tonychen
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Posts posted by tonychen
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If you are a pats fan, why are you here?
never a pats fan but just talking about some facts. but if the word fanatic stands for "marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion" than I am not a fan for either Brady or Manning now, although I admit I was Manning's fan before Saturday for 10 yrs.
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True. But, co-incidence or lack of "luck", here are some numbers to chew on:
2007 Chargers playoff game - Peyton gave the Colts the lead 24-21 in the 4th qtr.
2008 Chargers playoff game - with 2 minutes to go, Peyton and the Colts had the lead 17-14 before the infamous sack
2009 Saints SB - Peyton and the Colts had the lead in the 4th qtr. 17-16 before a missed FG, and the wheels came off
2010 Jets playoff game - Peyton and the Colts had the lead 16-14 with 53 seconds to go
2012 Broncos playoff game - Peyton and the Broncos had the lead 35-28 with 70 yards to go for Flacco with 40 seconds to go
So, the bottomline is, it does not matter what Peyton did to give his team the lead in the 4th qtr., he still has to do more.
Not saying Peyton is not at fault but just pointing these out. ;)
I think as you said he still needed to do more. If co-incidence or lack of "luck" happens so many times, we just cannot call them co-incidence, especially after the conditions are changed say he has switched to a team that could give him a free 14 pts from returns.
Yesterday Texans did have a strong comeback toward the end of the game, making TDs and 2pt conversions successfully. Pats defense did not do very well in that drive. But Brady at the time had already cashed in all those opportunities to score and they already built a 3 score lead. This is clutch QBing.
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Terry Bradshaw is the greatest QB of all time.
post season QB rating
1 Aaron Rodgers 105.4
2 Bart Starr 104.8
3 Drew Brees 103.9
4 Kurt Warner 102.8
5 Joe Montana 95.6
6 Mark Sanchez 94.3
7 Ken Anderson 93.5
8 Joe Theismann 91.4
9 Eli Manning 89.3
10 Peyton Manning 88.4
11 Troy Aikman 88.3
12 Tom Brady 87.8
13 Brett Favre 86.3
14 Steve Young 85.8
15 Warren Moon 84.9
So you mean Mark Sanchez is the 6th best QB?
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Peyton Manning has a career post season passer rating of 88.3.
Tom Brady has a career post season passer rating of 86.0.
Discuss.
One is leading career post season losses,
one is leading career post season wins,
discuss
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I think they might go after Austin..
Exactly what I thought about. The thing is whether he could play again.
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The problem here is that you made a statement and are now back-tracking to substantiate it.
So by this logic, any playoff loss is a choke, unless you're supposed to lose?
How many of Manning's 10 playoff losses with Indy were games in which the Colts were favored? Because I'm pretty sure the Broncos were 9.5 point favorites Saturday. So that's 0-for-1, plus those Indy games.
If you really feel that way, then you must have a very low opinion of Manning, which I'm betting you do not.
I am pretty sure in all his 1-and-dones in the past 6 yrs his team was favored. The closest might be the 08 OT loss to Chargers.
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The word was, Manning was willing to work with Mike Shanahan, who worked with Elway later in his career. One would assume Mike Shanahan is flexible, and a good playcaller, adapting to his QB's strengths. Once the Redskins moved ahead for the trade, Peyton was bummed. I do think he was serious about playing lil bro in the same division, contrary to what people said.
Maybe they were scared by McNabb's bad time there? Or they saw more long-term value in RGIII than Manning? This justifies Colts decision to take Luck over keeping Manning.
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That is where Peyton needs an aggressive playcaller who tells him otherwise and just go out and execute what is called. Only a few of them are out there - Sean Payton, Bruce Arians, Mike McCarthy, anyone that plays for Belichick or Parcells, guys that have the moxy to seize the bull by the horns and get it done, IMO. On the other hand, you could have an old school guy like Tom Coughlin trust his guys on D and his guys on D come through for him. But it is few and far between, IMO. You still need the QB pulling the trigger to make the key play in a key situation, has been the case for an old school guy like Coughlin too with Eli.
The thing is could Manning be willing to work with such a coach? In the major part of his career he has been surrounded by the same kind of soft-talking coaches who look like dummies in big games. You can blame the coaches if Manning couldn't select who to work with. Ironically he avoided the strong personalities when he was given a chance to decide where to go, like he turned down the SF offer even though that team could almost garantee him a spot in the championship game. This makes me think choosing Caldwell after Dungy was also what Manning liked at first.
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But in all honesty, what's the difference between losing the AFCCG and losing in the divisional ? You get no trophy and no consolation prize . The only that changes is the draft position. Jim Kelly has a ton of playoff wins but no trophys to show for it. Does that make him one of the all time greats or a choker? I'll leave that one for you to decide.
You might be right to some extent, since eventually only 1 team will be happy if all teams set winning the SB as their ultimate goal. But losing as the top seed and having tons of opportunities to win but blowing it out in the first playoff game sure qualifies as a choker more than losing to a better team in the Super Bowl.
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that he wants matt schaub
Believe me he could get Schaub a SB ring as well.
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You're legacy is never written until you have retired...
Remember..Elway was considered a playoff loser until his last 2 seasons..
The thing is Manning really has only 1-2 yrs left. The way he switched to a new team was a good chance to show he could win big games with better support but this epic opportunity was just wasted. The case for Elway was he had some strong running game arround him in the last 2 seasons. For Manning I don't think he and his team are willing to deviated from what he has been doing and add anything that could improve the stablibty of the system but could need him to resign from his role as a OC on the field.
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So how about giving up the idea of being QB and OC at the same time, get some capable coaches who calls most of the plays and let Manning focus on simpler audibles and execution? How about getting the HC and both OC and DC together with Manning to make a more detailed and diversified game plan? How about letting Manning play QB in a team like the SF49ers - just be a piece of the system?
However, I see Manning as a super hero who always want to fight his own battle. In his case the team is second to his heroics, even though his magics often dimminish in the playoffs when the other side is out-smarting him.
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not to mention champ bailey...but yea it was all 18 fault or the missed field goal
Not to mention when he was with the Colts he had a drunk kicker, a non-existing special team, a poruous defense, an OL that could not black, a group of WRs dropping easy catches, and running backs that could not convert 3rd-and-1.
If this keeps happening every single time, even after he switches to a new team, I would have to say the guy is really ill-fated.
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The fact remains though that Peyton is somewhat post-season challenged. To Peyton's credit, he did get his team "to the table" as Go Pats puts it twice. Nevertheless, the facts speak for themselves at this point. It is not entirely on Peyton but he does have to bear his share of the responsibility for his teams going one and done a record 8 times. Before, many criticized the Colts talent or lack thereof and said it was the team's fault or the coaches' fault for holding him back. Now with a "supposedly superior" overall Broncos team around him...yet another one and done for Peyton. You really do have to wonder at this point if you haven't been objective enough to do so before. IMO to continue to just make excuse after excuse for Peyton's post season frustrations just gets old and risks making one look delusional. It's time to just accept it for what it is...I do and yes I still love Peyton. The best argument that can be made for Peyton at this point is one that Peyton really has to make for himself going forward. He's probably got a couple of years left to offer his own rebuttal.
You are totally right. I used to say his team and coaches held him back in the past, but the fact is having the best AFC regular season defense (although they did collapse on their side) and a real deal of return game and a group of talented receivers and running backs still couldn't overcome the challenges. The coaching group that was smart enough to put Tim Tebow into the playoff and even won a game looked like a bunch of dummies and they looked identical to the poor Jim Caldwell and crews after the 2009 SB loss 2010 playoff loss.
I just couldn't help thinking, maybe Manning's role as a QB and OC on the field isn't good enough to win playoff games consistently. Playoff games are extremely intense, and I can see many smart people doing either job extremely well but nobody other than Manning even try to play both at the same time. If guys like Sean Payton and Drew Brees can work toghether on a scheme, I can see why it outplays Manning's.
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Upon further review, NFL General needs to be renamed to Broncos/Peyton General.
This is NFL general on Colts forum, no wonder.
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Of course you are correct......
But I know you understand how the game is...
When its tied and one QB thows an interception that even he admits is all on him...
..and the other team simply kicks a field goal..the QB must accept the blame. Its on him.
Nobody Titans Champ Bailey's won-loss record...
Its on Peyton...no matter how many yards and TDs he threw for in regulation...
I know you know this
You nailed it. And indeed he had plenty of chances to give his team a two score lead thanks to the 2 return TDs by Holiday (Indy team could never do him this kind of favor) and he had three drives in OT to drive into FG range to win.
Brady needed a couple of field goals to win his 2 rings out of the three and he delivered each time.
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There are several things to look at in a TEAM game.
Peyton does turn it over more than Brady but the points that result from his turnovers has to be analyzed and as much as his offense has been successful for the last decade, and benefits from great route running and execution, it calls for more perfection than humanly possible against the best playoff Ds and results in more points than most QBs I have seen in playoff history.
However, his legacy is that of a QB with limitations in arm strength overcome with accuracy and anticipation, having to take more chances because he cant gun it or sneak it in like Brady, or make plays out of the pocket like Big Ben or Rodgers. The results manifest from those limitations, objectively speaking.
This is one of the most objective comments on Manning's legacy. I agree with most. On the other hand, for manning to eventually overcome the weaknesses and win big games, I expect him to actively seeking for more options other than sticking with his same strategies for yrs. however, it looks like he is only transferring his system even when he goes to a new team and gave up infusing that team's elements very quickly.
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How many of then had three td passes
Don't need them all to be passes. If they can score rushing td when the QBs drove them near the end zone I believe the qb already did his job. It just happened that manning opted to throw in this past game. He let his rbs score twice in their last meeting with ravens but had only 1 passing td but I still think he played much better in that regular season game.
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The pick six hit Decker right in the hands and his arm was being held by the defender.. How is that on Peyton.. Peyton had three td passes against the ravens. How many qbs have been able to do that this season?
If you talk about driving for 3 TDs to beat the ravens this season, sorry its not like they are holding AFCs best record. Mike Vick, Brady, Schaub and even Charlie batch all had nice games against them, with the first two winning when the ravens were completely healthy.
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Not to mention blowing an 18 point lead to the colts in 2006
Now you don't think it's the pats defense blowing it? I believe after leading by 21-6 in the first half Brady scored another 13 pts in the second. Using you guys' logic 34 pts is enough for the qb to be immune from blames. Actually Brady didn't turn the ball over until desperation time.
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One and dones are irrelevant to me if the other side doesn't win the Super Bowl. Brady could lose this weekend to the ravens and he will be watching the Super Bowl on the couch like Peyton. Doesn't matter if he won one more game and still get knocked out in my mind. Just dropping down on the draft board is all.
After 2006, Brady and co. Have come annual playoff chokers. It's just a matter of what round.
If you say one and done doesn't matter then I have no argument. How about Manning's regular season success isn't more impressive than Brady's record as far as both teams generally makes the playoff?
You showed me your blinded love to your hero. Impressive.
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I agree. He has some blame no doubt
Just some blame? Imagine if it's not Manning but some other qb having the 3 turnovers resulting in 17 pts and end he big game with an int, would there be anybody trying this hard to find excuses for him?
I don't really understand why this is happening so many times - if a player's teammates continuously fails him in big games and when he finally switches to a new team the exact things happen again, I would think he has more than some blames in the issue.
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For all the talk about Brady's playoff success, he is now the one to choke in big moments.
2007- Leading an NFL RECORD SETTING OFFENSE ALL REGULAR SEASON, Tom Brady and the pats were undefeated in the Super Bowl against a #5 seed. Brady and co. Could only muster up two touchdowns with one coming late in the game.
2009- got blown out at home against a underdog ravens team.
2010- go one and done against a jets team they blew out 45-3 in the regular season in the same building.
2011- find a way to lose to Eli again in the Super Bowl after being favored again.
So for all the talk of manning being a playoff failure, Brady sure has plenty of failures as well. There's a reason why the patriots haven't won a Super Bowl since spygate.
Talking about failures, during the same period, Brady has been 4-5 with 2 1-and-dones, manning is 2-5 with 4 1-and-dones. Not to mention before 06 it was not even close.
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The Broncos defense didn't and that's why they lost the game. This is the big hypocrisy if the DB blocks or intercepts the pass then right now we're sitting here talking about a much anticipated Brady-Manning match-up. We're talking about how clutch Peyton was to put the Broncos up with 3 minutes left. But no, the Denver defense gives up a 70 yard bomb and Peyton is the one who choked...
Did that last min td end the game? What was the play that actually ended tha game?
Manning's legacy is a done deal now - Greatest only in regular season
in NFL General
Posted
Maybe I was overreacting since I rooted for Manning for such a long time and always trying to find reasons for his failures and indeed hated to see him blow perhaps the best and last chance to win the second SB in his career. But even if this was overreacting it's still more objective than some blinded fans who are still trying to find excuses for their hero who cannot do anything wrong.