs around once the ball goes away from him. He has a good first step, not super explosive, so don't be fooled by the plays where he times up the snap perfectly. He can come out of his stance too high, and then sometimes he'll be too far out over his feet, but when his leverage is right, he can go speed to power and embarrass the lineman. Good chop move, good swim, he'll spin but it's not super effective. Speaking of, he can be incredibly undisciplined with some of his moves, taking himself out of position, giving up rushing lanes, abandoning edge containment, and it happens a little too often. And it's really the lack of of discipline that bugs me throughout the game. He's also not a great tackler, kind of dives around a lot and will miss the ball carrier. He's not great in space, and he doesn't bend the edge very well... look for a mediocre three cone and shuttle.
There are also times when he looks like the most unstoppable player on the field. Watch the Florida game, or the Louisville game... sheesh. Just a wrecking ball. There are plays where he sets up a blocker and hits them with a counter, and even plays where he has to go to his second or third move to beat the blocker, and has some success. If he can refine his technique, and stabilize his attacks, he can be a pretty good DE and pass rusher. If he's disciplined, he can hold up against the run. I don't see him having a high ceiling in the NFL and being a consistent double digit sack guy, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him have a long career. Think Brandon Graham.
He probably wouldn't be my favorite pick at #15.
Are you going through the guys in that 10-20 range? Nice to read your reports. Thanks. Who's your favorite so far in our area of the draft?
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The daycare thing seems like something that shouldn't be that hard to give to the players. It's like... 2 days in a month... between August and January. Lets say 6 months, 2 home games per month. That's like... daycare for 12 days of the year. Come on! Teams should be able to give that to players. I bet there are areas of the stadium that don't get used on a game day... make a plan, make those area a multi-purpose facility... maybe daycare for those gamedays, easily transformable into something else for the rest of the time.
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It's very interesting that the grades by the players have gone down compared to last year. And some of those are on things that I doubt have gotten worse... IMO they probably just expected improvements on some of those after last year and they didn't get those improvements. I remember one of the things in their report card last year was that the players believed the owner wouldn't hesitate to spend in order to improve the conditions... well... seems like the owner didn't take note and both his grade and the grades of a lot of those low-hanging fruit type of accomodations have gone down.
Not to excuse the Colts for some of those but the team that's dead last in those report cards is... the Chiefs who have terrible grades throughout the whole card, except for HC, who they grade as the best in the league(A+)
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2 hours ago, Superman said:
Got it, so S2 has been limiting access strategically. Still, my earlier point was that multiple teams have access to the pre-draft results, whereas if a player took the test for their own team, that would seem like a favorable compromise. However, rules prohibit that, so it's not relevant.
I'm curious if Drake Maye will be retaking the test during draft season, or if S2 will make his previous results available this year. I haven't read what the CBA says about this, I'll try to find it.
I guess it depends on what his score was. Has there been any leaks about scores of this year's QBs? I haven't seen any so far...
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Good. I hope he visits some games of the team during the season... maybe get inducted into the Ring of Honor at some point. It's not great look for the franchise for both of their last big time franchise QBs to be so far away from the team post retirement.
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7 hours ago, Superman said:
Maybe it's Titans, not Texans.
Apparently, rules around when the S2 test can be administered, and to whom, are collectively bargained. So current players can't be tested, it can only be given to prospects, and only at the Senior Bowl, Shrine game, pro days, and top 30 visits. However, Drake Maye took it a year ago. Not sure if NFL teams have access to those results.
https://theathletic.com/4454725/2023/04/27/what-is-s2-cognition-testing/
As of last year, only 14 teams used it. But I don't see where only certain teams are allowed to use it. Is that the case?
Yes, I think it was their founder who said in an interview that they started with just 1 team per division and then expanded to 2 teams per division. Part of it is those teams pay for that service and they pay for exclusivity as part of the deal... the other reason I would guess is they want to be able to do some research on the usefulness of the test(i.e. how successful at drafting are teams that have it vs teams that don't... or how successful at developing talent are teams that have it vs teams that don't, etc.)
BTW, yes.. here's an article about the Titans getting the deal with S2:
https://theathletic.com/4260941/2023/02/28/tennessee-titans-nfl-draft-bryce-young/
QuoteAnd now the Titans are signed up to take full advantage of what S2 Cognition does to help evaluate prospects. Ally and Wylie initially determined they would only partner with one NFL team in each division for a total of eight. Ally said they reached out three times to the Titans between 2016 and 2018 and were told thanks but no thanks. A member of the Titans’ scouting department told them they were more interested in information on how players would be at learning a playbook.
So S2 Cognition partnered with the Colts. By the time Ally and Wylie decided to open it up to two teams per division for a total of 16, after the 2022 draft, Robinson was sold on the effectiveness of their tests. He reached out before the Texans and Jaguars did, so the Titans got the second spot (S2 Cognition is still open to another AFC East and NFC East team, by the way). The deal began in September.
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5 minutes ago, Superman said:
That's fair. Maybe my high level of skepticism about S2 influenced my view of the prevailing opinions at the time. But I didn't think teams were being swayed by Stroud's scores. I felt like it was a major topic of conversation, but I did not and still don't think teams downgraded Stroud because of the S2 scores. I think Houston uses S2 also, right?
Don't quote me on that but for some reason I think they don't have access to the S2. I think it was just the Colts and Titans from our division.
5 minutes ago, Superman said:The part about Stroud not trying is interesting. I'm still not sure that we got the full story on that.
Ultimately, Stroud still went #2, which is basically what everyone expected all through draft season, so I don't think the S2 controversy wound up having any tangible impact. Maybe it was an important factor for the Panthers -- and if it tipped the decision for them, yikes -- but lots of people expected Bryce Young to go #1 all along.
If Stroud had dropped out of the top ten, then maybe I'd see it differently. We'd need to talk about how the best QB in the draft was allowed to fall so dramatically. As it stands, he didn't really drop at all.
I know there's some sarcasm with the bolded, but I just want to establish that Bryce Young didn't go at the top of the draft just because he apparently did well on the S2. He was considered a top draft prospect a year before he came out. There's a lot to like about him, he just has some flaws that I think could be insurmountable in the NFL.
It wasn't meant to be as heavily sarcastic as it reads. I meant it more as an at-face-value descriptor. But yah, he was considered top prospect for years before the draft. And if he was bigger and faster, maybe his processing would have had better chance to shine. I just didn't see him succeeding on a physical and athletic level in the league.
5 minutes ago, Superman said:To me, the S2 is probably more valuable than the Wonderlic, but this kind of testing has always had limited value for NFL prospects. Not zero value, but very limited. Just throwing numbers around, if the Wonderlic was 1% of the pie, maybe S2 is 2%? Double the importance, but still one of the least important factors in the evaluation. And if you watch a QB display mastery of passing concepts for two years in college, and then a cognition test calls into question his mental acuity, and you can't decide whether the the tape or the test has greater value, then you're in the wrong line of work.
Agreed.
5 minutes ago, Superman said:I've discounted the value of the Georgia game for Stroud, because people tried to use it as an example of his ability to scramble and run, and I don't think that's a great takeaway from that game. But watch him break the pocket, scan the field, point out the open spot in the end zone, and then throw a dime to MHJ for a TD... and then tell me you have questions about his ability to process and read defenses in real time. Come on.
Agreed. That Georgia game really had me spinning in my thoughts. I had no idea how to evaluate what I was seeing compared to the rest of his tape. And I taught me a bit of a lesson - don't discount things you see from top prospects at the biggest stage against the best competition.
5 minutes ago, Superman said:I get it, but now we're in the territory of full on paranoia. If a QB gets drafted in the first round, and plays well, his team is going to break the bank to keep him. They aren't going to pull out his S2 tests from three years ago and say 'we don't know, maybe we'll draft a 90th percentile S2 guy to replace you...'
And compared to the way it's been done so far, all 32 teams have access to the S2 scores (no surprise that so-called confidential info got leaked, and that's why I tend to think it was a team trying to gain trade leverage, and not anyone connected to S2). So just taking the test for the team that drafted you seems like a favorable compromise.
I think only about half of the teams get the S2 scores and this is by design.
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2 hours ago, Superman said:
I read something that said the leaked scores were only partial. And now that I'm thinking about it more, I think they were saying the low score that was published was from his first attempt, and he might have retaken the test and done better. It's kind of fuzzy, but that might be the case.
Either way, my point was that I remember notable pushback against the leaked scores, and their importance. So if certain people are now saying that they didn't care about the S2 scores a year ago, that doesn't sound like revisionist history to me. One of those unnamed execs could be Ballard, who was very vocal about not liking how Stroud was talked about. And we know the Colts subscribe to S2...
Huge part of the pushback came from the people who do the test themselves. They were doing damage control after supposedly confidential information was leaked to the public and in this case one of the highest profile players in the draft was affected by it. At the time the prevailing sentiment seemed to be that teams actually value that test highly, especially the teams that actually have access to it. IMO it's very convenient and self serving to only come out with skepticism about it after the highest profile prospect in the draft exceeded expectations. And BTW I love that Ballard took that stand and I hated how Stroud was being treated too. But that's different from trying to rewrite history about Strouds results and trying to come with post hoc rationalizations about how he didn't really put effort into the test. And yes, the reports I saw actually said that he took the test multiple times and his scores didn't improve.
2 hours ago, Superman said:Some suggestions... basically unsubstantiated rumors that get repeated enough that they begin to be accepted as fact. Who knows what the Panthers were doing last year, but if they let the S2 test decide which QB to draft, they deserve all the dysfunction they've experienced. I don't think even the Panthers are that lost. More likely, Bryce Young was the guy they decided on, and maybe the higher S2 was in his favor, but would have just been one of several factors that they used.
We will never really know for sure what happened with the Panthers and what part of their evaluation was the S2 score, but we know their owner is big fan of new age metrics and analytics and we know Bryce had one of the highest scores ever while Stroud had one of the lowest scores ever from top prospects. If I had to guess that score had some impact on their decision.
2 hours ago, Superman said:The way it's described, there's potentially value in the S2 testing. But using Stroud as the example, if you watch him play, and then look at a low S2 score, and can't figure out how to reconcile the disparity between the tape and the test score, then you don't know how to evaluate. Overall, I think way too much is being made of the S2 thing, similar to how way too much was made of Wonderlic scores. It's just one piece of info, and probably carries a small amount of importance overall.
It's hard for me to decide if too much or too little is being made of the score. I guess by some people - too little and by others too much. For example, even though I think this test probably has some utility, I still had Stroud as my QB2 in same tier with AR and I had the S2 superstar Bryce Young as my 4th QB... So I think I very much agree with you that it should be just a small piece of the overall evaluation. But at the same time I think it should probably has higher weight than the Wonderlic scores. Where does that put me? I don't know...I guess somewhere in the middle.
2 hours ago, Superman said:But if a team wants to use S2 testing to prepare a development plan, especially for a QB, there's no real reason they can't have him take the test after the draft. If that's really part of the value, and the player declines the test before the draft because he doesn't want to be scrutinized over it, then ask him to take it once you've drafted him.
Yes, but players might not want anybody to have that information including their own team, because even seemingly irrelevant information might be used against them in the future - for example in contract negotiations... Or in case they change their team and now their rival has information about their weakest and strongest processing sides. Those are just a few examples that came to my mind.
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5 minutes ago, Superman said:
I don't think I agree that it's revisionist. Last year, some scores leaked, and then Stroud's scores got aggregated and the story was sensationalized. But all along, there was pushback about the scores -- were they accurate, was there missing context, was there an incomplete leak designed to make people discount Stroud, was someone trying to gain leverage for a trade, etc. There was skepticism from reputable people, and even though it was noted that many teams value the S2 test, I don't think anyone ever expected or predicted that Stroud's draft stock was significantly affected by whatever his score was.
It's very telling that nobody actually came out and said that Stroud's published test score was inaccurate. Yes there was pushback about the scores, but they all were very general and non-specific. "I've seen published scores that aren't correct", "Those scores miss a lot of context", etc.
And especially when Stroud himself was asked about those scores. Do you remember what his answer was? He didn't dispute any of it. He just said he's not a test-taker, he's a football player.
5 minutes ago, Superman said:I don't remember reading that he took the test multiple times. That's an interesting variable, if it's true.
I think several big time reporters/analysts reported it. I think I first heard it from Zierlein. But can't find the original. Here's Pelissero reporting on it too:
https://www.nfl.com/news/2023-nfl-draft-pro-execs-scouts-coaches-rank-and-evaluate-the-qb-class
QuoteThe Buckeyes lost just four of Stroud’s 25 starts, though two of those defeats came against rival Michigan. Stroud took the S2 Cognition test multiple times and posted low scores, but coaches who have watched the tape and put Stroud on the board were impressed with his processing ability.
5 minutes ago, Superman said:There can be value in the test, but like with any other piece of information, how do you apply what's learned to your evaluation process? Like you said, there's a lot of work to figure out how this testing correlates to a player's ability to perform in the NFL, same as with any other datapoint. I don't know if it should be dismissed, but I don't think any team is letting S2 scores rule over their scouting process. Not even for QBs.
There have been some suggestions that the Panthers took Bryce Young over Stroud partially because of the S2 test, because they valued it highly.
5 minutes ago, Superman said:I haven't heard that any QBs are refusing to take the test, but I have read that agents are recommending that they don't. I think that's alarmist; Stroud went #2, which is basically what most people expected. Is it established that the scores hurt him? I'd say they did not. But I might not want a player I represent to be subjected to the media/Internet scrutiny, especially since it's clear that players pay attention to what's being said about them, and sometimes react to it.
Yeah, I don't remember if it was reported as players refusing it or their agents not allowing them to take it, but this is what one of the podcasts I listen to reported. Not 100% sure which one it is because I consume a lot of those draft podcasts.
5 minutes ago, Superman said:To the bolded, if a team wants to use S2 results for planning, why can't they draft their QB, and then ask him to take the test? Now there's no pressure, he can test under controlled circumstances, and the team can use the data to help develop their player.
They probably can... not sure if the players would do it. But if the teams knew it in advance they might have better idea of whether development in certain areas is even possible.
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To me all this sounds like revisionist history. There were TONS of reports at the time about how much teams valued the S2 test, how some execs were worried about his S2 scores... how he took it MULTIPLE TIMES in attempt to get better score(very far from the assumption that he didn't give full effort).
It's OK if a test doesn't 100% predict performance. It's on those GMs and execs that they put so much weight on it. At the end of the day Stroud is just another datapoint in the dataset of 1000s players that took that test. And the discrepancy between his score and his performance might help further improve the correlation matrix. Maybe the certainty last year wasn't warranted and from now on teams and execs will read more carefully into what that test is saying and what it isn't saying and how much they should value it.
My guess is... the pendulum might swing the other way too much(into completely devaluing the test).
BTW I heard on a podcast that this year's QBs have been refusing to take the test precisely because of how Stroud was treated last year and teams are now * off because that test is not only used for evaluation purposes, but also for planning of future development.
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Ever since that LSU championship team, I kind of have been a fan of the reverse theory - when you have another dominant receiver on your team, it's even more impressive if you manage to stack up such insane production. Chase and Jefferson were amazing together and at the time everybody thought Jefferson is benefiting from Chase, but the reality is... there is only one ball. And if it goes to one player at disproportionately high volume, commanding huge portion of the remaining volume is actually a huge positive. It shows that even if you are not the 1st option on this particular team, you are able to accumulate big numbers and there is possibly some hidden potential to be a no. 1 receiver. Kind of like Jefferson has been able to prove in the league. Kind of like Olave has been able to do, too.
Big production at high level, combined with high level traits is like catnip for me, when we talk about receivers, and the presence of another big time receiver on the team is not really something that will dissuade me from selecting that player. If anything, I feel like there is some unexplored value there.
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This is the highest I've seen Chop Robinson BTW.
Cooper Dejean has been receiving lower rankings by numerous national media analysts... I kind of expected him to be top 15-20 pick... but from what I'm seeing by those evaluators... it looks more like he would be lucky to get picked in the 1st...
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7 minutes ago, chad72 said:
Here it is:
https://www.nfl.com/combine/tracker/participants/
What position groups are you watching for the immediate future and for a few years down the road for the Colts? (Or other teams)
@stitches @Solid84 @MikeCurtis @indyman411 @Ohio Colt @Archer @NFLfan @VikingsFanInChennai @2006Coltsbestever
Thoughts??
The lenght measurements of CBs, LBs... EDGE like always are interesting knowing how much Ballard values them. And in general, we already know that Ballard likes his RAS all-stars...
More specifically, I guess I would like to see how Brock Bowers measures(he looks small to me). I'd like to see the CBs in the 1st round too...
I want to see Latu's athletic numbers, because I don't see him as a particularly athletic player.
4 minutes ago, chad72 said:Austin Booker and Cooper Beebe, both ranked like Round 1 prospects, surprised me a bit. Both from the former Big 12.
This is Lance Zierlein's rankings if I'm not mistaken.
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3 hours ago, chad72 said:
I do think we need to take into consideration what kind of routes they were asked to run and it’s sometimes hard to compare someone running deeper routes most of the time to someone running underneath most of the time.I do wonder if there’s an average yards per target metric available for college WRs.
There are yards per reception stats. Not sure if there are yards per target.
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25 minutes ago, Superman said:
Tackling is not his strongest trait, but in the little I've seen I wouldn't call him deficient as a tackler.
Also, it's hard not to like his effort. Just watch these clips from the NC game: https://clemsonwire.usatoday.com/lists/social-media-reacts-nate-wiggins-makes-an-incredible-effort-play-to-stop-a-north-carolina-touchdown/
For whatever it's worth Wiggins' run defense grade by PFF is 65, which is the lowest run defense grade for any of their top 10 corners.
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16 minutes ago, Superman said:
Put him in the wrong situation, and just from a football standpoint, it might not go well. I have my doubts about the Bears being the right situation for any young QB, especially since Eberflus is probably on the hot seat. I don't know enough about their OC to have an opinion on whether he can create a good environment for a rookie QB, not to mention one who is both as dynamic and combustible as Caleb Williams can be. Put him in the right situation, and I think the sky's the limit.
Did you hear what JSN said about Waldron? It's kind of hilarious...
NFL Combine 2024
in NFL Draft, Scouting, and Free Agent Talk
Posted
Fiske is very intriguing.