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15 minutes ago, ShuteAt168 said:

45-52-1. It’s not hard to analyze. 


Someone is counting 2017. 
 

When we clearly tanked. 
 

And Ballard didn’t have his head coach of choice, or his coordinators of choice, or his starting quarterback, or his front office put together yet. 
 

For some fans here, it’s much harder to analyze than it is for others. 
 

Look what happened one year later in 2018 when Ballard had his team in place: 10-6 and the playoffs.  Why do you think Irsay extended Ballard as he did.  He doesn’t count 2017 because it was a deliberate tank job. 
 

Think what you want…..  

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9 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:


Someone is counting 2017. 
 

When we clearly tanked. 
 

And Ballard didn’t have his head coach of choice, or his coordinators of choice, or his starting quarterback, or his front office put together yet. 
 

For some fans here, it’s much harder to analyze than it is for others. 
 

Look what happened one year later in 2018 when Ballard had his team in place: 10-6 and the playoffs.  Why do you think Irsay extended Ballard as he did.  He doesn’t count 2017 because it was a deliberate tank job. 
 

Think what you want…..  

Yes, you have outlined for the board many times why you are the king at Colts analysis. 
 

I count 2017 because he was GM that season. I’m embarrassed for you that you think you can cherry pick records. We probably shouldn’t count the record during Saturday’s time as HC either, since perhaps CB wasn’t on board. You should dig in and figure “Chris Ballard’s Real Record As General Manager When Every Circumstance Fell In His Favor.” Then elucidate the rest of the hoi polloi on the board. 
 

One playoff win in six years isn’t enough for me as a fan. It is for you. I have higher expectations. 

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12 minutes ago, ShuteAt168 said:

Yes, you have outlined for the board many times why you are the king at Colts analysis. 
 

I count 2017 because he was GM that season. I’m embarrassed for you that you think you can cherry pick records. We probably shouldn’t count the record during Saturday’s time as HC either, since perhaps CB wasn’t on board. You should dig in and figure “Chris Ballard’s Real Record As General Manager When Every Circumstance Fell In His Favor.” Then elucidate the rest of the hoi polloi on the board. 
 

One playoff win in six years isn’t enough for me as a fan. It is for you. I have higher expectations. 


Embarrassed….   for me?    That’s sweet. 
 

Then you should also be embarrassed for Irsay.  Because it’s his view that I take my view from.  
 

Look….   Technically, officially, it’s on Ballard’s record.  There’s no denying that. 
I’m talking about understanding the big picture 30,000 foot view.  Trying to make sense of a complicated picture. 
 

People who don’t like Ballard — for whatever reason — reject my view, the Irsay view.   That’s fine.  People who like Ballard and understand what Irsay is trying to do, accept it.   That’s the way the world spins.  
 

Someday, you may get your wish.  Ballard will be gone.  But it looks like you’ve got him for perhaps another year or two.   
 

Good luck. 
 

PS — by the way, in my nearly 11 years here you might be the first poster to ever use elucidate and hoi polloi.   And you get bonus points for using them in the same sentence!    :thmup:      :worthy:

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4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:


Embarrassed….   for me?    That’s sweet. 
 

Then you should also be embarrassed for Irsay.  Because it’s his view that I take my view from.  
 

Look….   Technically, officially, it’s on Ballard’s record.  There’s no denying that. 
I’m talking about understanding the big picture 30,000 foot view.  Trying to make sense of a complicated picture. 
 

People who don’t like Ballard — for whatever reason — reject my view, the Irsay view.   That’s fine.  People who like Ballard and understand what Irsay is trying to do, accept it.   That’s the way the world spins.  
 

Someday, you may get your wish.  Ballard will be gone.  But it looks like you’ve got him for perhaps another year or two.   
 

Good luck. 

So now it is on Ballard’s record. After my first post, it wasn’t. Thanks for your analysis. 

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18 minutes ago, ShuteAt168 said:

Yes, you have outlined for the board many times why you are the king at Colts analysis. 
 

I count 2017 because he was GM that season. I’m embarrassed for you that you think you can cherry pick records. We probably shouldn’t count the record during Saturday’s time as HC either, since perhaps CB wasn’t on board. You should dig in and figure “Chris Ballard’s Real Record As General Manager When Every Circumstance Fell In His Favor.” Then elucidate the rest of the hoi polloi on the board. 
 

One playoff win in six years isn’t enough for me as a fan. It is for you. I have higher expectations. 

Hard to have more than 1 playoff win without stability at qb. If he had Andrew luck the entire time and only had 1 playoff win then you could criticise him

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15 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Hard to have more than 1 playoff win without stability at qb. If he had Andrew luck the entire time and only had 1 playoff win then you could criticise him

I want to say first I agree with your point but I think you hit on the key question with Ballard.  How much do you let the Andrew Luck situation impact judgement of him?  He can’t have a pass forever because of it but at the same time you can’t say it doesn’t factor in.  Fans seems to like to hard line on either side of that issue and I don’t think you can do that.  At the same time I can’t say what the right answer is in terms of how you let it impact your judgement of him.

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24 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

I want to say first I agree with your point but I think you hit on the key question with Ballard.  How much do you let the Andrew Luck situation impact judgement of him?  He can’t have a pass forever because of it but at the same time you can’t say it doesn’t factor in.  Fans seems to like to hard line on either side of that issue and I don’t think you can do that.  At the same time I can’t say what the right answer is in terms of how you let it impact your judgement of him.

Foe example the Eagles. Traded their Franchise  qb to us and reloaded and look at them now.

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1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Let's come at if from a different angle . How many truly eliet to very good premium positions players has Ballard drafted since being the GM? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the right question, with “premium” being the key word. 

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13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:


Someone is counting 2017. 
 

When we clearly tanked. 
 

And Ballard didn’t have his head coach of choice, or his coordinators of choice, or his starting quarterback, or his front office put together yet. 
 

For some fans here, it’s much harder to analyze than it is for others. 
 

Look what happened one year later in 2018 when Ballard had his team in place: 10-6 and the playoffs.  Why do you think Irsay extended Ballard as he did.  He doesn’t count 2017 because it was a deliberate tank job. 
 

Think what you want…..  

If you think you know why Jim Irsay does things then you have powers of perception that are not explainable by contemporary science.

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12 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Let's come at if from a different angle . How many truly eliet to very good premium positions players has Ballard drafted since being the GM? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Possibly Raimann, if he keeps developing like he has. Other than that? Zip...

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13 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

None of those play premium positions though.

Oline improved with Nelson.

Defense improved with Leonard and turnovers dipped A LOT this season without him.

Taylor was our offense last season and the only reason we did anything. Him being injured obviously hurt the offense.

 

That's premium to me and anyone else who isn't nitpicking anything.

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7 minutes ago, Indyfan4life said:

Oline improved with Nelson.

Defense improved with Leonard and turnovers dipped A LOT this season without him.

Taylor was our offense last season and the only reason we did anything. Him being injured obviously hurt the offense.

 

That's premium to me and anyone else who isn't nitpicking anything.

Oline improved with Nelson, Smith and Glow. Oline improvement wasn't down to one player. Come to think of it, we had a rough start on the Oline that year and it wasn't until Gug made some adjustments they finally clicked.

 

No doubt Leonard had a lot of turnovers last year. But I'd like to see him stay healthy and reproduce last years performance it before I crown him.

 

JT was our offense last year, and this year when our Oline couldn't block for him, he was nowhere and then got injured.

 

Doesn't matter what you think is premium because NFL GMs disagree.

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6 minutes ago, Indyfan4life said:

Oline improved with Nelson.

Defense improved with Leonard and turnovers dipped A LOT this season without him.

Taylor was our offense last season and the only reason we did anything. Him being injured obviously hurt the offense.

 

That's premium to me and anyone else who isn't nitpicking anything.

If we had Larry Allen at OG, Ray Lewis at MLB, and Barry Sanders at RB, you will stay have people moaning because it isn't QB, LT, WR, Edge Rusher homer simpson GIF

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15 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

Oline improved with Nelson, Smith and Glow. Oline improvement wasn't down to one player. Come to think of it, we had a rough start on the Oline that year and it wasn't until Gug made some adjustments they finally clicked.

 

No doubt Leonard had a lot of turnovers last year. But I'd like to see him stay healthy and reproduce last years performance it before I crown him.

 

JT was our offense last year, and this year when our Oline couldn't block for him, he was nowhere and then got injured.

 

Doesn't matter what you think is premium because NFL GMs disagree.

Which is why I said premium is subjective in another thread.

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Bottomline really, the biggest part of the Ballard era is we haven't had a good QB with the exception of Luck in 2018 and Rivers in 2020. Look what we did with those 2, Luck went 10-6 and won a playoff game in 2018, Rivers went 11-5 and made the playoffs in 2020. It is to bad Luck retired, also it is too bad we got Matt Ryan 2 years too late because with the line we had in 2020, I think we make the playoffs with him. It is on the GM to find that good QB but easier said than and done. Put a good - great QB with Taylor, Nelson, and Leonard who creates turnovers, we would be in the playoffs every year.

 

The huge mistake we made was trading for Wentz, I hated it at the time and that just started the circus. Wentz is washed up and isn't even 30. He had it all here with Taylor playing like Barry Sanders, Leonard creating 10 turnovers for major help as well. We should have thought about drafting a QB long ago as in 2021. I was wrong about Matt Ryan thinking he had something left, father time just caught him because he will be a Hall of Famer regardless. Ryan also didn't have Taylor for a lot of the year or Leonard all year. I didn't like last years QB class either.

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5 minutes ago, Indyfan4life said:

Which is why I said premium is subjective in another thread.

It isn't though. That's just a convenient way of sneaking around facts.

 

https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1513874444518838278?s=20&t=M9H51pL7N2fGFsGy2Ruw_g

This is a link to the highest paid positions in the NFL, aka what GMs value.

 

Now, before you start with the "bUt OlInE iS tOp 3!"

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/offensive-line/

 

In the top 14 highest paid Olinemen there is one guard - Nelson. The rest? All tackles.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

It isn't though. That's just a convenient way of sneaking around facts.

 

https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1513874444518838278?s=20&t=M9H51pL7N2fGFsGy2Ruw_g

This is a link to the highest paid positions in the NFL, aka what GMs value.

 

Now, before you start with the "bUt OlInE iS tOp 3!"

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/offensive-line/

 

In the top 14 highest paid Olinemen there is one guard - Nelson. The rest? All tackles.

 

 

Nothing against you but I have probably posted this 100 times in here. There are outliers like Nelson and Leonard who are just great, what about Ray Lewis? No way in hell is anyone going to tell me they wouldn't want him on their team or isn't a top 20 player of all-time. He wasn't an Edge Rusher. 

 

I would take Nelson over almost any Lineman in the league period. 2 things happened this year with him, he was playing injured and he really had no help, our LT and C play sucked. Kelly has really regressed and the LT's we had in 2022 were bad! Pryor was a turnstile.

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1 minute ago, Solid84 said:

It isn't though. That's just a convenient way of sneaking around facts.

 

https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1513874444518838278?s=20&t=M9H51pL7N2fGFsGy2Ruw_g

This is a link to the highest paid positions in the NFL, aka what GMs value.

 

Now, before you start with the "bUt OlInE iS tOp 3!"

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/offensive-line/

 

In the top 14 highest paid Olinemen there is one guard - Nelson. The rest? All tackles.

 

 

I wAs NeVeR gOnNa SaY "bUt ThE oLiNe!"

 

I just said it's subjective, because not every single GM is going to have the exact same position in mind as premium, especially when it comes to a specific spot needed. Some of you put way too much stock into a single word.

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12 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Nothing against you but I have probably posted this 100 times in here. There are outliers like Nelson and Leonard who are just great, what about Ray Lewis? No way in hell is anyone going to tell me they wouldn't want him on their team or isn't a top 20 player of all-time. He wasn't an Edge Rusher. 

 

I would take Nelson over almost any Lineman in the league period. 2 things happened this year with him, he was playing injured and he really had no help, our LT and C play sucked. Kelly has really regressed and the LT's we had in 2022 were bad! Pryor was a turnstile.

And you keep bringing up outliers to deflect...

 

Sure there are outliers, but we don't have any of them, so what's the point in dragging that into the discussion? An outlier is Aaron Donald who's pretty consistently (not this year though) played waaay above his positional value.

 

I would take Trent Williams, LT 49'ers (or any other top 5-10 LTs) over Nelson 10 times out of 10.

I would take ANY top 5-10 shotdown corner over Leonard 10 times out of 10.

I would take ANY top 5-10 WRs over JT 10 times out of 10.

I would take ANY top 5-10 DE over Buckner 10 times out of 10.

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5 minutes ago, Indyfan4life said:

I wAs NeVeR gOnNa SaY "bUt ThE oLiNe!"

 

I just said it's subjective, because not every single GM is going to have the exact same position in mind as premium, especially when it comes to a specific spot needed. Some of you put way too much stock into a single word.

That's fair.

 

Any GM will have those positions listed in about the same way in the top 5. Until a team wins by paying what others would consider non-premium starters it's not going to change. It just isn't.

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2 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

Am you keep bringing up outliers to deflect...

 

Sure there are outliers, but we don't have any of them, so what's the point in dragging that into the discussion? An outlier is Aaron Donald who's pretty consistently (not this year though) played waaay above his positional value.

 

I would take Trent Williams, LT 49'ers (or any other top 5-10 LTs) over Nelson 10 times out of 10.

I would take ANY top 5-10 shotdown corner over Leonard 10 times out of 10.

I would take ANY top 5-10 WRs over JT 10 times out of 10.

I would take ANY top 5-10 DE over Buckner 10 times out of 10.

So you don't think Nelson and Leonard are outliers? Wow. I guess there is just no debating this then. They have 1 bad year and the sky is falling. Really Nelson wasn't even bad, just had an off year for reasons I have explained and Leonard was injured all year. Those guys have made so many All-Pro selections (not just pro bowl but All-Pro selections = big difference) I have lost count.

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14 hours ago, Stephen said:

Hard to have more than 1 playoff win without stability at qb. If he had Andrew luck the entire time and only had 1 playoff win then you could criticise him

I wish people would stop treating Ballard like he's some innocent bystander to his own decision. Part of the reason we don't have stability at QB is his own decisions. It's HIS JOB to secure stability and high performance at QB. 6 years into his tenure and 4 years after Luck retired, we still have no stability at QB. I get it that he didn't get dealt the best possible hand when Luck retired. I bet it sucked for him as much as if not more than it sucked for us as fans. But there are a ton of teams that didn't even have the luxury of having an Andrew Luck to begin with and have found their QB since. 

 

The Chargers didn't have their QB when Luck retired. The Jags didn't have their QB when Luck retired. The Dolphins didn't have their QB when Luck retired. The Bengals didn't have their QB when Luck retired. Philly didn't have their QB when Luck retired, the Giants didn't have their QB when Luck retired, the Bucs didn't have their QB when Luck retired, the 49ers didn't have their QB when Luck retired. That's more than half of the playoff teams in the league. 

 

Please guys stop giving more and more excuses to Ballard. It's HIS JOB.

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2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

So you don't think Nelson and Leonard are outliers? Wow. I guess there is just no debating this then. They have 1 bad year and the sky is falling. Really Nelson wasn't even bad, just had an off year for reasons I have explained and Leonard was injured all year. Those guys have made so many All-Pro selections (not just pro bowl but All-Pro selections = big difference) I have lost count.

Listen, I've loved Nelson and Leonard from the start, but they don't outperform their position and they never have.  If I could replace Nelson and Leonard with a good LG and a good MLB I would take a top LT and CB ANY day of the week.

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4 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

Listen, I've loved Nelson and Leonard from the start, but they don't outperform their position and they never have.  If I could replace Nelson and Leonard with a good LG and a good MLB I would take a top LT and CB ANY day of the week.

I would just take good at most positions with a top 10 coach and top 5 QB.

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Just now, Solid84 said:

Sure, the QB is by far the most important, but a team isn't going all the way without great talent a key positions.

Of course you need - I would say good talent at LT and Edge Rusher for example but without a top 5-7 QB, winning the big one would still be tough. No team has ever had great talent at every position, closest thing to that was the 1978 Steelers + 1979 Steelers and the 1992-1995 Cowboys. Not even the Pats were loaded at every position but they had the best coach and best QB for 2 decades. Had it not been for the Pats, we would've won at least 3 SB's with Peyton and Dungy. Right QB and right Coach is what I look at first, then if I can just get good talent in certain area's, it will work out. Look at the Jags, right QB and Coach, Trevor with Urban won 2 games. Before Burrow, Cincy was bad, with Burrow they are very good.

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9 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Of course you need - I would say good talent at LT and Edge Rusher for example but without a top 5-7 QB, winning the big one would still be tough. No team has ever had great talent at every position, closest thing to that was the 1978 Steelers + 1979 Steelers and the 1992-1995 Cowboys. Not even the Pats were loaded at every position but they had the best coach and best QB for 2 decades. Had it not been for the Pats, we would've won at least 3 SB's with Peyton and Dungy. Right QB and right Coach is what I look at first, then if I can just get good talent in certain area's, it will work out. Look at the Jags, right QB and Coach, Trevor with Urban won 2 games. Before Burrow, Cincy was bad, with Burrow they are very good.

The wonderful thing about all these Ballard debates is the Time to Judge him has arrived. 

 

He's pushed the can of drafting a QB down the hill this long and now it looks like he has to draft a QB finally. 

 

If he gets the evaluation right, and does what's required during draft day to get their desired QB from the current #4 position, he can redeem himself. 

 

If he doesn't get it right, it's only fair to say that he has put himself in the bottom of the barrel and there are no excuses left. 

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2 hours ago, Nickster said:

Lg, ilb, and rb.  Perhaps the easiest three positions to fill.  Give me one of any of Edge, Wr, or QBs that is elite and I will trade all three of those positions.


Why do you think you’re saying something unique?   Who wouldn’t rather have an elite edge, WR or QB?    Nobody.   Ballard isn’t choosing an elite guard,  linebacker, and running back instead of the positions everybody wants. 
 

But there isn’t an elite QB in every draft.  And typically when there is, there is one, maybe two. 
 

And there typically aren’t more than one or two elite WRs in any given draft.   There are lots of good to very good ones,  but few are elite. 
 

Same with edge.  One, maybe two, but sometimes zero.   Those positions are what everyone wants and needs and there aren’t enough to fill the demand.  

 

 

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