Flash7
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The defense obviously cannot be graded based on what we are seeing this year. It's unfair to give a grade to the defense when the offense cannot stay on the field. I make the argument that our defense will not be so bad next year.
There are many teams in the NFL with lack luster offenses and great defenses, Ravens, Jets, 49ers, Bears, all of which produce and are the big reason why their teams win. The Colts defense is nothing special even when they are barely on the field, so I am curious what you are getting at? Why are they going to be better next year, with the current players on D?
The Ravens,49ers, Jets, and Bears also have a better offense than the Colts do this year. I agree that all of the teams that you have mentioned have much better defenses than our team. The Colts defense has always been below average, and I am not at all saying that I am satisfied with how they've performed. What I am getting at is that even with the poor defense that we've had, we've consistently been a good team, and with a few good draft picks, we can address some of our weaknesses at DB, DL, and safety.
1. With Bullit back healthy next year alongside Bethea, we would have a formidable group of safeties. Not great, but good enough to win, as we have in the past with these two safeties.
Bullitt is a back-up safety at best, he has no impact when given his opportunites and he is no starting caliber safety!
Bullitt is serviceable and we could either choose to address the safety positon this year in the draft or next year.
2. With Bracket back next year, we would have a solid group of LB's, Angerer, Bracket, Conner and Wheeler for depth.
Brackett has to go, he is old, overpaid, and has been over rated by many fans his whole career. This is still an area of weakness for the Colts.
There's no trade value in Bracket, so he stays. If he can't perform like he has in the past, he doesn't start. Our LB's are one of the bright spots in this year's defense, so we do not necessarily have to make any changes, but we could choose to upgrade if given the opportunity.
3. Our D-line with Nevis is starting to take shape. We can add additonal D-linemen in the draft. We wouldn't have addressed this in the first round anyway, so drafting Luck would not prohibit this.
The D-Line is still weak there is no interior pressure and no ability to stop the run. Nevis is the only player who has any value on the D-Line, Mookie is a backup tackle at best on any other NFL team.
As I mentioned, we could add additional D-Linemen with our remaining 6 picks.
So if we draft Luck with our first pick, we can address either CB, DL, OL, safety, receiver with our remaining picks. Also, keep in mind that Luck will be with the Colts for many years and will have more opportunities to surround him with a talented team.
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I agree that the only remaining winnable game is Carolina.
I was just thinking that would the Colts play their starters the last two games of the year? There's obviously nothing to gain by playing them. Would the coaches want to risk injury for a meaningless game? For that reason, I think that Carolina is the only winnable game left.
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Well, let's not forget that a very good argument can be made that if Peyton were playing this year, we would be having a fairly good season so far, as it has been stated numerous times how Peyton has covered up deficiencies etc....OK so 2012 rolls around, NFL draft kicks up, Colts with the #1 overall pick take Stanford QB Andrew Luck.
Now what? Now we are a team with two elite QB's and I'd be willing to bet Neither of them are leaving, so for the sake of this topic lets assume we keep both Luck and Manning, Painter is history and so is Orvlosky.
Does anyone see any glimmer of hope to fix this defense? What about aging weapons on offense? This is Clark's 2nd season ending injury in a row, Wayne isn't what he use to be, and Mathis is up for a huge pay raise.
What do we do now? How do we fix this defense without making any huge splashes in FA (because I'm sure the Colts won't do it based purely upon Philly's season)
I'd like to hear some ideas of what comes next and how we resolve the gaping holes on both Defense and Offense.
The defense obviously cannot be graded based on what we are seeing this year. It's unfair to give a grade to the defense when the offense cannot stay on the field. I make the argument that our defense will not be so bad next year.
1. With Bullit back healthy next year alongside Bethea, we would have a formidable group of safeties. Not great, but good enough to win, as we have in the past with these two safeties.
2. With Bracket back next year, we would have a solid group of LB's, Angerer, Bracket, Conner and Wheeler for depth.
3. Our D-line with Nevis is starting to take shape. We can add additonal D-linemen in the draft. We wouldn't have addressed this in the first round anyway, so drafting Luck would not prohibit this.
4. Freeney and Mathis are still very good and will continue to be for just a few more years. We can address pass rushers in this draft or the next depending on the available talent.
5. We have Jerraud Powers who is a good CB. We definitely need to address CB as a major need.
On offense, we have a group of young receivers that are up and coming. Garcon is showing that he is very capable. Austin Collie, although not having a great year, we know what he is capable of doing with Manning. And yes, Dallas has been hurt, but I have been impressed with his back-up Tamme. Wayne is a concern. I think that he can still play, but if he demands a big payout, then we mayhave to draft his replacement. Overall, we have 7 draft picks and have enough picks, if we do end up drafting Luck, to still address the team's needs.
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I like your post, but wanted to clarify that Luck didn't go in the draft this past year because he wanted to finish college. He is scheduled to graduate this year and that is why most people think he will enter the draft this year, even though he is eligible to play another year of football.How about this. Peyton makes a full recovery and returns next season. Luck stays in College and finishes his education (call me traditional, but I like someone that finishes what they start). The colts go better than 8-8 next season, with a trip to the post season, but with all the problems out team has, they go no further. Then in the 2013 draft, the Colts take whoever they can get - perhaps they will get Lucky? The colts could trade up for Luck, and then have him sit a year or two behind Peyton who finishes out his career before handing the reigns to Luck (or whatever other Qb we pick).
At this point the Luck speculation depends on many things. Luck quits school early for the draft, the Colts get the #1 pick, Peyton isn't going to be healthy or the team cuts him. But even if these three things happen, it's no miracle cure for this season because the team is still the team, the coaches are still the coaches and the front office is still the front office.
Regardless of the Luck speculation, it seems to me that Peyton's absence this year has show up some deficiencies in our game planning and play calling that apparently Peyton Manning was able to mask with his on-field game management and audibles. It's also show up deficiencies in the pass protection, receiver corps, and somewhat unexpectedly considering he's the QB, his absence seems to have exposed the defense, coaching, planning and execution. Were we really so dependent on Peyton adjusting on the field and gaining a lead so that our D could play the way they play? With all of that to consider, I think that long before we make any decisions regarding drafting Luck, or any other high profile player, we have a lot of work to do to re-evaluate everything from the top down to find where we are weak, or simply doing a bad job, and fixing those things.
Imagine if the play calling, game planning and execution on both sides of the ball was 10% better. Just a couple of extra catches a game could have resulted in wins already this season. Curtis Painter and the team are looking broken by the defeats. but just a couple of catches and they might have a completely different demeanor. Look back to the titans game. Painter tried to take the game on his own shoulders. Had it not been for a couple of goal line muggings that went unflagged, the colts could have easily had that game. That's not his fault, but what if there were two fewer dropped passes in that game, would the goal line calls even have mattered? I've seen this time and again with a young, untried B who comes into a bad situation. There is only so much they can do, and if after giving their all, the rest of the team appears to have given up and the fans blame the QB, the poor QB can only withstand so much of that before giving up them self. I feel like this is where we are now. Painter is not a franchise QB, but he could start and win given better support on the field and off it. However I think that time has passed now, perhaps the Bye week will offer sufficient time to regroup and come back with a new attitude?
Back to the topic though. Blaming Peyton Manning for this debacle is kind of like blaming an injured officer for the performance of his troops under another commander while he is in hospital. No one would do that, so why would anyone point a finger of blame at Peyton Manning. Personally, I feel like the coaching staff and front office bear the blame for not recognizing and fixing the deficiencies that Peyton's absence has drawn into view.
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If Manning comes back healthy, then I am all for winning now. I am not in the camp that says that we draft Luck no matter what. I am in the camp that says, given specific information, we make the best decision for the Colts. If Manning is healthy, then I am all for trading the first pick in the draft so that we can have a bounty of draft picks to address the teams needs in an effort to win a Super Bowl with Manning. I am hoping that if we take this approach, we also address the coaching and the defensive scheme.Let me ask the Luck faithful this.. If Manning is back and healthy and has 3-5 more years of football left (which I fully expect), is it better to draft another Tackle who is projected as one of the top ten LT prospects to come out of College, and really solidfy the offensive line for years to come. Or is it better to take a QB (Luck) to sit under Manning for 3-5 years and have the QB position take a massive cap hit on our team? When we could trade the Luck pick and get a large bounty for him, and rebuild this team from the inside out. Since you rebuild a team inside out. That means fortify the offensive and defensive lines, two problem areas for the Colts in recent years.
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Can't we draft Luck and then use our remaining picks to address other issues like our defense and O-line? We will have Luck for 10-15 years, which gives us plenty of time to address the O-line, if you like.For all you shouting for Luck, how do you think he would do getting massacred behind that same o-line Painter is throwing behind?
Look if Peyton doesn't come back, and we may need to start over. But let me ask you....what team ever drafts a QB with no help and is successful?
So with the no. 1 overall pick, we should set-up a future QB for success. Everybody knows a QBs best friend is a franchise LT. Look what Long has done with Miami. You guys want our next QB to just get killed and land on IR right away? Didn't think so.
Cahlil is a prospect on par with Luck anyway. heck, some teams that want the no. 1 spot might even want it for him. So take Cahlil or maybe a WR to replace Wayne and draft a QB in the later rounds to groom.
If we know that Peyton can play, that might change our draft philosophy. If he can't then we have to address the QB positon.
Let's say we solidify our O-line instead of drafting Luck and we have a solid team, except for we don't have a ligitimate Super Bowl caliber QB. Wouldn't we be similar to the jets, or the Ravens? Is that what you want your team to be like?
I'd rather take a shot at drafting the best QB prospect from this years crop of QB's and move forward knowing that we have made an educated guess to draft a good prospect to address the most important position on the field, and continue being more like the Colts than the Jets or Ravens.
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Caldwell inherited a good team that Dungy had assembled and coached. I knew then that when Caldwell was given the head coaching position, his main job wasn't to come in and coach the team, rather keep in place what Dungy had built. That's how the Colts made it to the Super Bowl, where it was evident that Caldwell was out-coached. Now over time we've seen the Dungy effect wear off and in a time when the Colts need leadership there is a void. It's clear that if Caldwell were a leader, the team would continue to win. This season is an anomaly, however, we've started to see a slow decline since Caldwell has taken over. If the Colts do not change it now, the slide will continue.
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dn, it's as is you did not read my post at all. I started out by saying that you could have both Luck and Manning but that it is not the best way to move forward.I think you can have your cake and eat it to. If and that is still a HUGE "IF" Peyton is NFL ready next year, you still take Luck, let him learn under Peyton for 2 seasons, then come the offseason after the 2013 season you see where Luck is, if he is ready you deal or release Manning.
I've already addressed that Luck will not learn that much behind Manning, just as the previous back ups have not. They need to take snaps at practice and learn with the first team. As long as Manning is healthy, Luck can only watch because Manning prepares to win every game he plays. His preparation includes taking every snap at practice. Luck can learn only so much by watching Manning prepare.
Secondly, you would be waisting Luck's affordable years, where you can be agressive in building a solid team around him. Not having Manning would free up a lot of cap space. It just does not make sense to draft luck under the rookie wage scale and have him sit and then once his rookie contract is set to expire and it goes up dramatically, then you play him with a roster that has to take into account his new salary.
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The problem isn't that we can't keep them on the same team, it's that it would make more sense to move forward with either Manning or Luck. Here's why: If we trade the pick for Luck, we will get a bounty of additonal picks to build the team around manning in an effort to win now. (Yes we would be risking missing out on his successor, and risking another year like this year if he is injured. In drafting Luck, you would risk that he may not develope to be as he is projected to be. either way there is a risk.) This approach would lead us to build a more balanced team, with the understanding that within the next few drafts we will have to find a QB as a successor.
If we draft Luck he will be under the rookie wage scale for presumably 4 years. And if we keep Manning, Manning is due a lot of money, at least $28mill. We could use that money to build a better team around Luck. Both sorgi and Painter have had the opportunity to learn behind Manning and it's evident that it does not help to watch Manning take every snap in practice. Luck will only learn so much behind Manning. He needs to take the reps in practice and practice as the starter, with the startig team. It does not make sense to have Luck sit behind Manning while he is relatively inexpensive. We would be wasting this opportunity. Once his rookie contract expires, we will have to pay him accordingly, and for Luck as the first pick, it will be hefty.
So as a franchise, you have to decide that either way there is a short window. Do you want to try to win with Manning and forego Luck and build the team in that regards. Or do you go with Luck and understand that building a team with Luck and Manning will be ineffective.
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He's averaging 71% completion over the past two years and 65% completion percentage if you include his freshman year (keep in mind that most freshmen do not start). So, overall he has a 65% completion percentage over his college career, which is still very good.ROFL!!!!!!!!
71 percent completion for his College Career!!
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I agree that there is value learning from Manning how to prepare for a game, how to watch film, etc. However, the real learning that takes place is from reps at practice where you can get your timing down with your receivers, and get a better understanding of the offense. The more reps that you have, the more comfortable you are with the offense on game day.It's not about Manning teaching Luck...it's about Luck learning from Manning...there's a difference
I guess my point is that you are right in that he will learn from watching Manning, but it's a limited amount of learning. We haven't seen this style of learning translate into good performances by either Sorgi or painter.
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How much has Painter learned from Manning? Manning will not teach his replacement how to play the QB position. Manning plays to win football games, and prepares to win. He takes every snap in practice, so to think that Manning will groom the next Colts quarterback is unrealistic.I agree man, I would like to see Luck learning behind manning next year. Let's get this ball rolling, I am ready for Madden 13! lol
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Please tell me that you are being sarcastic. I actually laughed when I read "Painter is a great QB." Painter is decent at best. Manning is a great quarterback and when you compare the two, it's obvious that there's no comparison.Why do we need Luck if we got Painter.
Luck is good in all but we dont need to *waste* the number one draft pick to get him we need to trade that draft pick to get more picks this year and next year.
Painter is a great QB but who is going to look like a great QB if we have WR's dropping the ball and most of the time are RB's can bearly gain 1 yard and every time he drops back the pass rush is rite in his face with pressure every play and stooped penalties and your offense is never in rythem and your defense lets the other teams score on every drive.
All i am saying is if we fix most of those things with the draft and some great coaching we mite see painter look like a great QB
If Luck was in the same situation that Painter is in rite now Luck would look as bad as painter.
Can someone tell me why we need to waste the first pick on Luck .
We don't have to take Luck, but we definitely do have to think about finding another quarterback as a successor to Manning.
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Luck has passed for 8337 yards and has thrown 74 touchdowns to only 19 interceptions (this includes the two from tonight) in his college career. He has a 71% completion percentage average over the last two years. That sounds OVERRATED to me.Hopefully after the Oregon/Stanford game the Luck Hype willdie down. He only throws short passes and his passes over 20 yards and high or flat not allowing the wr to make a catch...LUCK IS OVERRATED and the NFL will be a big change for him...Hopefully after tonight everyone wont be praising him as best QB since Manning...OVERRATED..had to say it again...hopefully Colts don't waste a draft pick on him, trade the pick away to someone else and let them make a mistake in drafting him...i won't call him a Ryan Leaf because Luck has a better head on his shoulders but we might call him a QB like David Carr, Joey Harrington or maybe he willhave 1 good year like Rick Mirer..NONE of themare a QB you want to build a team around...DONT DRAFT LUCK !!!!! Luck will run out after timeand you will have a bust..
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His top deep threat, Owusu, is out with a concussion. He's basically left with a slot receiver and two tight ends. Not much of a deep threat available for him.Does Luck only throw short passes? Two games I've watched now and that's all I see.
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I see a lot of good arguments regarding this post. There are two camps firmly entrenched in their views, the draft Luck camp, and the trade for more picks camp. Both sides have merit to their arguments. Let's quickly rule out some of the arguments that do not make any sense.
1. "Let's draft Luck and let him develope like Rodgers. -We cannot draft Luck and have him sit and develope like Rodgers. We would be waisting the rookie wage scale. He only has a few years when his salary is not high. This is when you would take advantage of his rookie contract and be agressive to build a well balanced team around Luck. Unfortunately, this means that we would trade or release Manning due to Mannings large contract.
2. The notion that Luck would be learning from one of the greatest behind Peyton is not realistic.- Peyton Manning takes every snap in practice becuase he wants to win and he prepares that way. He will not give up on the opportunity to win and prepare at practice, so that he can groom his replacement. Once Peyton can't play at a high level anymore, he will be done. He's not someone that goes halfway. He's past actions show that he an "all or nothing" type of guy and he would have nothing to do with "grooming Luck."
3. Andrew Luck might bust- Let's not compare Luck to guys that were questionable coming out of College like the obvious busts Leaf, and Russel. What Luck has is both the skills and intangibles and would be very comparable to drafting a guy like Matt Ryan who everyone said had good character and the talent. However, Luck is projected to be better than Matt Ryan based on how his skill set would fit NFL offenses, his accuracy, and his overall IQ. Of course there is a risk with every prospect that you can draft. You can't not draft a guy because he may bust, otherwise you would essentially be scared to draft anyone, as there are no absolute gaurantees.
These are some of the obvious ones that I've seen over and over again. I thought that it would be good to address this now in hopes that maybe we won't see the same tired arguments over and over again in the future.
There's probably more that I've missed, so feel free to help out.
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Well, going 0-16 has nothing to do with Luck. It has everything to do with the Colts and if the team is good enough to win or not. I'm sure that from a player's stand point, they would rather have a win than the first overall pick, regardless of who that may be.You cant go 0-16 just to get a draft choice...
The difference between 1-15 or 0-16 is a lot more than one win..
Luck isnt worth the disgrace of 0-16
0-16 for the Colts is very different than 0-16 for the Detroit Lions. Everyone will understand that we did not have Manning this year, and that this year's Colts team is not indicative of the Colts teams of the past, or what this year's teams potential would be with Manning playing. By the way, who cares that the Lions went 0-16. They are a good team now and that's what people think of them now.
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I was thinking that as well, however, I figured that if we did not win any games leading up to the last game of the year, we may not care enough to win that game. By then, our players may have already made plans for the offseason and they may be "checked out." The only hope is that Jax has done the same.Of the remaining games which one do you think we have the best chance of winning?
I am going to say Jax (away) the last game of the season.
I think that our best chance to win will be this week, or against Carolina coming off of our bye week.
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Look, I'm not saying we should draft Luck with the first pick, but to say that he has the weakest arm that you have ever seen is flat out uninformed. Phil simms opened his big mouth and said that he hasn't seen Luck make NFL type throws and now everyone thinks Luck has a weak arm. Phil Simms said that to be a contrarian so that people will notice him. Who even knew that Phil Simms existed afer his football career? He made one statement and now the media, Peyton Manning, and others are commenting on what he said, and you've fallen for it.Luck has one of the weakest arms I have ever seen. Maybe if we had some talent in other positions we could win some games and make us even better when manning comes back. This franchise has proven has been proven inept once again with how they just depend on one guy and without him we are done. I think the GM needs to go and everyone with him.
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So What Caldwell is syaing is "Hey it's not just our defense that bad, let's give our offense some recognition as to how bad they are doing too!"
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If we actually bring in Haynesworth it would show how desparate we are. The worst defense in the league, New England, gets rid of this guy and we want to pick him up?
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You're right, he's 0-6. I forgot about Collins, maybe on purpose. But my point stands that he hasn't done much to prove he deserves a realistic shot at a starting spot moving forward. He hasn't shown much while others who are in their first year are showing that they are capable.Wow, you're so slanted he's not 0-9 he's really 0-6 with a loss in closing a game.
If you believe he has it easier than Manning you are tripping. I say they have equal chances and he doesn't look any worse than Manning and he wasn't the first pick of the draft. I will let the FO make the choice of the QB.
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The problem is that he doesn't play and doesn't plug any holes. If he did those things, he would not be released.the colts have no good players at DT not counting drak nevis... they need help there big time... it would be nice to see albert come here and play let him plug some holes.
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You are comparing Painters stats today from a very quarterback friendly, passing friendly NFL, to Peyton's stats as a rookie, when the NFL was a little different."Will all the Curtis Painter fans please stand up."
First 7 games att comp pct yds yd/at td int record
Manning 131 240 54.6 1,595 6.65 9 14 1-6
Painter 104 195 53.3 1,221 6.26 5 5 0-7
Wow, 14 INT's a glaring difference not to mention Manning had a real HC
Just stay seated.
The fact that Dalton and Cam Newton can come into the NFL and have much better stats in their first year, than Painter has in his 3rd years is a little alarming. Painter may have a chance to develope into a good quarterback, but he's going to have a hard time proving it at 0-9, and if he doesn't prove it now, he may not get that chance again.
Colts Need To Go All-In With Manning Or Luck
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