bluebombers87

If a doctor says smoking is bad for your health and I point to that as a reason one shouldn’t smoke, the argument isn’t that I pointed to them but whether or not we agree of the doctor is a source of reliable information. The appeal to authority here are players, who have spent years playing this very game, stating it was a bad call to make. They are much more knowledgeable than you or I. Do you dispute their football knowledge? If no, then we need to agree that they have knowledge in this area. And for the record, it’s not just these three that have stated it was a bad call. Per the rule, hand fighting is allowed if the receiver initiates contact, which is what happened. And again, I’m not arguing the game. Only the feasibility of one official impacting a game. We don’t know what was discussed in that ref conference. Maybe they all agreed, maybe only one stated. As a side note, when challenges to PI were allowed, how many were overturned? The answer is a stunningly small number. Do you think the refs were correct in every one of their reviews? Why, or why not?

How would they come undone? You say those calls would be noticeable, why do you say that? Two or three calls a game in two games? Over the dozens made in the course of a season? Especially when holding and some level of PI happens on a huge number of plays? From what I’ve seen, game assignments are the only repercussions. The Ref Union may not allow some back but again, that would require it to be noticed and identified. Do companies act in bad faith to hide events that would impact their business? Yes. Is the NFL a business? Yes. You say it’s impossible because someone would blow the whistle. Maybe, maybe not. But the answer to those questions being yes means it is possible. It’s the level of probability that is in doubt. Calling it X Y or Z doesn’t change its level of feasibility.

The man played in the NFL. AJ Hawk and Darius Butler also agreed. They all have significantly more knowledge than anyone on this message board. Im not arguing this game. Only the feasibility of corruption from an NFL official. This game can serve as an example of one actor impacting the outcome of a game. I’m not saying this actor in this situation WANTED to do so, only that they did with no oversight or anyone stopping them.

Donaghy is the one who reported the 30k per the article. With the advent of online gambling, it is now easier than ever to place bets and to do so with a high level of anonymity. The use of a VPN and public Wi-Fi would make it almost impossible for an investigator to pin point who is making the bets. Throw in burner emails and banking accounts and there you have it. That’s not even to include the much simpler process of the ref working with one other individual which would make it even harder to prove. The majority of calls, again like holding, PI (pass catchable/uncatchable) are still primarily driven by the on site refs. One or two calls throughout a game, with a small number of games per year would be very hard to pin point a trend. The fact they’ve not gone to full time refs with meaningful accountability or consequences is abhorrent to a business that generates the level of money they do. You give the NFL much more credit than I do. Companies bury things like this frequently. To say that it would come out as a certainty is assuming a whistleblower would come forward. But the league could easily squash this by not fully investigating and/or throwing money to make it go away. This is admittedly (and to your point) the tin foil hat territory but is not impossible for it to happen. It assumes all crimes are always discovered. Hush money is a thing that is real. And your last paragraph only helps to support my statement of if it is one ref who is even remotely sensible acting in this way, how would the league even know? The FBI only discovered Donaghy by accident. Had they not been investigating organized crime, they wouldn’t have stumbled across Donaghy.

To the penalties, with all due respect, I’ll defer to Pat McAfee who believes the Colts were “bamboozled” by those calls. Now you’re attributing me saying that I believe the ref(s) we’re trying to influence the outcome of that particular game. Think bigger picture. I believe this could be an example however. This is founded by the fact that it happened in the first place. Holding penalties are easy but by no means the only judgement calls allowed by officials.

No only because intent is incredibly difficult to prove without a confession or statement. But it is evidence to show it CAN happen.

Appreciate the conciliatory approach. I’ll attempt the same. I understand the idea that with the size and scope of the NFL it would seem difficult to get away with something. However, you have to look at it from the viewpoint that if it only involves one person, how would anyone know? If one ref, placed $1k on each betting site on one team not covering the spread (using aliases and VPNs), and only did it 2-3 times a year, that ref could in theory earn tens of thousands of dollars at minimum with only themself knowing. One holding call at the right time could kill a drive. And with holds going on so often, they’d be correct in calling it which would also keep the other refs from jumping in. You’re asking for evidence of it happening, which I understand but that’s not the conversation we’re having. I’m explaining whether or not it is even possible for one ref to determine the outcome of a game. If this can be proven to be true, without an undue amount of people involved, then it stands to reason that it would be possible for that one person to become corrupt and start exploiting this. I get that you were saying that the spread example doesn’t apply to this game, but that was never my intention. I used it as an example to illustrate how it could happen. The answers may seem abstract, but that’s because it is the nature of the discussion. It comes off as dismissive asking for evidence in a conversation about hypotheticals. I’ve provided an example (see the example above in this post about the spread) to show you how it could happen. 1) I appreciate the clarification on corruption and human nature. This turns the conversation to the topic of how it would or could happen if a ref decided to become corrupt. 2) The source you provided was from Donaghy himself and was called into question in the next paragraph by one of the prosecutors. Even taking Donaghy at his word, he said he wasn’t in it to make money. He viewed it as a game within a game. Regardless, the dollar amount is immaterial to the conversation of whether or not it is possible. He showed it is possible in a very public position and in the NBA. 3) That was never my belief. This would require proof. However you can look at players that get a lot of press and compare that to the calls they get and go from there as a reason people feel this way. 4) Donaghy admitted to betting on games for 7 seasons while he officiated. And to the rest, I would ask that if the NFL became aware of such a scandal, with such a risk to their business, would they even report it? They could remove the offender in house and move on. And to the rest, the NFL has invited all of these doubts by their unwillingness to adjust for issues that have continued to exist for years now. Add in the HUGE impact online gambling has had in the past decade, you know have motive, means, and opportunity. Those are the base requirements for a crime.

I find it interesting that Pat McAfee stated there needs to be an investigation into these refs, which is exactly the point that is being made by those on here. I would think everyone would welcome that as it will at the very least increase transparency on a topic.

If you’re referring to the karma statement I apologized. It was to another poster but since it wasn’t directly responding to you I’ll do it again and offer my apology. It was a misread on my part. Not sure how I can be viewed as hostile when I offered an apology on a previous post. You specifically misconstrued my point about the spread, which I very clearly stated was an example. This is gaslighting. You have on multiple occasions stated your disbelief that anyone can have any dissenting opinion on this topic, which is both belittling and condescending. Again, at the end of the day you believe it to be not possible for a ref to influence a game or do it and not be caught. I have disagreed and stated it is possible.

Karma does not exist by all available evidence. So why entertain that even in question? Regardless I don’t want this to derail the points I made afterwards so I’ll concede and apologize.

Good article and good from a less biased source than us fans. Something has to change. This is why I get annoyed that players and coaches aren’t speaking up more. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Irrelevant. You asked why this wasn’t karma. I’m asking why you think karma even exists as a possibility when the idea of humans being corrupt is impossible to you.

The spread piece was an example and you know it. Thank you for admitting this type of scenario is indeed possible. Its naive to think that just because a crime hasn’t been discovered it isn’t happening. Plenty of crime out in the world that hasn’t been discovered. Doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Ultimately you are saying this type of situation cannot happen. I’m saying it is entirely possible. I’m not saying I think this is what happened with the colts this past Sunday, just that it is possible.

It happened in the NBA. It happened in the MLB. Just because they haven’t been caught is not evidence of it not happening at all. It’s a very naive take. It would be very easy for a ref to call a hold and end a teams drive to cover the spread for example. Incredibly easy in fact. They have someone like a spouse or sibling make the bet and poof. There you have it.

Probably the part where you specifically said karma

They sure do. And he makes a lot of money (assuming Irsay wouldn’t under the table pay him back for it). And what better way to highlight the problems with the refs than to show they would be petty for doing so?

And new for the 2032 Olympics, Heads or Tails!

Technically it’s holding that is taking place outside of the accepted area (between the shoulder pads) so yea it should’ve been a penalty.

So wait, the idea of money corrupting someone to intentionally manipulate a football game is ludicrous, but a cosmic force that balances out misfortune is an acceptable explanation?

Or that one ref can make a call and have it not challenged by the other members of the group. There were other refs in the NBA who didn’t stop it or allowed it to happen. There were others who allowed to happen in the MLB. How many times have we seen the head official accept what one other person saw as the truth and move forward with it?

They didn’t yesterday did they?

If it’s just one person… I know I wouldn’t rat myself out.

The purpose is money, as always. You’re thinking too big. Individual refs can influence a game, cover or blow a spread, etc. Would be nothing for that individual to be influenced or to strike out on their own.

He had an opportunity to bring a league wide issue into the spotlight and potentially force the league to respond. He didn’t. And maybe I am and maybe I’m not. Doesn’t have anything to do with anything.