GoPats
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The best part of this is how you guys assume Irsay is above this kind of thing.
He's far more of a classless human being than Kraft has ever been.
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On 3/25/2019 at 12:20 PM, crazycolt1 said:
In New England before there was Gronk there was Russ Francis.
Russ Francis was the 1st one who stood up to the Patriots after the Patriots tried to cancel Darryl Stingley's insurance after getting paralyzed.
He did end up winning a super bowl with the 49ers after sitting out of football for a year.
Ben Coates called and was wondering why you didn't bring him up in this post.
Since you're ALWAYS so free with the history lessons, interesting how you didn't bring him up. Google failed you this time!
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10 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:
He'd have to be very willfully ignorant to not think trafficking might have been involved with an Asian woman who barely speaks any English offering her "services" to Americans. Like, head-in-the-sand willfully ignorant, and it's a stretch to assume someone as intelligent and successful as Kraft could be that ignorant, even willfully.
I assume you're assuming he assumed she wanted to grow up to be a prostitute at a spa in Florida pleasuring wrinkly old men?
Wow, indeed.
I just like the way y'all selectively look at evidence when it comes to things like solicitation, harassing trainers at Tennessee, and using HGH that's delivered to your house in your wife's name.
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On 3/21/2019 at 7:43 AM, Gramz said:
I still believe he's guilty of soliciting, but there's no way to know if he was aware of the trafficking.
Wow.
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On 3/4/2019 at 5:51 PM, Nadine said:
I think it's all part of creating plausible deniability for him. He's a guy with options both with women and for massage therapy. He's also not a stupid guy. He doesn't drive across town for no reason. It's more likely than not that he knew what was going on.
I don't doubt he'll be able to get out of it. Police have a very hard time proving servitude
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article226942349.html
Apparently, Flushing NY is the main part of this syndicate. Indeed, there's a New york lawyer defending one of the arrested woman
I think what law enforcement did in this case was a good move
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/us/massage-parlors-human-trafficking.html
This is organized crime. This is corruption. Yet, I'm seeing a lot of headlines like 'punishing Robert Kraft won't end sex trafficking'
It's repulsive to see fans and the media turn a blind eye to this. It's willful and not good for the country.
This past week I watched a show on the global economy. One episode about corruption talked about this sort of thing happening everywhere. For example Dubai https://qz.com/88278/dubais-towering-skyscrapers-are-built-by-a-horrifically-exploitative-labor-system/
Their point in the end was that the more corrupt a country is, the more the inevitability that its economy would flatline. It's not sustainable.
People seeing this sort of thing in the United States and not being concerned are turning a blind eye. People who pump money into it are really willfully blind.
If you don't care about the rise in indentured servitude, perhaps you care about the impact it has on the country? I would think that most Americans would care about organized crime and corruption. People are proving me wrong. They don't care.
In this case, you're just saying 'they can't prove it'
Probably not.
I still give props to the way law enforcement tried with this one. It got attention. It needs constant attention. I hope they publicize all men who are busted at these places.
Edit: Significant recent increase in sex trafficking in Massachusetts
I'm sorry that you find it repulsive.
I guess it comes down to one question:
"Did Robert Kraft knowingly support a human trafficking organization/operation?"
If you believe that the answer is "yes," you're making assumptions.
If you believe that the answer is "no," you're making assumptions.
But I get it... I'm a Patriots fan, so my opinion (no matter what facts I have to support it) is not as of much value around here as the opinions of other posters.
Enjoy your Indianapolis Colts love-in, then. Just don't come here expecting any reality.
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On 3/2/2019 at 5:46 PM, WoolMagnet said:
Getting off on a technicality or mistake by law enforcement doesnt make a person innocent.
Well, unless you live in the greater Boston area that is.
Maybe Hannity can help you guys spin this.
Go back and actually read my posts. I didn't say a single word about getting off on a technicality. All I've said through this entire thread is that soliciting prostitution is not human trafficking.
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On 3/1/2019 at 1:57 PM, Nadine said:
I did see that and I wondered, since the tapes haven't been released how the NY Post would come to have that information
I don't know, but I bet you it's accurate.
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3 hours ago, Narcosys said:
That is probably the saddest and most shameful thing I have read in a long time.
It is not anywhere near the majority of them. Most don't realize what they're getting into and once in, they are stuck. Some may enter willingly, but then become trafficked. Of those that enter willingly they are almost forced due to poverty, inability to get jobs, and home life situation. Few, if any, go into it thinking it's the career they want for their lives.
Then you don't read much. But don't let that stop you from being all Judge-y McJudge-rton.
If you can put a lid on the sanctimonious, holier-than-thou stuff for about a minute, and realize that we're having more of a legal discussion than a discussion about morals and values, maybe this would be worthwhile.
You're also stating options as fact. "It's not anywhere near the majority of them," you said. Really? You KNOW that? If you do, please share how, or a source, or whatever.
Did you miss this yesterday?
"But it appears Kraft was caught on camera getting services from two women who are not victims of human trafficking: the 45-year-old manager of the spa, Lei Wang, and 58-year-old spa employee Shen Mingbi, also believed to be an operator of the business — both licensed masseuses and Florida residents."
https://nypost.com/2019/02/28/how-patriots-owner-robert-kraft-could-get-off-in-prostitution-case/
12 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:Even if u take the sex trafficking out of this story, prostitution is not glamorous the way it was portrayed in the movie Pretty Women. A large percentage of prostitutes have been sexually abused as minors . So, Kraft in essence was perpetuating the cycle of abuse. He's a smart man, he knows it. He's a dirty old man and I would not let my kids 100 feet around this man. I also bet a lot of the Patriot wives feel this way. He took advantage of vulnerable women. He's a disgusting man.
I've said it at least twice, and I don't know how else to say it, so I'll just repeat it I guess?
If Kraft is guilty of the charges he's facing, then I've lost a lot of respect that I had for the man. I don't believe in condemning human beings for making mistakes like this one though. He didn't kill anyone, he didn't hurt anyone, he didn't steal from anyone. He took part in an illegal activity that also carries a heavy moral burden for a lot of people. This is a guy who has been very generous with a lot of charities and overall has done far more good than bad in this world.
I have to wonder if you guys would even care if this was, say, the owner of the Browns, or Arthur Blank, or basically any other team!
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3 hours ago, Flash7 said:
Great reply @GoPats
I've numbered and highlighted a few of the points that you have brought up and will number my responses accordingly.
1) This is a bit of a straw man argument. I am not saying that every prostitute on the planet is a trafficked sex slave, rather, I am simply stating that human trafficking is a very real problem and it's abetted by solicitation.
2) Kraft may have been oblivious to the state of those women specifically, however, I'm sure that he knew that it was illegal to solicit sex, and further, that he was partaking in something that in a broad sense is a real problem, although hardly talked about due to the nature of the subject matter.
3) I'm not equating the two. I think that solicitation is not as severe as human trafficking, and the law reflects this. I do, however, hold a personal opinion that solicitation leads to the larger problem of human trafficking. Without it, the demand for sex slaves would not exist.
4) I am not making him out to be a horrible monster. I think he displayed poor judgement. As I stated in response #3, I think that solicitation is not as sever as the actual act of human trafficking.
All good points... thanks man. I think we're far closer to agreeing on most of this than we are on disagreeing. Sometimes its just a matter of talking it through!
I won't lie, it can sometimes be very frustrating to be a lifelong fan of the Patriots, despite their success on the field. Whether you're a player, coach, or game-day personnel, you've got to know that the spotlight is always on you and that any slip-up will be magnified. It infuriates me when they do stupid stuff like this.
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23 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:
Actually there were a few Pats fans on this forum and other forums that said that accused Irsay of being a dealer just because he had that much cash.
And yes as I recall some people got pretty upset about it.
I can only speak for myself but I didn't feel that way at the time. I figured, for a guy like Irsay, having $30K on you is the equivalent to me carrying $50 around in my wallet.
I am also sympathetic to what he went through. I had a problem of my own with painkillers following an injury and surgery about 18 years ago. I still don't take Percocet or Vicodin to this day... the strongest drug I'll put in my body is ibuprofen.
22 hours ago, Flash7 said:If there is no solicitation then there is no need for human trafficking.
Since he solicited sex, he is complicit in creating a demand for something as horrible as human trafficking.
7 hours ago, Narcosys said:His crime is solicitation, but all solicitation abet human trafficking. It is illegal to pay for sex for that reason.
Just like buying illegal drugs abet its trafficking.
Sorry, but you just don't do it.
So no rich person has ever risked their fortunes doing illegal stuff? Come on now, be the smart person you say you are and not the willfully ignorant one you're portraying.
He didn't have to be explicitly told they are sex slaves, it comes with the territory of solicitation and prostitution and even more so with Asians engaged in this.
Do you have to be explicitly told as an adult that boiling water is hot? No because you know the processes behind it that cause water to boil.
He knew what he was doing is illegal, you simply have to think it through to its logical conclusion. Solicitation and prostitution is the result of human trafficking.
I could agree with you guys on this, but then we'd all be wrong.
Seriously though, and with all due respect...
You guys can't really and truly believe this. Basically you're saying that every prostitute on the planet is a trafficked sex slave. Though I can't speak from experience, I would guess that is not accurate. Seems to me that plenty of them do what they do of their own free will and accord.
If Kraft wanted to avoid any chance of this story coming out, all he had to do was go to Nevada instead of Florida. Which is why I think it's fair to surmise that he was oblivious to the status of the women he visited at the spa.
If you want to look at it from a different, perhaps more objective point-of-view... I don't know how you could argue against this point:
Why is soliciting a misdemeanor in most states, while any sort of human trafficking crimes would be felonies? It's pretty simple. Because one of those things, though subject to people's individual moral judgement, is far less of an offense and in and of itself doesn't hurt anyone else. The other is far more reprehensible and just downright EVIL.
I'm not trying to minimize what he did. As I already stated, I've lost respect for the man. But let's not make him out to be some horrible monster because you guys don't like his football team. That's not fair at all.
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On 2/23/2019 at 6:05 AM, Narcosys said:
Are you seriously comparing drug use/addiction to prostitution and being complicit in human trafficking.
You say he isn't aware of the status of these girls...? Do you know many prostitutes who are there of their own free will and can leave whenever they want?
Even though its stereotypical, the asian community is known for having woman stuck in sexual servitude, being promised transportation and a life in a new place and then having their passports taken and making them "work off" their contracts. It is prevalent with Taiwanese, Filipinos, and other Asian girls that work in prostitution. Yes I know this because I lived in South Korea for a year and was made very clear to stay away from any girls working in juicy bars and other such less reputable businesses that are everywhere in many South Korean cities. The same happens in US, as many girls are sent all over the world, not just South Korea
So to say he had no clue is disingenuous, at best was being wilfully ignorant (seemingly like yourself).
Give me a break here.
You basically made my point for me here by taking "solicitation" and turning it into "human trafficking."
Also, Irsay's offense wasn't using drugs, it was operating a vehicle while he was severely impaired.
Although I am apparently "willfully ignorant" in your own words... I'm simply trying to make a point in a civil manner. No, it is not "disingenuous" to assume that Kraft did not know the status of any of the women working at this spa. In fact, it's irresponsible to assume anything.
Do you really think a guy like Kraft would risk his fortune, status, and - most importantly -- his reputation by knowingly soliciting sex slaves? I don't.
On 2/25/2019 at 12:37 PM, chad72 said:You sometimes wonder if their life purely revolves around Boston sports and if they realize life is bigger than their sports teams. It is also probable that there are lot of "Johnny come lately" fans that drown out the others too.
I would have been up in arms even if it was Jim Irsay caught in the same situation, as to why he used poor judgement in getting close to it.
Nobody is happy about it, or blowing it off. It's an embarrassment to the organization. My view on Kraft is certainly forever changed.
The only thing I've taken exception to is how many people here have stretched the actual charges Kraft faces into something much worse. What if, after Irsay's arrest, someone had said, "Well he was found with almost $30K in cash, so he MUST be selling drugs to school children!" You guys would be pretty upset with something like that.
If evidence comes to light that he knew these girls were victims of human trafficking then I'll be the first to further condemn his actions. But it's not fair to take a misdemeanor and turn it into a completely reprehensible act like many have done.
1 hour ago, Gramz said:I can see that.. no reason to release video to the public... graphic details have already been described and made public, but as for video...no-one needs to see that.
For the love of all that is holy, NO VIDEO! OMG, lol... I concur Gramz. No one needs to see that!
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This is disappointing and, on a personal level, pretty disgusting, but I think a lot of people are making a bit of a leap here insinuating that Kraft would be aware of the status of any of these women. Soliciting, versus being involved in human trafficking, are two very, very different things. Plus if you're going to apply the moral compass to Kraft how can you ignore some of the things Irsay has done? Seriously? That's the ultimate case of hypocrisy if you want to go there, but whatever.
I'm not happy. I don't condone it. But let's not make this more than it really is because, itself, it's bad enough.
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Just out of curiosity, are you guys talking about the Colts trading Brissett as a "sell high" kind of thing? Or is there some level of dissatisfaction with him? I don't think they would get as much in return as some of you are thinking, and I also feel like not having a capable backup in this league is extremely risky.
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I don't know if the Patriots will make a strong effort to re-sign him or not, but I can almost guarantee you they won't use the tag on him. I don't think that was ever an option. (At least not a realistic one.)
Hard to say what Flowers would be somewhere else. The Patriots get a lot of their pass rush from scheme, rather than just lining guys up and asking them to win one-on-one battles. (Though of all their D-linemen, Flowers has been one of the only guys who can do that regularly.) He's made some big plays at times too, which is another trait that guys tend to carry from one team to another.
I don't want to see him go, but I've gotten used to it over the years, lol...
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Was Flacco really an upgrade though? Aside from one outstanding postseason run, he hasn't done a whole lot in the league.
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I feel like the timing of Hunt's release by KC, relative to where they were in the 2018 season, was a major factor to them not beating the Patriots in the AFCCG. I know Williams was filling in admirably, but it seems like Hunt makes a big play in every game against NE and that they really missed him from a match-up perspective.
That said, it feels like it's too soon to sign this guy. I think I would have let the legal situation play out a bit first. Or maybe wait until at least a little of the backlash subsides.
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2 hours ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:
I have to disagree with the statement about Brady having 3 Super Bowls before he was Tom Brady. Granted in his 1st Super Bowl he only threw for around a 150 yds but he led the drive with around 90 seconds left to set up the game winning kick and earned game MVP. His 2nd Super Bowl he threw for 354 yds and 3 TD's and led a drive with about a minute left to set up the game winning field goal. He was the Super Bowl MVP again. Having to score 32 to win the game isn't a sign of an all time great defense.
I am in no way saying that Belichick can't win without Brady, but I wouldn't say that Brady couldn't win without Belichick either. Brady has benefited from having the greatest coach of all time and Belichick has benefited from having the greatest QB of all time. The 2 cannot be separated.
Thank you for pointing that out. SB 36 (vs. the Rams) was the defensive gem among those first three... that's where the D carried them. But SB 38 (Panthers) turned into a shootout. I believe the two teams 37 fourth-quarter combined points is still a record.
The next year (SB 39, vs. the Eagles) was a more balanced team, with Corey Dillon making a huge impact.
Vinatieri gets a lot of credit for his game-winning kicks, as he well deserves... but his legacy is really defined by the "Snow Bowl/Tuck Rule Game" kicks. In SB 36 (Rams), he hit a 48 yarder, indoors. In SB 38 (Panthers), the game-winner was a 41 yarder (and he had a 36 yard attempt blocked earlier in the game, and outright missed a 31-yarder). Then against the Eagles in SB 39, he hit a 22-yard FG with 7 minutes left that gave NE a 10-point lead.
Point being, as a Pats fan I'll always be grateful for Vinatieri, but the SB winning kicks were all kicks that any good kicker should make. It's not like he hit 60-yarders outdoors... they were all in domes or good weather. Without the drives orchestrated by Brady, those kicks never happen.
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5 hours ago, DaveA1102 said:
This is the first I have dove into this thread and, to echo @Mel Kiper's Hair's comments, kudos to all involved for a healthy and well-reasoned debate on a topic which will never be satisfactorily answered due to its subjectivity.
This is what a forum should be.
My main point would be in line with @GoPats, where I have to say I hate the "GOAT" moniker. It seems to have become a generic term, where it is applied too far and wide and has lost its meaning IMO. It also, as stated, is really difficult to quantify what it means and so, depending on your perspective, you can make an argument for any of the big names to be the "GOAT" in your own mind.
To that end, if your position is that Brady is the Greatest, I doubt I could argue against your logic. If your position is Manning is the Greatest, I doubt I could argue against your logic.
If you are asking my opinion though, my Horseshoe tinted glasses will always mean I side with Manning. The 4 SB appearances with 4 different HC's and 2 different wins with 2 different teams is such a phenomenal achievement that I doubt it will ever be replicated. I doubt we will ever really know how much of Brady's success is Belichick (and McDaniels) related but that does not diminish his achievements and performances on the field in any way, as it is not his fault his coaching situation has been so consistent and strong.
This ties in with the soccer debate of who is better, Messi or Ronaldo. My position on that has always been along the lines of "can we not just be grateful that these two amazing players are playing at the same time"? However, this position does not translate to this debate as there is no way I can say that I am "grateful" for Tom Brady!!!
Completely understood and I love your take on it, lol... cheers.
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On 2/12/2019 at 4:45 PM, Superman said:
Good post.
Speaking for myself, to the bolded, my comments about Brady benefiting from Belichick are not meant to discredit Brady. His resume stands on its own and speaks for itself.
My comments are a response to the general go-to statements that 'Brady just wins,' etc. I've always taken issue with that argument, because as we all know, the QB is just one piece of the puzzle. That's why I posted stats that show just how much of an outlier the Patriots' results have been over the last 17 years. The fact that the Patriots can and do win games even when the QB has an average performance -- and do so at a rate that no other team in history has done -- illustrates why it's a fallacy to say 'Brady just wins.'
It doesn't take away from Brady, in my mind. He can lay claim to whatever title anyone wants to place on him, legitimately: career accomplishments, individual stats, performance in big moments, playoff comebacks, division dominance, longevity, production in his 40s... whatever it is, however we judge greatness for NFL QBs, he's at or near the top of every discussion.
Likewise (good post), and I 100% get it. It's been what, like 10-15 years? So I know where you're coming from buddy, lol...
It's definitely an emotional, tied-to-where-your-heart-lies sort of issue. As you've very ably pointed out, even if he won just one Superbowl or maybe two, I think Brady still would deserve to be in the conversation...
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What, exactly, are you guys debating here? What comprises "the best," or the GOAT?
Is it "most talented" QB? If so, then Brady is definitively not that guy. He's made the most of a God-given athletic skill set but he's not the fastest guy out there for sure... doesn't have the best arm... his list of physical limitations is long. If you were judging strictly by talent, then IMO guys like Aaron Rodgers and John Elway top out this list. Brady is accurate, and fundamentally sound, and he's worked very hard at that. But it's not like he was destined for this from a very early age.
Maybe it's the most "accomplished" QB? Or to put it another way, most decorated? I don't know how anyone could argue that any other QB's resume matches up to Brady's at this point. He has the volume stats, individual awards, team achievements... basically as close to perfect as a career could get. He's done it all.
As others have pointed out, coaching is certainly a factor. But with Brady and Belichick, we don't know how much each has contributed to the other's success. We'll probably never know for sure, because Brady is not likely to ever play for another coach, and Belichick will probably not coach long enough to have a meaningful sample size with any other QB running his offense. Personally I think they've had a perfectly symbiotic relationship where each has basically "made" the other's career. Coaching is important, but we always hear the word "execution" in football. Brady has executed well, to near perfection at times, and it would be really difficult to say that any other QB (including someone like Manning) could have done the same in the same situations.
I hate to see rival fans go out of their way to discredit Brady, but I get it. It's more comfortable to attribute his success to Belichick, or to the system he plays in, or to the "cheating scandals" or whatever you want to attribute it to. But as a football fan (not just a fan of the Patriots), I find that to be disingenuous and sort of an agenda-serving point-of-view. I respect any diverging opinions on the topic, and it's a difficult topic to discuss, but to suggest that Brady was simply in the right place at the right time is intellectually dishonest. You aren't the QB of six Super Bowl winning teams -- over the course of nearly two decades, mind you -- if you're simply along for the ride. Brady and Belichick are the constants, and unless things change drastically, we'll never really know who deserves the credit or who really drove the bus.
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4 hours ago, PeterBowman said:
Lucky you!!! Lol Hawaii was awesome when the wife and I went a couple years ago......the long plane ride is rough though lol.
From Boston with the layover in SF it was like a 14 hour ordeal. With two kids (ages 9 and 6) in tow, lol...
All that said, this is an amazing place. More beautiful than I had even imagined.
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I’m gonna stay out of this one but just wanted to point out that if you remove “rings” from the discussion then Montana probablydoesn’t even crack the top 10. He was pretty average statistically but until the Brady/Manning era he was generally regarded as the GOAT. There are lots of factors so I respect whatever opinions people have.
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11 hours ago, Gramz said:
All I can do this a.m. is shake my head.
It truly was the worst, most boring SB game ever. I should have stuck to my original plan and skipped it.
@GoPats I know you're happy... So to you I say, Congrats. They got it done, but Tom is showing his age. He should have looked much better than he did. In the end, I guess he did what needed to be done to get them down the field, I just don't see him continuing much longer. An opposing team led by a more experienced QB like Brees would surely have scored more than 3 pts..
Pats got the win. Another ugly boring game.
3 hours ago, Coltsman1788 said:To the good Pats fans who frequent this forum (GoPats, Jim Jaime, etc.) congrats to you (yet again)....sincerely. But you will have to pardon my never ending vitriol for your team. Still I know that there are still some good people who root them on so yeah... Enjoy for as long as it lasts because when it’s gone...it’s gone.
Thank you both for the gracious and classy congrats. I appreciate it and won’t ever forget it.
Not exactly the type of game anyone expected but it was kind of fun to see the defenses battling it out. I’m currently in Hawaii with my wife and kids, and ended up watching from a poolside bar with a few Pats fans we met. I highly recommend it! Lol...
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15 hours ago, dodsworth said:
Apathy has set in for a lot of fans about the Pats being in the
SB every year, and I hope your Sunday royally sucks...
Well... thanks? I guess? LOL...
1 hour ago, Coltsfan1953 said:Take me with you, I'll root for the Patriots ... jk even a trip to Hawaii couldn't make me root for the pats.
It would be a long, difficult trip in a suitcase anyway!
This is what a forum should be.
Inman signs with the patriots
in NFL General
Posted
You guys nailed this on the head.
The Patriots signed this guy so they could get some inside info on a team that hasn't beaten them since 2009.