Rob Gronkowski's Contract Extended

[Superman]

All good thoughts proceeding this. I am in agreement.

However even with factoring the above factors I would take Gronk over Davis . . . we had a guy like Davis, namely Ben Watson, that was a physical speciman all worldly, etc . . . but could not pick up the offense and got numbers not that much different that Davis, well a tad less . . . but Watson was supposed to be our new Ben Coates, 1st rounder, and never panned out . . . so physical skills are not always it . . . man I wish Watson panned out like Gronk, can u imagine the 2003-2008 Pats with Gronk . . . wow . . .

Ben Watson played with Brady, though. If Vernon Davis had played with a good quarterback at any point in his career, and had failed to put up numbers or look like a good player, then we could compare him to Watson. But Davis' numbers with San Francisco are better than Watson's numbers with New England. Now, as you said, the Pats system wasn't tight end heavy (even in 2007, Watson only caught 36 passes), but I don't think the Niners have really featured the tight end at any point in Davis' time there. He even spent time under Mike Martz, a coordinator who is famous for NOT using tight ends. There's simply no comparison, numbers wise.

Then the physical attributes, which Davis wins that comparison as well. The measurables say that Davis is noticeably faster, and just as strong. This is no surprise; Davis had one of the most impressive Combine performances of all time. That doesn't make him a better player, just saying, Benjamin Watson was athletic, but he's no Vernon Davis. And the draft stock and position speak to that difference as well: Watson was drafted #32, Davis was drafted #6.

And lastly, another way to compare the two is to look at their respective college carreers and when yoyu do you will see that Gronk had a very impressive college career and holds many records at the University of Arizona, not sure if Davis put up as many school records at Maryland . . .

I don't know about school records, but there's nothing shoddy about Davis' collegiate numbers. And he played for a team threw the ball significantly less than Gronkowski's Wildcats team.

And also do we should not go so hard on Smith, after all had he been as bad as some have said the 49ers would have pursued Manning as opposed to merely "evaluating" him :evil: j/k . . .

Smith's career has been unfortunate, to say the least. Not all his fault; management up there couldn't get out of their own way. I lost count how many coordinators and coaches they've been through since drafting Smith. They really didn't give him the kind of environment you want to give a young quarterback. That said, his performance hasn't been good, whether it's his fault or not. And that affects the receivers that he plays with, so it's unreasonable to judge them solely on the basis of their numbers, without acknowledging the poor quarterback play.

[OZOC01]

You posted their 40 times. Let's not pretend you're splitting the atom here.

I would bet pretty much anything that every GM in the league, given a choice, would take Gronkowski over Vernon Davis. Guys like Davis have come and gone before, and while it's true he hasn't had Brady throwing it to him, the truly great players shine anyway. Davis is an other-wordly talent but what good does that do if you never live up to your potential? Which he clearly has not throughout the course of his career. Maybe at times, but that's it.

Dang, and that was what I was hoping to accomplish when I typed that response... :hmm:

The post I was replying to stated Davis was slightly faster than Gronk. He did not specify in what compacity and I simply posted info that clearly conflicted with his statement, nothing more...you're the one reading too much into it for whatever reason, even though your username makes it pretty obvious what side of the fence you stand on and why you would come off as defensive concerning my post...

[OZOC01]

BTW, where was the great Gronkowski during the Super Bowl?!?!

[Fx Stryker]

My sentiments exactly Fx Stryker. WR Wes Welker should have gotten a longterm contract first as opposed to the Gronk IMO. What the bleep are the NE Patriots doing? Yes, I know Welker signed his franchise tender, but come on. Wes Welker has proven his value to NE. Lock him up first with decent money. Welker has earned it. Then, secure your fantastic TE IMO.

Wasn't Welker offered a contract? I have a problem with players when they fret over the money they make. What the millions they were offered not good enough? The extra money they want is probably triple what average Americans make.

[OZOC01]

^^^ and before the Gronk groupies get their undies in a bunch from the above statement, it wasn't meant to be literal...

[OZOC01]

Wasn't Welker offered a contract? I have a problem with players when they fret over the money they make. What the millions they were offered not good enough? The extra money they want is probably triple what average Americans make.

I know, right. But their market value is on another level than what we (or at least I) make. If only I could run a 4.3 40, bench a Fiat and squat a Volvo ...

[Fx Stryker]

BTW, where was the great Gronkowski during the Super Bowl?!?!

Where was Welker too?

I know, right. But their market value is on another level than what we (or at least I) make. If only I could run a 4.3 40, bench a Fiat and squat a Volvo ...

Yea, but they play a game. Doctors save lives, and some don't even see half that.

[southwest1]

My sentiments exactly Fx Stryker. WR Wes Welker should have gotten a longterm contract first as opposed to the Gronk IMO. What the bleep are the NE Patriots doing? Yes, I know Welker signed his franchise tender, but come on. Wes Welker has proven his value to NE. Lock him up first with decent money. Welker has earned it. Then, secure your fantastic TE IMO.

Wasn't Welker offered a contract? I have a problem with players when they fret over the money they make. What the millions they were offered not good enough? The extra money they want is probably triple what average Americans make.

Yes FX, I will readily admit that the millions that Wes Welker makes this year will greatly exceed most middle class working families annual salaries. No question about that. However, every athlete is just 1 devastating injury from being cut or having their career end permanently. Every athlete has to get the most money they can while they can...Capitalism 101. That's just how the realm of professional sports work & why you pay your agent such a large commission.

[Fx Stryker]

Yes FX, I will readily admit that the millions that Wes Welker makes this year will greatly exceed most middle class working families annual salaries. No question about that. However, every athlete is just 1 devastating injury from being cut or having their career end permanently. Every athlete has to get the most money they can while they can...Capitalism 101. That's just how the realm of professional sports work & why you pay your agent such a large commission.

I think they all have a degree in something. Work like the rest of America. If they spent their in college with a nonsense degree because they only planned on a professional athletic career then that's their fault.

[Gavin]

Yes FX, I will readily admit that the millions that Wes Welker makes this year will greatly exceed most middle class working families annual salaries. No question about that. However, every athlete is just 1 devastating injury from being cut or having their career end permanently. Every athlete has to get the most money they can while they can...Capitalism 101. That's just how the realm of professional sports work & why you pay your agent such a large commission.

While I understand all your points, well said, what about workers such as construction workers who are in as much danger if not more or people that work on sky scrapers or firemen, those people dont make anything close to what athletes make

[southwest1]

I think they all have a degree in something. Work like the rest of America. If they spent their in college with a nonsense degree because they only planned on a professional athletic career then that's their fault.

Your point is a valid on FX Stryker I will grant you that. A number of NFL athletes will never make elite QB money & therefore fall back positions & alternative career moves must be thought about, explored, & planned for once no team franchise decides to pay an athlete anymore. No argument there.

[IndyTrav]

While I understand all your points, well said, what about workers such as construction workers who are in as much danger if not more or people that work on sky scrapers or firemen, those people dont make anything close to what athletes make

If we spent hundreds of dollars every day to see them work, bought shirts with there name and company logo on it, then got on forums and dissected every iota of there performance, they probably would.....until then....

[Gavin]

If we spent hundreds of dollars every day to see them work, bought shirts with there name and company logo on it, then got on forums and dissected every iota of there performance, they probably would.....until then....

Has do with the entertainment factor they are good at asport w e love so we pay to watch them so they get a piece of that pie

[southwest1]

Yes FX, I will readily admit that the millions that Wes Welker makes this year will greatly exceed most middle class working families annual salaries. No question about that. However, every athlete is just 1 devastating injury from being cut or having their career end permanently. Every athlete has to get the most money they can while they can...Capitalism 101. That's just how the realm of professional sports work & why you pay your agent such a large commission.

While I understand all your points, well said, what about workers such as construction workers who are in as much danger if not more or people that work on sky scrapers or firemen, those people dont make anything close to what athletes make

Yes, I agree certain professions like police, firefighters, smoke jumpers, EMT's, SWAT, & high beamer welders are entitled to higher financial compensation due to the skill & danger inherent in their occupation. Heck, I believe an educator with a Master's degree is grossly underpaid for their time, diligence, & expertise too Gavin.

It is sad & pathetic to see the millions an athlete can get just for running a crisp route, catching the ball, & taking a jacked up hit. I agree 100%. I don't make the rules as to who gets paid how much & for how long. Supply, demand, & someone willing to fork over millions for continued victories is the free market plan & simple. It sucks & may be wrong, but it is what it is. But, most people don't face violent collisions & concussions everyday day on the job site either. Not to mention memory loss & suicides as a direct result of their job duties either.

[-JJ-]

Opinions are debatable, facts are not. And facts does not cease to exist simply because they are ignored...

yes but some facts,especially in sports, are somewhat meaningless compared to the reality on the field and thus a good opinion of that situation overshadows the puny facts.

Now if we're talking say facts of a military ..well they would have more meaning.

Sports facts simply don't rule...which is why coaches don't use them. They are nothing more than what sports writers can put in a scorecard.

Many of the more important sports attributes cannot be scored. Not even quantified. Thus results and your own eyes tell more. Assuming an experienced opinion.

[UMLBB10]

Davis is a LOT faster than Gronk, and Davis is also a LOT stronger than Gronk too, doing 10 more reps at 225 when measured before they were drafted. Davis is the better blocker too, I'm thinking you haven't watched Davis at all in his career lol.

and with the first pick of the 1995 NFL draft Tony Sullivan selects Mike Mamula. because his 40 time was better than anyone elses and he benches a wicked lot

[GoPats]

"the truly great players shine anyway", by that logic your saying Reggie Wayne isnt that good because he didnt make Curtis Painter look good or Jerry Rice wasn't good because he had a revolving door of quarterbacks throwing to him in Oakland,

I think Reggie Wayne is a very good, but not great, receiver.

Are we comparing Larry Fitzgerald to someone who played with a really good quarterback every year? We're talking about one of the absolute best players in the NFL, at any position. And he plays a position that's used at a high level in every NFL offense.

You make some good points as usual, but... I go back to the statement I made earlier. I would bet you a paycheck that 32 out of 32 GMs in the league would take Gronkowski over Davis. He's more versatile, he's a bigger red zone threat, and he creates coverage mismatches that Davis has not capitalized on during his career.

And Larry Fitzgerald was one example, but c'mon... there have been lots of receivers in the NFL who became all-pros with or without a HOF quarterback.

Dang, and that was what I was hoping to accomplish when I typed that response... :hmm:

The post I was replying to stated Davis was slightly faster than Gronk. He did not specify in what compacity and I simply posted info that clearly conflicted with his statement, nothing more...you're the one reading too much into it for whatever reason, even though your username makes it pretty obvious what side of the fence you stand on and why you would come off as defensive concerning my post...

LOL, defensive huh?

OK, keep posting 40 times. Everyone knows how important those numbers are to people like the late Al Davis and Matt Millen. Me? I'll judge football players by, you know, how they play football.

BTW, where was the great Gronkowski during the Super Bowl?!?!

Playing on an ankle with two torn ligaments in it.

[Superman]

I think Reggie Wayne is a very good, but not great, receiver.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I agree 100%. I really, really like Reggie, because he's a technician, but he doesn't have the physical tools of other guys that set them apart, namely, speed and size. He is so productive because he is precise and a hard worker. But he's not a HOFer. He'd have to put up monstrous numbers to even be on the same level as Andre Reed and Cris Carter, two players who are stuck waiting.

You make some good points as usual, but... I go back to the statement I made earlier. I would bet you a paycheck that 32 out of 32 GMs in the league would take Gronkowski over Davis. He's more versatile, he's a bigger red zone threat, and he creates coverage mismatches that Davis has not capitalized on during his career.

That's kind of an abstract thought, though. No way to quantify whether 32 out of 32 GMs would choose one over the other. I wouldn't be shocked if that number worked out in favor of Gronkowski, seeing as how he's been more productive, but I don't know whether your characterization of him as more versatile is accurate. And it's easier to be more productive in the red zone and to take advantage of your mismatches when your quarterback knows what he's doing, especially if he's Tom Brady.

And Larry Fitzgerald was one example, but c'mon... there have been lots of receivers in the NFL who became all-pros with or without a HOF quarterback.

That's true. But we're not talking about a serviceable but ordinary quarterback. We're talking about a team that suffered through some of the worst quarterbacking in the NFL for the better part of a decade, not to mention the coaching carousel. And you're comparing a tight end on that team to a guy who has played with one of the best quarterbacks of all time. It's really not a fair comparison.

[GoPats]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I agree 100%. I really, really like Reggie, because he's a technician, but he doesn't have the physical tools of other guys that set them apart, namely, speed and size. He is so productive because he is precise and a hard worker. But he's not a HOFer. He'd have to put up monstrous numbers to even be on the same level as Andre Reed and Cris Carter, two players who are stuck waiting.

That's kind of an abstract thought, though. No way to quantify whether 32 out of 32 GMs would choose one over the other. I wouldn't be shocked if that number worked out in favor of Gronkowski, seeing as how he's been more productive, but I don't know whether your characterization of him as more versatile is accurate. And it's easier to be more productive in the red zone and to take advantage of your mismatches when your quarterback knows what he's doing, especially if he's Tom Brady.

That's true. But we're not talking about a serviceable but ordinary quarterback. We're talking about a team that suffered through some of the worst quarterbacking in the NFL for the better part of a decade, not to mention the coaching carousel. And you're comparing a tight end on that team to a guy who has played with one of the best quarterbacks of all time. It's really not a fair comparison.

I think I may have over-stated my opinion a little on this... I don't think Vernon Davis is a bum by any means. I stopped playing Madden a couple of years back but when I did he was always a TE I traded for or tried to pick up if I could. Immensely talented guy, really. Physical specimen. I know he's had injuries and was embroiled in the whole thing with Singletary a few years back ("I want winners").

I think he's one of the top TEs in the league, I really do. But Gronkowski had, what is in my opinion, the best season for a TE in the history of the league last season. He's clearly, at least for now, established himself as the best at what he does, and yes, he's more versatile because he's like a third tackle out there as a blocker. He just destroys people, which you don't get to see much unless you watch every Pats game, some of them in person.

And it's really strange, I gotta say, after hanging out on Indy boards for six or seven years now... to see Brady credited with making a guy better, lol! I remember when those arguments went the other way. ;)

[Superman]

I think I may have over-stated my opinion a little on this... I don't think Vernon Davis is a bum by any means. I stopped playing Madden a couple of years back but when I did he was always a TE I traded for or tried to pick up if I could. Immensely talented guy, really. Physical specimen. I know he's had injuries and was embroiled in the whole thing with Singletary a few years back ("I want winners").

I think he's one of the top TEs in the league, I really do. But Gronkowski had, what is in my opinion, the best season for a TE in the history of the league last season. He's clearly, at least for now, established himself as the best at what he does, and yes, he's more versatile because he's like a third tackle out there as a blocker. He just destroys people, which you don't get to see much unless you watch every Pats game, some of them in person.

And it's really strange, I gotta say, after hanging out on Indy boards for six or seven years now... to see Brady credited with making a guy better, lol! I remember when those arguments went the other way. ;)

You know how I am on the Brady argument. Never one to put the guy down.

And I get what you're saying on Davis vs. Gronkowski. I don't think you can argue with 17 touchdowns (really 18, if you include the one they changed to a rush in the Colts game). I just think analysis of his stats in comparison with Davis has to account for the difference in quarterbacks. Even if I didn't think Brady was one of the best ever, he's still head and shoulders above anyone -- ANYONE -- Vernon Davis has ever played with.

[Yehoodi]

I think they all have a degree in something. Work like the rest of America. If they spent their in college with a nonsense degree because they only planned on a professional athletic career then that's their fault.

Fx to be fair, it comes down to "fair" or shall I say equal compensation for services rendered . . . if the going rate for a hamburger flipper is X dollars all would want to be compensated close to X dollars if they got a hamburger flipping job . . . similiarly the compensation for a police officer is Y dollars and all cops would want to be paid near Y dollars . . . and so on . . . this continium is no different for WRs in the NFL . . . if player of equal skill is getting paid Z dollars so should a WR with the same skills . . . the fact that Z = 400X or Z=100Y does not change the situation.

Surely, we all cast a frustrating eyebrow to the pro atheltes (espically when the increase salaries raises the ticket prices and other merchandise making it very tough for some of us to go to a game) and afre happy when they take a cut in pay, and they can afford it . . . but much as it pains me to see a pro athelte complain about 200k of a 8.7 mil contract . . . I can see when they are coming from if the 8.7 mil is near what they are worth in the NFL . . . now if an 7.5 mil player is asking for 10 mil when then that is another thing altogether . . .

[Yehoodi]

All good thoughts proceeding this. I am in agreement.

Ben Watson played with Brady, though. If Vernon Davis had played with a good quarterback at any point in his career, and had failed to put up numbers or look like a good player, then we could compare him to Watson. But Davis' numbers with San Francisco are better than Watson's numbers with New England. Now, as you said, the Pats system wasn't tight end heavy (even in 2007, Watson only caught 36 passes), but I don't think the Niners have really featured the tight end at any point in Davis' time there. He even spent time under Mike Martz, a coordinator who is famous for NOT using tight ends. There's simply no comparison, numbers wise.

Then the physical attributes, which Davis wins that comparison as well. The measurables say that Davis is noticeably faster, and just as strong. This is no surprise; Davis had one of the most impressive Combine performances of all time. That doesn't make him a better player, just saying, Benjamin Watson was athletic, but he's no Vernon Davis. And the draft stock and position speak to that difference as well: Watson was drafted #32, Davis was drafted #6.

I don't know about school records, but there's nothing shoddy about Davis' collegiate numbers. And he played for a team threw the ball significantly less than Gronkowski's Wildcats team.

Smith's career has been unfortunate, to say the least. Not all his fault; management up there couldn't get out of their own way. I lost count how many coordinators and coaches they've been through since drafting Smith. They really didn't give him the kind of environment you want to give a young quarterback. That said, his performance hasn't been good, whether it's his fault or not. And that affects the receivers that he plays with, so it's unreasonable to judge them solely on the basis of their numbers, without acknowledging the poor quarterback play.

Supes, as usual you and I pretty much agree . . . I was just point out a few points that a per athelte is not always the best football player . . . I just brought Ben Watson as an example to show the prior posters of how a near perfect athelte with a great college career is not a de facto great player in the NFL . . .nor is a stronger faster (using the drills in the combine to define this) is not always a tiebreaker among atheltes . . .

With that said I do think some poster got rapped up in Vernon's body and translated that to the fields . . .

Back to the comparison, one thing that I did not mention was how much is Davis involved in the offense . . . I do remember something to the effect in the NFCCG that Smith only threw one or two passes to the WRs and the rest was to the TEs and RBs . . . so Davis may see more balls then Gronk (would love to track down a "thrown to" stat for the two players), perhaps he may be doubled teamed more, but if he see more throws than Gronk then I would take Gronk as he has done more with the throws . . .

True TB has a big factor in Gronks success . . . but at the same time Gronk is talented enough that the Pats morpth their offense to the TEs . . . and he came through whereas Watson did not . . .

[UMLBB10]

BTW, where was the great Gronkowski during the Super Bowl?!?!

where was the great Vernon Davis in the SB?

[IndyTrav]

where was the great Vernon Davis in the SB?

His 10rec 292yds 4TDs in 2 playoff games wasn't enough to get him there......

[dw49]

Both great TE's but IMO the Pat guy is just a better football player. But for the Davis supporters , he does not have the QB or system that Gronk has.

[ViriLudant]

His 10rec 292yds 4TDs in 2 playoff games wasn't enough to get him there......

Gronk's 17 receptions, 258 yards, 3 TDs in 2.5 games was...

I honestly do think that the Patriots would have won the SB with a healthy Gronkowski. It's unfortunate.

[GoPats]

I honestly do think that the Patriots would have won the SB with a healthy Gronkowski. It's unfortunate.

He even got tantalizingly close to grabbing that Hail Mary...

[Tony Sullivan]

and with the first pick of the 1995 NFL draft Tony Sullivan selects Mike Mamula. because his 40 time was better than anyone elses and he benches a wicked lot

What are you talking about, you said Gronk was faster and stronger not me. I just provided evidence to the contrary.

[ViriLudant]

What are you talking about, you said Gronk was faster and stronger not me. I just provided evidence to the contrary.

I don't think that anyone said that he was faster. I said that Davis was SLIGHTLY faster.

And on the actually field where they actually play football, that's true.

Gronk is the better TE. And every NFL exec and coach would agree with me.