Flash7
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It was evident last year that after Peyton had his surgery and missed the preseason, he was not the same in the first four games. It took him a while to get back on track, and we were 6-6 at some point in the season.
By the time he's cleared to play, he will have missed about a year of football. He is not on IR so that he can be evaluated when he comes back to practice. I really doubt that he will play in any games this year.
The problem with this approach is that the cards are stacked against him. What are the odds that he looks good in parctice, and what are the odds that he looks bad? After taking a year off from football, and not having thrown to his receivers to establish timing, and rebuild armstrength, he will look extremely rusty. Of course they will monitor his progress through several weeks and months, but....
Wouldn't this cause the FO and coaches to lean towards drafting a certain rookie quarterback since they will see Peyton Manning at his worst?
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What if Peyton Manning is cleared to play and he actually gets into a few games at the end of the season and he plays horribly? This will create far more questions than answers.
Is it because of his arm strength or lack there of?
Does this give us a decent evaluation of him?
Is it fair to evaluate him right after coming back from surgery?
Does this have DRAFT implications?
Will he be able to play better in the NEAR future? How long can we wait before finding out? etc...
We can't assume that because he comes back, all will be fine. He missed the preseason last year and took a while to play at his usual high level. He will have missed nearly a year of football.
Just a hypothetical scenario to think about.
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i did read the thread. giving options on what we should do and im asking you why is an option that we take luck and hes a bust.
What Jason is pointing out is that the options provided in the original post of this thread are not fair or equal and the cards are stacked in favor of one arguement over another. To make his point, he recreated a scenario with one option being good, and one option being obviously bad, (the Colts drafting Andrew Luck and he turns out to be a bust.)
Jason is not saying that Andrew Luck will be a bust, but is hypothetically stating that given ONLY these two scenarios, which one would you choose? He is making a comparison of his two questions to the original questions posed.
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If we have the first overall pick, consider trading it for additional picks only if you know that Manning is 100% healthy and can play at a high level. I think if we get some help for him on defense, and some more help on defense, we have a legitimate chance to win now. A Super Bowl win would make us all forget about Luck and remember how great we have it with Manning.
If Manning is determined not to be healthy, then you must choose Luck, regardless if you can trade for more picks. We don't want to be like the Jets with a good team but missing a quarterback that can win a Super Bowl. The quarterback position is the most important, and Luck may be the best prospect in recent years.
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No but we could trade the pick and get multiple players who play at positions that may not be as vital as the QB position, but we'd be filling multiple holes instead of just one. Yes we could still do this by taking Luck and using the other 6 picks...or we could trade the one pick for 4-6 additional picks to go on top of what we already have allowing us to fill that many more holes right away (I wish I could think of a better way to word that lol).
Jason, I agree with you that looking at other options besides Luck is the right thing to do, but just to play devils advocate...
What if we do a great job of filling the holes in the Colts D-line, secondary, and O-line , receiving corps over the next few years and build a solid team because we traded the first pick for multiple picks. During our rebuilding, Manning has played well, well enough to make it to the playoffs, but no further. As time passes, our team is still good but we see that Manning is just not the same. Of course, age has caught up with him. We turn the team over to some other quarterback that was to be groomed as Manning's heir. The other quarterback is good, but not great. Who would we most resemble?
The jets? The Ravens? Both of these teams are dying for a quarterback that can take them over the top. And although both teams have great talent all around, they are lacking in the most important part.
I do understand that this is a hypothetical question, but a legitimate one based on what's happening now in the NFL.
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I ask you Luck Lovers who is going to help him win a Superbowl? Because the core talent of this team is getting pretty old. I'm not sure how you guys think Mr. Legend aka Luck is going to win anything with this team he will inheirit from the post Manning ERA. Lets see who will be around to help him get off to a great start in 2016.
mathis - no
wayne - no
clark - no
saturday - no
bethea - no
People say ,"wait...Powers, garcon, angerer, and collie are good young guys." If you think they can replace the names I have listed above then we are in big trouble.
How is the "boy wonder" going to make the Colts good, with the talent he is going to have around him? We will be drafting #1 overall from 2016-2020, thats what you get if you Draft Luck. He can't win by himself, we need to get the rest of this team better first. So lets waste the opportunity to get Manning some good 1st round talent around him. I'll take some Superbowls now, and worry about getting a unproven "wonderboy" later.
If you project Luck to play in 2016, my guess is that by then we would have had many other drafts. The guys that you mentioned, Mathis, Wayne, Clark, Saturday, and Bethea all came from the draft. It's not like if we choose Luck, we will not be able to draft any other players. Your agrument sounds like we draft Luck and go home, end of draft. How do you know that we can't draft Luck and then draft replacement guys? We would have the first pick in every round of the next draft and can choose from the best available players in each round. We would also have numerous other draft picks prior to 2016, which is when you are projecting Luck to play. I'm not entirely sure that's accurate either.
I am not a "Luck lover" and think that it may be a better decision to evaluate Manning, evaluate Luck, and weigh out if it would be a better option to take Luck as a QB, take luck and then trade him, or trade the pick during the draft. It's too early to tell.
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Peyton Manning is the most accurate QB in the NFL.
And I wouldn't call Aaron Rodgers athletic.
He is talented and all, but what makes him special is that he is very NFL ready.
Peyton Manning is my favorite quarterback, but unfortunately he's not the most accurate. It's been Drew Brees for the past few years. The only way to tell is based off of yearly completion percentages, and before Drew Brees, it was Warner and Pennington.
I'm sure that many defensive coordinators would disagree wih you on how atheletic Aaron Rodgers is. He's no Mike Vick, but is a threat to run out of the pocket.
What's wrong with being NFL ready? Shouldn't we want that? Doesn't that mean he's a good prospect? Given a choice to choose from NFL ready and "great upside" I'd choose NFL ready.
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It just shows that he is overhyped. He has one of the best O-lines in the nation. The are great at running the ball and pass blocking. Almost any quarterback will play good when he has a great supporting cast. I mean what makes Luck so special? He doesn't have an incredibly strong arm, he isn't the most accurate passer, he isn't the most elusive quarterback, and other things as well. My guess is that he has good footwork and fundamentals and knows what to do mentally as a quarterback. He's just very NFL ready.
I live in California and get to watch a lot of Andrew Luck's games. I agree that he is overhyped, mainly in that he is a college quarterback and he's projected to be a star NFL quarteback without even taking a snap in the NFL. But, his abilities are not overhyped. He is very talented.
Using your argument, we can ask, what makes Peyton Manning so special? He isn't the most elusive, doesn't have the strongest arm or is the most accurate. My answer would be that Peyton Manning has a strong arm, just not the strongest, but strong enough to make every throw necessary in the NFL, as does Andrew Luck. You don't have to have a rocket for an arm. Peyton Manning may not be the MOST accurate passer, but he is very accurate, much like andrew Luck. Peyton Manning is not that elusive, but has great pocket awareness. Andrew Luck is actually very atheletic and has been compared to Aaron Rogers in this regard. Now what makes Peyton Manning very special is his understanding of the game, his fundamentals, and his preparation. Andrew Luck has demonstrated his understanding of the game by calling plays during the game, like Peyton does. He is known as a gym rat, much like Peyton and his preparation is eveident on the field.
Now lets be clear, I am in no way saying that Andrew Luck is as good as Peyton Manning. What I am saying is that there are similarities, and I am just pointing out those similarities. Why wouldn't you want Luck to play for your team? He is the most like Peyton Manning of any quarterback to come out in recent years?
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1. If we draft solely based on need, then we would draft based on Manning's health. If he is healthy, then our needs would first be on defense.
2. If we draft to build our defense, how many players can make a solid impact immediately while we still have Manning? Would they need time to develope? If so, Manning doesn't have that much time. You could argue that the players that we draft, being that they will be high draft choices, would be more ready to contribute to the defense. I would argue that if we continue to use the same defensive scheme, it may not matter who we draft. The Tampa 2 can be a good defense when everything is working right, but overall, it has only brought us 1/2 of a solid season of defense (Superbowl winning season), and over 6 years of below average defense. We would have to change our scheme in order to be effective, which again would take a lot of time. We cannot do this while Manning is here due to the short amount of time he has left to play.
3. After a few years of our draft choices playing together in a new scheme, we may have a solid defense and an overall good team, but Manning will be on his way out. Once Manning leaves, we will then be very much like the Jets. A team with good defense, good overall talent, but not a star quarterback that can win a Superbowl. We can choose other quarterbacks in the draft, but we may end up wih guys like Sanchez, who are good enough to start, but not win a Superbowl. Luck is projected to be much better, a once in a genertion type of player.
If I have to take a gamble, I'd rather gamble that we solidify the most important position on the field. Yes, it is a gamble, just like any draft choice. And, we would still have other high draft picks to address team needs.
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7-62 tells you they quit. At least you hope they quit because if they got beat 7-62 while trying, then I'm not sure which is worse.
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Gruden is not that great of a coach. He came in after Dungy had assembled a winning team and rode that to a Superbowl. Then a few years under him, the team was horrible. Sounds a lot like Caldwell, taking a Dungy assembled team to a Superbowl and now...
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The players never quit playing for Dungy and were inspired by him. They've obviously quit listening to Caldwell. Tony dungy can inspire his team to play better and faster.
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I understand your point and basically agree with you, but the question was why did we think the team was a contender, given that everyone was 100% healthy. I would argue that although Reggie Wayne is getting older, is still a very good receiver. If peyton were healthy as the topic suggests, Wayne would be having a good year, based on how he's currently playing with Painter. Garcon is inconsistant but has big play ability, however, Peyton would utilize his other assets a lot more. Austin Collie has dissapeared with Painter, and I contend that he would be very potent with Peyton at QB. He was starting to be his favorite target.
In your post, you have mentioned that we need to get bigger, and for the most part we have been drafting larger players over the past few years. You also mentioned that we need to develope the O-line. Well, drafting 2 O-linemen in last years draft would be a start. I've already mentioned the pounding back in Carter.
Given all this, I still contend that at the start of the year, we had a lot to look forward to. Now, not so much... other than to enjoy our team play, regardless of the outcome.
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Last year we made it to the playoffs with a depleted team. We had injuries in the secondary, defensive line, offensive line, linebackers, tight end, and multiple injuries to our receiving corps. This year through the draft we've added offensive linemen to improve our pass protection and running game, and also a tough physical short yardage runningback to get more first downs on third and short. Also we drafted defensive linement to stop the run, helping to improve our run defense. Overall, without injuries, we had a lot to look forward to. Our secondary was still going to be a problem, but with a strengthened offense, we had a shot to outscore our opponents.
I would say there was a lot to be optimistic about.
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I agree with you, GoPats. Sanchez is on a team with an emphasis on defense and a "don't screw it up" attitude at the quarterback position. They don't allow the quarterback to play to his full ability, which in turn has caused Sanchez to lose a lot of confidence. You could argue that if alex Smith had landed with another team, he may have had better results. You could make the same argument with Sanchez and the Jets. He really hasn't had a consistent corps of receivers, and has had to adjust to new receivers every year. When he finally builds rapport with a receiver, the team lets them go.
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You have to ask yourself, what difference would they make to the team THIS year. At this point, we are 0-5 with them playing, which is unfortunate. I like Mathis and Wayne, but there is no guarantee that they will be around next year. you can either take a gamble and hope that they stay with the team next year at a reasonable salary, or you can get something tangible in return. I would like for the front office to find a way to keep both of them, but that may not happen.
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I don't agree with handling this as a Rogers/Favre situation. There are many differences as you have pointed out. The front office will do a thorough investigation into Manning's health, and how well he has been able to rehab. If they project that he will be healthy enough to produce at a high level, (obviously he won't be able to produce at the same level he used to prior to surgery, and having aged) they will make a push for the Superbowl with Manning and trade down for more draft picks to surround manning with a better team. As we all know, there are many issues with this team that need to be addressed. Having more picks will allow us to do this.
If Manning's health is considered to be a future issue and he is not projected to play at a high level, they should draft Luck with the intention of starting him sooner rather than later, maybe after 1 year of being with the team. (He will not hold a clip board for 4-5 years.) With Luck, you have made a calculated decision to draft the best quarterback prospect in recent years. We also will get the first pick in every round of the draft. So essentially, we can choose from the best available players in each round and also address some of the holes in the team. In either scenario, you have protected the team and made a sound decision.
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Peyton manning is not placed on IR so that the front office can evaluate his health and ability when he returns to practive with the team this year. He may not play any games, but the front office will definately want to see how he is progressing. If they see a completely healthy Manning, they will trade the pick for more future draft picks. If they feel that he is not healthy and they project a decline in his ability, they will draft Luck with the intantion of playing him sooner, rather than later. He would not sit there holding a clip board for 4-5 years. It all depends on the projection of Manning's health.
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Austin Collie17, why not draft luck as the first overall pick, and use our remaining picks to address the rest of our issues? Just because we draft Luck does not mean we forfeit the rest of our draft picks. We will be drafting first in every round and can get the best available player in every round. This is far better than pickig at the end of every round, like we have been. I see this as a win-win. We can still get very good immediate impact players with our remaining draft picks that we have. Most people think that if we draft Luck, that's it end of story. The reality is that it can be the beginning to a great draft.
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I've posted this on " Why are Colts fans scared of the idea of drafting Luck" and thought that it is relevant here as well.
Peyton Manning although having surgery on his neck, has not been placed on IR. You would have to assume that this is so that he can practice when cleared to play. I highly doubt that he will actually play in any games this year; however, he will practice, mainly so that he can rebuild his arm strength and re-establish timing with the receivers. More importantly, so that he can be evaluated by the front office prior to this year’s draft.
At this point there are two directions that the front office can pursue, either to draft Andrew Luck, or trade the pick, given that we have the first overall pick, (which still is unlikely.)
If Peyton Manning’s health is an issue, then obviously we will draft Andrew Luck. He is too good to pass up on. The quarterback position is the most important position in football, and although does not guarantee that we will be a winning team; recent history has shown that teams with a good quarterback usually are contenders. What has been missed in many posts is that given that we have the first overall pick, then we would also have the first pick in every subsequent round of the draft. We would have the option to choose the best player in each round. These picks can be used to strengthen the defense, and receiving corps. We would essentially then have the “best player” in the draft and the best pick in each round to address our additional needs. People have forgotten that we can draft Luck and draft other players too.
If Peyton is healthy and on track to recover without the discomfort that he has felt in his neck in previous years, the front office may choose to trade the draft picks for numerous picks. They can surround Peyton Manning with talent that can contribute right away; with picks at receiver and DB etc…You can argue that if Peyton Manning was playing this year, we would be 4-1. We can certainly be much better with numerous first and second round picks for the next few years. The focus would be to win a Superbowl with Manning NOW. What the front office would have to consider is that Peyton is getting older. He will be 37 years old during the next season. With age comes a progressive deteriation in speed, strength, and ability to recover from soreness. The front office will have to make the decision if Luck is an absolute must, regardless of Peyton’s health at that time, in which case they would draft Luck with the knowledge that he would learn under Peyton for a year or so, and then be the eventual starter.
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Peyton Manning although having surgery on his neck, has not been placed on IR. You would have to assume that this is so that he can practice when cleared to play. I highly doubt that he will actually play in any games this year; however, he will practice, mainly so that he can rebuild his arm strength and re-establish timing with the receivers. More importantly, so that he can be evaluated prior to this year’s draft.
At this point there are two directions that the front office can pursue, either to draft Andrew Luck, or trade the pick, given that we have the first overall pick, (which still is unlikely.)
If Peyton Manning’s health is an issue then obviously we will draft Andrew Luck. He is too good to pass up on. The quarterback position is the most important position in football, and although does not guarantee that we will be a winning team; recent history has shown that teams with a good quarterback usually are contenders. What has been missed in many posts is that given that we have the first overall pick, then we would also have the first pick in every subsequent round of the draft. We would have the option to choose the best player in each round. These picks can be used to strengthen the defense, and receiving corps. We would essentially then have the “best player” in the draft and the best pick in each round to address our additional needs. People have forgotten that we can draft Luck and draft other players too.
If Peyton is healthy and on track to recover without the discomfort that he has felt in his neck in previous years, the front office may choose to trade the draft picks for numerous picks. They can surround Peyton Manning with talent that can contribute right away; with picks at receiver and DB etc…You can argue that if Peyton Manning was playing this year, we would be 4-1. We can certainly be much better with numerous first and second round picks for the next few years. The focus would be to win a Superbowl with Manning NOW. What the front office would have to consider is that Peyton is getting older. He will be 37 years old during the next season. With age comes a progressive deteriation in speed, strength, and ability to recover from soreness. The front office will have to make the decision if Luck is an absolute must, regardless of Peyton’s health at that time, in which case they would draft Luck with the knowledge that he would learn under Peyton for a year or so, and then be the eventual starter.
No Way Irsay Shows Bill Polian The Door At Season End
in Colts Football
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You're missing the point dn4192. Peyton Manning had 10 winning seasons despite the lack of talent around him. Your argument is like saying that the GM of the Cleveland Cavaliers did a great job solely because he drafted Lebron James. We all knew Cleveland was a 1 man team, just like our Colts are proving this year. We're pointing out the flaws that we have seen for years, but due to Peyton's greatness, we couldn't prove it. Now we have the proof that Polian has not built a strong team. He was lucky enough to have the chance to draft Manning, and Manning took care of the rest.