Integrity of the Game

[bluebombers87]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

It's amazing to me that anyone would think this kind of conspiracy could be kept under wraps.

If it’s just one person…

 

I know I wouldn’t rat myself out.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, Superman said:

 

It's amazing to me that anyone would think this kind of conspiracy could be kept under wraps.

I am just throwing it out there after what I seen yesterday. I don't trust the REFS at all or league at all. That is why moving forward if we lose, I am not going to let it ruin my week. Not worth it  

[2006Coltsbestever]

For the people that think nothing fishy at all is going on, I don't want to hear one peep out of them if we get a call go our way that is obviously horrible that helps us win. I will say Karma and scoreboard, the REFS are awesome  .

[Two_pound]

Here's a sobering thought for some of you. I did some research years ago because it appeared to me every time Walt Coleman reffed a Colt game we LOST. And on top of that the officiating was very sketchy. Well here's what I found. From 2002-2010 the Colts won approximately 78% of their games. Their record in games officiated by the great Walt Coleman's crew over that span was 5-11(including playoff games). I have always wondered how a team that wins so many games over a nine year span could have such a poor record in games officiated by one particular crew. One other note, 2 of those 5 wins came in 2002 against the expansion Texans and the Bills(who I believe finished 3-13 that season). Maybe someone could help me understand that statistical oddity.

[BlackTiger]

I dont think the whole thing is rigged but there could easily be times where a game was influenced by a ref or someone else who bet on the game.

 

Refs are humans with biased opinions too, there can be times where they dont go with the rule book and go with what they just want at the time.  Personally i think thats what happened yesterday, no way that was catch able

[Superman]

10 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

If it’s just one person…

 

I know I wouldn’t rat myself out.

 

What about the other refs on the crew? No one would step in yesterday and say 'that's uncatchable, it landed 12 feet out of bounds'? 

[Two_pound]

Here's another fact that is probably just a huge coincidence. The officiating crew in the "tuck rule" playoff game in the 2001 season and the crew who did the 2003 afc championship game- Walt Coleman himself did both games. Something else I found interesting was after the 2003 afc championship game Walt Coleman did not officiate another Colt game until the final game of the 2006 season.

[Superman]

30 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

For the people that think nothing fishy at all is going on, I don't want to hear one peep out of them if we get a call go our way that is obviously horrible that helps us win. I will say Karma and scoreboard, the REFS are awesome  .

 

Wait a minute...

 

The Colts got away with two non call penalties at the end of the Ravens game. Your response was basically 'we caught a break.' 

 

Now the Colts get the short end of a call in the Browns game, and your conclusion is the NFL is rigged.

 

??? 

 

How come this week's unfavorable situation isn't karma for the favorable situation a few weeks ago?

[chad72]

34 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

What about the other refs on the crew? No one would step in yesterday and say 'that's uncatchable, it landed 12 feet out of bounds'? 

 

That is what perplexed me. They always have a conference and it is impossible for anyone with a modicum of experience as a ref to not have that thought go through their mind.

 

The illegal contact, I could live with but this was so egregious like that missed call vs Saints going in favor of the Rams in the 2018 NFCCG when their DB made obvious premature contact with the WR but it wasn't called (basically denied us a Brees vs Brady SB and gave us a snooze fest). 

[Superman]

1 minute ago, chad72 said:

 

That is what perplexed me. They always have a conference and it is impossible for anyone with a modicum of experience as a ref to not have that thought go through their mind.

 

The illegal contact, I could live with but this was so egregious like that missed call vs Saints going in favor of the Rams in the 2018 NFCCG when their DB made obvious premature contact with the WR but it wasn't called (basically denied us a Brees vs Brady SB). 

 

How do we know they didn't have a conference? I assume they did, tbh, but it wasn't shown on TV.

 

I don't think this was anywhere near that Saints/Rams game. First, Baker actually interfered. Second, they could have just called defensive holding, the timing of the throw vs the contact with the receiver was close enough. I think the Colts got shafted, but I'm not as outraged as everyone else seems to be.

 

By contrast, the play in the Saints/Rams game was a clear and obvious PI, and something the NFL should be able to fix on the spot, but won't change the rule to allow the review.

 

Also, I hate the 'we should have put the game already' kind of response, but I think it's appropriate here. Pittman's penalty was a back breaker, and I was upset about it at the time. I think we go for 2 if not for the taunting call. Then we got the ball again with 3:39 left and a five point lead, and we couldn't get one first down. Then we gave up an 80 yard TD drive, to PJ Walker, partly because our sub corner can't cover without committing a penalty. So I don't think it's appropriate to reduce the result of this game down to one bad call at the end of the game.

[GoPats]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

It's amazing to me that anyone would think this kind of conspiracy could be kept under wraps.

 

This. ^^^

 

I know my opinion is discounted since I'm a Patriots fan, LOL... but most conspiracy theories (in general, not just sports) are implausible to me because of the sheer number of people it would require to keep said conspiracy clandestine. I've spent most of my professional life managing large groups of people and I can tell you for sure that human nature goes against the concept. 

 

No disrespect intended to you, @2006Coltsbestever. We've always gotten along just fine, but I simply can't see this the way you do. 

 

 

 

[bluebombers87]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

What about the other refs on the crew? No one would step in yesterday and say 'that's uncatchable, it landed 12 feet out of bounds'? 

They didn’t yesterday did they?

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

They didn’t yesterday did they?

 

And wouldn't that indicate that it's not a one-person job, but rather a conspiracy involving multiple participants?

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I would love to hear @Superman, @NFLfan, @NewColtsFan, @w87rthoughts on this subject because I am very weary of how the NFL is being ran right now. @Jared Cisneros as well wanting your opinion.

Full disclosure:   
 

I did not see yesterdays game. (Bad sciatic pain)  But from what I’ve seen it’s likely I would’ve been a pretty upset fan. 
 

The pass into the corner at the end of the game landed roughly 10 yards beyond the back of the end zone.    There used to be a rule where if the pass was not playable in the field of play that the penalty flag would be picked up and wouldn’t count.   Perhaps that rule has changed?   But calling a penalty in that situation looked ridiculous.   Completely ridiculous.   To any reasonable fan I think it was a terrible look for the NFL.  
 

Im sure Steichen/Ballard has written a letter to the NFL.   I doubt we will hear much about it.   I’m curious what Steichen will say publicly today. 

[bluebombers87]

Just now, Superman said:

 

And wouldn't that indicate that it's not a one-person job, but rather a conspiracy involving multiple participants?

Or that one ref can make a call and have it not challenged by the other members of the group.

 

There were other refs in the NBA who didn’t stop it or allowed it to happen. There were others who allowed to happen in the MLB.

 

How many times have we seen the head official accept what one other person saw as the truth and move forward with it?

[chad72]

37 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

How do we know they didn't have a conference? I assume they did, tbh, but it wasn't shown on TV.

 

I don't think this was anywhere near that Saints/Rams game. First, Baker actually interfered. Second, they could have just called defensive holding, the timing of the throw vs the contact with the receiver was close enough. I think the Colts got shafted, but I'm not as outraged as everyone else seems to be.

 

By contrast, the play in the Saints/Rams game was a clear and obvious PI, and something the NFL should be able to fix on the spot, but won't change the rule to allow the review.

 

Also, I hate the 'we should have put the game already' kind of response, but I think it's appropriate here. Pittman's penalty was a back breaker, and I was upset about it at the time. I think we go for 2 if not for the taunting call. Then we got the ball again with 3:39 left and a five point lead, and we couldn't get one first down. Then we gave up an 80 yard TD drive, to PJ Walker, partly because our sub corner can't cover without committing a penalty. So I don't think it's appropriate to reduce the result of this game down to one bad call at the end of the game.

 

I just find it hard to believe that even if just ONE of them brought up the uncatchable point, which if considered, could have had an implication on the call, again just speculating. If they did, I could have seen another 5 yarder illegal contact like you said. Would have liked the Browns try it from farther than the goal line.

 

But no, this doesn't mean that there is a conspiracy or whatsoever, because there are too many gray areas in officiating that still lends to subjectivity and no, I am not on the "integrity of the game is compromised" bandwagon. I might have been emotional during the time the call was made but considering all angles, it was just a terrible call, IMO, and that part, I won't go back on.

[bluebombers87]

57 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Wait a minute...

 

The Colts got away with two non call penalties at the end of the Ravens game. Your response was basically 'we caught a break.' 

 

Now the Colts get the short end of a call in the Browns game, and your conclusion is the NFL is rigged.

 

??? 

 

How come this week's unfavorable situation isn't karma for the favorable situation a few weeks ago?

So wait, the idea of money corrupting someone to intentionally manipulate a football game is ludicrous, but a cosmic force that balances out misfortune is an acceptable explanation?

[Solid84]

2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

For the people that think nothing fishy at all is going on, I don't want to hear one peep out of them if we get a call go our way that is obviously horrible that helps us win. I will say Karma and scoreboard, the REFS are awesome  .

I will just point out it was a bad call, like I did with the bad calls during the Browns-Colts game. Doesn’t make it altered/rigged/scripted. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, bluebombers87 said:

So wait, the idea of money corrupting someone to intentionally manipulate a football game is ludicrous, but a cosmic force that balances out misfortune is an acceptable explanation?

 

I don't know where you got lost, but karma wasn't my argument.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, bluebombers87 said:

Or that one ref can make a call and have it not challenged by the other members of the group.

 

There were other refs in the NBA who didn’t stop it or allowed it to happen. There were others who allowed to happen in the MLB.

 

How many times have we seen the head official accept what one other person saw as the truth and move forward with it?

 

Again, if you think one person can manipulate the outcome of NFL games and not get caught, that's amazing to me.

[NFLfan]

This is a thought-provoking discussion. There are times when I momentarily believe that calls are made in favor of some teams. There was a Cowboys Lions playoff games when I thought the Lions got robbed at the end of the game. I used to think that the Packers and Patriots received most of the favorable calls in the last ten years or so. Then some teams seem unlucky and seem to get bad calls (the Lions, the Jets). Having said that, I do not believe the games are rigged or are deliberately altered by the refs to favor a select number of teams or to hurt some teams. I also do not believe the refs are involved in gambling.

 

I believe that questionable calls made at critical times in games, especially against teams we root for elicit strong reactions and are remembered. The day I truly believe the games are rigged will be the day I will no longer follow football.

[NFLfan]

17 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I would love to hear @Superman, @NFLfan, @NewColtsFan, @w87rthoughts on this subject because I am very weary of how the NFL is being ran right now. @Jared Cisneros as well wanting your opinion.

 

I answered above. I get what you mean and it is very upsetting when these game-changing calls are made. That Tuck game was terrible. I was upset when the Cowboys beat the Lions in that playoff game a few years ago. (No team I dislike more than the Cowboys. Lol.) There are awful calls in many games.  But I don't think they are being called deliberately. Some teams seem to be luckier when getting calls but probably all teams benefit from favorable calls at one time or other. We just don't remember those as much as we do unfavorable calls that lose games for those teams we are rooting for.

[bluebombers87]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I don't know where you got lost, but karma wasn't my argument.

Probably the part where you specifically said karma

 

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Wait a minute...

 

The Colts got away with two non call penalties at the end of the Ravens game. Your response was basically 'we caught a break.' 

 

Now the Colts get the short end of a call in the Browns game, and your conclusion is the NFL is rigged.

 

??? 

 

How come this week's unfavorable situation isn't karma for the favorable situation a few weeks ago?

 

[bluebombers87]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Again, if you think one person can manipulate the outcome of NFL games and not get caught, that's amazing to me.

It happened in the NBA. It happened in the MLB. Just because they haven’t been caught is not evidence of it not happening at all. It’s a very naive take.

 

It would be very easy for a ref to call a hold and end a teams drive to cover the spread for example. Incredibly easy in fact. They have someone like a spouse or sibling make the bet and poof. There you have it.

[RollerColt]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Full disclosure:   
 

I did not see yesterdays game. (Bad sciatic pain)  But from what I’ve seen it’s likely I would’ve been a pretty upset fan. 
 

The pass into the corner at the end of the game landed roughly 10 yards beyond the back of the end zone.    There used to be a rule where if the pass was not playable in the field of play that the penalty flag would be picked up and wouldn’t count.   Perhaps that rule has changed?   But calling a penalty in that situation looked ridiculous.   Completely ridiculous.   To any reasonable fan I think it was a terrible look for the NFL.  
 

Im sure Steichen/Ballard has written a letter to the NFL.   I doubt we will hear much about it.   I’m curious what Steichen will say publicly today. 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, RollerColt said:

Im a lover of Big Cats, so this is PERFECT for me!    Many thanks!     

[coltsva]

One thing I don’t get: twice in the game, after a penalty call, in an attempt to get the call right, the refs huddled up and said “there is no foul on the play” and picked up the flag. How is it, in the play that would have essentially ended the game, do they not make sure they get it right. 
The league has a competency problem, but until viewing and attendance drops, nothing will change. 
I’ve been a fan for over 50 years, but I am starting to feel a bit foolish investing my time, money, and emotion into this product. 

 

 

[Superman]

3 hours ago, bluebombers87 said:

Probably the part where you specifically said karma

 

 

 

Did you miss the post that introduced karma to the discussion? 

[Superman]

3 hours ago, bluebombers87 said:

It happened in the NBA. It happened in the MLB. Just because they haven’t been caught is not evidence of it not happening at all. It’s a very naive take.

 

It would be very easy for a ref to call a hold and end a teams drive to cover the spread for example. Incredibly easy in fact. They have someone like a spouse or sibling make the bet and poof. There you have it.

 

The spread was not covered here. 

 

And yes, it happened in MLB and NBA. And we know because the people involved were caught. Which is my point. 

 

This "naive" argument is where these discussions always land. Just because a person doesn't buy in to unprovable conspiracy theories doesn't make them naive. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Wait a minute...

 

The Colts got away with two non call penalties at the end of the Ravens game. Your response was basically 'we caught a break.' 

 

Now the Colts get the short end of a call in the Browns game, and your conclusion is the NFL is rigged.

 

??? 

 

How come this week's unfavorable situation isn't karma for the favorable situation a few weeks ago?

I recall us getting a break on 1 noncall not 2. The non PI call in OT. yesterday was different because the 2 calls against us gave the Browns the game. It gave them not 1 1st and goal but a 2nd one, we had almost no chance at that point. The call we got in Baltimore gave us the ball around the 45 yard line. You and I will have to agree to disagree on this issue. 

 

Also like I said earlier, a REF can still gamble and take a team without giving up points at all. The payday would not be as big if one won but if you bet a lot of money on said team, the payday would still be good.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Im a lover of Big Cats, so this is PERFECT for me!    Many thanks!     

Get well. I have had that sciatic pain before so I know what you are talking about. It usually happens to me 2 or 3 times a year. Then it goes away in a week or so. It is in my lower back. My pain is so bad that I can't even sit up without it feeling like someone is jabbing a knife in me. I couldn't sleep either. Nothing helps is what is bad. I've tried everything from heat to ice to even doing a couple of shots of whiskey. Nothing works. Hopefully your pain subsides and you get better. Try and rest is all I can say. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 hours ago, GoPats said:

 

This. ^^^

 

I know my opinion is discounted since I'm a Patriots fan, LOL... but most conspiracy theories (in general, not just sports) are implausible to me because of the sheer number of people it would require to keep said conspiracy clandestine. I've spent most of my professional life managing large groups of people and I can tell you for sure that human nature goes against the concept. 

 

No disrespect intended to you, @2006Coltsbestever. We've always gotten along just fine, but I simply can't see this the way you do. 

 

 

 

No disrespect taken. I created this thread because I wanted to hear many opinions on this and make sure I wasn't going bonkers after yesterday's screw job.

[bluebombers87]

5 hours ago, Superman said:

 

The spread was not covered here. 

 

And yes, it happened in MLB and NBA. And we know because the people involved were caught. Which is my point. 

 

This "naive" argument is where these discussions always land. Just because a person doesn't buy in to unprovable conspiracy theories doesn't make them naive. 

The spread piece was an example and you know it.

 

Thank you for admitting this type of scenario is indeed possible.

 

Its naive to think that just because a crime hasn’t been discovered it isn’t happening. Plenty of crime out in the world that hasn’t been discovered. Doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

 

Ultimately you are saying this type of situation cannot happen. I’m saying it is entirely possible. I’m not saying I think this is what happened with the colts this past Sunday, just that it is possible.

[bluebombers87]

6 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Did you miss the post that introduced karma to the discussion? 

Irrelevant. You asked why this wasn’t karma. I’m asking why you think karma even exists as a possibility when the idea of humans being corrupt is impossible to you.

[shakedownstreet]

 

 

 

[bluebombers87]

[NFLfan]

1 hour ago, bluebombers87 said:

Irrelevant. You asked why this wasn’t karma. I’m asking why you think karma even exists as a possibility when the idea of humans being corrupt is impossible to you.

 

That does not make sense. Someone mentioned karma and Superman asked why the karma argument does not also apply to the Colts. That is a legitimate question.

[bluebombers87]

2 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

That does not make sense. Someone mentioned karma and Superman asked why the karma argument does not also apply to the Colts.

Karma does not exist by all available evidence. So why entertain that even in question?

 

Regardless I don’t want this to derail the points I made afterwards so I’ll concede and apologize.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Great discussion here. I almost think a better question for a Poll would have been, do you think the REFS cost us the game by making 2 terrible calls at the end? There might still be a few that say NO, but if 50 people voted I am sure the answer to that would be an overwhelming YES. I am guessing out of 50 people, at least 40 would vote YES. That is 80% of the vote. I have read over a thousand comments on Youtube and Yahoo and many think the REFS were a joke in the Colts game. Several comments from posters even read as REFS 39 Colts 38. 

 

So far the poll I created in here is 50/50 to whether or not the REFS alter certain games to help teams out. That says a lot by itself. 50% is high when it comes to a subject like this. 4 posters even voted they think games are rigged. I did not but 4 believe so. 

[Two_pound]

I saw something interesting yesterday. In the steeler-ram game Sunday the steelers went for it on 4th and 1 from around midfield with 2:12 to go in the game. Pickett did a qb sneak and did not get back to the line of scrimmage as replay clearly showed but the refs somehow gave them the first down and the rams were out of timeouts and could not challenge the spot of the ball. GAME OVER! The refs came up big in that game also.