[I Know This Will Never Happen, And Most Of You Will Say This Is Stupid But....]

If a team gives him a chance and really embraces his style of play and builds a team around him that will highlight his strengths, he will win a Super Bowl. But I'm not sure a team will go all in with him because it would require major overhauls that most NFL egos don't want to deal with and don't know how to do it.

What you've described is exactly what the Broncos are doing with Tebow. They'e completely changed their offense to suit his style of play and have gone "all in" with Tebow. Let's see if he can win a Super Bowl. I say no.

[I Know This Will Never Happen, And Most Of You Will Say This Is Stupid But....]

I agree with the title of this thread.

[Polian- Colts Can Afford Both Manning & Rookie Qb As First Round Draft Pick]

It would only be as such if, after evaluating Manning, he plays line he's 36. He certainly played younger than 35 WITH the pain. That pain will now be gone.

It's cute to repeat what the radio mouth-breathers are spouting, but that doesn't make it a relevant argument. Dan Patrick and Colin Cowherd said the same thing, word for word, because that's their job. They stir the pot to create conversation.

The fact is, this surgery alleviated exactly what was holding him back. The facts show that he was playing better than any 35 year old player in NFL history, despite the discomfort. The facts show that nearly every athlete makes a full recovery from this procedure, DB's excepting, for whatever reason.

Think for yourself, for a change. Drafting Luck would be LESS logical than stacking in defense and picks. This is a "win now" league. Not a "maybe in five years we will have the Rodgers scenario" league.

It had been reported that last year and the year before, Peyton was having difficulty handing the ball off on certain plays that required him to run, such as the stretch play. He was not able to run as fast as he used to, mainly due to tired and sore legs. He was missing hand offs at times during practice. This led the Colts to use the stretch play less during games. This is evidence that although Peyton played through a lot of pain with his shoulder,he was still aging. His shoulder next season may feel better, but his body will still continue to age. His body will be sore and tired throughout the season as with age comes a slower recovery.

What people fear is opportunity loss. What if we pass up on Luck, trade the number 1 pick for more draft picks and build a solid team around Manning, but Manning is just not the same afterwards. It's reasonable to think so after 3 surgeries for the same issue, after missing an entire season, and his continued aging. We would miss out on the opportunity to draft someone who gives us arguably the best shot at keeping the winning tradition established by Manning.

[Bucky Brooks And Fellow Nfl.com Analysts Are Sold On Luck]

If I were to scout Andrew Luck this year, I wouldn't be too impressed. I know that a lot of the hype from last year has carried onto this year, which got me to thinking...

What has changed from last year to this year? The obvious answer to me is the personnel. He had more deep threat receivers to throw to last year. This year, his main targets are his tight ends. This has caused for the offense to focus more on the running game (I am aware that they ran a lot last year). The focus is now more on the running game because of the personnel and having giant tight ends that can both catch and block.

I think that shows Lucks ability to adjust to a different type of offense. And although his numbers aren't amazing this year, he is still averaging 70% completion and an 8.6 yards per attempt, which amongst the highest in the Pac-12. This shows that he does take shots down the field and is not a dink and dunk passer.

[Belichick Talks Up How Good Colts Are To Prepare His Team]

Like i said. I find it rude and vulgar to bash another team. Regardless of professional ranking. Is that what we are teaching our youth? Unsportsman like play? Ive never been on the receiving side of an butt whooping, but have played on teams that were dishing it out. I didnt like it, neither did the opponents.

i realize these are professional player, but they should act like professionals. I guess i hold it to a higher standard.

I am in no way in favor of unsportsman like behavior, so please understand my point of view comes from the other side of the spectrum. Look at it from this perspective...I played on a high school football team that was very good. Many times we would win lopsided victories. We prepared all week for the games, studied, worked out, and practiced with the intent of reaching perfection. Then we would go out and play an opponent that didn't work hard, wasn't prepared, and we would win handidly. It was not fair for US to have to sit out the second half of the game to let our second stringers play. I always felt that the other teams needed to work hard to make themselves competitive and that their lack of preparation was unsportsmanlike. Why should I sit out of a game because they were lazy?

So with that said, why should the Patriots work hard all week to prepare and then not play hard during the game because the Colts are so inferior. As I stated, the sportsman like thing to do is for the Patriots to play as hard as they could, and the Colts to play as hard as they could. That's the only fair way to proceed.

[Caps And Jags Both Make Moves.... We Continue]

Del Rio has been with the Jags HC for 9 years. That's 9 years of below average play (three winning records, two playoff appearances - the last of either being in 2007). He's been under pressure for a long time. They replaced the GM a few years back, drafted a "franchise" QB last year. They thought they were trending upwards, but now they are a bottom feeder again. Enough is enough. The issue is that everybody knew he was going to be fired in the off-season so, it is pointless and uncomfortable to have him play out the string.

The Caps were one of the best teams in hockey, but failed miserably in the playoffs over and over. Now this year they are under-performing in general. They have some of the best talent in the league, but aren't playing like it. They have arguably the best player in the league, but he has taken massive steps backwards. It's reasonable to blame that on the coach, and it's reasonable to replace him now because the hockey season is LONG, and the new coach could spend the next four months just putting his stamp on the team, make the playoffs by accident, and hope to have the team playing well "when it counts".

The Colts and Caldwell are in entirely different situations, and firing him will provide no benefit other than to to placate those looking for blood. Fortunately the Colts don't resort to such nonsense.

Mac, I like your post and for the most part agree with you. I would however like to play devil's advocate for the sake of discussion. The lack of any change may show to the team that the FO/organization is okay with this season, and that it's understandable that we may be 0-16 becuase we do not have Manning. If we project Caldwell to be fired at the end of the season, it would not hurt to do it now and show your team that we do expect more out of everybody, and if you do not produce there will be consequences. Otherwise, it appears that everyone gets a "free pass" this year because of Peyton Manning's abscense.

If we do not project Caldwell to be fired at the end of the season, then Jim Irsay will have to do some serious evaluation throughout the entire organization.

[Belichick Talks Up How Good Colts Are To Prepare His Team]

Lets hope Bill and company have enough respect not to stick it to us and run up the points like the Saints did. Some wont see it that way, but i view it as unsportsman like. Like in hs softball we had the mercy rule. The goal of a team is not to destroy its opponents, but to have a quality game and be sportsman. The player Suh comes to mind..

ya, we should have a better team and play better, but running up a score is unsportsman like. And i find it vulgar.

The Patriots should play as hard as they possibly could. And if that means that the final score is 56-0 in favor of the Patriots, then that's our fault and not theirs.

[Colts-Patriots Point Spread]

The best strategy would be to keep Brady off of the field by running the ball and chewing up the clock. That means that Painter will get 40-50 pass attempts this game.

[Shaw Pumping Up Luck? Or For Real....]

Whatever Luck is doing, it's not working right now. He's just pumping up his player because his team has become vulnerable, and lost their way out of the NC picture. Luck was a major part of those losses. Once defenses got the running game under control a little bit, and more went in Luck's shoulders to become a passer first, his success has diminished. People may be all homered for the SEC, but all eyes have been on Luck whenever he's been on tv. He has simply failed to impress on those nights, and recent analysis has observed as much.

Doogan, it could be exactly what you've mentioned. I would argue that it could also be that during the last two televised games, his O-line has maintained the same personnel, and his runningbacks have been the same, therefore, the running game hasn't changed. The defenses have done a better job focusing on the run. What has changed is that he has lost his deep threat receiver, Owusu, who has had multiple concussions this year. His tight ends have also been hurt and in and out of the line up. So in short, when Luck is forced into passing situations, he's passing to a freshman receiver and doesn't have his core of tight ends to assist with the passing game. To me, this would be a greater indication why the passing game has been in a slump. It's more logical to thing that due to injuries to his receiving corps, the passing game has suffered a little, (he still pout up good numbers) rather than thinking that his average completion percentage over the past two year is at 71% and now all of a sudden he doesn't have it anymore.

[Not Impressed]

Luck reminds me of Tim Duncan, or as Shaq had dubbed him, "The Big Fundamental." What Luck has going for him is his great footwork and overall fundamentals that make him pro ready. He's not flashy, doesn't make incredible plays like RG3 (well actually he has a few highlight plays when running or catching the ball, or tackling a USC defender), and doesn't have a rocket arm. He's just very consistant over a long period of time. Overall, it's a good thing, but I'm used to watching Peyton Manning and I guess if you compare anyone to Peyton Manning, you would end up being dissapointed. I'll keep watching Luck to see if he comes out sharper than he has the last three games.

[Colts Need To Go All-In With Manning Or Luck]

I would say that in making this decision, you of course would have to take Manning's health into consideraton. As we've all said, the first thing that we have to do is determine if Manning is healthy and progressing.

Aside from Manning's health is another issue. The front office really needs to determine how good Andrew Luck is. A lot of people on this forum are already stating that he is our next franchise quarterback, and that he can continue on the success Peyton Manning has established with the Colts. We don't know this for a fact.

What the front office will have to do is compare him to other COLLEGE QUARTERBACKS, and not Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, or any other NFL quarterback. We have to evaluate the opportunity loss if we decide to trade the draft pick. What I mean by this is that if we pass up on drafting Andrew Luck, who else can we draft that would give us an equal shot at having the next great quarterback either in this draft of the following drafts. If we project Andrew Luck to be head and houlders above his peers, then we should draft him. If he is in the same arena as other quarterbacks, then we should definately trade the pick, and eventually draft another QB with potential. The media will portray Luck to be that much better, but let's understand that the media must have a story. Last year it was Cam Newton, and the year before it was Tebow.

[This Team Will Have To Go Like 4-28 Or Worse...]

I think that you may be right. If Manning comes back next year and we have a winning season, the FO will think that they've made the right move, however, we'll know what we've known all along, which is that Manning has covered up for so many of the deficiencies that this team has.

[Colts Need To Go All-In With Manning Or Luck]

What's wrong with investing in Manning until his career his done, but on the side training Luck. Then Manning retires, and invest with Luck. We can compensate both, you know that right?

It's not a matter of if we can compensate both, which we technically can. It's about the possibility of being able to build a more balanced and talented team with trading either one of the two QBs. This would optimize our chances of winning a Superbowl now.

[We Draft Luck, Now What?]

The defense obviously cannot be graded based on what we are seeing this year. It's unfair to give a grade to the defense when the offense cannot stay on the field. I make the argument that our defense will not be so bad next year.

There are many teams in the NFL with lack luster offenses and great defenses, Ravens, Jets, 49ers, Bears, all of which produce and are the big reason why their teams win. The Colts defense is nothing special even when they are barely on the field, so I am curious what you are getting at? Why are they going to be better next year, with the current players on D?

The Ravens,49ers, Jets, and Bears also have a better offense than the Colts do this year. I agree that all of the teams that you have mentioned have much better defenses than our team. The Colts defense has always been below average, and I am not at all saying that I am satisfied with how they've performed. What I am getting at is that even with the poor defense that we've had, we've consistently been a good team, and with a few good draft picks, we can address some of our weaknesses at DB, DL, and safety.

1. With Bullit back healthy next year alongside Bethea, we would have a formidable group of safeties. Not great, but good enough to win, as we have in the past with these two safeties.

Bullitt is a back-up safety at best, he has no impact when given his opportunites and he is no starting caliber safety!

Bullitt is serviceable and we could either choose to address the safety positon this year in the draft or next year.

2. With Bracket back next year, we would have a solid group of LB's, Angerer, Bracket, Conner and Wheeler for depth.

Brackett has to go, he is old, overpaid, and has been over rated by many fans his whole career. This is still an area of weakness for the Colts.

There's no trade value in Bracket, so he stays. If he can't perform like he has in the past, he doesn't start. Our LB's are one of the bright spots in this year's defense, so we do not necessarily have to make any changes, but we could choose to upgrade if given the opportunity.

3. Our D-line with Nevis is starting to take shape. We can add additonal D-linemen in the draft. We wouldn't have addressed this in the first round anyway, so drafting Luck would not prohibit this.

The D-Line is still weak there is no interior pressure and no ability to stop the run. Nevis is the only player who has any value on the D-Line, Mookie is a backup tackle at best on any other NFL team.

As I mentioned, we could add additional D-Linemen with our remaining 6 picks.

So if we draft Luck with our first pick, we can address either CB, DL, OL, safety, receiver with our remaining picks. Also, keep in mind that Luck will be with the Colts for many years and will have more opportunities to surround him with a talented team.

[Why Our Only Chance Is The Panthers]

I agree that the only remaining winnable game is Carolina.

I was just thinking that would the Colts play their starters the last two games of the year? There's obviously nothing to gain by playing them. Would the coaches want to risk injury for a meaningless game? For that reason, I think that Carolina is the only winnable game left.

[We Draft Luck, Now What?]

OK so 2012 rolls around, NFL draft kicks up, Colts with the #1 overall pick take Stanford QB Andrew Luck.

Now what? Now we are a team with two elite QB's and I'd be willing to bet Neither of them are leaving, so for the sake of this topic lets assume we keep both Luck and Manning, Painter is history and so is Orvlosky.

Does anyone see any glimmer of hope to fix this defense? What about aging weapons on offense? This is Clark's 2nd season ending injury in a row, Wayne isn't what he use to be, and Mathis is up for a huge pay raise.

What do we do now? How do we fix this defense without making any huge splashes in FA (because I'm sure the Colts won't do it based purely upon Philly's season)

I'd like to hear some ideas of what comes next and how we resolve the gaping holes on both Defense and Offense.

Well, let's not forget that a very good argument can be made that if Peyton were playing this year, we would be having a fairly good season so far, as it has been stated numerous times how Peyton has covered up deficiencies etc....

The defense obviously cannot be graded based on what we are seeing this year. It's unfair to give a grade to the defense when the offense cannot stay on the field. I make the argument that our defense will not be so bad next year.

1. With Bullit back healthy next year alongside Bethea, we would have a formidable group of safeties. Not great, but good enough to win, as we have in the past with these two safeties.

2. With Bracket back next year, we would have a solid group of LB's, Angerer, Bracket, Conner and Wheeler for depth.

3. Our D-line with Nevis is starting to take shape. We can add additonal D-linemen in the draft. We wouldn't have addressed this in the first round anyway, so drafting Luck would not prohibit this.

4. Freeney and Mathis are still very good and will continue to be for just a few more years. We can address pass rushers in this draft or the next depending on the available talent.

5. We have Jerraud Powers who is a good CB. We definitely need to address CB as a major need.

On offense, we have a group of young receivers that are up and coming. Garcon is showing that he is very capable. Austin Collie, although not having a great year, we know what he is capable of doing with Manning. And yes, Dallas has been hurt, but I have been impressed with his back-up Tamme. Wayne is a concern. I think that he can still play, but if he demands a big payout, then we mayhave to draft his replacement. Overall, we have 7 draft picks and have enough picks, if we do end up drafting Luck, to still address the team's needs.

[Peyton Manning]

How about this. Peyton makes a full recovery and returns next season. Luck stays in College and finishes his education (call me traditional, but I like someone that finishes what they start). The colts go better than 8-8 next season, with a trip to the post season, but with all the problems out team has, they go no further. Then in the 2013 draft, the Colts take whoever they can get - perhaps they will get Lucky? The colts could trade up for Luck, and then have him sit a year or two behind Peyton who finishes out his career before handing the reigns to Luck (or whatever other Qb we pick).

At this point the Luck speculation depends on many things. Luck quits school early for the draft, the Colts get the #1 pick, Peyton isn't going to be healthy or the team cuts him. But even if these three things happen, it's no miracle cure for this season because the team is still the team, the coaches are still the coaches and the front office is still the front office.

Regardless of the Luck speculation, it seems to me that Peyton's absence this year has show up some deficiencies in our game planning and play calling that apparently Peyton Manning was able to mask with his on-field game management and audibles. It's also show up deficiencies in the pass protection, receiver corps, and somewhat unexpectedly considering he's the QB, his absence seems to have exposed the defense, coaching, planning and execution. Were we really so dependent on Peyton adjusting on the field and gaining a lead so that our D could play the way they play? With all of that to consider, I think that long before we make any decisions regarding drafting Luck, or any other high profile player, we have a lot of work to do to re-evaluate everything from the top down to find where we are weak, or simply doing a bad job, and fixing those things.

Imagine if the play calling, game planning and execution on both sides of the ball was 10% better. Just a couple of extra catches a game could have resulted in wins already this season. Curtis Painter and the team are looking broken by the defeats. but just a couple of catches and they might have a completely different demeanor. Look back to the titans game. Painter tried to take the game on his own shoulders. Had it not been for a couple of goal line muggings that went unflagged, the colts could have easily had that game. That's not his fault, but what if there were two fewer dropped passes in that game, would the goal line calls even have mattered? I've seen this time and again with a young, untried B who comes into a bad situation. There is only so much they can do, and if after giving their all, the rest of the team appears to have given up and the fans blame the QB, the poor QB can only withstand so much of that before giving up them self. I feel like this is where we are now. Painter is not a franchise QB, but he could start and win given better support on the field and off it. However I think that time has passed now, perhaps the Bye week will offer sufficient time to regroup and come back with a new attitude?

Back to the topic though. Blaming Peyton Manning for this debacle is kind of like blaming an injured officer for the performance of his troops under another commander while he is in hospital. No one would do that, so why would anyone point a finger of blame at Peyton Manning. Personally, I feel like the coaching staff and front office bear the blame for not recognizing and fixing the deficiencies that Peyton's absence has drawn into view.

I like your post, but wanted to clarify that Luck didn't go in the draft this past year because he wanted to finish college. He is scheduled to graduate this year and that is why most people think he will enter the draft this year, even though he is eligible to play another year of football.

[Forget Luck, We Need Cahlil]

Let me ask the Luck faithful this.. If Manning is back and healthy and has 3-5 more years of football left (which I fully expect), is it better to draft another Tackle who is projected as one of the top ten LT prospects to come out of College, and really solidfy the offensive line for years to come. Or is it better to take a QB (Luck) to sit under Manning for 3-5 years and have the QB position take a massive cap hit on our team? When we could trade the Luck pick and get a large bounty for him, and rebuild this team from the inside out. Since you rebuild a team inside out. That means fortify the offensive and defensive lines, two problem areas for the Colts in recent years.

If Manning comes back healthy, then I am all for winning now. I am not in the camp that says that we draft Luck no matter what. I am in the camp that says, given specific information, we make the best decision for the Colts. If Manning is healthy, then I am all for trading the first pick in the draft so that we can have a bounty of draft picks to address the teams needs in an effort to win a Super Bowl with Manning. I am hoping that if we take this approach, we also address the coaching and the defensive scheme.

[Forget Luck, We Need Cahlil]

For all you shouting for Luck, how do you think he would do getting massacred behind that same o-line Painter is throwing behind?

Look if Peyton doesn't come back, and we may need to start over. But let me ask you....what team ever drafts a QB with no help and is successful?

So with the no. 1 overall pick, we should set-up a future QB for success. Everybody knows a QBs best friend is a franchise LT. Look what Long has done with Miami. You guys want our next QB to just get killed and land on IR right away? Didn't think so.

Cahlil is a prospect on par with Luck anyway. heck, some teams that want the no. 1 spot might even want it for him. So take Cahlil or maybe a WR to replace Wayne and draft a QB in the later rounds to groom.

Can't we draft Luck and then use our remaining picks to address other issues like our defense and O-line? We will have Luck for 10-15 years, which gives us plenty of time to address the O-line, if you like.

If we know that Peyton can play, that might change our draft philosophy. If he can't then we have to address the QB positon.

Let's say we solidify our O-line instead of drafting Luck and we have a solid team, except for we don't have a ligitimate Super Bowl caliber QB. Wouldn't we be similar to the jets, or the Ravens? Is that what you want your team to be like?

I'd rather take a shot at drafting the best QB prospect from this years crop of QB's and move forward knowing that we have made an educated guess to draft a good prospect to address the most important position on the field, and continue being more like the Colts than the Jets or Ravens.

[Did Everyone Hate The Coaches 2 Years Ago?]

Caldwell inherited a good team that Dungy had assembled and coached. I knew then that when Caldwell was given the head coaching position, his main job wasn't to come in and coach the team, rather keep in place what Dungy had built. That's how the Colts made it to the Super Bowl, where it was evident that Caldwell was out-coached. Now over time we've seen the Dungy effect wear off and in a time when the Colts need leadership there is a void. It's clear that if Caldwell were a leader, the team would continue to win. This season is an anomaly, however, we've started to see a slow decline since Caldwell has taken over. If the Colts do not change it now, the slide will continue.

[What Facts Justify The Assumption That Peyton Manning And Andrew Luck Can't Exist On The Same Team?]

I think you can have your cake and eat it to. If and that is still a HUGE "IF" Peyton is NFL ready next year, you still take Luck, let him learn under Peyton for 2 seasons, then come the offseason after the 2013 season you see where Luck is, if he is ready you deal or release Manning.

dn, it's as is you did not read my post at all. I started out by saying that you could have both Luck and Manning but that it is not the best way to move forward.

I've already addressed that Luck will not learn that much behind Manning, just as the previous back ups have not. They need to take snaps at practice and learn with the first team. As long as Manning is healthy, Luck can only watch because Manning prepares to win every game he plays. His preparation includes taking every snap at practice. Luck can learn only so much by watching Manning prepare.

Secondly, you would be waisting Luck's affordable years, where you can be agressive in building a solid team around him. Not having Manning would free up a lot of cap space. It just does not make sense to draft luck under the rookie wage scale and have him sit and then once his rookie contract is set to expire and it goes up dramatically, then you play him with a roster that has to take into account his new salary.

[What Facts Justify The Assumption That Peyton Manning And Andrew Luck Can't Exist On The Same Team?]

The problem isn't that we can't keep them on the same team, it's that it would make more sense to move forward with either Manning or Luck. Here's why: If we trade the pick for Luck, we will get a bounty of additonal picks to build the team around manning in an effort to win now. (Yes we would be risking missing out on his successor, and risking another year like this year if he is injured. In drafting Luck, you would risk that he may not develope to be as he is projected to be. either way there is a risk.) This approach would lead us to build a more balanced team, with the understanding that within the next few drafts we will have to find a QB as a successor.

If we draft Luck he will be under the rookie wage scale for presumably 4 years. And if we keep Manning, Manning is due a lot of money, at least $28mill. We could use that money to build a better team around Luck. Both sorgi and Painter have had the opportunity to learn behind Manning and it's evident that it does not help to watch Manning take every snap in practice. Luck will only learn so much behind Manning. He needs to take the reps in practice and practice as the starter, with the startig team. It does not make sense to have Luck sit behind Manning while he is relatively inexpensive. We would be wasting this opportunity. Once his rookie contract expires, we will have to pay him accordingly, and for Luck as the first pick, it will be hefty.

So as a franchise, you have to decide that either way there is a short window. Do you want to try to win with Manning and forego Luck and build the team in that regards. Or do you go with Luck and understand that building a team with Luck and Manning will be ineffective.

[Jim Irsay And Another Cryptic Tweet Suggesting We Will Draft A Qb.]

ROFL!!!!!!!!

71 percent completion for his College Career!!

He's averaging 71% completion over the past two years and 65% completion percentage if you include his freshman year (keep in mind that most freshmen do not start). So, overall he has a 65% completion percentage over his college career, which is still very good.

[Is It Just Me? Not Feeling So Bad About Our Team Going Into Next Year.]

It's not about Manning teaching Luck...it's about Luck learning from Manning...there's a difference

I agree that there is value learning from Manning how to prepare for a game, how to watch film, etc. However, the real learning that takes place is from reps at practice where you can get your timing down with your receivers, and get a better understanding of the offense. The more reps that you have, the more comfortable you are with the offense on game day.

I guess my point is that you are right in that he will learn from watching Manning, but it's a limited amount of learning. We haven't seen this style of learning translate into good performances by either Sorgi or painter.

[Is It Just Me? Not Feeling So Bad About Our Team Going Into Next Year.]

I agree man, I would like to see Luck learning behind manning next year. Let's get this ball rolling, I am ready for Madden 13! lol

How much has Painter learned from Manning? Manning will not teach his replacement how to play the QB position. Manning plays to win football games, and prepares to win. He takes every snap in practice, so to think that Manning will groom the next Colts quarterback is unrealistic.