A8bil
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Posts posted by A8bil
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running behind a bad line and NO passing game creates a situation where virtually NO RB can succeed, outside of AP and Sanders. Gore no longer has the power or speed to make something out of nothing. He needs the line to give him creases and he will make the most of them, but confronting 8 man fronts with a weak line is too much for any RB (not wearing purple) to overcome.
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If you say so. You're wrong about the Patriots talent level BTW but it doesn't really matter. Patriots just about always have talented players that fit what they do very well. Just because the average fan does not think they are talented does not make it so. And then the coaching helps to get the best out of those players...
But I'm sure the only reason they have won is because of Brady.
It's funny how many people will acknowledge that football is the ultimate team sport, but when it comes to analyzing the success or failure of a program, that notion is thrown out the door and people want to isolate success or failure to singular issues.
I think you are right. The Patriots offense works because (i) they have a great QB, (ii) a solid line, (iii) solid RBs, (iv) very good TEs', (v) good WRs and (vi) very good coaching. It works because all of these elements work well together.
Out in SF, everyone wants to blame Kaep for the 49ers woes, but and certainly some significant responsibility sits on his shoulders, but Vernon Davis has been a dog for most of the past 2 years, the line couldn't consistently maintain their blocks, the play calling has been suspect, and so on. Bad offenses are usually bad because of a team effort at sucking, not because one person is falling short.
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This past week was a tought test, as the Broncos have a fast, and very good run defense. Should get easier for Gore as the season progresses. Would hate to see him at less than 4 ypc on the year. Never has done less than that and is one of the few backs in history who has had as many 1000 yd seasons and + 4 ypc.
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Luck always carried the team in years past. I mean, what were we last year? A team that 1) lead the NFL by FAR in dropped passes 2) came into the season with a T-Rich lead rushing attack 3) had a patchwork O-line and 4) had no pass rush. We made it to the AFCCG because of #12.
This year Luck has been bad. I think Grigson made some good moves on the D-line, and our defense really plays hard, but we still have the pass rush problem. On offense, really nobody has done anything that amazing. Frank Gore has been solid, Jack Mewhort, Moncrief, and maybe Hilton. Those few have done well but they haven't been superstars. Other than that, who can you really say has been a plus player if we're going by just this season? Not Luck, not Costanzo, not Holmes, not Thornton, not Dwayne Allen, not Johnson, not Dorsett, not Josh Robinson, not Todd Herremans, not Lance Louis, not even Matt Hasselbeck.
Not sure what your point is about the rest of the offense. WRs and TEs can't catch passes that are never thrown, or are thrown in the ground or sailed out of bounce. Gore can't run if the ball is not handed to him. Luck's struggles and Pep's poor play calling have prevented everyone on offense of showing what they can do.
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you guys looking at Gore's numbers in SF are seeing a cause and effect that was not there.
In the last two games last season the 49ers really got their offense going, and Gore had 25+ carries each game. He had no problem doing it. He had a few other games during the year where their offense allowed him to have those kinds of touches and he typically produced.
there were other games, however, where the offense just stunk and they couldn't get Gore any touches. They had 5 games where he had 12 touches or less.
The 49ers problems were mostly related to their line. Boone held out and never really got in sync, because...Anthony Davis was injured most of the year and had a difficult time staying on the field. Their starting center went out in pre-season, and their back up went out for the season shortly after. Basically, their O-line was in shambles (it is again this year) and could not open holes in a lot of games. Gore is a great back, but he's not going to move a pile...he needs creases to operate in and when they are not their, it's tough because he doesn't have the speed to improvise.
In short, give Gore the rock...he'll produce.
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When a player starts pulling with his hands rather than pushing, it's holding. Pretty simple in theory, hard to judge in practice.
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Would always? Hyde played only 1 year with gore. And gore would still get majority of the redzone carries
Obviously, I was responding to the prior post which made an observation about Hyde getting 4 TDs last year, so we were only talking about last year, 1 year.
The redzone is the opponents 20 yd line and in...by my recollection, several of Hyde's scores involved Gore running with offense until they got down to within the opponents 5 yard line or so, then Hyde was brought in. don't get me wrong. Hyde is an explosive player, but Gore could have just as well gotten the scores if they left him in the game.
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OK....
In his career, Gore had 67 rushing touchdowns and 11 receiving touchdowns.
Last year, Carlos Hyde had....... 4 rushing TD's. That's it.
Don't you EVER get tired of being so incredibly wrong?
More importantly, if you watched those games, Gore got the 49ers into position to score on most of Hyde's TDs and Harbaugh then swapped Hyde in to get him the scores. Gore could have scored easily and ended up with 8, but they were trying to keep Hyde happy on the bench while Gore got the bulk of the carriers.
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The line did play better....but Houston is not exactly a stalwart defensive line. But, neither are the Pats, so perhaps they can sustain it next week. The run defenses the Colts have faced so far this year have been generally strong.
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Heady times for Gore as a player. Just jumped 2 spots to 16 on the all time list. With any luck (pun intended) he can jump a couple more spots this year. If he plays again next year with the same effect, the sky's clear for top 8! Hope you guys appreciate and show him the appreciation for what he's accomplished, and I hope he gets a Superbowl ring with you.
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Right, pro style offense vs college spread offense. The spread has a reputation for making lesser QBs look damn good. Not to say Mariota isn't good, but he's not now nor will ever be Luck good. Also, fumbles are just as significant as ints for QBs, despite it not effecting QB rating. Mariota had 27 total fumbles in his career nearly twice the # you say Luck had.
Well...the answer to who will have a better career has not played itself out yet. They are both talented guys physically, but a big part of the game is in the head (See Kaepernick). Ball security isn't everything (Alex Smith throws few int.), but a propensity to throw INTs can reflect an inability to read a defense, or accuracy problems, or both. That Mariota had substantially fewer INTs than Luck while still being a prolific passer (unlike Alex Smith), tells you that perhaps he is both more accurate or better at reading the defense...but perhaps its a byproduct of the spread as you say.
Re fumbles, it's not hard to have a low fumble count when you're not in a situation to fumble. Mariota had 135 rushing attempts in his final year, Luck had 47. Gore has one fumble this year...Josh and Varga have none. Is Gore more fumble prone?
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Ball security? Mariota fumbled 23 times in 31 starts in college.
Luck also played in a pro style offense, Mariota did not. Geno Smith ran a very similar offense as Mariota in college and had similar numbers and a lower int rate.
Well, this was about Mariota vs. Luck, but I think you didn't bother to actually look at the stats.
Was referring to ball security as a QB. In his final year, Mariota had 4 INT on 445 passing attempts. Luck had 10 on 404. Smith had 6 on 518. In the year prior, Mariota had 4 INT on 386 attempts. Luck had 8 on 372 attempts. Smith had 7 on 526. Smith is closer, but as a passer Mariota had much better ball security than Luck.
With regard to fumbles, Smith had 30 fumbles...in less games than Mariota, so your theory doesn't hold water.
Further, Smith was credited with only 56 and 66 rushing attempts in his final two years. Luck was credited with 55 and 47. Mariota was 96 and 135. Mariota rushed for more than 700 yards each year at Oregon, while Luck had substantially less, and Smith cannot even qualify as a running QB (negative yards his junior year), so it seems you are comparing apples to oranges. Mariota had far more opportunities to fumble than either Luck or Smith.
Even with half to one third of the the rushing attempts of Mariota, Luck still had 14 fumbles in his career at Stanford. So, my point remains. Mariota had better ball security, and far better as a passer.
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Luck is a phenomenal athlete, as is Mariotta. The one thing I would say watching them come up through the Pac10/Pac12 is that Mariota was better at ball security and didn't have those weird games where he brain farrtted through multiple ugly interceptions. There were times where Mariota was intercepted, but I never felt like, "why did you make that throw." By contrast, Luck had multiple games where you were going, "what the heck?" It was like he didn't understand what defense was being thrown at him. It didn't happen often, but when it did, it was baffling.
As to Rogers, has there been anyone better? Great tutelage, etc, but there have been lots of QBs who have been mentored by the game's greats and did nothing. Rogers has great physical tools and great vision on the field. He's doing things Favre could only dream about.
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One thing you'll start to see is your other running backs start to model Gore. He's so patient and (believe it or not) cerebral in his approach to his position that everyone, coaches and lineman in particular, love him. They set a block and he uses it. It works just like it was written up on the blackboard.
Younger players start realizing that they don't have to plow through D-Linemen and LB's all by themselves and can use their power when it matters. The 49ers started seeing patience from all their back ups and sometimes it was hard to tell who was in the game without checking numbers. Not everyone has Gore's physical talents, but I think guys like Varga and Josh will improve immeasurably having the chance to learn Gore's approach to the game.
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Gore's a serviceable receiver out of the backfield. Roman just didn't pass to backs...it wasn't that Gore was not capable.
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Like any RB, Gore can get injured (just look at the Colts roster now. How many RBs are injured?), but he has not historically had injury problems. In fact, he has been incredibly durable. Gore's track record says he's not a brittle guy.
With respect to carries, while Gore has a lot over his career, he has not been run into the ground year after year. He typically is around 250 carries on the season, which is 30% under some of the most overused backs. I think stats show that the guys who go 350+ tend to break down quickly and have difficulty maintaining their level of play. By comparison, 250 carries is relatively light, particularly for a guy like Gore, who doesn't rely on breakaway speed or bulldozing power to get his yards. He picks and chooses his lanes and has a quick burst to get through small holes.
Gore's not going to throw fear into defenses like AP or Charles might, but he'll surprise you sometimes with his ability to get into the open space and rack up yardage. I think limiting his "pitch count" means he's going to be used much the way SF used him, which will allow him to maintain that quick burst and some speed from the beginning of the season and through into the playoffs. It should not be viewed as a negative. Few backs can do what Murray did last year, or what Marshawn does each year...rack up a lot of yards AND stay healthy. I don't think there were any FA who could have guaranteed that type of production to the Colts, so taking Gore and using him wisely seems like a prudent approach.
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This will be the largest task of his NFL career. It's obvious he's not getting any younger, playing in a new system, and this could possibly be the worst run Olines he's ever played behind.
All that being said, This Colts offense will be the most explosive Gore has ran with also!
While the 49ers line was often referred to as a "mauler" line, last year that was not true. The only regular linemen who played healthy and most of the year was Joe Staley. They had spotty service from Boone, Anthony Davis, and Iupati, and when they played, they often did so injured. They relied on a lot of guys who wont be in the league long, like Jonathan Martin
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For perspective, here's an article from PFF regarding the RBs facing 8+ in the box. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/05/08/facing-eight-in-the-box/
You can see that Gore has been among the league leaders with nearly 43% of his carries in 2012 against 8+ in the box, but these do not include the carries where 8 are in the box by reason of formation.
You can see here that when you also consider the tight sets, where there are multiple TE which naturally draw 8+ in the box, the % of carries for Gore against 8+ man fronts goes up to 53.5%.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/05/09/facing-eight-in-the-box-with-on-wideouts/
Whatever the reason, Gore has consistently faced stacked boxes all of his career, typically far more than any back not named Peterson or Lynch, year in and year out. It will be interesting to see if that changes with the Colts, and if it does what Gore can do with it.
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This would probably be due to opposing defenses worrying about Kaepernick taking off with his legs, not because they were focussing sole-ly on gore. So this is probably a tad bit misleading. Sure there would still have been 8 in the box, but the attention would have been split between Gore and Kaep, not just on Gore.
I DARE (and I bet Pags and Hamilton do as well) opposing defenses to stack the box every play with AJ, TY and Moncrief / Dorsett on the outside... and then Allen / Fleener on the inside to tear up behind those linebackers but in front of the CBs & safeties....
Gore's been facing 8-9 in the box for 10 years. It mostly has to do with running a run first offense...the 49ers have been among the bottom of the league in passing offense for almost that entire time. Teams have dared the 49ers to beat them through the passing game, and only occasionally has Smith/Kaepernick made them pay for the strategy.
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Something to note...the 49ers line last year was in shambles. Their starting right tackle, A. Davis was injured most of the year. His replacement, Jonathan Martin, was a joke. Boone held out in TC, came in out of shape, and had a terrible year. Iupati played injured for most of the year, missed a game and a half. Then, there was a revolving door at the center position, with Marcus Martin slated to start, but he went down in preseason and didn't come back until the into the second half. In his place, there were Daniel Kilgore, Joe Looney both pretty inexperienced and inconsistent. With Kaep having a bad year and no consistency or dominance on the line, Gore's numbers were down, but look at the last two games of the year.
They pretty much had their line back healthy for the first time with Davis finally back (Boone missed the last game but he was playing like garbage anyway). Playing two teams facing playoff elimination, Chargers and Gore ran for 158 and 144, with 6.08 YPC and 5.78 YPC. Gore was dominant.
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I think you want to have Robinson develop into Gore's back up and eventual replacement. With the 49ers, they drafted Kendall Hunter who is physically similar to Gore. They had totally different running styles when Hunter first came to the 49ers, but within a year or so, you could Hunter becoming a more effective runner between the tackles, learning to have Gore's patience and understanding of how to use his blocking in tight spaces. Some times you couldn't tell if it was Gore or Hunter running the ball. If not for blowing out his knee, I think Hunter would be the 49ers's starter.
I think Robinson has the potential for developing the same way, though he seems to have tighter hips than Gore and may not have the same shiftiness required between the tackles.
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You have the best most realistic answer here
How is that a good, let alone "best" answer? He's basically predicting Gore will be a total flop and waste. You don't spend the kind of money spent on Gore for a 143 carry back.
Gore will, in my estimate, get close to 250 carries. That's not just because he has done that practically every year of his career, but it's because why he gets that many carries. He's an every down back. He's got the speed, power, hands and blocking ability to be in there every down, which makes him invaluable to an offense. You don't signal plays by rotating other players in for "passing downs" for example. You'll only rotate guys in when he needs a rest, or to keep him fresh for playoffs.
I only see Gore not getting 250 carries if he is injured. Always a possibility, but so far he has been very durable. He's an offseason workout warrior. He keeps himself in good shape for the season.
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I hope you are right, unless we get some monsters on the o-line it will be tough for him, time for our o-line to monster up
That would help...but what the Colts have that the 49ers didn't is an effective passing game. Under Harbaugh, the 49ers had a bottom 4 passing offense every year, and most of their offensive threat came from Gore and Kaep running. To counter this, teams routinely put 8-9 guys in the box trying force the 49ers into passing. Running against 8-9 man fronts is not easy. Having a good passing offense should soften things up a bit for Gore, even if the Colts running blocking is not dominant.
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I am not a naysayer so much as concerned with all these players at the end of their productive careers who we are attaching ourselves to for at least 2 years. What happens if he gets hurt during pre-season? We're back to the same guys as the playoffs all season? They don't seem interested in Bradshaw (and tho I really am a fan of his, he doesn't typically last long each year). I would be fine with Gore if we drafted an outstanding RB to go with them who is another level up from Boom who was great compared to TR, but who wasn't really?
Showing clips of him doing his best work is one sided as well. I imagine if you were so motivated, you could find his very worst plays and make an opposite point. I think he's a short term bandaid who we all hope has 2 seasons left in the tank. But we all know he doesn't have 4 seasons left in the tank right? Or are we thinking he'll be outstanding past his mid 30's?
Great effort though. I appreciate the time and work you put into this.
Don't sell yourself short--you're quite the naysayer.
True, Gore is near the end of his career, but what I think the purpose of this thread is to show that Gore is still quite capable, and the clips chosen show how he gets the job done.
I think your fear of injury is perhaps misplaced. Injury can hit any player, at any time. Some players, however, are more injury prone than others...think McFadden or DeMarco Murray. If anything, Gore has proven over his career that he is not injury prone. One of the most durable backs out there. So while anything is possible, worrying about Gore getting injured should not be high on your list.
Of course, if you take "lowlights" of any player and show them the player will not look good, but I can tell you what you would see of a Gore lowlights film: Gore would take the handoff and hesitate waiting for his blockers to set their blocks off of which he can cut and shoot through a crevice. But the block never gets set, the crevice doesn't come open and Gore dives into the line for a 1 yard game. That's basically a "bad" Gore run. He's not going to make something of nothing, but he will do a lot with a little.
But what you should take from the clips shown above, is that even at Gore's ripe old age, he doesn't need much of a crevice to squeeze through for a big gain. Gore almost never gets the kind of running lanes that Arian Foster gets, but he has still been effective. Should be for the Colts as well.
Frank Gore
in Colts Football
Posted
Gore was never a cancer with the 49ers. He's all about winning. It could be that he's frustrated because he made a choice to join the Colts and he may be realizing his chances of winning a SB are no better here than with the 49ers. that realization could be painful.