Zebra3
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Posts posted by Zebra3
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LOL lot's of reading things into words going on here. Let's look at the actual quote, not the spin in the article.
"I don't know," Manning said. "I think he's working real hard -- Peyton wants to play. He's got a good attitude about it. He's getting his health back, getting a little better. We'll just have to see what happens."
Archie isn't in the front office or coaching staff, so he doesn't know. He does know Peyton is working hard - that is well documented, as is Peyton's deisre to play. Look at the second half of the comment, he says that Peyton is getting his health back and getting better. It's not like Archie can just up and confirm Peyton will or will not play, he can only say "I don't know".
Good grief, folks, about the most negative thing said was "I don't know,". I wish people would stop reading things into comments like this, that are simply not there.
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Well, we've had lack luster performance in special teams for a long time now, and certainly this year was no exception. I am sensing that someone is viewing this year as an opportunity to clear house and reset in many ways.
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Well I think your gut will be wrong on him naming himself to GM position. He wants someone that can be the GM and the owner wouldn't be that person. JMO of course.
I have a feeling that the GM role may be split with one part being specifically focused on team personnel and the other on the business aspects of the franchise. The business side might end up residing within the family, but the football side would stay with a football person from outside.
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I believe Luck will graduate this year, he would have to return and go into Grad school I believe.
Yep 'Flash777' made that point several posts back. thank you for the clarification as well, for some reason it was stuck in my head that he still had a year to go after this.
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Thing is you can't compare seasons. For instance 11-5 without Brady 2009. Would NE be 11-5 THIS season without Brady?
Same with the colts. Would the team go 12-4 with Manning? Better than 0-10 I'm sure but where? I never thought the colts would contend this year way before PM was injured... for other reasons.
I agree, it's extremely difficult to compare like with like, season to season - but it's kind of all we have for comparisons... To be honest I thought that the Colts would struggle to get 10+ wins with Manning this season as well. I feel that the wheels have been coming off the cart for a long time now, and with the cart-horse in the stable , the cart is going nowhere with 3 wheels and a pony trying to pull it.
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I think Collins may have been the answer if there was not lock out and that he could have come in around June/July and been given a month or so to work with the number 1 team and prep...but that didn't happen and we saw the result.
No, at his best, Collins was not in the same league as Peyton Manning, in his declining years after sitting on the couch all summer? Not a chance in the world. You say Peyton is in his declining years, well Peyton has years on Collins and is starting from a peak that Collins could never scale.
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Nice breakdown but anyone who's watched football over the last few years should realize that if a pass 1st team doesn't even have a capable qb, that team will struggle greatly. Even a run first team would need a capable qb. At the beginning of the season I thought Collins would be capable but I was wrong
Indeed, I think that we all really should have seen this season coming, and perhaps we did and didn't want to see it (I know I didn't). I am just surprised by how much impact PM's absence has on both sides of the ball. On the O I can see it, it's obvious, but the D? That was when I started thinking about the impact he truly has. I relate it in my mind to the Patriots without Brady. That team had a much stronger system than the Colts, so the absence of Brady had an impact, but it didn't have the kind of impact on the defense as Peyton's absence has at the Colts.
In a sense this says that the Colts are unbalanced, the pass first nature of the team is not the only part of that, the defense being built around gaining a lead and forcing the pass is part of it too.
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This season has been educational in football terms for a number of reasons. but the biggest one is the impact on the game of the QB position. It's incredible how much of an impact it has - on both sides of the football. Before I begin, let me say I will be making broad generalizations because it's nearly impossible to quantify much of this topic because your talking about comparing QB play and there are so many factors and intangibles at work. So with that out of the way....
If you look at a standard game, there is time for 6-8 drives for each team, depending on the pace of play. There are perhaps 60-70 offensive snaps in a game. So, how can a Peyton Manning take a team to 10-6 or better and any other QB has trouble managing 1-15?
Let's look at the offense for a moment. If you assume that QB XYZ is 10% better at reading the line and making an audible than QB ABC, 10% better at going through his progression, 10% more accurate, 10% better at looking off the defense, those things start to mount up. one or two audibles that work that otherwise would not, one or two passes that are caught instead of missed or intercepted, one or two runs that work because of misdirection that otherwise would have been stuffed, one or two incomplete instead of sacks, and so on. These things mount up if XYZ is just a little better than ABC. But what if XYZ is Peyton Manning good? it could be even more of a difference. Suddenly there could be a positive outcome on 6+ more plays than otherwise might be the case - simply because of the better QB. That could be the difference between a drive failing and a drive ending with an FG, or the difference between a TD and an FG. It could be 10+ points a game - or more. It's easy to see how that kind of difference in QB can impact the offense.
But what about Defense? Well, if that QB is out there making 10% better calls and decisions, there are fewer turnovers which keeps the number of defensive series to a minimum. Better Offense means better field position, even when a drive ends in a punt giving the D more plays to stop an offense, and more plays to gain a turnover. The Tampa 2 defense is particularly prone to suffering from a short field. Given decent field position each time that defense has a decent chance of stopping the opposition or generating a turnover, or forcing a field goal. So just the field position the D inherits can help or hinder them. Having that QB that's just a bit better helps a bit more because if a turnover is won, the resulting drive may be longer and result in a positive score. Having better QB play can result in more time between series (although PM is so explosive, that it could be seconds...). If the O is better and gains the lead, the opposition are forced to throw more, which also feeds into the Tampa 2 defense. So again, better QB play, better O, better D.
So, what if the contrast between your QBs is higher than 10%? Let's look at a healthy Peyton Manning vs 50% of the *starting* QBs in the league. Is PM 10+% better in most respects than 50% of the starters at QB? I think so. Is he 10% better than any of the backups? You better believe it. Is he 20% better than most backups? Probably so. Obviously it's hard to quantify exactly, but who can honestly say that PM isn't in a different class to the backup QB population of the NFL?
So, if you have a team with PM or his equivalent as QB, and your backup is simply an average backup, what do you expect to happen if PM goes out with an injury?
Last season, over the season as a whole, the Colts won by an average of 3 points - a field goal. If the Colts are on average 10 points (for instance) a game worse without Peyton Manning, and we won by an average of 3 points per game last season, what does that tell you about this season?
Let's not rest there though, let's think about that for a minute. 3 points a game. 1 play, a field goal, for them, or us. One pass, one completion, one audible, one sack avoided, that's all we're really talking about as the difference between winning and losing. So unless our backup is within a whisker of Peyton Manning's standard, is it really that logical to expect we would win like we do with Peyton? Also, as the season progresses, team morale becomes a factor that changes performance. After losing as many games as we have, can we honestly say that everyone on the field is performing as effectively as they were in week 2 or 3? The guys could literally be giving 100%, but the effects of low morale will still affect their performance.
Even if the coaching, play calling game planning and everything else remained the same, removing a Peyton Manning and replacing him with anything other than Peyton Manning 2.0 could easily result in the kind of season we are experiencing.
Wow, Peyton Manning can make that kind of difference huh?
So, what if PM doesn't come back, are we doomed? Probably not, but we will *have* to change the way we play. Our defensive scheme will have to work without assuming a lead, the offense will have to change to something more conventional that does not depend on the on field flexibility of the QB, that means a stronger line, pass protection and better running game.
Peyton Manning is not easily replaced, he is like a finely tuned Indy car engine, just as you can't replace such an engine with the engine from a World Rally Championship car and expect the same performance, you can't replace Peyton with another QB and expect the same performance.
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I like your post, but wanted to clarify that Luck didn't go in the draft this past year because he wanted to finish college. He is scheduled to graduate this year and that is why most people think he will enter the draft this year, even though he is eligible to play another year of football.
Thanks for the clarification, for some reason I thought he still had a year to go - this is what happens when your trying to be a poster, a moderator and pay attention to your day job at the same time....LOL.
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How about this. Peyton makes a full recovery and returns next season. Luck stays in College and finishes his education (call me traditional, but I like someone that finishes what they start). The colts go better than 8-8 next season, with a trip to the post season, but with all the problems out team has, they go no further. Then in the 2013 draft, the Colts take whoever they can get - perhaps they will get Lucky? The colts could trade up for Luck, and then have him sit a year or two behind Peyton who finishes out his career before handing the reigns to Luck (or whatever other Qb we pick).
At this point the Luck speculation depends on many things. Luck quits school early for the draft, the Colts get the #1 pick, Peyton isn't going to be healthy or the team cuts him. But even if these three things happen, it's no miracle cure for this season because the team is still the team, the coaches are still the coaches and the front office is still the front office.
Regardless of the Luck speculation, it seems to me that Peyton's absence this year has show up some deficiencies in our game planning and play calling that apparently Peyton Manning was able to mask with his on-field game management and audibles. It's also show up deficiencies in the pass protection, receiver corps, and somewhat unexpectedly considering he's the QB, his absence seems to have exposed the defense, coaching, planning and execution. Were we really so dependent on Peyton adjusting on the field and gaining a lead so that our D could play the way they play? With all of that to consider, I think that long before we make any decisions regarding drafting Luck, or any other high profile player, we have a lot of work to do to re-evaluate everything from the top down to find where we are weak, or simply doing a bad job, and fixing those things.
Imagine if the play calling, game planning and execution on both sides of the ball was 10% better. Just a couple of extra catches a game could have resulted in wins already this season. Curtis Painter and the team are looking broken by the defeats. but just a couple of catches and they might have a completely different demeanor. Look back to the titans game. Painter tried to take the game on his own shoulders. Had it not been for a couple of goal line muggings that went unflagged, the colts could have easily had that game. That's not his fault, but what if there were two fewer dropped passes in that game, would the goal line calls even have mattered? I've seen this time and again with a young, untried B who comes into a bad situation. There is only so much they can do, and if after giving their all, the rest of the team appears to have given up and the fans blame the QB, the poor QB can only withstand so much of that before giving up them self. I feel like this is where we are now. Painter is not a franchise QB, but he could start and win given better support on the field and off it. However I think that time has passed now, perhaps the Bye week will offer sufficient time to regroup and come back with a new attitude?
Back to the topic though. Blaming Peyton Manning for this debacle is kind of like blaming an injured officer for the performance of his troops under another commander while he is in hospital. No one would do that, so why would anyone point a finger of blame at Peyton Manning. Personally, I feel like the coaching staff and front office bear the blame for not recognizing and fixing the deficiencies that Peyton's absence has drawn into view.
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Okay lets say we put Peyton in for the last game and we win, but Peyton is injuried to where he can't play next season....Would it be worth it?
Absolutely not, which is why Peyton will *NOT* play this season at all.
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I've said in the past that I don't want Manning to return because it risks a graver injury, but if the Colts offense keeps playing like this I want him to come back for at least one game, so we don't go winless.
If the Colts offense plays like this and you put him in, you're almost certain of another injury. Putting Peyton in with the team as it is right now would be a really unwise decision.
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As the majority of this forum thinks, The Colts have no future with Jim Caldwell and some even thinks that we don't have any future of significance as a team if we don't fire The Polian family too.
So Mr. Irsay please watch this clip from Youtube:
That what will happen, if you don't act now!
Not sure that clip was worth the 30 seconds I previewed it for.
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Hmm... well, as unpopular as I am certain this will be in this thread, my personal opinion is that you are all quite wrong about Curtis Painter.
Up until two games ago, Painter was doing reasonably well. In the week 8 game against the Titans I saw something that was interesting and disappointing. That was the week that to me, the rest of the team literally gave up. I don't know about the play calling or game planning, that seems to have been poor for many weeks now, but in that one game Painter was passing pretty well, but coverage and pass-drops were making gaining yards difficult. Painter decided to take it on himself and tried to run the ball is needed. 79 yards of rushing showed his ability to escape and take the ball forward. What did the rest of the team do to assist him? How many TDs sis we get? OK, so we could point out that the officials turned a blind eye to our receivers being mugged on the goal line which probably cost us opportunities as well. But to me the point was that the rest of the team had given up, but Painter hadn't. Now, how did the fans, the team and the coaching staff reward that extra effort? Not very well.
I'm *not* saying Painter is the next Manning, or that he's top 10 material, But let's not tear the guy apart and blame him when there are so many other factors that make it difficult, if not impossible for him to do much different.
Personally, I think that the greatest failings have been game planning/play calling and execution, particularly catching and our defense. If we were able to get the D motivated again, and do a better job with the game plan and play calling, we might win some games - even with Painter.
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I totally agree, but we have to know when it is time to cut ties with Manning and can't let emotion be involved with the decision.
Well, based on your posting history, you would have no problem kicking Manning to the curb regardless, so let's not try to sound all high minded and objective. I'm certain that the team will leave emotion as the last factor in a decision.
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With the new CBA the number 1 pick is pretty much locked into X amount. Second have often has the situation occured when a team with a HOF QB had the chance at the Number 1 pick when the top rated QB over the past decade plus was coming out. Third, I don't think Rogers liked sitting on the bench as long as he did, but it didn't seem to stunt his growth.
Exceptions do not make the rule.
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I'm sure that a lot of the time we're running when the defense is not focusing on it, but you should give Painter some credit for frequently changing the play to get the Colts into a run. I'm no expert, but when I see him running around talking to every player (the RB stepping up to hear him) and the result is a 5+ yard running gain, I tend to assume that the original play might have been pretty ugly if they had stuck with it. Strangely though, it seems that our OL - chock full of scrubs and rookies - seems better running the ball than any Colts line in years. I'd like to attribute that to positive changes since Mudd has left, but the fact that they are pretty awful in pass blocking mutes my enthusiasm a lot. I'm hoping that the line will heal, Castonzo will improve, and Painter will calm down. He steppe backwards in the NO debacle - running for his life for three hours in a hostile environment - and hasn't been the same since. Hopefully the game will slow down for him again soon.
I have to ask why you are sticking with your avatar at this point? :smile: Unless it is actually an insult that my eyes aren't good enough to pick out.
Fortunately Painter has the team behind him, and should recover from that debacle. Personally though, I find that kind of experience really shows up the game plan and an inability to adjust (at the game plan/team level), but as you say Painter has shown he can and will adjust at the line. I just wish he was getting more support from the game planning department.
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I was referring to the season in total. There have been long stretches where he has looked every bit the NFL QB - something that few fans or writers considered even a remote possibility prior to this season. In that sense there has been considerable improvement.
I realize that he has regressed in the past two games - inaccurate, ineffective, mental mistakes, etc. It doesn't bother me "that" much because all QBs have ups and downs when they are just getting the chance to play, and because the offensive line - which had issues to begin with - has been torn apart by injuries. A young QB playing in a scheme where every pass has to be released virtually as soon as he catches it is a recipe for disaster. Painter is now playing as if he is about to get sacked momentarily even when he isn't. I think it's mental, and correctable.
Once again, we are looking for bright spots. I've seen Painter do some things well that Orlovsky (and even Collins) appear to be simply incapable of ever doing. The bottom line isn't working out well for a variety of reasons, but I'm figuring that if somebody can make a good throw once, they can make it 1,000 times. That's preferable to having someone who can't make the throw at all. Painter just needs to calm down and get some more experience and confidence.
Painter has also been throwing a *lot* of passes, that's down to game planning, and when that happens, you are always going to put the QB in a no win scenario unless the line and receivers are stellar.
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Mod Note : I merged this topic, but the merge doesn't seem to have done a very good job. Apologies for any confusion this has caused.
I have edited the original post to merge Stoneheart's thoughts and fix the confusing order of posts. I think it's fixed now.
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Hey, how can I not support the legend? You have my vote(s)!
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One of the radio shows I was listening to (I think mike and mike) had a guy who knows the MVP voters and he said a few guys were seriously considering putting a third place vote out for Manning.
Now, he's not going to win, but I thought it was funny he might get a vote or two.
He really ought to, his absence has shown his value.
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Yeah, sadly this. Unless Peyton Manning comes walking through that door (and he ain't) no one on our roster will make a difference at QB.
now andrew luck on the other hand....
Perhaps even sadder is that the way things are now with the team, I doubt that even a fire breathing Peyton Manning at his 110% very best would not be able to elevate this team to the win column.
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Unless that quarterback is Peyton Manning who would turn them into world beaters again.
He'd give us a better chance at winning, but the woeful performance of the team is not the sole responsibility of the QB. Curtis Painter isn't Peyton Manning (obviously) so the coaching staff and players have to step up, instead they appear to be in danger of doing the opposite. Even Peyton Manning at 100% would find it difficult to pull that train out of the station.
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Stick with him the rest of the season and after a winless season there's no way he's back next. Well, in sane world he wont be back.
Actually, if (stress *if*) he played as he can, rather than as he did last week, he would work as a backup for a healthy Peyton, so long as he only has to close out games with a lead.
People Please
in Colts Football
Posted
Personally I think we're all worrying over nothing. It's simple. Peyton Manning is a perfectionist, at least he seems that way to me, meticulous detail oriented, every mistake is taken hard. I don't think we have to worry about Peyton Manning hanging on to his locker like some kind of Brett Favre who simply won't leave unless pushed. I can't remember if he's actually said this or not, but I've always felt that for Peyton, if he cannot play to his own standards, he'll take himself out of the lineup.
So if Peyton returns, I don't think we have to worry about him overstaying his welcome. That's simply not Peyton's style. I don't know if he'd be content to ride the bench and mentor/coach his successor. he might, but I suspect that in the interests of the team, when PM decides he's done, he will get out to allow the team to move on.