2013 NFL Draft Big Board 2.0

[NewColtsFan]

The reason I have him in the middle-late first round is because he has more skills than Barber and Flowers. He hits like a monster and is very instinctive. Something not said about Flowers coming out of college. Barber was said to be instinctive, but not a very good tackler. Mathieu is great all around, something that all people agree. He may not be close to a shutdown corner, but he makes it up with the things I stated before. If he's stopping guys, it doesn't matter how big he is.

Andy.... it's late where you live (wherever that is) and it's late where I am too... apologies in advance, this is going to be a bit long...

Powers I think was taken in the 3rd round... a key point. And while we're on height, you might as well mention Darrell Green who was 5'8"... taken at the bottom of the first round. Green was also one of the fastest players in the NFL. Mathieu is not.

Height is not over-rated. Not with tall receivers like Calvin and Andre johnson, Fitzgerald and Floyd in Arizona, A.J. Green, Julio Jones, Brandon Marshall, Dez Bryant, Roddy White, Decker and Thomas at Denver, Blackmon, Bowe, Colston, Moss and Crabtree at SF, Malcom Floyd, Vincent Jackson, Rice & Williams in Seattle... there are 19 receivers, all over 6'0" and some of them are well over that. That's 20 WR's just off the top of my head. Height for a corner is not over-rated.

But you're still missing another key point.

The weakest part of Mathieu's game is actually playing cornerback. Covering receivers. Most of his biggest plays are when he's blitzing, not covering, or when playing special teams, either returning kicks, or blocking them. Here's some comments from Mel Kiper...

"Mathieu jumped on the scene last year with big plays, but he's small and needs work as a cover corner. He's a huge threat in the return game."

Todd McShay also is not a fan of Mathieu's corner ability as of now. He doesn't rule out him getting better, but he's got work to do.

By the way, did I also mention he's not that fast? At least, not by stopwatch. A reported 4.6 out of H.S. He's more game fast.

Look, a year from now, Mathieu may go in the first round. I'm not ruling that out. But not as of today. He's a diamond in the rough with much more work to do. I don't dislike the kid, despite what this post may read like to you and others. I'm just saying don't fall in love -- not yet. Maybe a year from now the Colts take him in the 2nd round, and then Andy, you and I, and perhaps many other Colts' fans will be very, very happy!

Apologies for the long rant... See you tomorrow!

[FightLikeSin]

Brandon Flowers and Ronde Barber are 5'9... don't worry too much about his height.

London Fletcher is 5'10" linebacker. He's exceptionally small for that position, but he's great. However, that doesn't mean anyone that is 5'9" linebacker should play that position because of a couple examples of a decent/good undersized player. Flowers and Barber are exceptions but they both still suffer from their height disadvantage when covering big receivers. It makes sense for Matheiu to be a free safety.

[Gavin]

It will come down to how bad do we need a Safety I think, I dont see us needing one to the point where we will draft him in the 1st, I think Bethea and Zb will hold down the fort well there. Given the amount of moves we have done at Corner and Freeney's age at Linebacker and that he may or may not do well at that position, I expect those two spots be the focal point of next years first round

[TKnight24]

Take Jeffcoat off. I believe Manny Diaz will convince him to stay and play for his Defense. David Amerson goes to us if a team in front of us doesnt need a CB.

[NewColtsFan]

Pass rusher or Corner.

Corner or Pass rusher.

Ultimately, I'm OK with either in the first, as long as the other comes in the 2nd round.

Personally, I think Pass rusher in the first is the way to go, but I could be persuaded otherwise. I'm not set in stone on this.

But it will need to be addressed. Hey, who knows, maybe Grigson wants to fill those needs via Free Agency and go with other positions in the draft, like WR and OT?!?

Dunno.... but those are the fun discussions we can have considering the draft as well as $40 MIll to spend in Free Agency.....

Better days ahead...

[coltsguy510]

Argument for Jarvis Jones as the #1 pick for us: Jones is an elite pass rusher. He plays the 3-4 linebacker position already and won't need to transition. Underrated coverage linebacker. Explosive, good size, violent hands, and great closing speed. We need a OLB of the future and Jones projects as a top 3 pass rusher in the league.

Argument for David Amerson as the #1 pick for us: Ballhawk. Great cover skills. Very good size for position, which allows him to match up with most receivers. Great instincts. Corner is our greatest need.

[NewColtsFan]

Argument for Jarvis Jones as the #1 pick for us: Jones is an elite pass rusher. He plays the 3-4 linebacker position already and won't need to transition. Underrated coverage linebacker. Explosive, good size, violent hands, and great closing speed. We need a OLB of the future and Jones projects as a top 3 pass rusher in the league.

Argument for David Amerson as the #1 pick for us: Ballhawk. Great cover skills. Very good size for position, which allows him to match up with most receivers. Great instincts. Corner is our greatest need.

Great post, 511..!!

OK.....

Now, how about I throw this curveball at you.... let's say we win 6 games this year... a decent first season for Pagano, Luck and Grigson. But, we also realize we're more than just one difference maker away.

If we fall in love either with Jones or Amerson, but we have to trade UP to get them, how much are we willing to trade to pull this off?

I'm not sure this is a fair question given that we don't know how far up we might have to trade? 1 spot? 5 spots? We're light years away. But, I wanted to put this out there just to get those of us who like to think about this something to chew on for the next 7-10 months.... as we get closer, this will become a very, very hard question to answer...

But that's what the off-season is for.... fun, silly stuff like this!

[coltsguy510]

Great post, 511..!!

OK.....

Now, how about I throw this curveball at you.... let's say we win 6 games this year... a decent first season for Pagano, Luck and Grigson. But, we also realize we're more than just one difference maker away.

If we fall in love either with Jones or Amerson, but we have to trade UP to get them, how much are we willing to trade to pull this off?

I'm not sure this is a fair question given that we don't know how far up we might have to trade? 1 spot? 5 spots? We're light years away. But, I wanted to put this out there just to get those of us who like to think about this something to chew on for the next 7-10 months.... as we get closer, this will become a very, very hard question to answer...

But that's what the off-season is for.... fun, silly stuff like this!

If it's just one spot, we give up our 1st and 4th rounders for 2013 and a 2014 4th rounder.

If it's five spots, we give up our 2013 1st and 3rd round picks and a 2014 3rd and 7th. If that's not enough, throw in a 2014 6th.

[Gavin]

I'd go for that

[wig]

If the Colts take Mathieu at six I'll lose all confidence in them.

[coltsguy510]

If the Colts take Mathieu at six I'll lose all confidence in them.

Me too!! The earliest I would take him would be in the third round.

[NewColtsFan]

If the Colts take Mathieu at six I'll lose all confidence in them.

I don't think you have to worry about that at all. In one draft, Grigson has shown himself to be pretty savy.

We'll learn much more about him next off-season with the '13 draft and his free agent moves, but so far, so very good.

Just my .02 cents.....

<<NOTE: Can't find the 2-cent emoticon. Has it been removed permanently?>>

[coltnorth]

Here is a scenario which could really throw fans for a loop. What if Freeney is a beast this year and we keep him. What if Hughes, Hickman, Fugger show they can be OLB studs in the future. Maybe you could take OLB off the urgency list. What if we pick up Revis or Cromartie as CB free agents and Powers has a great year. Maybe you could take CB off the urgency list too. Maybe then you could envision the colts taking Woods or Allen as Lucks star receiver for the future.

[coltsguy510]

I could envision that.

[Gavin]

yeah Revis and Cromartie arent going anywhere unless the Jets GM develops a case of amnesia and Powers wasnt even that good in college under a different cover scheme, he doesnt have the speed to keep up with faster wide receivers and he gets beat easily on double moves, plus we have Wayne for a few more years at wide receiver, I'd like to have Woods but he wouldnt be high on the priority draft list for me, we have O Line concerns, Linebacker concerns and Corner concerns, Freeney is in the last year of his deal, I certainly dont think Reitz is the answer at Guard (prove me wrong Reitz develop a nasty streak) and yes its college but it was a different scheme than the one we ran last year our Corners actually got to cover in college and werent that good at it, people want to say why do I keep bringing up college? I say to that......teams draft players based on what they did in college and what they can do for them, fact is none of our Corners did alot then and none of our Corners did alot now, you dont keep ignoring needs just to draft best player available when its not a need unless you plan on getting rid of a player or a player leaves

[Andy]

I'm not going to quote the posts I'm responding to, because there are a lot of them. **My grammar may be bad and I'll have fragments, but that's because I'm ranting and saying whatever comes to mind.**

For starters, I've changed my Colts draft pick for next year. That mock draft was from a month ago.

Those few examples of short players excelling is the reason why he could excel in this league. Stop saying his height/being small is the reason is the reason why he'll fail. Drew Brees is a great example. London Fletcher great example. Even Ray Lewis. or Robert Mathis, or Brandon Flowers, or Ronde Barber. heck, every short QB is half decent. Seneca Wallace was a good QB, but now he's old. Look at Wes Welker. There are so many good short players out there. He has the skills of a great cornerback and that's all that matters. He's big enough to play the position and we've seen people excel, people who have similar traits and skills to him.

Now, I think Hughes said that Flowers and Barber have trouble covering big receivers. That may be the case with Barber now (definitely not back in the day), but that's not the case with Flowers. Here's a funny story. Week 2 last year against the Lions, Calvin Johnson only had 3 catches for 29 yards (with the 1 yard touchdown being against someone else). He allowed 2 catches for 28 yards with 1 TD vs Calvin Johnson. That's one good example. Besides one fluke catch (Flowers covered him extremely well), Vincent Jackson another tall guy only caught 2 passes for 22 yards. Those are just two examples, I can give you many more. Don't get me started about Ronde Barber 7,8,9 years ago.

Mathieu could fail. Barkley could fail. %, they can all fail. It's just odd to say that the only reason why Mathieu will fail is because of his height. This year, he'll be the #1 guy and let's see how he does. He could fail or excel.

[Gavin]

I like Mathieu and he could go in the 1st and who knows, maybe high but I see him being a safety, he is more of a heavy hitter then he is a cover Corner and thats what we need along with linebacker, if we didnt have those needs I would look hard at him, not to mention we need a Guard

[NewColtsFan]

I'm not going to quote the posts I'm responding to, because there are a lot of them. **My grammar may be bad and I'll have fragments, but that's because I'm ranting and saying whatever comes to mind.**

For starters, I've changed my Colts draft pick for next year. That mock draft was from a month ago.

Those few examples of short players excelling is the reason why he could excel in this league. Stop saying his height/being small is the reason is the reason why he'll fail. Drew Brees is a great example. London Fletcher great example. Even Ray Lewis. or Robert Mathis, or Brandon Flowers, or Ronde Barber. heck, every short QB is half decent. Seneca Wallace was a good QB, but now he's old. Look at Wes Welker. There are so many good short players out there. He has the skills of a great cornerback and that's all that matters. He's big enough to play the position and we've seen people excel, people who have similar traits and skills to him.

Now, I think Hughes said that Flowers and Barber have trouble covering big receivers. That may be the case with Barber now (definitely not back in the day), but that's not the case with Flowers. Here's a funny story. Week 2 last year against the Lions, Calvin Johnson only had 3 catches for 29 yards (with the 1 yard touchdown being against someone else). He allowed 2 catches for 28 yards with 1 TD vs Calvin Johnson. That's one good example. Besides one fluke catch (Flowers covered him extremely well), Vincent Jackson another tall guy only caught 2 passes for 22 yards. Those are just two examples, I can give you many more. Don't get me started about Ronde Barber 7,8,9 years ago.

Mathieu could fail. Barkley could fail. %, they can all fail. It's just odd to say that the only reason why Mathieu will fail is because of his height. This year, he'll be the #1 guy and let's see how he does. He could fail or excel.

Here's a question?

Seneca Wallace? Seneca Wallace?!? For the love of God, Seneca Wallace?!?! Really?

Here's another question...

Are you even reading what we're writing? I mean all the way through....

Because if you are you'd know we're not saying Mathieu will fail. We're saying the weakest part of his game is Cornerback. The best part of his game is everything else. We're also noting that all the short corners you keep pointing to.... NONE OF THEM were 1st round picks. They went in the 2nd or the 3rd round. Yet, you keep ignoring that.

And now you say that posters here are saying Mathieu will fail. If you want to show me that post -- please do -- because I haven't seen it.

Sorry.... I don't mean to be beating you up here.... but your posts are getting stranger and stranger.

Andy..... you're one of my Faves! You like the draft and player evaluation -- so do I. So do a fair number of other posters which is why this thread has taken off. But you're ignoring the arguments you don't like and responding oddly to the ones you think you can respond to. Makes for a stilted conversation.

Everyone here likes Mathieu.... the question is how much... and when is good time to draft him. Don't make more of this than that.

Just some 4th of July food for thought!

p.s. -- when did Ray Lewis get short?!?

[coltsguy510]

I'm not going to quote the posts I'm responding to, because there are a lot of them. **My grammar may be bad and I'll have fragments, but that's because I'm ranting and saying whatever comes to mind.**

For starters, I've changed my Colts draft pick for next year. That mock draft was from a month ago.

Those few examples of short players excelling is the reason why he could excel in this league. Stop saying his height/being small is the reason is the reason why he'll fail. Drew Brees is a great example. London Fletcher great example. Even Ray Lewis. or Robert Mathis, or Brandon Flowers, or Ronde Barber. heck, every short QB is half decent. Seneca Wallace was a good QB, but now he's old. Look at Wes Welker. There are so many good short players out there. He has the skills of a great cornerback and that's all that matters. He's big enough to play the position and we've seen people excel, people who have similar traits and skills to him.

Now, I think Hughes said that Flowers and Barber have trouble covering big receivers. That may be the case with Barber now (definitely not back in the day), but that's not the case with Flowers. Here's a funny story. Week 2 last year against the Lions, Calvin Johnson only had 3 catches for 29 yards (with the 1 yard touchdown being against someone else). He allowed 2 catches for 28 yards with 1 TD vs Calvin Johnson. That's one good example. Besides one fluke catch (Flowers covered him extremely well), Vincent Jackson another tall guy only caught 2 passes for 22 yards. Those are just two examples, I can give you many more. Don't get me started about Ronde Barber 7,8,9 years ago.

Mathieu could fail. Barkley could fail. %, they can all fail. It's just odd to say that the only reason why Mathieu will fail is because of his height. This year, he'll be the #1 guy and let's see how he does. He could fail or excel.

Being short is a factor, but it's not the main reason we don't want to take him in the first round. He is just not that great a cover corner. That's just the fact of the matter. He is a GREAT return man, hitter, and playmaker. He is more of a FS than a CB. I would be fine with taking him in the third or fourth, but just not the first two rounds. Oh yeah and the short corners you named were both known as good cover corners coming out of college.

[coltsguy510]

Here is a scenario which could really throw fans for a loop. What if Freeney is a beast this year and we keep him. What if Hughes, Hickman, Fugger show they can be OLB studs in the future. Maybe you could take OLB off the urgency list. What if we pick up Revis or Cromartie as CB free agents and Powers has a great year. Maybe you could take CB off the urgency list too. Maybe then you could envision the colts taking Woods or Allen as Lucks star receiver for the future.

I would rather take a NT though, other than that I would do it.

[Andy]

Right now, we're just arguing if he's a good cover corner or not. Some of you think he isn't, and I can show you many clips of him covering well.

How about we just wait for the season.

[coltnorth]

yeah Revis and Cromartie arent going anywhere unless the Jets GM develops a case of amnesia and Powers wasnt even that good in college under a different cover scheme, he doesnt have the speed to keep up with faster wide receivers and he gets beat easily on double moves, plus we have Wayne for a few more years at wide receiver, I'd like to have Woods but he wouldnt be high on the priority draft list for me, we have O Line concerns, Linebacker concerns and Corner concerns, Freeney is in the last year of his deal, I certainly dont think Reitz is the answer at Guard (prove me wrong Reitz develop a nasty streak) and yes its college but it was a different scheme than the one we ran last year our Corners actually got to cover in college and werent that good at it, people want to say why do I keep bringing up college? I say to that......teams draft players based on what they did in college and what they can do for them, fact is none of our Corners did alot then and none of our Corners did alot now, you dont keep ignoring needs just to draft best player available when its not a need unless you plan on getting rid of a player or a player leaves

Revis has been unhappy with his contract. Unless they franchise him, he might look for the most money. I also meant the corner from Philly. Sorry about that.

[Gavin]

I think our best bet is a Corner early in the draft

[Andy]

I'll do this for you cats...

I'll look over my top 30 prospects (and take a look at 10 or 15 others), but I'll take a deep look at Mathieu last year and the year before that. heck, I'll try to find some of his games in high school. After I view all of that, I'll come up with one last big board before the season starts.

This last month has been one of the craziest in recent years, so I haven't had much time on the forums or my site. I'll find some time for this though