Larry Horseman
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Posts posted by Larry Horseman
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I think Grigson has done great, average, and bad, depending on the context. You can say that about any GM in the league. I'm not willing to say in Week 4 of the 4th year of a complete rebuild that he should be fired based on his performance to date. I will hold judgement until further along in the year or end of year. Right now, I am willing to say that he should be (and I believe is) on the hot seat.
I'm not sure there is any context that will allow you to say he's done great. It's fairly obvious that this team has overachieved despite the lack of overall talent. Luck is clearly one of those players that can carry a team to the post-season, much like how Manning and other great QB's have done at various points in their careers. When you couple this with the rumors floating around that he runs the coaching staff as well, it makes him more responsible for the failures.
Re: defensive game changers. The Colts need that at LB, especially rush LB. I think there is a lot of promise in other areas on the defense, including at MLB with Irvin and Moore. Again, this doesn't happen overnight and Grigs should be criticized for the Werner pick and Trich trade, both of which negated a chance in the draft to add game changers (Werner is serviceable but not what the Colts and fans hoped he would be).
Irvin and Moore have played zero, if any snaps at all to dictate you saying that. Now, can they be better options than DQ or Freeman? Possibly. But there isn't any case to prove that yet. I could understand you talking about "overnight" back in 2013 or even last year, but you can tell that the same issues that fatally doomed this team since Grigson took over are still present (lack of playmakers on defense and horrendous offensive line play).
You're point on turnover/continuity is unrealistic--injuries, FA, upgrades, etc. happen. The core needs to stay consistent and Grigs is trending in the right direction on this. Parts of the roster inevitably churn. Part of continuity is not making quick decisions to fire coaches and FO.
Do me a favor. Take a look at the Colts offensive line and tell me how many players have turned over on those positions since 2012. Castanzo has remained the lone constant. Grigson has managed to get only 1 good offensive linemen in 4 years. I get you want to have continuity but this team is in the midst of a season that has Super Bowl expectations after having 3 years to rebuild.
Our once in a generation QB didn't look like once in a generation until the 12th quarter of the year. Much of that was on him and that is not Grigs fault (yes, the OL didn't help but Luck left plenty of plays on the field). The Colts would be at least 2-1 if Luck played average and/or the game plans put him in a better position to succeed.
And how many times has Luck's pocket awareness and overall skill put the Colts in a position to win over the past 3 years? Luck has struggled to start the season I agree but if the team requires him to play amazing to win all the time, there is a problem.
You can call me crazy, but if the current starting O-line stays healthy, I think by mid season they will be more than adequate, which is good enough in the 2015 NFL.
It's possible. Let's just hope that Luck stays healthy too.
I don't have time to respond to all of this and won't be back on for a while. Thanks for a good debate. A few quick points, this year is big for Grigs and Pagano. Again, I keep using hot seat, not fire them. Let's let it ride out...remember how bad NE and GB looked through 4 weeks last year? Moore and Irvin are getting healthy and learning the system....they should get more snaps as the year goes on. Again, I'm not defending the OL. It is an issue, but the issue is compounded by bad schemes, bad QB decision making, and overall poor execution by the rest of the offense. I think Luck is great and am not down on him....that said, he has been terrible for 11 of 12 quarters this year. Better schemes on offense wouldn't require him to play amazing to be successful. RB and WR screenings, short slants, short hot reads to RBs and TEs, etc. would make his life easier and the Colts have the speed and skill to turn those small plays into big gains. If these type of plays start making an appearance, the offense will be more efficient, the deep passes will open up, and the OL will look fine as a result.
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Toler has been a positive but in my eyes, it doesn't matter how good you are, if you can't stay healthy you aren't contributing. Case in point being Vick Ballard. But see, that's the problem because the drafted talent hasn't developed really at all at some of the most important positions on the roster. What's worse, is that none of the defensive talent outside of Vontae Davis is a true game-changer. I don't count Mathis being he is from the old regime.
People don't seem to realize that when you invest in a player via either the draft or free agency, if they don't pan out for your team, it's hurting it.You can't keep having a revolving door and expect any level of continuity to develop.
If you are saying Grigson has done average then that doesn't cut it. When you have a once in a generation QB, average is not going to win you championships.
I think Grigson has done great, average, and bad, depending on the context. You can say that about any GM in the league. I'm not willing to say in Week 4 of the 4th year of a complete rebuild that he should be fired based on his performance to date. I will hold judgement until further along in the year or end of year. Right now, I am willing to say that he should be (and I believe is) on the hot seat.
Re: defensive game changers. The Colts need that at LB, especially rush LB. I think there is a lot of promise in other areas on the defense, including at MLB with Irvin and Moore. Again, this doesn't happen overnight and Grigs should be criticized for the Werner pick and Trich trade, both of which negated a chance in the draft to add game changers (Werner is serviceable but not what the Colts and fans hoped he would be).
You're point on turnover/continuity is unrealistic--injuries, FA, upgrades, etc. happen. The core needs to stay consistent and Grigs is trending in the right direction on this. Parts of the roster inevitably churn. Part of continuity is not making quick decisions to fire coaches and FO.
Our once in a generation QB didn't look like once in a generation until the 12th quarter of the year. Much of that was on him and that is not Grigs fault (yes, the OL didn't help but Luck left plenty of plays on the field). The Colts would be at least 2-1 if Luck played average and/or the game plans put him in a better position to succeed.
You can call me crazy, but if the current starting O-line stays healthy, I think by mid season they will be more than adequate, which is good enough in the 2015 NFL.
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Yeah, every NFL roster has average players. Some have more as backups while others have them all across their defense and offensive line like the Colts do. Let's look at that 2013 free agent class you talked about:
Donald Thomas (Solid when healthy but isn't on team anymore)
Aubrayo Franklin (no longer on team and did not contribute much when here)
Hasselbeck (Colts may need him on Sunday so this is a good signing)
Toler (love him when he's healthy but he hasn't been healthy for the most part)
Butler (good nickel CB)
Landry (no comment needed)
Cherilus (Not even on team anymore and was way overpaid)
RJF (no longer on team)
Havili (no longer on team)
Walden (neutral and overpaid)
So over half of those free agents aren't on the team anymore and were actually brought in to contribute. It appears that the stop-gap players outside of Walden are the ones still on the roster...
Butler and Toler aren't meant to be stop gaps (Butler was when first signed but quickly turned into a good nickle corner). GC and Landry weren't either...they are failures. Toler has struggled with injury but overall I see him as a positive. Ideally, FA is used at a minimum to supplement weak spots in the roster while drafted talent is developed. The Colts roster was so lacking in talent and depth, and after 2012, the FO and staff realized they could win now, so they forced the issue. The depth/talent was compounded by switching to a completely new defense (hence, Franklin). Could Grigs have done better? Yes. That said, if you consider the context and put everything into perspective, his failure has been on OL and LB. Should he be criticized for that? Yes. Should he be on the hot seat? Yes. Should he be fired? TBD...let's see how this year plays out.
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Neutral doesn't mean good. You can't build a contender with a bunch of average players, especially ones at starting positions. And please, don't come back and tell me "well the pats did it". The Patriots have good players and their coach acts as their GM so he is able to get a better fit for his system when he's the one making the calls. I get some of the players were stop-gap players but outside of 2012, the use of stop-gap players should've well, stopped.
At this point, he's had ample time, money and draft picks to keep the franchise QB upright and he has simply failed to get the job done. Time for a change.
Neutral also doesn't mean bad. Every NFL roster has average players. Stop making it seem like every GM hits on every move with great players. Also, you generally miss the concept of roster building if you think that the 2013 FA haul of stop-gaps wasn't necessary.
Again, I'm not approving of Grigs failure to build the OL. At this point, OL and LB are the weaknesses (and MLB may have its answers on the roster). Outside of those position groups, he has done fine (prior to this year, I would have put DL as a weakness but that does not currently look like the case).
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Bad:
Holmes (bad): Not bad, average.
RJF (bad and no longer with team): Stop gap that in no way, shape or form, hurt the team. Neutral at worst.
Landry (bad and no longer with team): Terrible
Louis (bad): Agree
Herremans (bad): Agree after three games but could change. Fine depth, but obviously not a starter, which Grigs should have picked up.
Cherilus (didnt stay healthy): Agree. Was fine for a couple years. Large contract that didn't kill the cap even with dead money.
Thomas (didnt stay healthy): Agree. Again, not a starter which Grigs needed to get.
Avery (bad and no longer on team): Nothing bad about Avery. Come on. He was just fine as a one year player. Neutral at worst.
DHB (bad and no longer on team): Agree
Chapman (bad and no longer on team): Perhaps bad, perhaps neutral.
Montori Hughes (bad and no longer on team): Agree
Zibokwoski (sp?) (Bad and no longer on team): One-year stop gap with no available cap space cannot be considered bad. He was a body that knew Pagano's system and wasn't intended to be anything aside from that. Neutral.
Satelle (bad and no longer on team): Agree. During 2012, he played bad, but again, cap hampered ability to do much in FA.
Good to Solid:
Luck (duh)
Hilton
Fleener
Allen
Davis (via trade)
Moncrief
Lowery
Adams
Gore
Mewhort
I'm sure I'm forgetting players but this was just off the top of my head.
But really, the main issue is that none of the good to solid players he's gotten are on the offensive line outside of Mewhort.
I agree Grigs has failed with his OL moves, but to say he has been more bad than good looking at the overall roster is just false. You also have to consider 2012 was a cap disaster and many of his FA signings (Laron and GC being exceptions) were meant to be stop gap band-aids while depth and future starters were acquired via the draft.
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Grigson is a bad GM lol and this team has tons of holes and lacks talent in a lot of areas
How many times can you say the same thing in multiple times in multiple threads?
And, Grigson is not a bad GM. Is he great? No. He's middle of the road at this point. There is a lot of good he has done building a roster from scratch in four off seasons. There is also bad. Perhaps you should make a list of positive and negatives for us and then argue why he is bad, instead of just spewing the same one sentence negative posts all over the board.
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My opinion about this line is that the staff thinks 1) they are the 5 best OL on the roster; 2) Reitz is better at RT (than LG); and 3) JM is better at LG (than RT). I don't disagree with any of that...the Reitz vs. JM discussion is interesting and a case can be made to start either one of them at either position. I also think if everyone stays healthy, by midway point of the season, this will actually be an effective line-up. I, too, am interested in Good but he only cracks the line-up this year with two or three injuries, and I'm just fine with that.
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"Yeah, it's a totally awesome story. I wrote a note and put it on my desk and it says 'Protect 12' and that is gonna totally motivate me to build the best OL ever. Then I can tell everyone I wrote myself a note to remind myself to protect Luck. Just imagine all the cool stories people will write about me. I can't wait to tell everyone about my totally awesome story. Also, you're going to have to take out a more competent player and play the guy I like because I want people to talk about how I find great diamonds in the rough and how I'm the best GM ever."
Yawn. Do you really need to beat this drum so often?
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My apologies I was basing it on the article. I didn't hear Pagano speak myself.
No worries...sorry if that came across rude. I read it from a few sources on twitter so I didn't actually hear him speak either.
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Worth noting...
Backup #Colts QB Matt Hasselbeck said it's not the first time Andrew Luck has been asked to rest, it's just first time No. 12 has done it.
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I like another "subtle" shot a Grigson here
"When asked which game Luck injured his shoulder, Pagano replied, "pick one."
It was which play, not game. Pagano was explicit that it happened against Tennessee. So he replied, pick one (play).
Obviously this is what he has to say or the Colts would be subject to a fine due to not reporting injury. That said, let's be sure to hold ourselves accountable to what Pagano actually said.
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Wait, so we don't need to panic? I'm so confused. Somebody tell me how to feel.
Panic, obviously.
ok if that is standard practice for Grigson then why no QB on the squad until now and why Tanney since he wasnt just released, it was on September 8th
I don't know. Did you ever think that perhaps they didn't like any options prior to Tanney being available and they wanted to sign him once he was available but didn't have room on the PS because of other injuries/priorities up until this week (when apparently Price was injured so they could IR him to clear a spot)?
If Luck is hurt bad enough for them to need to sign a PS QB then he will be on the injury report, or else the Colts are going to end up with a huge fine.
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but like i said there were recent years we did not carry one. Keep in mind the subject here. Luck may be injured and we sign a QB the week after he supposedly got hurt. That is the issue
Willy was only on our practice squad from December 9th to the end of the season so only 5 games. so for 11 games in 2009 we didnt carry a QB on the practice squad
Jarrett Brown was on and off our practice squad in 2011
so bottom line, during the last 5 years we have not had a QB on our practice Squad in less than 1/2 of our last 67 games
so "officially" odd we signed on this week
What happened before 2012 doesn't matter...only data that is relevant is Grigson era (2012-2015). Harnish was on PS in 2012 and 13. Matthews was on it in 2014. The point is that each year under Grigs, there has been a QB on the PS at some point.
Luck could be hurt and obviously the timing is dubious considering the rumors. That said, it isn't unusual for the Colts to have a QB on the PS...they actually do more often than not.
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Why are you asking me why?
I've only stated it in every post I've made.
Because two games doesn't reveal much yet.
You're free to disagree. But I don't take two games all that seriously.
Tell that to the poster who starrted a thread asking if Henry Anderson could be the Defensive Rookie of the Year, and he asked it after game 1.
That's the kind of thing that stories like this lead to. Reactions like that from posters who simply don't know better.
Sort of like your overreaction to the story and this thread? What's the difference? Calm down man...it is a story...stop being over the top.
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I **hate** click bait. I hate stories that generate heat but little light. I hate stories that take advantage of the reader because they're misleading. And to me, that's what click bait stories are. Maybe Anderson and Parry end up being great? I'll be beyond thrilled for the Colts and them. But maybe they come down to Planet Earth. Some rookies on that list might just do that..... it wouldn't be the first time something like that happens.
Did you even read the article? It is hardly click bait. It is the start of a rolling ranking of rookies using data. In fact, the author makes the shortcomings very clear:
"The volatile nature of the NFL to base these rankings must be considered as well. The players listed in the following slides, nonetheless, are the ones who stood out the most during the first two weeks of football."
You can choose to feel that ranking rookies starting in week 1 is meaningless, but some perhaps enjoy it. To your other point, by week 4 or 8, you will be fine with the rolling article. So why have you dug your heals in the ground so deeply?
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According to Pagano, Luck checked out of run plays because Buff had a loaded box. So, I think it is uneducated to completely throw the Colts staff under the bus. Luck deserves part of the blame for the poor offensive showing, as do Pags, Pep, Chud, Clyde, and other players.
I'm not bashing Luck, I just think people need to realize that Luck is part of the problem...he is also the solution and will be in Indy for a while.
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In "Madden", he's also between 1 and 2 inches tall, depending on your television size.
Also; What the hell is wrong with Millennials?
Text me and we'll discuss...
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Glad this is done....looks to be a good deal for both sides. As always, will be interested to see the specifics.
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Sports Illustrated predicts 11-5. And they give a game by game breakdown.
Just click on the link:
http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/09/08/nfl-predictions-2015-picks-afc-south?xid=nl_siextra
Me? I'm predicting 12-4, but our defensive issues (very thin DL) is very troublesome.
I have a hard time seeing the Colts drop 3 home games (I think we win one or two out of Pitt, Den, NE).
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I doubt he's gonna play every down even if he does play. If he gets 5-10 snaps then that's WAY more than I would have expected a month ago.
Like 5-10 more? Sorry, couldn't help myself...
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I'm wondering if we go more 4-3 or 5-2 with Cole playing hand in dirt and Mathis at rush LB? That would help explain moves on DL. Just a thought...
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No downside to this trade. Nice move. I hope he can flash for the horse like he did in the bay.
On another note, how does this thread turn into hate on Werner? There's other threads for that, but I guess he's the new whipping boy...
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Tim Jennings. From forum whipping boy to a FA to sign. You all are great!
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http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/t.y.-hilton/
This is a six year, $66.5m contract ($11.08m/year). Fully guaranteed at signing is $11m (signing bonus of $10m + new base salary in 2015 of $1m). The rest of the guaranteed money kicks in year by year. Guaranteed for injury is an additional $28m, so if Hilton suffers a career ending injury, then he gets all of that. Decision points basically every year, due to the rolling guarantee structure, but mostly in 2019 when his salary jumps to $13m but his dead money would only be $2m.
Because the signing bonus isn't outrageous, this contract can easily be restructured as time goes on. But they've kept the same basic structure as previous contracts.
That's a solid deal for both sides. I really don't understand why folks are complaining about it.
Colts sign QB Josh Johnson. Waive CB Shaun Prater
in Colts Football
Posted
Exactly--context and perspective seem to go out the window around here. Either it is fire Grigson, or you are a blind Grigson homer. Football, and life in general, aren't that black and white.