Traines
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Posts posted by Traines
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Not sure why some of you dislike this trade
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Dustin, strangers with candy?
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Yeah, well we certainly can't draft one now, only 8 picks in the final six rounds, all defensive guys that are on the board will suck
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I'm really surprised Bill Simmons site would put this up, he's certainly not partial
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Your 11 hours straight of overreaction is embarrassing, go get your username and password for the patriots forum and kiss bill and tom's butt over there...it's not what I would've done with our first, but the whining filling up every post is annoying, 8 picks left and lots of good players
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I do not like the idea of a RT in round 1. I can see that Cherilus is injured, but I think we have much bigger problems on the defensive side of the ball. Safety would be ideal in my opinion, but a good NT would be awesome. I think we need OL depth, but we've got so many guys on the roster now, I don't see the need to bring in one in round 1.
I suppose many will call it drafting the BPA vs need, but Polian drafted Hughes... he never had a shot here behind Freeney/Mathis. And now he's making 9mill/season in Buffalo and is arguably one of their best defensive players. We need to draft a player that is nearly a certainty to be on the field. A good safety would be that. A dominant DL would be that. But whenever Cherilus returns, what do we do with him then? Pay him 7+ mill to ride the pine? I just don't see it.
How many of those guys are you comfortable with protecting Andrew Luck for a whole season? Polian drafted Hughes, how is this relevant? You would rather take a Safety in the 1st (who is not anything besides solid ITB and average in coverage -and I'm not a hater, I like him), than to ensure that your franchise is protected; and to do so because well, we are already paying him $7mil, he needs to be out there whether he is hurting us or not? This is also assuming he can return, this appears to be something more serious, a degenerating knee issue possibly. I'm not saying no to Collins if he is the best player on the board at 29, I think he can improve our safety position immediately, but to rule out drafting a RT in the first for the reasons you stated seems somewhat absurd.
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...That's what the draft is for, is to add talented young players who can make your team better.
EXACTLY!!!
How so?
Maybe not EVERYONE is saying that, but that's how a lot of posters here talk. The Colts lead the league in offense for awhile last season but because of games like the ones against the Cowboys and Patriots where we get held to 20 points or under, people act as if we just need to re-tool with all these weapons when we've got plenty.
I strongly disagree with this...most here seem to think that we need to draft only defense (unless we trade up in the 2nd for Tevin Coleman) and that every player should be designed to stop the patriots run game (not saying that you are one of those), but that seems to be a far more common philosophy than the the people on here saying that we need to re-tool the offense. Not many are calling for us to take a RB, WR, TE, or QB in the first couple of rounds. There are a few crazies that want a 1st round RB (in a deep class), but other than that RT seems to be the most popular, which I completely agree with. It is a move that has potential to save us future cap space and give us cheap, talented youth at an important position on the offensive line, an area where we should be glad to improve, especially with the added benefit of being a financial improvement. That's just an exapmle, I am not necessarily pushing for that. As Supe stated above, it is about adding talent that can make your team better. We already have guys for every single position, they may not be all that good in your opinion (even though some of them haven't even had the chance to prove themselves), but there is someone there, we do not need to reach. It seems that people want a safety in the 1st and feel that if Collins falls we have to take him, or if Randall is there we should go ahead and get him because the talent level drops off (not saying one is better than the other, just an example of the comments I have read on here)...so basically, the idea seems to be to just settle because we "need" a player to fill that position, forget the other talent that is there because talent is trumped by "need". Don't get me wrong, I am all for taking Collins with our pick at 29...IF he is the best player available. If someone falls that I like more (talent, or upside-wise) and he plays a position other than QB, TE, or RB (and probably WR - you know my allegiance is with Lockett in 2nd/3rd) for example I would take him. Sure, you could grab Collins and he could end up being a good player, but just because you took a good player and were able to plug him in immediately does not mean that it is best for your team...you may have passed on a superior talent at CB or OL or DL or whatever position, because there is this tunnel vision that you must fill certain spots with certain picks/rounds, etc. This is not necessarily directed at you, or anyone, this is just how I perceive the philosophy of the draft by many on this forum.
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If we traded to move up for a defensive player instead then it would be a better use of the pick imo. I mean look at how our offense played last year with a terrible run game, and how little moncrief saw the field as a wr4. I would say that we upgraded our run game this off-season, so that means our 2016 second round pick is playing less snaps then moncrief did this year. I think our resources are better spent on our d line rotation tbh. Just like wr we were looking thin on the line last yr by November, and our defense was the issue last year. I think we fix what isn't working before we worry about fixing what has been working for us. We had a top offense last year, and upgraded it quite a bit in free agency this year. I think we did enough to succeed again. Also we have a few young options that we try out, not to mention a chance at some decent udfas this year.
In my mock I have 3 defensive players in the first 4 picks; an ILB with coverage ability, DLineman with pass rushing ability, and a Safety with a nice skillset that could come in and compete for a starting role (all 3 levels of the defense)...not to mention an NT, 2 OLBs, and a CB late. I believe that your thoughts on the amount of open starting positions on the defense is unrealistic. You do not want to draft Lockett because he is perceived to be just depth and will not see the field, and that is how I see most of our defensive positions, so unless you're trading up for a starter we're in the same boat. Lockett has better hands and is a better route runner than Moncrief, and he is also more versatile. The fact that Moncrief didn't see the field much last year likely has more to do with his coming into the league as an unpolished product...not because we only want/can play so many WRs.
We currently have players on our roster to fill every single position, so I am looking at how we can improve upon the foundation we already have; for the present and the future. This is in contrast to most here who think that we need to draft only defense (unless we trade up in the 2nd for Tevin Coleman) and that every player should be designed to stop the patriots run game (not saying that you are one of those, just saying I believe we do not have tons of "needs", just lots of room for improvement). Also, I do not believe we really need the following: QB, TE (early at least), or a RB (in the first 2 rounds)...if Gurley is there at 61 I'm in...but other than that it is fair game. I believe Lockett will be the third most talented WR on this team immediately, behind only TY and Andre. I love Moncrief, but I feel he is inferior to Lockett as a player, which is why I am moving up to get him. This also fits right in with the "win now" mantra.
By the way, I truly appreciate the back and forth SaturdayAllDay...I'm new so it is nice to have some interaction.
Supe, you and I are pretty much in complete agreement, your responses are spot on with my thoughts...thanks!
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Who cares. You want him, go get him.
Exactly...he's probably my overall favorite player in the draft and he can play day 1 and makes this team immediately better in my opinion.
Not sure why you would trade a 2016 second rounder for Lockette. That'd be a waste for the Colts.
Please elaborate. I gave you a lengthy explanation why I would do it, it would be nice to hear more on why you think we shouldn't. If you feel he will still be there at the end of the third, that is fine, however, I do not feel he will fall that far. Do you have a problem with his game, his abilities, our perceived depth at WR, or?
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Round 1 (29)
Eric Kendricks, LB
Top coverage LB in the draft, allowing him to fill a void on the Colts defense. Very productive college career and has tape to back it up. If Freeman is not back after this season he will be able to step into his role without issue; I like the idea of him and Irving this year and next. Also, I am not worried about his size as some are.
Alternates: T.J. Clemmings (OT), Ronald Darby (CB), Byron Jones (CB), Eddie Goldman (DT) Landon Collins (S)
Round 2 (61)
Henry Anderson, DL
Excellent tape, high motor, can get after the QB from the D Line . Likely a 3-tech pass rushing specialist in nickel package to begin with (which we run frequent enough to justify a 2nd rounder on him). Currently lacks strength and definitely not going to be a run-stuffer to start, but that is fine right now as we have the depth to rotate. Can't have too many passh rushers, and someone dangerous on the D-Line would be an upgrade.
Alternates: Grady Jarrett, DL, Stephone Anthony (LB)
Round 3 (~65 to 75)
Tyler Lockett, WR+KR/PR (Trade 2016 2nd Rounder to move into early 3rd)
Quite a few people want to take a RB in Round 2 or 3 (even trade up for Tevin Coleman in Round 2...I think that is crazy talk...and I like him...but we have Frank Gore, a deep RB class, and a draft next year), but none of them are going to give you more value than Lockett in either of those rounds in my opinion. I understand that some believe we are a bit crowded in the WR department, but then again, we're hoping Duron can be our WR4 this year...Griff our 5th spot on the roster, or maybe one of the PS guys? Like I said, I am hoping for the best and think Carter can possibly develop into a decent ball player, but he is an unknown with a pretty weak resume' and a somewhat unfavorable (for lack of a better term right now) past...and he is dirt cheap so it's not like we're overly invested in him should he get surpassed by others on the roster. If one of TY or Andre miss any significant time we're going to be relying on Moncrief (2nd year) and the unknown Carter to step up and play a decent-sized role. And don't get me wrong, I really, really like Moncrief and think he will be a good player (really liked what he did this past season as a rookie and loved that we got him in the 3rd last year) for us this coming year and into the future, but Lockett in my opinion is more talented, more polished, and has much more upside. He can fill multiple roles in the passing game, roles we currently do not have anyone on the roster to play IMO (I like the Edelman comparison), and has an excellent resume' and game film...really good at the very least...hands and route running are very, very nice. Also, if Moncrief were to go down, we're depending on Carter and Whalen to step into that 3rd WR role...I don't dislike either one, but not sure how confident I would feel about it.
Admittedly, there may be defensive guys available at these spots that you just cannot pass up, and I am all about improving our D, but to say we shouldn't take a very talented WR early because we have Moncrief, Carter and Whalen seems like some are over-valuing them. I also understand the argument that we can get a good WR later, and I agree, but I feel that none of them are going to be as polished or talented as Lockett. He can have an immediate impact for this team, if not in the receiving game, the return game (where he has proven to be dangerous in college). Plus, Carter and the PS guys are projects, we do not need another at this point in my opinion.
Overall, I believe our team only gets better with Lockett on it, which is what the draft is for, improving talent; he can open up the field for TY and Andre, or vise versa, as well as provide special teams contributions as a returner immediately. I understand that he does not play defense, but he plays a premium position and would provide us cheap talent for at least 4 years.
Couple of notes; when I mention WR3, WR4, WR5 above, I'm referring to their position on the depth chart, not X,Y, or Z on the field.Some of you I know just want defense no matter what, so...I'm sorry.
Round 3 (93)
James Sample, S
He only has one year of starting experience so I think that will help in his dropping to this spot. Most of his flaws appear to be fixable with more coaching and experience. He is well-built for the position, I really like his size. He is more of an ITB type with good tackling ability, but he also had 4 picks last year. He can go sideline-to-sideline and make tackles in the open field and has coverage ability.
Alternates: Jaquiski Tartt (S), Rob Crisp (OT), D'Joun Smith (CB)
Round 4 (128)
Rob Havenstein, OT
Eventual replacement for Cherilus, either this season at some point or next. If Cherilus is healthy then Havenstein can compete for the RG spot. Assuming he is able to handle the RT position he would give us a solid succession plan, allowing us to; a.) Cut Cherilus after this season, saving money for our other FAs coming up, b.) allow us to have a cheap RT (a fairly expensive position to fill via FA, or to keep our current player) for the next few years, and c.) prevent us from trying to draft someone next season that we hope can start right away - I realize that Cherilus would still be under contract and we could just keep him and avoid this, however, I think we will be looking to shed his contract and use that money for our own guys...just my opinion. I am also in the camp that thinks the left side of the line should be left alone. I feel as if Mewhort and Castonzo have very good chemistry and should remain on that side together until proven otherwise.
Alternate: Derrick Lott (DT), Jeremy Langford (RB), Adran Amos (S)
Round 5 (165)
Josh Robinson, RB
I like his tape for the most part, has a pretty well-rounded game, but like most college RBs he is going to need to work on his pass blocking. I think this is something he can definitely learn and be good at, especially having Frank Gore as a mentor for a couple of seasons. He can catch out of the backfield, has pretty decent hands, definitely not a liability and can be depended upon in this area. However, my favorite part about his game is that he can absolutely run over people and break tackles like nobody's business. These were not all scrubs either, some of these were guys who are going to be drafted and likely be successful at the next level. He is not going to break off many 50-yard runs probably, but we don't need that when we would have a guy that can wear defenses down with his punishing style. I think he is going to be a handful for a lot of NFL defenders who are trying to tackle him. He has a great story and I think he would be a great addition to the team, absolutely worth a look at pick 165, I also think he is the perfect guy to play behind, and learn from Gore.
Alternates: Bobby McCain (CB)
Round 6 (204)
Alani Fua, OLB
Decent size, speed, and agility, however, not really sure where exactly he would play. With his size and attributes could move him around and see if you can find a place for him.
Round 6 (206)
Darryl Roberts, CB
Long corner with good recovery speed and ability to play press coverage. Needs quite a bit of refinement but has all of the skills necessary according to his NFL.com profile. Haven't watched him, but looked him up after his visit here.
Round 7 (244)
Terry Williams, NT
Good NT to bring in and compete with the others, has the size we like as well. He appears to have the potential to be a "knucklehead" as he has a drug-related arrest and was suspended again later that season. I think pick 244 is an alright place to take a chance on this guy, although he could go much higher. He appears to have the talent and ability, but maybe not the discipline to make it at the next level.
Round 7 (255)
Marus Rush, OLB
Good size and speed, appears to be very durable. Worth a late-round flyer.
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You're not going to find a complete SS product coming out though. They're not supposed to be great in coverage. That's why you have the SS/FS distinction in the first place.
Although Pagano likes them interchangeable, you still have the two archetypes for a reason. But Chancellor wasn't complete coming out of college either and he's better now but he's still your traditional box safety.
I think his value would be tremendous. He could offer support in the run and pass game, and potentially take away the middle of the field. That's valuable
I understand that most all college prospects are not a complete product, and I also understand that he could be valuable to us. However, my argument is that there are likely to be at least a few other players that represent just as good, or better, value for us at 29...and would not require trading a 2nd and future 3rd, or whatever the case may be. You would be giving up a lot when there is likely good value to be had at our current pick is what I am trying to say. Especially when you factor in that you are giving up at least 2 top 75 picks. I am not a Collins hater at all, I think he will be a good pro, but he's not worth more than our pick at 29, IMO.
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if this happens ima have to kill myself
May I ask why?
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They've been beating the brakes off of us lately, so I get it. I just hope people understand that the Patriots aren't guaranteed anything either. The Colts need to improve their operation without regard for the Pats. Just do whatever you can at every stop to get better. Individual matchups will take care of themselves.
Agree 100%
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It saddens me to see Tom Brady and the Pats in the heads of so many Colts fans.
Sometimes I have to check to make sure I am in the right forum as much pro-patriot talk/appreciation/fear as there is here.
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In my opinion, putting pressure on brady is most important. You can score all you want but brady will just keep coming back at it.
Ot is not 1st round worthy. The problem with the staff is there was a different oline variation EVERY week. They need to keep consistency because come playoff time, they did a great job with the run and pass once they kept a stable line and when they benched harrison.
Im thinking dt to plug up the run and pressure the qb was a weakness. We do need werner to step up this year too. A good dt will open up the lb pressure. I remember seeing tape on how the oline was so worried about suh that they forgot to cover the lb coming on the side.
Safety at 2nd round, de or lb at 3rd, ol, cb, and lb depth at 5th, 6th, 7th.
So it looks like you would rather just reach for someone with less skill than to take someone to protect the future, is that correct? I agree that we need to try and stick with the same 5 guys on the line and that the lack of continuity led to some of the issues that they had, however, Gosder Cherilus has what appears to be an ongoing (degenerating?) knee injury and we have no idea if he will be able to make it all the way through the season. On top of that, we also can save quite a bit of money next year (prior to 2016-17 season) by cutting him. I am not saying that we should necessarily spend a first on a OT, however, you cannot completely count it out. There is value in a RT, and by drafting one early this year (assume we draft one in the 1st), we can; a.) have a nice backup in place for worse case scenario and/or b.) have a succession plan that would allow us to save money the following year by cutting him, increasing our $ to re-sign our FA's.
Also, assingning positions to a certain round seems silly, that is not how you want to draft. Could it work out to where you got some good players, sure, but it is also about value...you want to get the most value out of your picks, not just settle for someone who fits a perceived need.
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Also, I do not believe many teams are going to be willing to give up 3rd and 4th rounders for our late 5th, and 6ths, and 7th that we can offer... not impossible, but seems really unlikely.
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It also depends on the team. The Browns is a dumpster fire of a franchise that need as many young quality players as they can get. Especially considering they may have drafted 2 first round busts last year, they need talent.
But you also forget there is the option of trading future picks. I'm sure that would increase the value. Giving the Browns our 2015 2nd and 2016 3rd would probably be enough. And if a guy like Collins is a complete player who makes your team better day 1(which I think he does), then no one is going to miss those picks.
TBH what the Colts should really do is take the 9 picks they have and turn it into 6 quality guys that makes the team more competitive. Like Grigs said, those low round draft picks might not even make it through cuts.
First off, I do not beleive that Collins is a complete player so we disagree there...but I do think that he would make this team better. However, the real question is how much is he worth; is having a safety that still needs work, especially in coverage worth giving up extra picks and/or future picks for, even though there are likely to be multiple players that fit that same mold at 29 (solid, but still need work)...especially our second and a future 3rd (top 100 players). I do not believe so, this is a safety without a copmlete game, he will likely make our team better but not for what it would cost us. You are talking about giving up two of our picks in the top 100 (plus a first rounder) for this guy so I feel as if he should be a completely polished product, or something you wouldn't be able to find elsewhere. A safety is likely not what is making or breaking this team next year so why reach...there are other safeties that we can get or give up much less for that can improve this team, IMO.
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I think some of you are obsessed with the safety position and the idea of needing to get one early (or pay one $10 mil a year via Free Agency). Yeah, teams who have had really good safeties have won the super bowl (I have seen the stat on this forum), but there are really good safeties on poor teams as well. I don't view the safety position as a make or break for us. I think we should invest in one in the draft, but we certainly don't need to reach for one in the first round, and definitely not trade up for one in the first. If Landon Collins is there when we pick at 29 taking him will probably not be my first choice, but I will be fine with it. However, trading up for him and giving up later picks or future picks would not be justifiable in my opinion. I think he is definitely solid, but he is in no way special enough, or complete enough for me to give up more than one pick for him. I believe there will be someone there at 29 who will make this team better without trading up. I mentioned earlier that my desire was to trade down.
Yeah, Grigson talked him up in the press conference, but that actually only makes me think we have less of a chance. There are lots of positions where this team can be improved, why reach...
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I do not see anyone in the first that would be worth the cost of trading up for, however, I am a big supporter of trading down if possible. In a trade-down scenario, I think the decision you would likely have to make (assuming we have willing trading partners);
Option A: do you want to have an early second (~36-42) and early 4th (~104-110), giving you 4 total picks in the top ~110 with the 1st pick not coming until late 30's.
Option B: do you want to have a mid-2nd (~43-52) and mid-3rd (~75-84), giving you 4 total picks in the top 93, with your first pick coming later at mid-to-late 40's
In this case, I would prefer Option B.
However, I think you do something like in the example below, where you move up into the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th to grab a guy who you really like that may have slipped. I am obviously giving up a nice pick next year (2nd rounder, ~pick 60-64), but you would be getting an extra top-75 talent this year.
1. Ronald Darby, CB
2. Henry Anderson, DL
3. Tyler Lockett, WR+KR/PR (Trade 2016 2nd Rounder to move into early 3rd)3. James Sample, S
4. Rob Havenstein, OT
5. Josh Robinson, RB -
1 Ronald Darby, CB
2 Henry Anderson, DL
3 Tyler Lockett, WR+KR/PR (Trade 2016 2nd Rounder to move into early 3rd)3 Rob Havenstein, OT
4 James Sample, S
5 Josh Robinson, RB
6a Alani Fua, OLB
6b Zach Vigil, ILB
7a Terry Williams, NT
7b Darryl Roberts, CB -
Hilarious!
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I heard he was already busted on PEDs. So I'll say neigh.
I thought that was hilarious, can't believe I am the only one who 'liked' it...hahahahahaha!!!
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I like it, Manning 1887.
I really like it and someone see's the importance of getting the backend squared away. We don't want to be searching for a CB on the free agent market next offseason that will be insanely expensive. We have to come away with Toler's replacement. The idea of Peters and Davis on the outside is very appealing to me.
I would have liked to see an OT in there somewhere. That is the other spot we have to look ahead at. Regardless of Cherilus this year we need that money off the books next year.
I think we need to add a S earlier than the 7th. I like the direction and the players.
We are on the exact same page here. CB and RT is going to be very expensive to fill via free agency, at least for good talent, which you need at both positions...and completely agree that Cherilus money needs to be used elsewhere.
Also, I am becoming a Nick Perry fan as a 7th rounder or UDFA...another guy I just read about yesterday (and noticed earlier that SDakColts mentioned him too) is Tra'Mayne Bondurant from Arizona. He put up good numbers, pretty impressive numbers really from what I see, but did have what appears to be some maturity issues before this last season...however, it appears he has gotten his shtuff together recently...food for thought!
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Really like the whole mock...I like both UDFAs too! If I was going to do one thing, I would try to get Josh Robinson (RB) from Miss. St. with our first pick in the 6th, instead of Green. I know from your previous posts you do not see RB as much of a need and I agree for the most part, but I also think that Robinson can provide something no other RB on the roster can, and that is how physical he is. Not saying, Gore and company aren't physical, but I think Robinson is on another level in that regard. Add him with Grant (speed!) and we could have some good competition at the RB spot this summer.
Round 2 and 3 thread
in NFL Draft, Scouting, and Free Agent Talk
Posted
What's wrong with Clemmings?