Flash7
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Posts posted by Flash7
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Let me propose a hypothetical question...
What if Bill Belicheck was our coach and Maning went down for the season. Would Bill go 0-12 at this point in the season, with this same exact team? If you say yes he would because of the personnel, then we should keep Caldwell because it's the fair thing to do. If you believe that no amount of coaching would make a difference with the team that we have.
I contend that with BB we would have definitely won a few games this season. He would have changes schemes to adjust to the strengths of our players. He wouldn't allow for a quarterback in his fist year as a starter to constantly throw for 40+ attempts. He would've found a way to win. If you also believe this, then it's fair to think that Caldwell is under performing and deserves to be fired.
To be a part of a team like the Colts, who have been a winning team for over a decade, you have to have high standards. You cannot be okay with losing every game because PM isn't playing.
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Jason, I agree with all of what you've stated with the following exception: When Polian said they are looking for the right quarterback, I take that to mean the best evaluated quarterback regardless of if he is willing to sit behind Peyton or not. With the confusion of whether Polian even had a discussion with Peyton regarding drafting a quarterback, I think that he is tipping his hand that he will draft a quarterback and perhaps without the intention of having him sit behind Peyton. It's also possible that I've read into it the wrong way.Just to clarify, I never said that I think Luck will hold out. The point was simply that Luck could try to force a trade ala Eli Manning if he didn't want to sit on the bench for 4 years. I also agree you don't not draft a player because you're scared he won't sign. I don't think that would be an issue at all because with the #1 pick, Indy will have ample opportunity to negotiate with whoever they want at #1 (unless they decide to trade) prior to the draft so. I also agree with Gocolts when he mentioned that Bill Polian keeps saying it has to be the right guy, and imo part of that means a guy who is fine with being behind Peyton on the depth chart. I have no doubt they'll discuss this with each of the top QB prospects they bring in. If Luck expresses to them that he'd rather not sit that long then I don't think the Colts would bother drafting him. I don't think it would ever come down to either side having to try to play hard ball. I think it's something they'll discuss and the Colts wouldn't try to draft someone who's going to be unhappy sitting. There's no need to try to force someone into a situation they don't want to be in and possibly causing dissention or resentment. There's no reason to bring that kind of drama. One thing the Colts have done in the past decade is avoid drama like the plague.
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I agree that the an NFL team would most likely dominate even the most superior college team. In the case of the Colts, I am till not convinced that Painter could have a good game against a fast LSU defense. There have been times when he's missed wide open receivers. I trust the Colts as a whole, but think that if we played LSU with Painter as the QB, we may be in trouble. I've lost any hope for Painter.
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You are also watching a highlight video and they usually highlight the big plays, which usually result when a player is wide open. He's made plenty of throws that are NFL caliber. If he doesn't do that, there would not be any buzz about how good he is, and how NFL ready he is.I have noticed that most of the time he's hitting a wide-open WR. The nfl isnt college and you have to make pinpoint accurate passes. I'm not saying luck doesnt have accuracy (his 70% completion this year). But i just dont see him making any tought throws. I think curtis painter could make all the passes in this video
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I couldn't agree with you more about defenses only giving you a chance to win. I never believed in the "defense wins championships" motto. I always believe that its the best TEAM that wins the superBowl. What I was hoping for is for you to envision the Colts with a solid defense, like the ones that the Steelers have had, and the same old Colt's high scoring offense, thus making for a great team. I feel that it would be possible for this to happen if we play this situation right.Flash...I think comparing Pitt vs. Indy is getting into a debate about football philosophies or even trends. What does it take to win a SB? Is there 1 blue print to follow? I don’t think there is, I believe there are different paths to meet the same ends. I like the path we have chosen for the past 10 years and don’t want to see that changed. I have really seen this game change over the past 10 years and believe it will continue to do so. I don’t believe in defenses winning championships, they only give you the opportunity to win, you still have to be able to score.
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Well, let's put the money issue aside... Would you agree that if the Colts had the Steeler's defense and the Colt's offense the past 10 years, Manning would have a lot more Super Bowl victories? If Big Ben could win, then for sure Manning and the Colt's would've been a dynasty, right?I just dont buy the money argument...most can agree that if Peyton were playing this year we would have 7 or 8 wins now and/or be in the thick of the AFC playoff picture. Thus if the QB postion is THE reason for the chance at a playoff or a SB run than why wouldn't you pay anything for having not 1 but 2 options?
My point is that in order to have a solid team both offensively and defensively, you would need to have talent all around. Moving forward, the Colts have the great fortune of having the number 1 pick, and having Manning. In order to build a great team, they can use either Manning or Luck as leverage. So taking money out of the picture, and looking at it from the stand point of building the best team, I think they should explore either of the two options.
Since only 1 of the 2 QB's will be the starter and on the field, it would be a better use of the opportunity to build around either QB. We can still look for a competent back-up either through FA or the draft.
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No team would trade for an injured Manning. I think that we would all agree on that.Flash..Tell me which team that you think (I'll accept any you cant think of) would trade multiple draft choices and pay $28 million for Peyton Manning ....with his injury situation as we know it now...
what franchise is desperate enough, foolish and rich enough to do that?
If Manning is healthy and he has shown steady progression and has shown that he could throw the ball like he did previously, there would be many teams that would trade for Manning. Dolphins, Redskins, Jets
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You are right that they could co-exist, and that during that time Luck would be a very good back-up, which is something that we haven't had. I think that during the time when we have both Manning and Luck, Luck's salary will be as you had mentioned, around 4-5 Million. However, Mannings would be so much more.You make many good points. I'm only commenting on this because it stands out to me right now. People keep criticizing the front office for not having a "capable backup" quarterback on the roster, ignoring the fact that a backup quarterback with any pedigree is costly, especially if he doesn't play. But then they say "we can't draft Andrew Luck because that's a $4 or $5 million backup quarterback, and we can spend that money somewhere else." People want it both ways. Not necessarily you...
I don't see any reason why Luck and Manning couldn't co-exist for three or four years, if necessary. I'm not saying that's a reason to keep them both. There's an argument to be made either way. But money isn't the argument, not at this point.
Manning is my favorite football player, and even with that said, I have to think that logic should rule out when making a financial decision. Manning will be owed something like $28 Million next season, compared to Luck's salary of 4-5 Million. If we do trade Manning, we would get rid of his huge salary and even gain something else in return, such as draft picks etc..We can use the savings and added draft picks to make the Colts a solid team. Also, keep in mind that if Luck backs up Manning for the first 4 years, those are the years where he is relatively cheap. His salary will most likely increase after his initial contract. We should take advantage of that as well.
I would not like to trade Manning, however, in this scenario it would make sense. Of course there are many risks associated with this, such as getting rid of a HOF QB for an unproven rookie. I would most compare Luck with Andy Dalton, both of whom are very smart and have a great undesrtanding of the game, have good but not great arms, and are extremely accurate. They both have played on winning and ranked teams with good defenses. I see a lot of similarities. So far, from what wev're seen of Dalton, he's a very good QB and someone that the Bengals can build around.
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Montana was badly injured while with the Forty Niners and sat out for nearly the entire season. He cam back healthy the following season and was traded to the Chiefs. He was old and coming off of an injury, yet there were teams willing to take a chance on a future hall of famer. I would make an argument that there would be teams willing to take a chance on Manning.You cannot trade Peyton Manning....He's a $28 million 36-year-old player who has missed the entire year with injury..
No one will trade for an injured Manning...
..and why would we trade a healthy one?
Why would you trade a healthy Manning? That's a great quetion and I personally wouldn't trade a healthy Manning. I was simply stating that it's a better financial decision to either build with Manning or Luck. It could make sense to keep them both, but I personally believe that there is more value in keeping either Manning or Luck, and leveraging the other's value to build the team through a trade.
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As far as can they co-exist financially, yes they can. I think the question is "Is this the best use of our money?" If we draft Luck and keep Manning, a large portion of the team's funds would be invested in the quarterback position and we are all aware that there are several other needs that also need to be addressed. So, would it make more sense to either keep Manning and trade the first pick in the draft for additional draft picks that can help to make the Colts a more stable and solid team? Imagine having Peyton Manning with a solid O-line, translating into great protection and a great run game. Also imagine Manning playing on a team with a solid defense that can cause three and outs and get Manning the ball back.
On the other hand, if we draft Luck, then it would make sense that we trade Manning to build a team around Luck. Andy Dalton does not have Palmer to learn from, yet he's having a very good season, as is Cam Newton. If we've learned anything lately, it's that rookie quartebacks can come in and be successful in the NFL, especially with all of the new rules that have turned it into a passing league.
So basically, yes we could have both Manning and Luck on the same team and the team could afford it, however, it would be at the expense of not being able to fully address the many issues that this team has.
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It's not impossible that rookie quarterbacks can have a good season. One of this year's best rookie quarterbacks is Andy Dalton of the Bengals. I wanted to review his scouting report when he was in college to see how he was projected. Here is his scouting report:
ANDY DALTON
Accuracy
Dalton’s strength as a passer is his accuracy. He consistently places the ball in an area that only his receiver can make the catch and does a great job leading the receiver and giving him room to run after the catch. During his pro day workout Dalton showed excellent accuracy to every area of the field. There are questions about his deep accuracy, largely related to arm strength. He will get a little high throwing outside but this can be corrected with better timing coming out under center. Dalton has NFL-ready accuracy.
Arm strength
There are questions about his ability to push the ball up-field. He threw passes of 60 yards in the air during pro day, but this was in shorts and without wind. Dalton will not be a big-arm quarterback in a vertical system. He has the arm strength to throw go routes and out patterns but relies more on timing to make his throws. The ball will float down the seam too often. Dalton has the strength to throw with zip and get the ball between defenders. As a West Coast Offense passer, he would excel due to his ability to fit the ball in tight spaces on short and intermediate routes. Despite not having the strongest arm, he does show nice touch on deep balls.
Athleticism/mobility
Dalton performed very well as a runner during his TCU career. He has experience running a zone option and also as a shotgun passer who was given the green light to run if needed. Against Wisconsin in the Rose Bowl, the Horned Frogs featured Dalton’s rushing ability to throw off the aggressive Badgers defensive line. Dalton totaled 1,611 rushing yards and 22 scores on the ground in his four years as a starter. He has shown the ability to make throws moving left and right out of the pocket.
I see a lot of similarities with Dalton and Luck. They both played on good top ranked teams with solid defenses. They are both very accurate, both are mobile, and have a great understanding of the game. If all of these attributes translate well in the NFL for Dalton, why woudn't they transalte well for Luck?
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Regarding Coyer and his defense... he claimed that the Colts organization did not want him to use exotic blitzes and that the Colts philosophy was to focus on a traditional cover 2.
I guess we will see if he was tellling the truth by the way the defense plays this week. If the defensive philosophy really is to be strictly a cover 2 team, then he may be right. However, if we see a lot of blitzes this week, then we will know that he was saying that to save face, and lobby for another coordinator job in the future.
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Here is a statement that I had posted on another thread that may also address what you've mentioned.that is the whole problem with luck. Every analyst built him up as the goat last year and now this year no one is willing to reevaluate him. Not saying luck isnt good but from closely watching him this year he looks to just be a good qb. Not a hof like everyone makes him out to be.
If I were to scout Andrew Luck this year, I wouldn't be too impressed. I know that a lot of the hype from last year has carried onto this year, which got me to thinking...
What has changed from last year to this year? The obvious answer to me is the personnel. He had more deep threat receivers to throw to last year. This year, his main targets are his tight ends. This has caused for the offense to focus more on the running game (I am aware that they ran a lot last year). The focus is now more on the running game because of the personnel and having giant tight ends that can both catch and block.
I think that shows Lucks ability to adjust to a different type of offense. And although his numbers aren't amazing this year, he is still averaging 70% completion and an 8.6 yards per attempt, which is amongst the highest in the Pac-12. This shows that he does take shots down the field and is not a dink and dunk passer. And this is while operating out of a pro-style offense.
If you take into account his entire body of work, it is impressive.
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You can only make a valid comparison if Tebow had equal time playing for the Colts. We'll then see if our defense could hold opponents in close games to let Tebow work his magic. My guess is with Tebow playing in a Colts uniform, we'd have the same record, 0-11. The problem with Painter is that we get way too many 3-and-outs. That's exactly what we'd get with Tebow.Well...Tebow is better than Painter and Orlovsky.
He's finding ways to win regardless of his skillset...not throwing interceptions in the endzone in critical moments like our boy "curly locks". Wouldn't make sense to trade for him though with the draft coming up and the possibility that Peyton could return healthy next year. -
I wouldn't. Several reasons:
1.) Maybe Tebow needs time to work his 4th quarter magic? The 1st-3rd quarters gets him warmed up.
2.) You'd be generating controversy. Some players wouldn't know which QB to rally around. Plus, the fans made it clear they want Tebow. If they see another QB in the 1st-3rd quarters, the fans will feel cheated.
3.) Tebow has done an excellent job of protecting the football by avoiding INT's and fumbles. If another QB who plays in the 1st-3rd quarters screws this up with poor ball control, then Tebow will be forced into a deep 4th quarter deficit that wasn't even his fault. Say what you will about Tebow's 1st-3rd Q performance, but at least he doesn't turn the ball over!
I just quickly want to address your third statement about Tebown not turning the ball over. Yes, he hasn't fumbled when running the ball which is great, but to say that not throwing an interception is a plus for Tebow is a little awkward considering he only throws the ball about 8 times per game. He had one game where he only completed 2 passes. I just feel that he doesn't throw the ball enough for that to be a ligitimate praise of Tebow.
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Doogan, I am all for Peyton Manning coming back and having a productive season. I think that would be the best case scenario. I am simply stating that I have concerns about Manning.After a year of rest, I don't think the tired legs will be an issue. He spoke with Elway, Marino, and Favre at length about keeping their bodies going at an advanced age and has since taken more to fitness than he did earlier in his career.
Luck is not the best shot at keeping the winning tradition alive, arguably or otherwise. Peyton Manning is, because he's done it, and he's as sure as it gets in the NFL. Luck could also be a colossal flop, incapable of winning outside of Stanford. There will be other QB prospects when we need them.
I am willing to wager that 99% of the people (on these boards) who REALLY want Luck to be a Colt have never studied, scouted, or even watched the kid play. They are watching Aaron Rodgers play, and assuming that's what is going to happen.
You are right in that Luck could end up being a colassal flop, but so could every single prospect that enters the NFL. At some point we will have to draft someone to be Manning's successor.
You may be right that most of the people on the forum haven't watch Luck play and are simply stating everything that they hear on ESPN, not sure about that though.
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I would have to assume that Polian and Irsay have a better handle on the Colts financial situation and when they say that they could afford both, I'd go with that.Yeah but we didn't have a QB making 90 million and a #1 overall pick making 25-30 million.
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If we get Luck, it doesn't mean that we give up on fixing the glaring holes on the team. When we drafted Peyton Manning we kept drafting other players too. Peyton's first year, we had a losing season and kept building the team. It took time. We can't be so shortsighted and think that if we draft Luck we need instant gratification. It will take time to fill the holes on this team, but at least the most important position on the field will be addressed.If they keep Manning AND take Luck I have no idea how the colts will fill all the other glaring holes. . . I'm for one or the other, either go all in for Manning or all in for Luck.
Even if they go all in with Luck they will have to still fix those holes but they can spend some money in F/A
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Smitto, yes of course I get that e had played through pain last season. My point is that with the shoulder pain aside, he will still have the usual pain and soreness that's associated with the NFL, specailly at the quarterback position. As he gets older, his body will have a harder time recovering and the soreness actually gets worse, not better. This will lead to a natural decline in production as we have seen with many aging quarterbacks. In addition, as I stated he has been out of football for a year and coming off of his third surgery. There is some legitimate cause for concern.You do realize that last year peyton was playing through the pain of that 2nd neck surgery... he was not fully healthy which is why he was a bit off on some of his throws... he played through the pain. Peyton will comback fully healthy if he is cleared to play.. the colts dont want no half peyton.... being sore only lasts for so long.
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Thanks Buck, you Tebowed my tebow thread.
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Wow, now Tebow is superior to Manning in the intangebles department? Manning doesn't have leaderships skills and a will to win like Tebow does? I thought this thread was funny to begin with but we've taken it to a whole new level now. This is beyond rediculous.We'll see. If Manning had his intangibles, Manning would have about 7 Super Bowls
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Luck started to impress people as a redshirt freshman. Last year his second year as a starter, he would've been the first overall pick if he came out in the draft. At that time he didn't have his huge tight ends, he mainly targeted his receivers. That's when a lot of they hype surrounding luck began. Because of the change in personnel, and lack of a solid receiving coprs this year, the offensive strategy has changed. Stanford is more run heavy and are now utilizing their tight ends more in the passing game. This should not be a knock on Luck. Instead it shows how he is able to adapt, change his style of play to suit his personnel, and continue winning. He's still completing 70% of his passes, just like he did last year.Montanna was impressive. Brady never got a real shot as he was the back-up qb. A-Rod was thought to be the first pick by many but SF went with Smith. I think luck can be good but i really just see him rolling out to the right and doing play action to his tight ends. If luck didn't have that running game, that o-line, or those tight ends i dont think anyone would be talking about him as the next elway.
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So you are proposing that with Tebow, the Broncos go with a college style spread attack? Against an NFL defense?The Broncos have barely dipped their toe into the water. Running a few option plays a game is not going all in. The fact is most NFL people are too scared of trying to revamp their offense into a college style spread attack.
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Tim Tebow has struggled immensely in the first three quarters of the game. His defense fights hard to keep the game within reach and Tebow finds a way to win in the fourth quarter.
Could the broncos use a traditional passing quarterback for the first three quarters and then use Tebow in the fourth quarter of close games? Would this provide them a better solution. They would not have to sit through three quarters of horrendous play, and they would still get to witness a last quarter miracle.
He's finding ways to win regardless of his skillset...not throwing interceptions in the endzone in critical moments like our boy "curly locks". Wouldn't make sense to trade for him though with the draft coming up and the possibility that Peyton could return healthy next year.
Where Is The One Win?
in Colts Football
Posted
A lot depends on what we'll see from Orlovsky. If he plays like he did against the Patriots, we may have a shot at winning some of the games.
I think that if we're 0-15 going into the last game, the Colts will play to the best of their ability. No one wants to have a "defeated" season. At the same time, J-Ville will play their best because they do not want to be the only team to allow the Colts to win. It will be very interesting.