da_pats_troll
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Posts posted by da_pats_troll
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You and go Pats have been pretty cool throughout this. Nothing like most of the others.
My question to you is where does this attendant figure in with the science that BB so kindly provided us with ? BTW .. the most ridiculous part of that pressor was saying they (BB) found that rubbing the balls increased the PSI by a point. The representative from Wilson BTW is saying that's absurd also.
Thanks. I am fan of football first, and my favorite team happens to the Patriots. I do have a weakness for a good debate tho
As for the ball boy and rubbing, I came across this earlier today. I think it explains it better then I can
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/physicist-emailed-us-explain-exactly-143048032.html
I did read the wilson article, and I got the sense he and BB were not on the same page on what they were talking about. He was talking about the elasticity of the bladder, and its ability to not lose pressure over time. ie, leaking. What BB was talking about was not leaking, but pressure changes due to temperature changes.
These are two different things altogether.
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It's honestly all over the place. To me, thinks like blood pressure and tire pressure are measured in psig, since it's measuring hte performance of that particular system in the given weather/conditions. So to me, it makes more sense to measure thep ressure within the ball relative to the surrounding air pressure. A 12.5 psig football in 50 degrees in Denver at that altitude will have a lower psia than a 12.5 psig football in 50 degrees in Foxboro. So if we're going to measure this in psia, we not only need to account for the atmospheric pressure at sea level, but also the atmospheric pressure above sea level. Simply adding the 14.7 psi is just the absolute pressure at 0 feet above sea level (not even including any more or less pressure due to the atmospheric conditions on that particular day). I'm not sure how much more pressure is added on a given day at the height above sea level which Foxboro is located. That's getting into far more detail than I think I'm willing to spend time on. So to me, it's easier to simply just account for all of that by 0 referencing the pressure gauge to the then current atmospheric conditions. They aren't going to change drastically in a couple of hours and as long as both team's footballs are measured at about the same time, you're not going to get much variance in between the outside pressure of the footballs and the internal pressure.
you are correct in that one would adjust for the atmos. pressure at where they are located, and if the test was done in Denver, the 14.7 wouldnt be the proper number. Foxboro is close enough to sea level that 14.7 is pretty close to what is the true number. The formula works on absolute pressure. If we were doing this on a psi of 2000, the 14.7 wouldnt have a great effect. When the atmospheric pressure is 1/2 the total pressure, it makes the difference we see in our calculations.
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There were no illegal formations. The tuck rule was not made up. It just hadn't been called for a long time. I can recall that Manning had a tuck call that was ruled in favor of the Colts. I can say IMO that the tuck rule used in the Patriot-Raider game was shady at best. I think they should do away with the tuck rule. If a QB pulls the pass back down and looses the ball it should be ruled a fumble.
They did last year
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You are measuring this with PSI absolutes. We're not trying to neutralize and measure this in a vacuum, nor would it be appropriate since the game is played in the atmospheric pressure. Even then, all footballs were in the same location so there isn't really any need to neutralize the atmospheric conditions, since any difference between the footballs being on the Colts sideline and the Patriots sideline is negligible, they are only about 50 yards away from one another. So, as you say, unless the gauges are faulty, then we can simply just measure in psi's and in kelvins (and even then, it would be an odd assumption that measuring patriots football would yield drastic results while measuring the Cotls footballs were consistent with the formula we're working with - and as I've stated below, it would make no sense to measure the footballs with two different pressure gauges). Finally, we've been given measurements in psi's, not in psia's. Lussac's law only requires the temperature to be measured in absolute (i.e. Kevlins). Maybe the PSIA would be more applicable if we were measuring in two footballs at different sea levels, but that's not the case here. But whether you measure this with in psia or psi, it the explanations given by the Patriots does not add up. Either it deflated naturally due to the weather which a deflation to the extent reported would mean that the Colts footballs would have been noncompliant at some point during the game, or the Patriot footballs were deflated beyond what acceptable science would suggest during the game.
As to my point on the psi absolute, I think you're equation is a bit off even if the math in it is solid. The equations should look like this if we're measuring in standard psi:
Ball 1 (13.5 psi * 283.15k) / 295.37k = 12.9 psi.
Ball 2 (12.5 psi * 283.15k) / 295.37k = 12.0 psi.
However, what we're really looking for is what the temperature was at the time it was measured to be below the acceptable limits. Since the footballs were brought back up to acceptable levels at half time, we can only assume that the measurements deterimining the Patriot footballs below the acceptable level occurred at or around half time. So I went and looked up what the recorded temperatures were in Foxboro for the day. The following link is what I found: http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KOWD/2015/1/18/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA,
According to the hourly measurements, it seems that the temperature at the game went from a high 51 degrees F to no lower than 45 degrees F (280.37k) - and actually it didn't reach 45 degrees until about the end of the game, it seemed to remain at about 50 degrees at half time, but for the sake of argument, I'll go the lowest possible to illustrate the lowest possible psi's for both the Colts footballs and the Patriot footballs:
Ball 1 (13.5 psi * 280.37k) / 295.37k = 12.8 psi
Ball 2 (12.5 psi * 280.37k) / 295.37k = 11.9 psi
This would explain why the Colts footballs remained in compliance the entire game. While the Patriot footballs are not in compliance at 11.9 psi, the weather could have caused natural deflation under the limits. So I think most of us can agree, depending on whatever the measurements at half time were, that it's conceivable the Patriots didn't cause any unnatural deflation. However, the reports are that they were "closer to 1 psi than 2 psi" under the acceptable limits - which means that, if true, the patriot footballs would have measured somewhere between 11 psi and 11.5 psi. You don't get that far below the acceptable limits without taking more air out of the ball. To get to at least 11-11.5 psi's, the outdoor temperature at half time would have to have been at 8.2-29.5 degrees F. Something just isn't adding up as far as the math is concerned, ya know?
PS - it was pretty fun going back and relearning the science, it's been a while since I've done physics, which I loved in college. Came fairly natural to me, but I don't quite remember it without refreshers. Don't even care if I'm wrong at this point, it was still a fun exercise.
Kudos.
Totally correct about getting the gas laws brushed up on.(But I think I got it right on the absolute vs the gauge. did some googling and am pretty confident. The first one I came across that looked legit is this
http://web.cerritos.edu/cmera/SitePages/Ph101L/labs/GasLaw/GasLaw.htm
near the bottom, where they instruct the student to add the atmospheric temp to the gauge temp. ..
let me know what you find.)
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I'm assuming the balls were inflated to the bottom of the limit 12.5 at halftime. The NFL then says they tested the balls at the end of the game and they were all in compliance. If true and considering it got colder as the night went on , how do they explain the Pat and Colt balls staying in compliance ? Don't for get that you have the "WHOLE " game on the Colt balls . Why didn't these balls lose more than 1 PSI being in the cold for 4 hours , while the Pats lost all that PSI just from the start to the Jackson INT ?
What does in compliance mean at the end of the game? There is no rule about that, only that the balls will be inflated to certain standards before the game. Does it mean they were still between 12.5 and 13.5, or were they at a pressure that would be compliant after accounting for a temperature drop?
This is why the whole situation is messed up. The NFL is playing word smith with press releases, and the reporters all have sources...
blah.
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Favre would still toss it 60 yards.
ok, maybe him
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The rule book says "The ball shall be made up of an inflated (12 1/2 to 13 1/2 pounds) urethane bladder....."
It doesn't mention PSI. I think the league will take this route, then promise to detail the rulebook.
I think the PSI is implied. A football weights a bit less then a pound, not 12.5 - 13.5 lbs. The greatest QB's ever couldn't throw a 13 lb ball down the field very far.
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Why would the footballs be measured indoors? Why not measure them on the field after cooling them to the game start temperature since those are the conditions at which the ball is required to be within a specific pressure range?
Thats a good question. But that's the way its done. The balls are delivered to the refs 2 hours and 15 minutes before the game and kept in their possession until 10 minutes before the game.
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There at least two huge assumptions at play here. First and the biggest is, you are assuming that the baseline pressure outdoors for a football in any weather/temperature is 12.5 PSI. The above equation supports your argument, but only if the football can go no lower than 12.5 PSI at 20 degrees F, which was the recorded low on game day. More proof for that assertion is required.
Second, you're assuming that the entire temperature drop from kickoff occurred in the first half and no temperature drop occurred after half time. Again, we don't know the recorded PSI's of either team's footballs at half time or the end of the game, only that the Patriots footballs were brought within the compliance levels at half time and both team's footballs were within compliance levels at the end of the game. Again, more proof is required, of the PSIs at half time and the end of the game to support that.
You're going to make me do the math
So lets look at the math.Assumptions:1. The referee's did their checks, and at the time of inspection, all balls were between the required 12.5 and 13.5 psi.2. the temp in the refs room was 72FWe will only look at the pressure change between the refs measuring them and 1/2 time. We could do the same exercise from 1/2 time to end of game if wanted also.The formula.p1/t1 = p2/t2p1 and p2 are starting and ending pressures in absolute pressures (so we will add or subtract 14.7 (atmospheric pressure) to the gauge pressure as needed.t1 and t2 are starting and ending temperatures. They will be measured in kelvins.we will do the math with 2 balls, one at each range of the allowable psi range. Why these pressures..they represent the range of all possible legal pressures to start the game.starting temperature, 72 F or 295.4Kending temperature. 50 F or 283.1 Kstarting pressure (ball one) - 13.5 psi gauge, or 28.2 psi absolute.starting pressure (ball two) - 12.5 psi gauge, or 27.2 psi absolute.pressure change on ball one can be solved as follows.p2 = p1*t2/t1plugging in the numbers we have p2 = 28.2*283.1/295.4 = 27.0 psi absolute. the gauge pressure would be 27 - 14.7 or 12.3 psi gauge when measured at 50 F.pressure change in ball two can be solved as followsp2 = p1*t2/t1plugging in the numbers we have p2 = 27.2*283.1/295.4 = 26.1 psi absolute. the gauge pressure would be 26.1 - 14.7 or 11.4 psi gauge when measured at 50 F.that was at game start. If the temp fell further by 1/2 time, the pressures would be lower still. For instance, if the temp dropped by 10 F to40 F at 1/2 time, the balls would be at 11.8 and 10.9 psi respectfully.The nfl states that the Colts balls were in spec @ 1/2 time. Even given the game start temperature of 50F, this is impossible if the balls were tested properlywith an accurate gauge. -
Right, and what you seem to be insisting on is that the Patriots footballs were more affected by the weather than the Colts footballs. At bare minimum, I'm not willign to accept that premise without your breaking out hte math. Not that I don't think you are right or wrong, but I need more than just your word on it.
hahah..ok. Hope I get this so its clear
first, I am not saying they were more or less effected, but equally effected.
We start with 2 balls, one at 12.5 and one at 13.5 at room temp.
we take those balls outside to a 50 degree temperature. They both fall 1 psi due to the temperature difference. At this point, they have fallen all they can to satisfy Gay-Lussac's Law. (p1/t1 = p2/t2)
we now measure the psi and see that we have one at 11.5 and one at 12.5.
we pump up the lower one, and we have 2 balls @ 12.5 at the same temperature. Now we have 2 balls at the same pressure and temperature, which will then measure the same at the end of the game, as they both had the same starting state at the start of the second 1/2.
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How is it not logical? The higher the pressure, the less pressure it will have when the conditions change. Under your theory, a 12.5 PSI football will lose less pressure than a 13.5 PSI football would if, all other conditions equal, went from a 72 degree room to the outdoors where it was 40 degrees because they reach that equilibrium pressure. If anything, the Colts footballs should have lost more than 1 PSI in the first half. Yet, the ydidn't.
Please dont make me break out math
Pressure and temperature changes are not "theory's", they are well proven. -
Yet the Colts balls were never reinflated. So logic would tell you that, by the end of the game, it would have been 11.5, yet accordign to all reports, Colts footballs were always withing the limits. Patriots footballs however, apparently lost 1 PSI in the firs thalf and lost next to nothing in the colder second half. No matter how you slice it, it Bill's explanation makes no sense.
No. This is incorrect. Pressure goes down to a certain point based on temperature. Once they reach that pressure, it does not continue to fall. Logic does not say that at all.
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Actually, I am growing tired of the discussion, and wish we had some real answers.
The scenario I threw out there is just a thought to ponder, and definitely a possibility.
Its certainly possible thats all that happened. The patriots cheated. But until thats proven or disproven, we can debate (well, until we just get tired and move on
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It's why all this matters.
IF (and I stress if) your team did this on purpose... it matters.
IF this has happened more than once (since other teams may have observed it and reported it)... it matters.
IF there is a long pattern of this (harder to prove but we're early in the investigation) it's the worst, most disgusting kind of cheating.
Be a fan of your team, I get that - but just don't choose to be blind.
I dont think I have blinders on here. There are a few posts scattered about from me that state if they did it, then hand out the punishment. I will state it again, if its proved the patriots cheated, take some draft picks, suspend responsible parties. GIve them a huge fine.
Dont confuse my irritation with the "press" as a defense of the patriots.
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and did you happen to "get" my point, or did you skip over that part?
I seen what you wrote, I put it down as a not so subtle rub on Brady's presser, which is fine by me, I make fun of this situation, why shouldn't you? Did you expect me to run to his defense?
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If I were a pro and handled that kind of a ball day in and day out - yes. I played college basketball and the tiniest variation on the ball was discernible. It didn't shoot right, bounce off the rim in the same way, dribble right or even just feel right in my hands. I played tennis and soccer as well. Anyone that uses a ball day in and day out could potentially know the difference. They might not know but the ball would perform differently whether they knew it or not.
YOU are choosing not to hear and respond to my point. It makes a difference in the way the ball performs. A significant difference. One that 3 pros on that set and many other pros on other sets can tell you gives a benefit to the team using the 2 lbs. under-inflated ball. There is a reason the rule exists.
Sorry, maybe I wasn't making my point clear enough. No one is debating if an under inflated ball has those properties. I think everyone knows what happpens when the ball is not up to 12.5 psi.No, I heard your point and acknowledged it.
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I am not sure I could, because I personally have never held an NFL Football, however, I certainly think an NFL QB should be able to to tell, don't you...??? Unless said QB has been using an under inflated FB all along, then I suppose it would feel normal to him.
Thats my point, we dont know!! No one has done that demonstration. They all do the 2 ball test, which is farcical.
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so if the colts balls were also at 12.5 pregame, then what?
Then we look for aliens
Or hope the NFL gives us some freaking information!!!!
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They had two balls, one inflated at each psi.
I intentionally turned the tv sound off so I was ONLY observing the hands on the balls and how the balls depressed with pressure. It was absolutely crystal clear. Then I rewound the tape and observed as they talked about each ball and what I observed was confirmed by the facts about each ball as the panel was discussing.
I wish I had kept the segment, but our tivo is near full so I didn't. They demonstrated how much easier it was to tuck it away as a RB, squeeze it as a WR and hold on to it as a QB. The QB there even said flat out, that he could throw the lighter ball 10 yards farther in weather because of how firmly he could grip it.
Sorry, maybe I wasn't making my point clear enough. No one is debating if an under inflated ball has those properties. I think everyone knows what happpens when the ball is not up to 12.5 psi.
My point was, they showed you two balls, and told you 1 was under inflated. With those criteria almost anyone could tell which one was the underinflated ball. I can squeeze them and compare to each other.
My point was, if I gave you one ball, with no reference ball, could you tell me if that ball was properly inflated?
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then why were the Colts footballs in compliance after the game ?
Both sets of balls fall by 1 psi. If the colts balls started at 13.5, they would still be at 12.5 during/after the game. If the pats balls started at 12.5, they would be at 11.5 during/after the game.
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I have no dog in this fight.
Don't love the Patriots, don't hate the Patriots. I would honestly consider myself as neutral on this issue as any nfl fan could be.
If asked to serve on a jury I could be fair.
I saw a panel on I think NFL network. Three guys and a moderator. 2 balls, 12.5 psi and 10.5 psi. I could visibly see the difference in the two balls as they were being handled. I didn't know which was which (I intentionally had the sound off). It could C L E A R L Y be seen with the naked eye through a camera. One depressed significantly more when held firmly. It was not even close.
Of course you could. If they squeezed one ball, without a reference ball, could you tell if it was at 10.5 or 12.5?
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where have you seen the colts had the balls inflated to 13.5??
No where. maybe they were at 12.5 also. I dont know. But it would explain stuff in a manor I find favourable
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Chris Carter just said someone took the air out of the Patriots footballs. He talked about the Colts footballs being with specs, while 11 out of the 12 of the Patriots weren't.
No one had to take air out of the balls for that to happen. Carter can speculate, but thats all it is, speculation.
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So then, in theory, on a 90* day they under inflate the balls to account for increased pressure. After all, they have to expand going from a 70* locker room to an ambient 90* on the field.
Nonsense. Plain and simple
No, on a 90 degree day, they set the balls to the requested pressure, and both then rise in pressure. No ones complaining about overinflated balls.
Speculation Thread: What do you think happened at Deflategate? (Merge)
in NFL General
Posted
hahah..what, you dont want to discuss the difference in pressure that would be caused by indy filling the balls with dry midwest air, and the pats filling it with wet east coast air?? I hear that can be fascinating
lol