Why Justice is not working out.

[Coffeedrinker]

Here is a break down of the 2nd play of the game for the Colts. This is pretty typical of Justice's play I chose this one because it shows everything that is wrong, the camera angle is good and plus you can see good and bad from the other players as well.

Start of the play. LOS is the 11 yard line, dline is between the tackles

Fires off and engages the defender at about the 11-1/2 yard line, not bad He's quicker off the snap than I thought. But already we can see some problems. His right foot is almost directly behind his left foot (no balance). He's bending over at the waist (no leverage) and his head is down so all he can see is the ground (no spatial awareness).

Okay so now the defender starts to take advantage of those things mentioned above with a simple uppercut club move. We see Justice completely twisted side ways, completely off balance and now he's going to trip Olsen who didn't have great position to begin with.

So here we have Brown in trouble. He's back at the 8 yard line, just received the hand-off and Justice's defender already has him beat and in a position to tackle Brown. Nor can Brown make a move because Satele messed up on the double team and did not put himself in a position to come off the DT and defend the inside gap so the LB is shooting through untouched. This play is over as soon as Brown gets the ball because of Justice. If Justice had blocked his guy properly then Brown can go to the outside and pick up 3 or 4 yards. And you can see from the previous picture that he (the LB) waited until Satele committed himself to the double team.

And here is Justice's defender making the tackle for a one yard loss. Justice is falling/lunging at the defender to (it appears) to kiss his rear end because it wasn't to block him.

Like I said this play is typical for Justice in both the run game and the pass game.

[Smonroe]

Horrible. And Olsen makes him look good. There has to be better guys getting waived.

[Peytonparker]

Great break down. These seem like things that can be fixed with proper coaching

[StewieG]

Justice is just one of the problems on the o line.

[Coffeedrinker]

Great break down. These seem like things that can be fixed with proper coaching

If he were a rookie, maybe somewhat. But no, these problems are all related to balance, lower body agility, foot speed and use of upper body strength. Those type of things cannot be taught. His technique could get better but without the natural ability for all those other areas, flawless technique would only make him an average RT.

I also want to mention, I have not posted a lot of pics on the forum so I'm still learning how but you can click on each image to enlarge it.

[Gavin]

Laziness I think what it amounts to(and his slow feet of course). Went to Colts camp and every time he was wasnt involved in the scrimmages he could have been working on O Lineman drills but he was standing and watching, Meanwhile ya got Justin Anderson but his butt jogging back and forth from one end of the opposite end zone to the next and practicing O Line drills

[funktacious2]

Yeah, that's just painful to watch. It actually looks like an easy pickup of 3-4 yards, but the line collapses so fast...

[StewieG]

Horrible. And Olsen makes him look good. There has to be better guys getting waived.

You would think so. Linkenbach and Justice have to be some of the worst o lineman out there. Theres just no way there isn't anyone better out there in free agency. If not, than we are screwed.

[Coffeedrinker]

Yeah, that's just painful to watch. It actually looks like an easy pickup of 3-4 yards, but the line collapses so fast...

Don't blame it on the line. It was Justice. With everything else that happened if Justice makes him block it's a run for positive yards.

Watch AC on the play. Now his responsibility is different and easier on this particular play but he does it flawlessly. Or watch Reitz... he engages his defender and locks him up, the defender is a complete non factor. Even Olsen and Satele negate their defender, as mentioned I would have liked to have seen Satele come off the double team to take the LB on the delay but perhaps they are not taught that. perhaps the idea is let the LB through so he takes himself out of the play as the RB as the outside lane to run to, I don't know how they are taught but I can see both sides of each idea.

[Steagles]

Do the jets still want him? If so trade him now, before we cut him.

[Gavin]

Do the jets still want him? If so trade him now, before we cut him.

Probably not after what they saw yesterday lol

[Coffeedrinker]

Do the jets still want him? If so trade him now, before we cut him.

Probably not after what they saw yesterday lol

Trade him before they have a chance to review the film from the game.

[Peytonparker]

He doesnt have to be a great RT average would be a major upgrade over what we have had at that position recently

[Gavin]

I still say throw Reitz over there if it dont work then we are no worse then what we started, move Justice to RG have Olsen and Tepper fight it out for LG. Reitz has quicker feet and is more agile. They need to try something so why not that

[Coffeedrinker]

He doesnt have to be a great RT average would be a major upgrade over what we have had at that position recently

He's a 7 year Vet, if he hasn't learned it by now he probably won't. Especially if Gavin's speculation is accurate and he's just lazy.

[Peytonparker]

He's a 7 year Vet, if he hasn't learned it by now he probably won't. Especially if Gavin's speculation is accurate and he's just lazy.

I'm just saying that if he is an average RT he is an upgrade over anyone we have had or currently have on the roster

[Gavin]

He's a 7 year Vet, if he hasn't learned it by now he probably won't. Especially if Gavin's speculation is accurate and he's just lazy.

I obviously dont watch him 24/7 so I cant say how he is beyond practice or how he is while he up at the Colts Complex practicing but he wasnt working on any Drills when he wasnt involved in the action

[Smitto]

One game and ppl are nit picking... Justice is a good Tackle the colts faced a darn good defense yesterday and there is no cohesion YET. Obviously you will find some plays to pick at im sure there were some you can pick at with Costanzo but the fact is this Current line is better than the one from last year.

Thats definitely improvement to me

[Fx Stryker]

One game and ppl are nit picking... Justice is a good Tackle the colts faced a darn good defense yesterday and there is no cohesion YET. Obviously you will find some plays to pick at im sure there were some you can pick at with Costanzo but the fact is this Current line is better than the one from last year.

Thats definitely improvement to me

Since when? The Eagles sure didn't care for him.

[Coffeedrinker]

One game and ppl are nit picking...

It's not just one game. I can do numerous plays like this from all three games.

Justice is a good Tackle

Based on what?

the colts faced a darn good defense yesterday

True

and there is no cohesion YET.

What would cohesion have done to help this play?

Obviously you will find some plays to pick at im sure there were some you can pick at with Costanzo

Probably, but there are a lot more bad plays to review of Justice than there is of AC.

but the fact is this Current line is better than the one from last year.

That is not a fact, right now that statement is nothing more than hope and conjecture.

Thats definitely improvement to me

It's easy to see improvement when you ignore the bad play.

[GrizzColt]

If you listen to players in interviews, they constantly talk about working hard and improving. They say it so much that it is ingrained in the fans that these guys (NFL players in general) must be the hardest working dudes in any business. Over time, you realize that a lot of these guys are good athletes that aren't passionate about football, just cashing the paycheck. They play hard when it's a contract year, or only if the ball is coming to them, etc...however, if the ball is run away from them, they may not pursue....if the ball is thrown to the other receiver, they may not block, etc....RAndy Moss got called out on it and he still has that legacy despite the fact he is arguably the greatest talent at WR the league has ever seen. I'm not saying Justice fits this bill, but if he is taking plays off and our QB gets hurt one day, he won't be around long.

[TKnight24]

Amazing, took me 5mins to read, comprehend, & look at that.

But in the game, the play lasted 2-3 seconds. Wow, they weren't kidding..........the NFL is Fast!!!

[MAC]

Interesting, but not surprising. If memory serves the Eagles were about to release him anyway, which is why he came so cheap. Justice was unsuccessful playing for a team with o-line problems of their own. I don't have Coffee's technical knowledge, but common sense led me to have few expectations for this guy.

The irritating thing is all those who were anointing him the RT of the future - based on what? The unproven belief that Grigson is such a brilliant evaluator of talent that if he want's someone he by definition is a gem? Or that since Grigson used to work for the Eagles, he must "know" that Justice is great and everyone else on the Eagles must be wrong about him? I'm hoping that he just thought that he could be a bit better than Link or an UFA, which isn't saying much.

The more concerning way of looking at it would be that he jumped at the opportunity to get one of "his" guys. If that guy turns out to be useless, that could actually mean that Grigson erred twice - first in backing him for the Eagles to draft, and then doubling down to get him for the Colts - despite seeing him play for years - because he wanted to prove himself right. That's worse than the nonsense people used to fabricate about Polian's ego dictating his personnel policies. I much prefer the first notion - Justice is just a minor stopgap. If not for the injury to Ijalana, perhaps he wouldn't even be starting.

[JWF]

Yeah I dont remember Justice ever being good. Hes probably good for depth but we have no other viable option at RT. Even in the Rams and Steelers gmae I wasnt impressed with anyone on the right side of the line.

[Gavin]

Grigson brought him over do to some familiarity,Mcglynn, Fokou same deal. Thats not a good reason to bring a player or players over,

[Coffeedrinker]

I much prefer the first notion - Justice is just a minor stopgap. If not for the injury to Ijalana, perhaps he wouldn't even be starting.

That is a possibility, especially the part about Ijalana.

[HtownColt]

Samson Satele failed to come off his double team with the RG and pick up the ILB(notice he runs Scott free threw the A gap where Satele suppose to come off the double and pick him up). Suppose to double team the nose up to the backside backer but satele never comes off and the linebacker is there to make the play as well. And he was holding on the play on top of that. But everybody notices Justice not holding his block long enough but failed to mention Satele's missed assignment(except from the initial poster here). It was suppose to be an inside run and justice is in position to keep his man on the outside but that free inside backer Satele let free caused brown to bounce outside right into justice man. See how Justice attacks the inside shoulder of the defender in attempt to get the angle to kick him out

[chad72]

To me, 2 experienced names that are UFA are Kareem McKenzie released by Giants, and Tony Pashos released by the Browns and both have experience playing RT.

They will be better than Justice for a 1 year stop gap, IMO.

[Thewholefnshow28]

Since when? The Eagles sure didn't care for him.

The only reason he is saying he is good is because he has a Colts jersey on now. Justice was not that good in Philly and their fans were glad to see him go. He maybe better then what we had, but he is not good and we can definitely upgrade his ot next offseason.

[Coffeedrinker]

Samson Satele failed to come off his double team with the RG and pick up the ILB(notice he runs Scott free threw the A gap where Satele suppose to come off the double and pick him up). Suppose to double team the nose up to the backside backer but satele never comes off and the linebacker is there to make the play as well. And he was holding on the play on top of that. But everybody notices Justice not holding his block long enough but failed to mention Satele's missed assignment(except from the initial poster here). It was suppose to be an inside run and justice is in position to keep his man on the outside but that free inside backer Satele let free caused brown to bounce outside right into justice man. See how Justice attacks the inside shoulder of the defender in attempt to get the angle to kick him out

Actually I mentioned Satele not coming off the double team. But it was not designed as an inside run and on the 2nd slide you can see that Justice is not attacking the inside shoulder... initially the play is set up exactly the way you want, you have three oline surrounding two defenders at the POA and a wall there with a free WR to shield the only available defender the safety.

If the play was designed to go inside then the center LG and LT would all play it differently. The center would put his right hand on the DT over the guard to hold him in place while the guard gets his body between the hole the defender and that is so he can go out and get the LB. The LG would push his defender with his left hand towards the tackle so he is in a position to get a lB at the 2nd level and then the LT would push his defender upfield and to the outside and take the hand-off from the guard.

No, if Brown didn't have to try and outmove the defender in the backfield, the LB shooting through the gap would have been a non factor until he turned around and gave chase.

I do agree, and I've mentioned in other threads, Satele did not have a good game either. The worst I have seen from him not only this year but on some of the Raider games I saw as well last year.

[HtownColt]

Not when you are blocking a 3-4 front. The center and play side guard double team the nose up to the backside backer. Who is running free when he recognizes run. And you can tell by the hand off it's an inside run and you can see brown bouncing it to the outside because of that linebacker Satele failed to pick up. There is a whole right up the middle where the play is designed if Satele picks up his man that's an easy 5yrd gain up the middle. But the backer forces brown to bounce outside exactly where Justice is trying to keep his man on the outside

[RomanianColtsFan]

To me, 2 experienced names that are UFA are Kareem McKenzie released by Giants, and Tony Pashos released by the Browns and both have experience playing RT.

They will be better than Justice for a 1 year stop gap, IMO.

I thought Pashos suffered an ugly injury last year.

[Mameluc]

One game and ppl are nit picking... Justice is a good Tackle the colts faced a darn good defense yesterday and there is no cohesion YET. Obviously you will find some plays to pick at im sure there were some you can pick at with Costanzo but the fact is this Current line is better than the one from last year.

Thats definitely improvement to me

nit picking...justice a good tackle? dude we had ZERO push on the run game and that is supposed to be his strenght. im sorry but since we got him and mcgllyn i was so not excited they both suck. id still think likenbach at RT and tepper at RG should get a shot...because olsen sucks also...has sucked since last year and nothing has changed.

and im not trying to throw satelle under the buss, i think he is ok but he played horrible yesterday.

[waka waka]

Not displaying good technique is one thing...but calling someone lazy? Seriously? I think people that call athletes lazy have never played any organized sports on any level. Think of the Offensive line like a hand if you are missing a finger it becomes more difficult to be efficient. The entire right side of the Line is new and haven't played together like AC & Reitz. I think the coaching staff is trying to figure out how this unit will look on opening day still. There appears to be upgrades out there on the wavier but i'm not a scout or a doctor so i cannot tell you with a 100% certainty that these players out there are better that whats currently being put out there with the first unit. I'm sure it will look better with time and with maybe upgrading the position. But keep in mind there are a lot of factors that are in play that people aren't accounting for.

[Smitto]

Since when? The Eagles sure didn't care for him.

Justice was projected as a 1st round talent in the draft, the only reason he was let go is because he got injured and a backup took his job not to mention him and howard mudd werent on the same page and we all know howard likes smaller OL

[Smitto]

nit picking...justice a good tackle? dude we had ZERO push on the run game and that is supposed to be his strenght. im sorry but since we got him and mcgllyn i was so not excited they both suck. id still think likenbach at RT and tepper at RG should get a shot...because olsen sucks also...has sucked since last year and nothing has changed.

and im not trying to throw satelle under the buss, i think he is ok but he played horrible yesterday.

I think your just expecting too much too soon, this line has quality players as you can see the colts arent the only team who has been getting their QB hit ie Brady, Brees and others... both of those teams have great OL... this is the preseason and this line will get better because it has the talent.

Justice is great at the run blocking, people are are also taking away the credit from the redskins defense... things like that are expected to happen when you face a really good defense especially when your team is rebuilding.

[Smitto]

It's not just one game. I can do numerous plays like this from all three games.

Based on what?

True

What would cohesion have done to help this play?

Probably, but there are a lot more bad plays to review of Justice than there is of AC.

That is not a fact, right now that statement is nothing more than hope and conjecture.

It's easy to see improvement when you ignore the bad play.

You can do numereous from other games of other linemans but that doesnt mean they're horrible,

And that quote in the bold? im sorry but did you watch likenbach last year?

Cohesion could have helped alot, on critical thing when it comes to cohesion is knowing your job and your teamates job..

During polians time he use to preach discipline when they never had the talent.... now that the colts do have the talent they need to work on their discipline on both sides of the ball. Once that happen im sure most of the ppl criticizing the OLine will quiet down.

[Coffeedrinker]

Not when you are blocking a 3-4 front. The center and play side guard double team the nose up to the backside backer. Who is running free when he recognizes run.

Especially when you are blocking a 3-4 front. That backside backer takes himself out of the play as soon as he is at the LOS by hitting that gap. That is why the center should come off and shield not drive block when he's coming through, he is supposed to delay his ability to turn and chase.

And you can tell by the hand off it's an inside run and you can see brown bouncing it to the outside because of that linebacker Satele failed to pick up.

That is incorrect, look how everyone else is blocking that is a designed off tackle run. If the play was designed to go up the hole the LB takes. Avery would not have come in motion thus bringing a CB close to the middle, Olsen would be man to man with his guy Satele would punch the guy over Reitz so Reitz can get position and then go get the LB, you don't double team a guy (which means two players lock up and engage the defender) and then expect one of those lineman doing the double team to break off and get a guy at the point of attack. When going against a 3-4 you set things up so a LB takes himself out of the play, so you show a gap that is away from the designated hole.

There is a whole right up the middle where the play is designed if Satele picks up his man that's an easy 5yrd gain up the middle. But the backer forces brown to bounce outside exactly where Justice is trying to keep his man on the outside

, Justice is trying to keep his guy to the outside. Based on the rest of your post I thought you understood line play but that sentence would seem to negate that. Think of this... even if Satele comes off the double team and takes the LB on the delay there is no hole for Brown to run to in that situation. No lineman is going to come off a double team and then drive block a LB running a full speed, that would be one of the worst design blocking schemes I have ever seen.

[Coffeedrinker]

You can do numereous from other games of other linemans but that doesnt mean they're horrible,

Actually the definition of a horrible lineman is doing something incorrectly numerous times.

And that quote in the bold? im sorry but did you watch likenbach last year?

Yes, Link was really bad last year but you did not say Justice was an improvement over Link (which is debatable) you said the Oline is improved and that we don't know yet.

Cohesion could have helped alot, on critical thing when it comes to cohesion is knowing your job and your teamates job..

Yes, I know what cohesion means but please explain how it would have helped on that play? It didn't look like anybody did something someone didn't expect. So I would like that explained.

During polians time he use to preach discipline when they never had the talent.... now that the colts do have the talent they need to work on their discipline on both sides of the ball. Once that happen im sure most of the ppl criticizing the OLine will quiet down.

That is a completely hilarious statement. I'm sure glad those non talented players like Glenn, Meadows, Diem, McKinney, Saturday, Scott, Lilja, DeMulling had discipline. The could not stand up to the likes of Justice and McGlynn and Satele when it comes to talent.

[chrisfarley]

Justice doesn't think people notice this type of stuff. People think he is really good because of his name. I know for a fact I've seen him blow his assignment at least 10 times and I'm not kidding.