Flash7
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25 of 48
327 yards
2TDs 2 INT's
3 Rushes 24 Yards
31-24 Lions
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Welcome to the board, we're glad to have you! And, I really am not Anti-RGIII, but I gotta call 'em as I see 'em.First off...new guy here... *waves*
But I just wanted to comment on this based from an unbiased perspective. Looking at both play, yes, they have different offensive styles but it's kind of unfair to attempt to discredit one while raising up another. No one questions New England's pass attack, with Welker usually leading the league in completions. That being said, if you think Griffin dink and dunks all game, you haven't seen a Redskins game. His YPA can be attributed to his YAC, which shows that a QB puts the ball in the best place for a receiver to make a play.
Also, Alex Smith and Griffin's stats aren't similar. Smith has around 100 less passes, 700 less yards, 3 less touchdowns, and 1 more interception.
Honestly, I just can't wait for everyone to see Luck and Griffin as great QBs and leave it as that. They both are performing above what many thought that they would, regardless of systems and deficiencies.
Regardng the comparison between Alex Smith and RGIII, you have to go back two weeks and compare their stats at that time. Alex Smith has not played the last two weeks due to the concussion he's sustained. You'll find that they are very similar and Smith's might actually be superior up until that point.
Secondly, many RGIII supporters will state YAC as a baramoeter of how accurate RGIII is. In reality, RGIII's YAC is a function of the design of the play. Many of his YAC comes from screen passes behid the line of scrimmage to a receiver or RB, or quick slant patters off of a quick play-action fake. They are designed to generate YAC by putting the ball in the "play maker's hands" with quick and safe passes. As for his YPA-- he does throw very deep. That causes his average to go up, but he does not consistantly throw deep and intermediate routes. And Lasty, I've watched every game RGIII has played on NFL Rewind, so I'm trying my best to use numbers and informed opinions to discuss RGIII. It makes for far much better discussion.
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RGIII's and Luck's games are nothing alike. That's what makes this such an interesting discussion.
RGIII fans will ask you to look at his completion percentage and QB rating, and in fact, they are better than Luck's. But that doesn't tell you the whole story. What if I told you that there is a QB in the league right now with a 70% completion percentage and a QB rating of 104% with numbers similar to RGIII's. You might think, Rogers? Manning? Brady? No, it's Alex Smith, a guy, much like RGIII who plays in a "Safe" dink and dunk offense. Both RGIII and Alex Smith have similar numbers. Before Alex Smith went out with a concussion, they nearly the same amount of downfield throws in which both are ranked at the bottom of the league.
It's easy to have a high completion percentage when your passes don't travel too far in the air, as evidenced by both Alex Smith and RGIII. Occasionally, RGIII will air it out for a very deep pass, helping his YPA, but overall, he's a lot like Alex Smith-- a dink and dunker. Sorry but no one thinks that Alex Smith is a gun slinger. His stats and RGIII's are very similar.
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A) Defenses will eventually catch up with the scheme and learn how to defend against it, thus the reason for so many offenses changing and adapting all of the time in the NFL.3) Why would they need to change their offense? If they can run it to perfection defenses will continually have trouble with it.
B) RGIII cannot sustain these types of hits for several more years. He's already had a concussion from running with the ball this year, confirming what most people feared about his style of play and the style of offense.
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Yes, Manning and Brady have about 45%-50%-ish YAC, however, they've already thrown for over 3,260-3300 yards, while RGIII has thrown for about 2500.Isn't manning over 40% as well? I think a few QB's are up there
So it indicates that they are getting YAC, but not living off of the short passes. They do have more attempts however.
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Here is a neutral third party's analysis on RGIII's passing from an article that I found online. Here's a small portion of the article:He is though 2nd in yards per attempt vs Luck who is 18th. So he is not really just focusing on the short passing game.
RGIII is already one of the best deep-ball passers in the NFL. Averaging 16.7 yards per deep passing attempt, RGIII has thrown a touchdown on one-fifth of all of his attempts of 20 or more yards. Nonetheless, the Redskins haven’t thrown deep often this season; Griffin has fewer deep passing attempts than all but one NFL starter (Alex Smith). As a comparison, Joe Flacco has thrown deep exactly three times as often as RGIII this year.
0: Number of quarterbacks who have thrown more play-action passes than Griffin.
Because of the offensive system the Redskins run, they often show play-action on their passing attempts. Read-option plays are the foundation of much of what they do, and the Redskins have plays that contain run-pass options after the play has begun, i.e. Griffin can hand off the ball, keep it himself, or throw it. Of Griffin’s 334 dropbacks, 123 have been play-action, 36.8 percent. In comparison, Romo is last in the NFL in play-action rate at 8.3 percent and the difference between him and the next quarterback, Kevin Kolb, is larger than the difference between Kolb and the next 17 quarterbacks.
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I meant that nearly 50% ( 48%) of RGIII's passing yards are comprised of YAC, . The 60% was a typo and After I caught it, I coulnd't go back and change it..
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It's good to have a well thought out in-depth reply. Understandably, you are a Redskins fan and you see what I amy not see, while I am a Colts fan and I too see things differently than you. It's definitely hard to be completely objective when discussing your favorite team, but I can see that you are being objective. Thank you for that.
As you have mentioned, Griffen's play has outshined the play of the WRs, as it should. In my opinion, the Play of Manning, Brady, Rogers outshines the play of their receivers, despite having really good receivers. The QB position is the premier position in football and Griffen is doing a fantastic job.
Regarding the type of offense that the Redskins run, regardless of the name of the offense, the offense is still predicated on quick reads in both the run game and the passing game. There are some pro style aspects to the offense, but for the majority, without the option read, it would not operate the same or as effectively. The play action when in a single back set has not been effective at all. It's been deadly in the pistol or read option offense. The games where the read option was not effective, the Redskins and RGIII especially were not effective. Those games could be classified as their worste games--the Panthers game comes to mind.
I think that you agreed with me that the Redskins use the Pistol or read option offense because of RGIII's 4.3 speed. This would indicate that they chose this offense because of, among other things, his running ability, coupled with his familiarity with this offense from college. It's good that the coaching staff could put together a gameplan to suit RGIIIs attributes, but I still contend that it will not be a sustainable offense for the long term. RG3 cannot sustain NFL hits for years and years. The offense will have to change, either by choice or by necessity.
To your point about it being unfair to attribute RG3's completion percentage to the distance of his throws and that he's still accurate with deeper throws: 25% of RG3's passes are behind the LOS. Nearly 46% of his passes are less than 10-yards past the LOS. It's a statistical fact that deeper passes have an inverse relationship to accuracy. In essence, the deeper the throw, the less accurate ANY QB is.
The YAC aspect of the offense is not overstated in this case, and I mean this objectively and not in an argumentative way. As you've mentioned, the Redskins are ranked 19th in the league in receiveing yards and 19th in YAC. This indicates to me that RGIII has one of the highest completion percentages in the league, yet the Redskins rank 19th in receivng yards-- indicates (short passes). To compound that, the Redskins are ranked 19th in the league in YAC, yet nearly 60% of RGIII's yards are comprised of YAC. This further indicates that RGIII does not throw the ball downfield nearly as much as he is given credit for. This would indicate a dink and dunk style of passing attack, which is what you will mainly hear when a discussion of RGIII is brought up. The numbers, as discussed, would back up this arguement.
You and I will have to respectfully agree to disagree when looking at RGIII's third down stats. I see a QB that when asked to drop back, without a play action, and read a defense and deliver a catchable ball, has struggled to do so. Their may have been drops, but we're so far into the season that it would have to be a wild coincidence for untimely drops to have such a big effect on his third down conversion percentage.
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I wrote third down completion percentage, but I was refering to third down conversion percentage. But is speaks to the same concern.Thanks. These are all valid points/ concerns. The 3rd completion percentage is interesting. That is pretty low and I am not sure the exact reason.
Do you think there is a chance that the spread read option offense will become more prevalent as time goes on? I think it may.
Great reply and certainly some things to analyze/ think about
I do not think that the spread read option will become more prevalent for the Redskins primarily because of the toll that it may have on RGIII. If you consider that Tebow at 240 lbs ran the ball in a similar read option offense quite a bit last year and ended his season with broken ribs in the playoffs. I do not think it's sustainable for a long period of time.
I'm not sure if you have NFL rewind. If you do, watch the condensed version of 3 Redskins games and then immediately watch the condensed verion of 3 Colts games. You will see a difference in styles of offense and styles of QBplay. It's really shocking how different and not as evident without watching back-to-back.
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He quit on the Eagles because of their recent losing ways. What's he going to do with Jacksonville, retire?
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Chris, welcome to the board.Hi all,
Skins fan here. I was hoping they landed luck but couldn't be happier with RG3's progress so far.
Just curious how you all view his play so far. Good luck the rest of the season.
I think that RGIII has played really well so far. He has made some really nice throws and has, as everyone knows, had some electrifying runs. He has handled everything asked of him masterfully and he seems to have a good head on his shoulders. He's a mart kid and is definitely a QB with the caliber to lead a team.
I do have some concerns however. Watching the Colts and Redskins with great interest in the two rookie QBs, it's clear that their games are drastically different. For the sake of discussion, I will number out my points so that it becomes easier to address each point. Please also note that I do not intend unfair critisism, and I hope that it does not come across in that manner.
1. Will the Redskins continue to use the spread-read option offense three years from now, and ask RGIII to run the ball as much as they have this year?
I think that the offense will change over time as defenses will have more tape on it and will have a gameplan to stop the read option. In addition, RGIII simply cannot run the ball nearly as much as he has this year. He already has had a concussion. The threat of injury is too much for Shanahan to continue with this offense. Would you agree with this?
2. There has to be a reason why the Redskins use the spread-read option offense. Of course it has to do with RGIII and his comfort in this style of offense. This style of offense is predicated on quick reads and reactions in the run game, which has been very successful. Alfred Morris is also doing a great job running the ball. In the passing game, the play-action plays a big part, mainly to freeze defenses and allow for the quarterback to make quick reads and quick throws. This too has worked very well, and in my opinion, due to the threat of RGIII's running ability, has been especially effective. But it has led to may short throws, nearly 25% behind the LOS and even more within 10-yards of the LOS. This would explain the YAC yards that RGIII has gained. Many will tell you that he has a lot of YAC because of perfect ball placement to receivers in stride, but in reality, that plays a smaller role than the actual design of the play. A screen play is designed to get the ball into the hands of the "playmakers" as are quick slants. These plays are a staple of the Redskins offense and accounts for most of the YAC yards attributed to RGIII. It also helps to explains the high completion percentage, one of the highest, if not the highest of any rookie QB.
3. If you agreed that the offense will eventually have to change because opposing defenses may catch on to the read-option offense and RGIII cannot continue to run the ball in this type of offense, then you wuld have to think that the offense will eventually ask for RGIII to make different types of throws. The play action that he's currently using will not be effective without the read option. The receivers will be asked to run different routes. Is this hindering his development? If they don't change their offense, will it continue to be as successful?
4. Lasty, another item of concern is RGIII's third down completion percentage. It's at 34%, and in comparison, Luck's is at 46%. As you know, third downs are very crucial. Depending on the distance, most teams will know if an offense will pass or run. On third down passing plays, RGIII has not been successful, especially when asked to throw more than 5+ yards for the first down. Again, in comparison, Luck is the league leader on third down and 10+ yards needed for the first and among the highest in overall third down passing efficiency. This demonstrates to me that Luck has gained the necessary skills to fully read a defense and make throws under pressure. RGIII up until this point has not successfully demonstrated this on a consistant basis. Now if the Redskins offense were to eventually change, and they ask RGIII to make these types of throws, downfield, more consistantly, would he be as sucessful?
I think he has shown the abilityto learn. I do not see why he cannot learn to be successful in a new offense, but I would slate Luck ahead of him in this regard. RGIII has great stats, but I feel that they are not sustainable for long-term success, and if that's the case, then what's the point?
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You are right, but my point is that the Lions aren't as bad as some may think. They've had a really difficult schedule. Let me get a little "football nerdy" here and fully explain.if I recall right we play/played all those teams except the 49ers plus we have the Texans twice
I get that every team in the NFL is a tough out, and that you have to fully prepare for every team and every game. However, when facing teams like the Niners, Texans, Bears, Packers and the Vikings twice, who are all good teams, you have to have extra focus. Even teams that they have beaten, the Titans, the Rams, the jags and the Seahaws are tough teams. (Jags not so much, but Seahawks are a tough defensive team). A tough schedule takes a toll mentally and especially physically. We should know all too well the effect of having injuries. This is more likely to happen against stout defenses. The Lions have faced most of theleagues toughest defenses and have a losing record. This isn't surprising, however, we are not among the leagues top defenses and that's my reason for concern.
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I like those stats!The 2 stats that jump out at me are 7-4 and 4-7.
But to be fair, the Lions have lost tough games to the Niners, Packers, Texans, Bears, and Vikings. Those are not easy games to win, and it's possible that if we had their schedule, we may have a similar record.
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I read somewhere that Zibby may be having issues with his shin? Seriusly though, that's what I read. His shin.I am trying to figure out why Safety?
Is Bethea or Zibby hurt?
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Stanford, the Eagles, and the Steelers seem to be our farm system....lol.Just have a Big Ol' Stanford Reunion huh?
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He's also from Stanford. I was thinking that we'd start to target Stanford's defense (especially their LBs) in the next draft, seeing as we've already drafted their offense this year.
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This makes sense considering the Lions have the #2 overall offense, compared to the Colts at #5. Their overall defense is ranked 13th in the league while the Colts are at 20.
So they have a better performing offense and a better performing defense. We will have to play a heck of a game to win. Of course stats don't tell the whole story, and that's why we play the games.
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I guess we can just pretend that he's our second round draft pick next year.
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It's very risky. Since we have been using this screen pass frequently, I've noticed that the DBs cheat up a little when we're in a bunch formation. They're expecting this play and the receiver may not have enough time to get the ball back to Luck.
It's funny that you mentioned this play because I was thinking of something similar. We have been using the screen pass frequently and it would be great to have Reggie pretend to be the recipient of this type of pass, while the blocking receivers pretend to block, and one of them releases upfield. Luck can fake the pass to Reggie who's behind the LOS and then take a shot deep to the receiver running down the sideline.
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The Lions are a passing team. They rank first in the NFL in pass yards per game and 24th in rushing. We faced the Patriots high powered passing attack and didn't fair well. However, the Lion's passing attack is different. It's not as efficient as the Patriot's offense. They like to take deep shots and can get themselves in trouble with down and distance quite frequently.
Their defense is ranked #14 in total yards allowed, while ours is ranked #20. So in essence, they have a higher ranked offense, and a higher ranked defense, and let's keep in mind that they are in a fairly strong conference.
I think this will be a very good game, and it will all depend on turnovers and consistency.
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The Lions are wondering who will cover Wayne. He's having a great year.
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So we finally get a pick and....we turn it over. Of course, what else do we expect?
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We need to keep the ball and sustain long drives. We're a passing team, and not a power running team.
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This is what I was afraid of after we scored the last touchdown. We always get too conservative and just try to run out the clock
Opinions regarding RG3
in NFL General
Posted
To your point about the single back formation- I would argue that by far the Redskins most effective formation is the Pistol style read option offense, and that the single back offense is not as effective. Yes, there have been plays that have been run successfully out of the single back formation, but there have been a high percentage of unsuccessful plays out of that formation. I have noticed that when in that formation, RGIII has scrambled and run to gain yards, rather than pass because the play-action fake is not as effective and the defense can be more aggressive.
I can't argue against your statement about RGIII not taking many big hits anymore, when out of the pocket and running. But you and I know that taking hits when running is inevitable, and the more he runs, the more he puts himself at risk. Up until this point, RGIII has had over 43 designed running plays and numerous plays where he ran after dropping back to pass. HUnfortunately, he must keep running to pose the threat of a run to the defense, or else the read option run play will lose it's effectiveness. I still thnk that a change in this offense is inevitable.
I did immediately clarify in my very next post about the 48% YAC, less than 50% as you've mentioned.
Statistics have a funny way of telling a story. What if I were to say that RGIII throws many short passes and very deep passes, but some, not many intermediate passes. This would skey the stats to show a greater YPA because of the deep pass completions, but still allow RGIII to dink and dunk on a majority of plays. Meanwhile, we could have another QB that doesn't dink and dunk, but also doesn't throw very deep as often. He's asked to make the intermediate throws on average, along with screens and slants, and thus has a lower YPA. That QB is asked to make harder throws more consistently resulting in more yards, but also a lower completion percentage, and more INT's. Luck's Yards Per Completion is at 12.6, higher than RGIII's and among the highest in the league.
Lastly, I will say this. I would love to sit down and watch a Redskins game and a Colts game with you. I am sure that we could appreciate what the other sees in their QB. I've always stated that I think RGIII is a good QB. But I see such a difference in styles of play that I think, and possibly unfairly, that Luck is asked to do so much more with the offense that he's running. Again, of course, I'm probably biased.