Jason_

I did call it what I wanted and I'd do it again. Also, I've looked at all of the facts for far longer than 2 seconds. You can no more prove that it didn't happen than anyone can prove that it did. Plain and simple. I addressed this in my first post on the subject. Feel free to reread it. Did Christiansen get fired? No. And again, Caldwell did not get fired until AFTER Spags turned down the opportunity to be Caldwell's defensive coordinator. Bill Polian retired. If you saw Superman's question then you should have also seen my response to him about it. No you don't. You just need them to call the plays that are called. Essentially the only point I've been trying to make is that this part is simply not true. It does not require an entire team or even the entire staff. Less than a handful of people could have made it happen. ;)

Kinda feels like your just being pedantic

Why would a GM, Ballard in particular, hire a HC if he (Ballard) doesn't agree with the schemes that HC wants to run?

sorry, but I think that's very naive on your part. Also, one big difference is that flat earthers truly believe that the earth is flat. I've said repeatedly that I just can't completely discount this. That in itself is a pretty big difference.

That's fine....but there have been a number of conspiracies throughout history far more outlandish than this one that people said the same thing about and they were eventually proven true. Obviously there are far, FAR more that have not been proven true...but still. Oh and you can keep that moon property for yourself.

I totally get that. I also want to reiterate that I don't think that this happened, but rather I'm not completely convinced it didn't. Also, it could have been as simple as Irsay saying something like, "hmm, let's no try too hard" because it was pretty obvious they didn't really NEED to try too hard to lose lol. just, for the record, I've never made that argument. One thing I will point out though is that with painter, the offense still looked like the Peyton offense. 3+ WR sets, same playcalls etc. Once Orlovsky took over there was a lot more I formation, a more simplistic offense. It just seemed like they were expecting Painter to make the same reads and plays that Peyton would make and only changed that up when Dan took over. Obviously that was 13 years ago...but that was a strong feeling I had at the time. If they hadn't tried to bring back Caldwell and did actually bring back Christiansen then I don't think this would have even occurred to me as a possibility. But that, plus the defensive playcalling and the comments made by Coyer after being fired....there was just too much there to not at least be suspicious.

If he does that then he acknowledges that he was in on it too and then he likely never works in the league again.

I don't think it's absolutely necessary that he had to be in on it. Irsay could have had a conversation directly with Caldwell. However, I could see a more likely scenario where, after Collins got hurt, Irsay sits Polian down for a conversation about the state of the roster. They agree it's time to part ways at the end of the season. Polian's ready to retire anyway, but Irsay has no problem firing him instead so that Polian still gets paid. A favor for so many years of service and the success he helped bring to the city. Oh, I have been meaning to add though that your previous point about, why replace painter at all, is a very good point, and I can only think of 2 admittedly flimsy possibilities...1 being that Painter got banged up and wasn't totally healthy. The other far less likely possibility being that TPTB wanted to show the fans and/or the league that they were still "trying". I don't think that is the case though because, at that point why even bother?

sounds kinky

I'm not disputing that at all. I'm only saying that it wouldn't have required nearly as many people as most claim it would have and it's not as far fetched as those same people believe. Sure I could see Ballard being angry if he had not been included in the decision. The original post I responded to said "it didn't seem as though Ballard wanted to fire Frank". Perhaps I misinterpreted what you meant, but I do think that Ballard was ready to fire Frank and probably had been. But I could see him not agreeing with the timing and even moreso the Saturday decision.

My interpretation of it was that the "spirited" discussions were about Saturday being the replacement. I could obviously be wrong.

No matter what kind of control freak Polian was, Irsay could still do whatever he wanted with or without including Polian in the decision. It's also entirely possible Polian also saw the mess that the roster had become and decided that was going to be his last year. He and Irsay agree it's time for both to move on. Polian says he'll resign. Irsay says don't do that, I'll fire you that way you still get paid. Seems like something the guy who opted not to go after any of Luck's money would do.

ok...so you remember there being speculation. I honestly do not. Still though, that's not quite the same as what you originally said. I also don't believe that. If anything, I believe that Ballard would have fired Reich sooner if he'd been able to. This, of course, is just speculation on my part.

Wait where did that come from?

wouldn't be the strangest thing to ever happen 😝

also, didn't Caserio get a little bit of help from the Browns?

Was Welker a rookie at the time?

hey, if the mods wanted to re-enable the laughing reaction just for that post, I would not take any offense whatsoever lol

So here are the couple of reasons why I can't completely rule it out. First, you don't really need all that many people involved. It could have been done with only 3 people and a mandate to a 4th (more on that in a sec). The 3 people would be Irsay, Caldwell and Christiansen. I do think they all thought they could be competitive with Kerry Collins, but that crashed and burned pretty quickly and it became pretty apparent that the roster wasn't quite as good as a lot of people had previously believed. At this point, Irsay realizes it's time to move on from Polian and do a pretty hefty overhaul of the roster, but he does believe in Caldwell and Christiansen so he plans to keep them. He tells them to just make sure the offense doesn't get on any kind of a roll. He also tells Caldwell to make sure Coyer doesn't get creative or blitz. Also, Caldwell was still the HC when Irsay hired Grigson. Once Grigson was hired, both Caldwell and Christiansen were still the HC and OC. In fact, both Grigson and Caldwell interviewed Steve Spagnuolo to be the new DC. Rumors were that Spags perhaps showed interest in the job but he would in no way work under Caldwell. It wasn't long after that interview took place that Caldwell was also fired. As for Christiansen, he was the one member of the coaching staff that was retained for 2012, though he was moved from OC to QB coach. Remember, after Coyer was fired, he gave an interview where he said his playcalling was handcuffed and that he was told he wasn't allowed to blitz. Said something about it being an organizational mandate or something like that. I remember the defensive playcalling that season very vividly. It was only a few games into the season when it was starting to infuriate me how often I saw them running Tampa 2 coverage. Every team runs Tampa 2 coverage sometimes, not just teams that are designated as a tampa 2 defense. I started keeping an excel spreadsheet tracking every defensive playcall in every colts game. The amount of time they were in tampa 2 coverage was ridiculous and we had discussions about it here. Towards the end of the season, during one of the games, the announcers even started talking about it and a graphic was put on screen showing the top 5 teams than ran tamp 2 coverage the most. The team that ran tampa 2 coverage the 2nd most frequently ran it on around 20-22% of the time. Numbers 3, 4 and 5 were also in the low 20%. The Colts were number 1 at something well over 55-60% of the time. So, was Coyer's playcalling handcuffed to ensure the defense would be as bland and predictable (and therefore ineffective) as possible? Or had he just become an incompetent DC by that point? Not saying it did happen, but I also can't say that it didn't and I don't think it's as far fetched an idea as some would think. Take that for what it's worth.

If there was pressure, I'd assume it was to try to maximize Luck's rookie contract.

When you're talking about the difference between Peyton Manning and Curtis Painter then yes, I do think that can be the sole reason for the 8 win discrepancy. HOWEVER, having said that, I've never been fully convinced that there wasn't some help from the 2 members of the coaching staff that they tried to retain...Caldwell and Christiansen.

like I said before...fundamental disagreement. I agree that that is Ballard's job 99% of the time. The QB position being the one exception. I also never suggested to absolve Ballard. But those decisions you're referring to were never his alone to make. more below: again. you're also leaving Irsay out of the equation. Irsay has always been heavily involved in those most important of decisions, particularly related to the HC and QB positions. they don't sign Rivers or trade for Wentz without Irsay's approval. who convinced who of what is something we'll never know 100%. IMO, it makes sense that they would all have been on board with Rivers. Wentz is where the divide started imo. I believe that Reich was the one pounding the table for Wentz and both Ballard and Irsay ultimately acquiesced...in what order they acquiesced we'll never know.

I do remember reading about it after the Colts traded Wentz...but I remember it differently. Besides, like you said it could be revisionist history. The reports also could have been more speculation that actual reports. In my opinion, the most logical explanation is that both Ballard and Irsay preferred to draft a QB, but Reich wanted Wentz and had to convince both Ballard and Irsay. I wouldn't doubt if he had to convince Ballard first, but ultimately I believe he'd have had to convince them both. This is also something I don't fault Ballard for. Like I said earlier in the thread, if you hire a former QB as your offensive minded HC, the ONE position where that HC should get the most say is at QB. The biggest mistake I feel that has been made by Ballard (and Irsay by extension) is keeping Reich around too long. IMO he should have been let go when Wentz was traded. Reich got the guy he wanted, that he believed in and it didn't work. I'd have shown them both the door.