Jump to content
Indianapolis Colts
Indianapolis Colts Fan Forum

4 Biggest Needs Met


Recommended Posts

What's hilarious to me are the people that come to a message board (which has the sole purpose of allowing people to express their own opinions) and can't make any type of reasonable argument other than "well you must be wrong because GM's have more information". Guess what? Matt Millen had a lot more information than we did...how did him being the Lion's GM work out? The front office folk responsible for picks like Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, etc etc etc etc etc all had more information than we the fans did.

Incidentally, profootballweekly, Lindy's, Mel Kiper, Mike Mayok etc etc also have more information than we do and according to their expert evaluations, some of our picks could be described as a reach. So what are we "Unknowing" folk supposed to do when one guy with more information says one thing but another guy with more information says something else? I guess we's just sit back and trust them guys who get paid for this stuff...the way fans had such trust in Caldwell and the Polians (guys who also had more information than we did but who 99.9% of the Colts fan base wanted to personally escort out of town).

Spot on. What everyone needs to understand, is that these professional scouts, GMs, and mock drafters, all make hundreds of mistakes in a given draft. Any time a GM drafts somebody whose career doesn't pan out, he makes a mistake.....even if he drafts him in the 7th round. There are always players in the 7th round and who go undrafted, that end up having good careers.

The draft is filled with a ton of guesswork, albeit very educated guesswork. These scouts are not without fault. I am quite the homer when it comes to my team, but I will call a bad pick what it is, because I realize that just because these guys have a job in an NFL front office, does not mean they are without fault.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 95
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I don't mind the TE's. Thats good. Especially the mate from Stanford who Luck is very accustomed to.

I just don;t understand the 2 puny WR's. I mean comon mate. Look at other teams. They are drafting WR's size of Boldin and the monster from Detroit. They are all big.

That monster from Detroit is a once in a generation type wide receiver. If you can show me a 6'5, 240lb, receiver with 4.3 forty time, 43 inch vertical and strong college level production without any character issues that we passed on, then I will defer to you on this.

Otherwise I believe this Arians offense he's trying to run. He's had success with small fast receivers before (Mike Wallace, Santonio Holmes, Antonio Brown) and I can see the merit to his passing game philosophy (Stretch the field with speedy wideouts and let the matchup nightmares of tight ends we drafted reek havoc with short and intermediate routes).

I just don't like the idea of needing to score 40 points to win games. That's where we are headed to.

You seem to be implying that drafting a CB would have been the pick we needed to win a superbowl this year. While I hope that we can be over .500 this year, the truth is we're probably going be be somewhere between bad and below average. We aren't going to be competitive until at least 2013, so what does it matter if we draft our defense this year or next year.

Another thing thats bothering me right now are the people criticizing our pick of Harnish with the 253rd pick. He's called Mr. Irrelevant for a good reason. It's not the nicest title to carry but that doesn't mean it's not true. Saying that we should have picked this player or that isn't going to make the pick Mr. Slightly Less Irrelevant.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Cory Redding, Brandon McKinney and Tom Zbikowski are as good right now as any prospects in this year's draft, and will go a long way to improving our defense right away. Long term, you want to add some guys in the draft who can grow with the team and be with you for several years, but there's this idea that drafting a highly rated corner automatically improves our pass defense next season. I'd argue that the free agent signings we made, coupled with our scheme changes, will be dramatically more impactful than any rookie corner, nose tackle or linebacker. And that being the case, I'm looking for significant improvement defensively this season, without regard for anyone we drafted.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You're hilarious. You speculate that, based on position, the guy is not going to be as fast as WRs. Ever hear of guys by the name of Mike Williams, Dwayne Jarrett, Reggie Williams, etc? Jarrett ran a 4.62. M. Williams a 4.61. Reggie Williams a 4.45. Of those guys, Fleener ran a faster 40 than 2 of them, and tied the other.

Whether you believe it or not, a 40 time is indicative of straight line speed. Hester, Chris Johnson, Reggie Bush, etc. ran blazing 40s under 4.4. Does that make them great at their positions? Not necessarily. A lot more factors into football than just speed.

As for Fleener and his speed, well, suffice it to say that a fast big bodied guy who is commonly covered by LBs who aren't as fast, or safeties who aren't as big, and you can see a mismatch waiting to happen. Not many 6-6 guys run that fast. All things considered, if they have to compensate for that mismatch, it opens up the offense.

And whether you believe it or not, Fleener is just as fast as MOST WRs in the NFL. He may not be as agile or quick, but his speed is on par with a lot of them. That, in itself, makes him a matchup problem for opposing defenses.

you completely missed the whole point. Congratulations!!!

next time read things carefully. We are talking about drafting tiny puny WR's and how it's not the best thing to do.

All I was saying is that big NFL WR's are faster and better leapers that any NFL TE's. Especially unproven rookies.

Read again and then you can come talk to me. You wasted too much time typing your beautiful essay which is absolutely irrelevant to what I am trying to say.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • I see this draft as a good one. With out anyone for Luck to throw to, whats the point of having him here? We had Wayne and Collie on the reciever side. No tight end to speak of in the recieving corp, and I think we found a guy to give Brown a run for his money as the starter. The holes will be filled in over this year and next. Plug and play, see who fits where, defensively speaking., Any upgrade from last year is good. But why have a ridiculosly good defense that gives up nothing if you gain nothing offensively. I think we are gonna wine more games than most think.

Link to post
Share on other sites

you completely missed the whole point. Congratulations!!!

next time read things carefully. We are talking about drafting tiny puny WR's and how it's not the best thing to do.

All I was saying is that big NFL WR's are faster and better leapers that any NFL TE's. Especially unproven rookies.

Read again and then you can come talk to me. You wasted too much time typing your beautiful essay which is absolutely irrelevant to what I am trying to say.

1) What's wrong with smaller receivers? Welker is small, Steve Smith, Victor Cruz, Mike Wallace, Antonio Brown... All four were top 20 receivers in yardage last season. Percy Harvin is small, and he was 6th in receptions. There's also Desean Jackson. There's a role for smaller receivers in the NFL. They can't all be 6'3", 230 pounds, with 40" verticals.

2) How is it true that big receivers are faster and better leapers than any tight ends? And what does being an unproven rookie have to do with how fast you are or how high you jump? Your speed and leaping ability aren't worse because you're a rookie.

3) Speed is speed. Fleener's speed is elite for any NFL player, period, tight end or receiver. You're calling him slow for no reason other than the position he plays, which is kind of nuts. It's like saying that a safety is slower than a corner, or a quarterback is slower than a running back, without regard for the fact that speed is not beholden to the position the player plays. Same thing for leaping ability.

4) If you don't like the players we drafted, that's obviously your prerogative. I'm sure you have your reasons, whether anyone else agrees with them or not. But it doesn't really make sense to downgrade a player because of his size when he's proven he's capable of producing at a high level. Scouts and draftniks thought very highly of T.Y. Hilton, and you're dismissing him because he doesn't meet your size standard. And it really makes no sense, because some of the best receivers in the league are his size. Why not give these players a chance on the field before you decide they make no sense as draft picks?

5) Doesn't the fact that we signed a few veteran defenders and we have a different coaching staff play a role with our defense? Won't the players we added have an impact?

Link to post
Share on other sites

you completely missed the whole point. Congratulations!!!

next time read things carefully. We are talking about drafting tiny puny WR's and how it's not the best thing to do.

All I was saying is that big NFL WR's are faster and better leapers that any NFL TE's. Especially unproven rookies.

Read again and then you can come talk to me. You wasted too much time typing your beautiful essay which is absolutely irrelevant to what I am trying to say.

And my question is what the heck are you basing your "facts" on other than your own opinion.

The combine gives real numbers. 41" vertical. 4.45 second 40 yard dash.

If you want to base it on averages, I can give you the concept that wide receivers are faster, better jumpers, more agile, quick, etc. It is far easier for a 180lb receiver to run a 4.3 than it is for a 250lb TE.

The reality is that there are outliers in every category. Vernon Davis is probably the fastest TE in the league, Hernandez maybe being close. He can run with just about anybody, except for maybe the Mike Wallaces of the world. You can't even begin to try and tell me that because Austin Collie is a receiver, that means he's a better jumper and faster runner than Vernon Davis because he is a TE.

As for the unproven rookies bit... well, when you talk about speed, that much is proven. When you talk about jumping height, that much is proven. That's what the combine is for. It gives GMs and scout physical characteristics of the players they are looking at drafting. Dontari Poe shot up to the 11th pick because of his freakish athleticism for a 350lber.

As for drafting "tiny puny" wide receivers, not many teams have a Calvin Johnson type of guy. And should a guy turn out to be as good as Calvin Johnson, you're going to be dedicating a lot of your cap to that player. Small faster guys are much easier to find in the draft, and at much lower rounds. Steve Smith is a great example of an over looked guy who basically set out to prove the world wrong. Marvin Harrison, while a bit taller, is another guy who, despite his frail frame, proved to everyone that he was a legit #1 wide receiver.

For me, too many fans get caught up in size. It's ridiculous. We'll have two 6 footers in Wayne and Collie, two 5'11 guys in Avery and Brazill, and a 5'10" guy in Hilton. I could see us drafting a Floyd type of receiver in a year or two, but it wasn't in the cards this year.

And precisely what point did I miss anyway? Your speculation that based on nothing other than your opinion that TEs are not the same athletes as WRs? Seems interesting that it is based on nothing other than position. If that question is so easy for you to answer, who would you say is the better athlete between WRs vs. CBs. HBs vs S.

To me, the point you're missing is every single position has outliers. Guys that defy the notion of being just a TE. Guys that are better athletes than 99% of the people in their position. Those outliers often find themselves being right there with other sets of freakish athletes. Vernon Davis is the top TE in terms of athleticism. You put him at WR, and he is likely in the top 20% still, maybe even higher. That part is not debatable.

Fleener to me is an exceptional athlete. He is not yet an exceptional NFL caliber TE. He'll have to prove that one. But his athleticism is better than some of our WRs. His talent is yet to be proven, but his athleticism is a known quantity at this point, thanks to the combine.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Spot on. What everyone needs to understand, is that these professional scouts, GMs, and mock drafters, all make hundreds of mistakes in a given draft. Any time a GM drafts somebody whose career doesn't pan out, he makes a mistake.....even if he drafts him in the 7th round. There are always players in the 7th round and who go undrafted, that end up having good careers.

The draft is filled with a ton of guesswork, albeit very educated guesswork. These scouts are not without fault. I am quite the homer when it comes to my team, but I will call a bad pick what it is, because I realize that just because these guys have a job in an NFL front office, does not mean they are without fault.

1. No one said they are without fault.

2. The fact that these guys do it for a living and have more info isn't the SOLE argument. It just means they have more knowledge and experience than even the collective efforts of most message boards. They are, therefore, more qualified.

Stop sensationalizing the voices of those in opposition.

Do they make mistakes? Absolutely, but I'm sure you make just as many at your job, yet your boss wouldn't trust a nobody off the street to replace you in a bind, right?

Fans watch tv, which dramatically limits which teams and players they get to see. A few take to the internet and watch highlight reels on YouTube. That puffs up a talent probably more so than he deserves. They then fill the boards with their expert opinions, all the while SCREAMING at their FO when they didn't take a certain well-known commodity.

Courtney Upshaw is a great example. I was on four boards at the same time, and fans on each board were screaming when their turn would come up, and that guy stayed on the board. Reason? Because they knew his name, and thus assumed he would awesome. That's the fan basis: recognition. What they didn't consider is why every team kept passing on him until he landed in Baltimore. These teams with more information, film, and scouts kept letting him pass by.

They are right more often than the fans are. That is an indisputable fact. Anything supporting the contrary is delusional. We notice the gaffs so often because those are headline worthy. It's not news to point out that the Vikings drafted Adrian Peterson and he exceeded expectations.

Link to post
Share on other sites

1. No one said they are without fault.

2. The fact that these guys do it for a living and have more info isn't the SOLE argument. It just means they have more knowledge and experience than even the collective efforts of most message boards. They are, therefore, more qualified.

Stop sensationalizing the voices of those in opposition.

Do they make mistakes? Absolutely, but I'm sure you make just as many at your job, yet your boss wouldn't trust a nobody off the street to replace you in a bind, right?

Fans watch tv, which dramatically limits which teams and players they get to see. A few take to the internet and watch highlight reels on YouTube. That puffs up a talent probably more so than he deserves. They then fill the boards with their expert opinions, all the while SCREAMING at their FO when they didn't take a certain well-known commodity.

Courtney Upshaw is a great example. I was on four boards at the same time, and fans on each board were screaming when their turn would come up, and that guy stayed on the board. Reason? Because they knew his name, and thus assumed he would awesome. That's the fan basis: recognition. What they didn't consider is why every team kept passing on him until he landed in Baltimore. These teams with more information, film, and scouts kept letting him pass by.

They are right more often than the fans are. That is an indisputable fact. Anything supporting the contrary is delusional. We notice the gaffs so often because those are headline worthy. It's not news to point out that the Vikings drafted Adrian Peterson and he exceeded expectations.

You're lumping all fans into one category which is not at all fair. Yes, I'm sure there are a lot of people that know names but nothing else about the players and therefore go by name recognition. There are also fans that follow specific teams that know players of that team very well so these fans would know a lot more about specific players than just name recognition. Other fans may have no specific team affiliation and simply watched as much college football as they could. These fans would have much more knowledge on many players than just name recognition. However, I grant you that no matter what category a fan falls into they are still just that, fans, and we don't have the information at our disposal that NFL talent scouts, GM's etc have. That still doesn't have to stop us fans from having and expressing our opinions.

As for the Upshaw example, I actually think he was a very poor example for you to use. Billy Winn would have been a much better example. Teams did not "keep passing on him". For the most part, he was passed on one time by each team. As to why he was passed, there could be a number of reasons that don't have anything to do with him. In round 1 and the top of round 2, you're looking at mostly blue-chip type players but can only take one at a time. If Pittsburgh didn't have such glaring holes on their OL then I'm sure they'd have loved to have taken him and I'm sure the same could be said for several other teams. It's been widely speculated and reported that Upshaw would have been Baltimore's pick at the end of the 1st round if they hadn't been able to find a trade partner. However they did find a trade partner and took the gamble that Upshaw would still be there when they came around again. Well played Baltimore. :)

So yeah, I think a guy like Billy Winn is a better example for what you were trying to go for. He was graded as late 2nd to early 3rd round talent but wasn't taken until a 6th round compensatory pick. I thought the Colts should have taken him with their 5th round comp. pick and taken a RB a little bit later. When you have a chance to draft such early graded talent that late in the draft then I think it would be hard to pass on that. Sure, there has to be a reason he fell that far and I'd love to know what that is because I can't find anything. However, I would want to consider what the reason or reasons are that he fell and weigh that vs. the fact we could have picked him at the end of the 5th round and see if it was worth the gamble. Maybe that's exactly what they did and if so then well done Colts. However, it's also possible that the Colts removed him from their board completely for whatever reason it was that caused him to fall. Maybe that reason forced them to decide that they wouldn't spend a high pick (2nd/3rd) on him and that's perfectly reasonable. However, when that same player is still there a couple of rounds later, I would want to revisit that player and determine whether he was worth the gamble at the end of the 5th round. Again, maybe that's exactly what they did.

However, Grigson kept saying that they stuck to their board and were disciplined etc etc. I do think that's a good thing for the most part, but at the same time I would prefer to keep a little bit of flexibility for instances for when a player falls. I would prefer to keep the flexibility to come back and revisit that player if he fell further than he was expected to. You may wind up getting a very talented player with a chip on his shoulder for falling so far, like a Maurice Jones-Drew, Arian Foster, Victor Cruz etc.

Link to post
Share on other sites

1. No one said they are without fault.

2. The fact that these guys do it for a living and have more info isn't the SOLE argument. It just means they have more knowledge and experience than even the collective efforts of most message boards. They are, therefore, more qualified.

Stop sensationalizing the voices of those in opposition.

Do they make mistakes? Absolutely, but I'm sure you make just as many at your job, yet your boss wouldn't trust a nobody off the street to replace you in a bind, right?

Fans watch tv, which dramatically limits which teams and players they get to see. A few take to the internet and watch highlight reels on YouTube. That puffs up a talent probably more so than he deserves. They then fill the boards with their expert opinions, all the while SCREAMING at their FO when they didn't take a certain well-known commodity.

Courtney Upshaw is a great example. I was on four boards at the same time, and fans on each board were screaming when their turn would come up, and that guy stayed on the board. Reason? Because they knew his name, and thus assumed he would awesome. That's the fan basis: recognition. What they didn't consider is why every team kept passing on him until he landed in Baltimore. These teams with more information, film, and scouts kept letting him pass by.

They are right more often than the fans are. That is an indisputable fact. Anything supporting the contrary is delusional. We notice the gaffs so often because those are headline worthy. It's not news to point out that the Vikings drafted Adrian Peterson and he exceeded expectations.

Hey man, all I was doing was echoing what Jason was saying. He responded to a previous post that basically said we fans shouldn't question the moves the FO makes, because they know more than us. My point remains, just because they have a job with a FO, does not mean they are without fault. On a message board in which we can voice our opinions, I still stand by my opinion that some of the later picks in our draft could have been better spent.

Am I right? Only time will tell......

Link to post
Share on other sites

we didn't need a quarter back. we had the greatest in history. We just needed a CB, OL, NT and a marquis RB.

so it really depends on how you look at things.

Let. It. Go.

Plus, when the GOAT wants to go a grazing in another meadow, there is not much you can do. They are pretty stubborn animals.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Come on guys. Corner Back was our major need after the QB. We all said so for 4 months. I'm all for being optimistic, but pretending we covered our biggest needs is plain homerism. It was a good draft, we don't need to make it better than it was through pretence.

And don't say coaching, unless you are suggesting we should have stayed with Painter and let the coaches make him great.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Come on guys. Corner Back was our major need after the QB. We all said so for 4 months. I'm all for being optimistic, but pretending we covered our biggest needs is plain homerism. It was a good draft, we don't need to make it better than it was through pretence.

You can go back months. You can go back to during the season, and see how I felt about our cornerbacks. You can see how I felt about releasing Justin Tryon, how I felt about Terrence Johnson, our #4 corner. It's not homerism for me to say that our corners aren't as bad as they're made out to be. It's not pretense for me to say that our draft worked out really well.

And by the way, I continue to say that I fully expected us to draft a cornerback.

And don't say coaching, unless you are suggesting we should have stayed with Painter and let the coaches make him great.

What does one have to do with the other?

Link to post
Share on other sites

You can go back months. You can go back to during the season, and see how I felt about our cornerbacks. You can see how I felt about releasing Justin Tryon, how I felt about Terrence Johnson, our #4 corner. It's not homerism for me to say that our corners aren't as bad as they're made out to be. It's not pretense for me to say that our draft worked out really well.

And by the way, I continue to say that I fully expected us to draft a cornerback.

What does one have to do with the other?

Ok, there were some exceptions. You being one of them. It was a generalisation really. My point re coaching was a pre-emptive line to those that might comment that our CB's were bad due to poor coaching, rather than them being of insufficient calibre.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, there were some exceptions. You being one of them. It was a generalisation really. My point re coaching was a pre-emptive line to those that might comment that our CB's were bad due to poor coaching, rather than them being of insufficient calibre.

The coaching made our cornerback play worse. It also made our pass rush worse.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...