Dilger85
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Posts posted by Dilger85
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13 hours ago, JPFolks said:
I think you have a reasonable take on this. I wonder though, is he REALLY the most naturally talented of all the rest of those guys? Maybe he is, but I don't think it is automatic. Fountain's stats (i.e. measurables) are pretty good. Their speed is nearly the same etc. I don't know all of their college stats, and though Cain played for the highest profile school, Darius Leonard didn't even play for a Major University and it didn't matter. So all these arguments that he's superior because he played at Clemson doesn't mean that much in terms of athleticism. People wash out of the NFL from major programs every year. Incredibly athletic guys do as well. So once again, where's the evidence? And even if it is true, does it matter until he gets on the field to demonstrate? Every type of college level superpowers have washed out badly on the field in the NFL. We have proof that some of these guys can play, and some small evidence that at least one of them the jury is out. Obviously by the end of the 4th preseason game, they will set the actual pecking order. I don't believe for a second that compliments when asked about a specific guy, which is likely the context for ANY comments made by the coaches (like "hey coach, how is Cain's rehab going, will he be ready for the season?" followed by "coachspeak, coachspeak, coachspeak, coachspeak" as the answer. "Next question?" Of course most aren't asking about Fountain or Pascal etc. in the first place for them to have a chance to talk up those guys.
Yep, everything you said is true. I just think that you have to evaluate Cain a little differently due to injury. But he might not recover to his pre injury traits or he might not beat an established vet out. I think Cain has more potential but potential can get you fired.
I'm assuming Cain will have earned it and that his presence on the team makes the Colts a better roster, IMO.
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15 minutes ago, MPStack said:
I wish more talent always translated to the football field. That would make everyone’s job easier.
I don't understand how you can hold an injury against a guy as lack of production. If Rogers was setting the world on fire, they would not have signed Funchess nor drafted Campbell. I would be willing to bet that they keep the most talented 5 WRs on the team. I think that list includes Cain and Rogers.
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2 minutes ago, MPStack said:
Where did Cain go again? Never mind!
I understand that he went in the 6th round. What you seem to not be grasping is the REASON he went in the 6th round was character concerns not talent. They essentially drafted a second round talent in the 6th round. From a talent perspective, he has more tools that Rogers. If it is close, I bet they keep Cain as would I. He has the potential to start.
We know what Rogers is, a useful depth WR. He has trouble with separation and not explosive after the catch. I understand your point that Rogers is the more accomplished veteran. Cain will have to out perform both Paschal and Rogers to make the roster but the coaching staff and front office seem to be excited about him (Cain).
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12 minutes ago, MPStack said:
Absolutely, as Cain is not some high draft pick that can’t easily be cut, because a UDFA (Rogers) with 3 threes years experience, is currently a better option to be on the 53 man roster than Cain IMO.
So why is Campbell a better option then? 2nd Round.
Cain was projected to go in the 2nd round but fell due to character concerns.
He has second round talent which is why I think he will make the roster unless he doesn't respond well from the surgery.
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4 minutes ago, JPFolks said:
It was more than outstanding CAMP. It was ALL preseason and then in the season, he proved he was still a guy that deserved opportunities. And he's back this season. Inman who we all agree (I think) was the second best receiver once he joined the team, did not get brought back (at least not yet and it looks grim at this point for him to ever come back). I am not even a fan of Rogers, but he's proven to be good enough to make a roster and contribute. Cain hasn't done that. Pascal has done more than Cain at this point. No one but me even mentions his name as being on the roster. Why does Cain deserve all the adulation and assumed status he hasn't earned yet? He's not the highest draft pick on the team from last year. He's not a guy who has played in a single game, even Fountain did that (while he dropped a wide open TD pass in a playoff game, but I digress). At least people could say Fountain got on the field. Pascal actually contributed to winning football. Rogers was essentially our second best receiver at times during the season since the guy from the Redskins (I have scrubbed his name out of my mind) was a complete bust though he was considered our #2 in most minds prior to Inman. So that means Cain has earned nothing and should be considered no better than 5th, in a tie with several other guys for that spot. And he could be several slots down from that for all we know.
True but judging by the coaching staff and front office comments, they hold Cain in greater esteem than you do. Cain wasn't able to prove anything because he was hurt, that is different than not producing. Cain has more natural talent but he most certainly will have to outperform the others with better track records but if it is close, they will keep the guy with more talent which is Cain.
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11 minutes ago, MPStack said:
According to the Cain fans here, he’s a lock to make the final 53 and Rogers is on the outside looking in.
I’ve yet to see anyone post a valid reason for Cain’s greatness.
I am talking about in relation to where he was drafted. You were using Cain being drafted in the 6th round as a mark against him but overlooking that Rogers who wasn't drafted at all.
Cain is bigger, faster, and more athletic. He is also an outside WR so I don't even know if they would be in direct competition with each other.
Older veterans are cut due to potential of a more unproven player all the time.
However, I do not think Rogers or Cain will be cut unless they bring someone else in or keep less than 5 WRs. Paschal, Fountain, Johnson are probably more on the bubble.
Of course Cain still has to go out and earn it though. Who knows how he will perform after the surgery.
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3 minutes ago, JPFolks said:
In response to the bolded line: You just proved our point. He was all those things you stated, but he came here and EARNED a spot and significant playing time. Cain hasn't done any of that.
Cain has had one year in the league and he was injured. How did Rogers make the team initially-outstanding camp. Did he force out WRs with more experience?
I get what you are saying though, but I just don't see enough talent with Rogers to keep over Cain if he performs as he did last year in camp. I do however think that Rogers will be kept unless they only keep 5WRs.
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2 minutes ago, JPFolks said:
Yeah, they are so confident in Cain's immense talent that they used a second round pick on a monster WR talent to pair with Hilton and Funchess. Something doesn't compute. I agree that Ballard is willing to bring on people with past trouble like Hill and Hunt (boy did they blow things up though) but he doesn't waste draft picks if he doesn't need to. Look, I HOPE Cain is everything you say he is. I saw him play well at Clemson. I saw every national game they played give or take one or two. But he wasn't THE guy at Clemson when he was balling out, he was the guy not being double covered in a prolific passing game and against quite a few teams who had non pro level 2nd corners. His last year he dropped way off. The QB still had big stats, but he wasn't being left alone as much. I really think at the LEAST, if he was a monster talent, we would have picked him when we picked Fountain. But we didn't. Sure, you take a flyer in the 6th and maybe he becomes the best 6th round pick in Colts history. But to date, he hasn't shown us ANYTHING yet. Let's wait and see before we bump off guys like Rogers who was good enough that Ballard wanted him back even WITH Cain and Fountain on the team and the draft coming up. He hasn't brought Inman back, but if he did or does it would mean he had zero confidence in Cain. At this time Cain is the bubble man at best. And Pascal and Fountain and the others are right there on the bubble with him. Let's hope two of them look so good that Rogers goes. Then at least we could all agree. Until then, he needs to prove it.
I would make the argument that Funchess was signed due to the unsure nature of Cain. Campbell was drafted due to upgrading Rogers. Cain and Funchess are outside WRs. Campbell and Rogers will play the slot mainly. they might keep Rogers but he is on the bubble in my opinion.
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12 minutes ago, MPStack said:
Rogers, currently has a better NFL resume than Cain. Is he a star? Absolutely, not. Does he bring more to the table than Cain at the moment? Yep!
Cain lasted until the 6th Rd for a reason. Now, he’s coming off an ACL injury with only a camp sample of playing time.
There is more depth at the WR position now.
Hilton, Funchess and Campbell are locks.
Rogers also brings return experience to the team with 53 receptions, which IMO pretty much guarantees at least to me, that he’ll be on the 53 man roster.
Cain is going to have to prove a lot to make the opening roster.
Like, I stated earlier, I think he either ends up on the PS or PUP list for a sustained period of time.
He lasted until the 6th round due to off field concerns. He had second - third round grades. He hasn't proven anything in the NFL that is true but he wasn't your typical 6th rounder. I am wondering why that should matter though given Rogers didn't get drafted.
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1 minute ago, BProland85 said:
With the market being a bit settled after a few days, I could see the following players getting deals much more reasonable and team friendly. These following players Indy could use on their roster in 2019...
RB Tevin Coleman
DE/OLB Justin Houston
DT Ndamokung Suh
WR Golden Tate
WR Randall Cobb
S Adrian Phillips
S Clayton Geathers
Don't like Suh, but agree with all the others.
I would add a couple
Zach Brown ILB
Rodney Gunter DT/DE
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3 minutes ago, csmopar said:
Interesting considering all their moves combined probably add up to it or more.
Maybe there is a difference with the timing of all of the guaranteed money.
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14 minutes ago, stitches said:
Exactly. So many weird things happening with them. I can't figure out any unified theory about their roster building... they do stuff that suggest full rebuild and at the same time they doing clearcut win-now moves... and then there is the oddity of the management of their OLine... I guess we shouldn't be too shocked knowing it's Tom Cable in control of that unit.
Funny that you two brought this up as I was listening to 101 ESPN out of St Louis Monday after work and the hosts asked the guest (Hub Arkush) about the Raiders and the early activity and why they would chose to pay Brown and Brown and not Mack. His explanation was that due to the large amount of up front and guaranteed money that Mack wanted that they would have had to put that cash in an escrow account up front. He claimed that the Raiders (specifically Mark Davis) could not afford to place that much cash up front in an account. Hub is pretty reliable so I just thought that was interesting and thought that I would share.
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1 hour ago, threeflight said:
As they should be. Bell is a proven elite player. One of the best RBs of the modern era. You want to lock up players like that.
Futchess didn't deserve jack.
That wasn't the argument you were making nor what I responded to in my post. You said that CB paid as much for Funchess as Bell received which was not true. You moved your goal posts of your argument.
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8 minutes ago, SouthernIndianaNDFan said:
At some point he's either gonna have to start signing guys or extending contracts, because they're well under the 89% 4-year CB threshold.
Which is the plan, signing your own players like Nelson and Lawrence (who were drafted last year and are impact guys). OBJ, Bell, and Brown do not offer the locker room presence that the Colts are looking for currently.
This team is young, won ten games last year and is on the rise and I am fine with added quality pros and trusting the evaluations of draft prospects of the staff.
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16 minutes ago, threeflight said:
LOL it really puts things into perspective when you realize that Ballard just about paid the same amount for Futchess as Lev Bell...an elite elite player.
It makes no sense and is totally contrary to everything Ballard has preached.
Except he didn't. The guaranteed money and years was more for Bell.
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5 minutes ago, jameszeigler834 said:
Difference that doesn't work with every team this team needs players not bar tenders.
They added two all pros from last year's draft and several other contributors. This team also made the playoffs last year. Something that Oakland, Washington, Jets, Lions, did not do but you want to emulate them instead of a organization like the Pats?
I will also add that signing big time FAs rarely works and these big FAs signings end up being cut within two to three years of signing the deal.
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17 minutes ago, #12. said:
If it was 12 million, three weeks ago someone might have called that crazy... for a box safety. It they were #2, whatever it was, it was substantial, so we can can probably pump the brakes on the prudent shopper nonsense.
Why based on assumptions? You don't know what the Colts were offering and you do not know how highly they valued Collins. You are the one that keeps confusing prudent shopper with not willing to spend. The Colts have a value on a player and will not go over that value which has been proven with CB. The Colts approach to FA is to not overspend according to their own valuation not mine or yours or Dan Snyder's. CB is disciplined within this structure.
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3 minutes ago, #12. said:
Yeah, I got you. He's willing to spend, though. Unfortunately winning a bidding war vs. Dan Snyder doesn't often happen.
No you really didn't. CB has never stated that he will not spend. He has stated that they place a value on a player and if the market for that player exceeds the value that they place on said player then they walk away.
By that logic, CB will spend but not crazy.
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7 minutes ago, aavmarine said:
How'd it work out for the Rams?
How is it working for Patriots?
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1 minute ago, jameszeigler834 said:
Also you wont win a super bowl with table scraps free agents either.
Patriots seem to do fine without many high priced free agents; who was the last one before Gilmore?
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15 minutes ago, chad72 said:
Margus is more seasoned with several years under NFL regimen and strength training, so the strength was there, otherwise the coaches wouldn't have put him out there. Tillery would have some ways to go before he can do that on a consistent basis for the NT position against NFL OL. The UT position where his quickness is his asset, he could leverage it more right off the bat, IMO.
That is where I was coming from. Don't get me wrong, if you followed any of my recent posts, I am a big fan of Tillery, just differ a bit on what he can be used for right off the bat, that is all.
That makes sense and you might be correct right out of the gate that his snaps would be limited at NT. They did sign Hunt for two years so to me that would be time to add strength and increase technique before taking over as a starter (Tillery).
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14 minutes ago, chad72 said:
If what you mean is moving to NT on passing downs and 1-gapping NT like a Jay Ratliff did for Wade Philips' D (for passing downs, I repeat), I can see that. However, not as a regular rotational NT, I do not see that, more situational.
Margus played NT last year in this defense after Woods went down and I would argue with better results. Tillery can do the same.
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28 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:
Don't think Tillery is a NT.
He supposedly played this year at 305. Showed up to the Combine at 295. Don't think he's playing the NT in the NFL at those weights. IMO, he's a 3-tech all the way....
Hunt played the NT position in this defense this year under 300 pounds. In this defense, Tillery can play both inside spots. The NT position in this defense isn't responsible for two gapping as in other defenses so the girth is not nearly as important.
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1 hour ago, shastamasta said:
Personally, I would have taken the BUF deal in a heartbeat. But Ballard apparently wanted more in that position, which is understandable if he loved Nelson. In a trade back. the Colts would have still gotten a premier player AND two extra 2nd round picks.
Also, Chance Warmack and Jonathan Cooper were both highly-touted...and were top 10 picks. And both busted. Nelson won't bust like they did...but there is no guarantee with any pick.
And even if he turns into Brandon Scherff on day one (which would be awesome), I still don't think it moves the needle enough to justify picking one that high. But it would definitely be nice to have one G position locked down...even if I don't agree with the value.
Draft value is relative. The old scouting mantras don’t cut it anymore. Look at the money Norwell got paid, Gs are getting paid the market has changed because there are so few excellent OL which makes them more valuable. The gap between Nelson and the next G was greater than the other positions in my opinion.
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Player most likely to be cut
in Colts Football
Posted
WR has been my focus in this discussion but you are right. There are several other areas where the cuts will be tough. I think S, LB, DL, OL will be exposing some pretty good players to the street.