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Did Irsay set Reich up to fail to fire him


Restinpeacesweetchloe
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Irsay forcing reich to play Sam was media speculation until proven otherwise. Jim had no need or reason to "set frank up". He the owner. He can do whatever he wants. It's not like he had to get the fan base on board with getting rid of frank. Most wanted him gone already

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59 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

We benched Ryan at 3-3-1.  Not going to fire him if they win.

 

Correction: Ryan got hurt at 3-3-1. He still has not missed a game in which he was healthy and available.

 

And he was playing really poorly at the time, as was the rest of the offense. Reich didn't get fired over the way two games went.

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5 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Correction: Ryan got hurt at 3-3-1. He still has not missed a game in which he was healthy and available.

 

And he was playing really poorly at the time, as was the rest of the offense. Reich didn't get fired over the way two games went.

its asking a lot for frank to be given a QB who is clearly past his prime and in decline mixed with a bad offensive line .   i think its unfair to frank he had to work in a bad situation .   trying to change the offense again for his 5th 'QB in 5 years and its a guy who is in decline mixed with no left tackle or right guard and taylor getting injured for 3 games and banged up for another two games he played in .    with ryan and taylor both playing frank was 3-2-1 and was one chip shot kick away from 4-2   .   i just dont think he is as bad as people think here. he had his flaws and some of his shotgun runs annoyed me along with being overly aggressive at the wrong times but no coach is perfect .

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2 hours ago, Zoltan said:

I don’t think he forced that move to fire Frank. I just think he wanted change and became to controlling over coaching decisions, with Saturday he has more trust. 

i just hope it doesnt backfire because we always lose to the steelers and the cowboys look amazing .   losing those two and putting jeff at 1-3 as a coach will bring massive backlash on irsay .    i thought jeff turned things around last week but this week has been a punch to the gut  . the offense looks exactly the same with jeff against the eagles .  

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2 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

I am seeing a lot of this speculation. Because Jeff Saturday was allowed to make Ryan the QB after Irsay forced them to play Sam. It is kind of fishy. Did he want them to lose so he could fire Reich?

He sure did. Irsay tied Frank's hands and threw him overboard to sink or swim.

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14 minutes ago, Nesjan3 said:

Yah I dont know that sounds like silly speculation to me. Ryan was hurt, so thats a good reason to put in Sam. The announcement by Frank that Sam would be the QB all year was what was confusing.

its all very confusing. 

 

and it will remain that way because we don't know how much influence irsay really had over what decisions were being made. its so muddy we don't know who's choice was what. 

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Honestly I think Frank got himself fired. Two games with Saturday, I’m seeing guys play harder and hold more accountability. Obviously that could change, but I think that’s a quality Frank severely lacked. If Saturday keeps it up he might be the guy to coach this team next year and beyond, but regardless we need to fix this OL and get a better QB

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20 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

its all very confusing. 

 

and it will remain that way because we don't know how much influence irsay really had over what decisions were being made. its so muddy we don't know who's choice was what. 

Why is this confusing? Sirrianis post game statements make it clear as day. Irsay wanted to save$ thus made Frank bench Ryan and announce Sam ( a guy that was hardly getting any reps in practice) was QB1 the rest of the season. After the debacle in NE, Irsay wanted to save face by firing his scapegoat (Reich) and hiring a fan favorite in JS. JS made the call to go back to MR. Irsay is as impulsive as his father was.

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1 minute ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

Why is this confusing? Sirrianis post game statements make it clear as day. Irsay wanted to save$ thus made Frank bench Ryan and announce Sam ( a guy that was hardly getting any reps in practice) was QB1 the rest of the season. After the debacle in NE, Irsay wanted to save face by firing his scapegoat (Reich) and hiring a fan favorite in JS. JS made the call to go back to MR. Irsay is as impulsive as his father was.

 

im not saying the argument doesn't make sense, it's just hard to be sure. 

 

You can also create a narrative that Frank knew the writting was on the wall and tried to get a spark from the young guy. 

 

 

edit: i totally agree that part of hiring Saturday was PR. But I also believe he can lead men, and that part is important for a coach too. 

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7 minutes ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

Why is this confusing? Sirrianis post game statements make it clear as day. Irsay wanted to save$ thus made Frank bench Ryan and announce Sam ( a guy that was hardly getting any reps in practice) was QB1 the rest of the season. After the debacle in NE, Irsay wanted to save face by firing his scapegoat (Reich) and hiring a fan favorite in JS. JS made the call to go back to MR. Irsay is as impulsive as his father was.

Irsay wanted to save money? How you figure that? Frank is getting paid his contract and Irsay is paying Jeff. Now he will have to pay another head coach next season.  

Your speculation doesn't hold water. 

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11 hours ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

You do know how a salary cap works right?

I know exactly how the salary cap works. That is for players and has nothing to do with Irsay. Irsay's money and teams money are two separate things. The coaching money is not figured into the players salary cap.

So maybe it's you that is confused on Irsay’s money?

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7 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I agree with a lot of this, especially the QB carousel, which was not Reich's fault. If things were his way, we'd have slowed down the QB changes this season for sure. I also think Reich shared a lot of the blame, given that he's an offensive minded HC and the offense basically fell apart this season. There's a lot of nuance in there and we could debate it all day, but I don't think Reich's hands are completely clean in all this.

 

But more importantly, in my opinion, I just don't think Reich was going to be the right guy. There are a lot of elements that go into being a successful HC, and over 4+ years I think Reich showed some deficiencies that I don't think coaches ever overcome. He had a tenuous grasp on game/clock management, his play calling had peaks and valleys, but overall was mostly average and lacking rhythm. And we couldn't rely on the team performing at a high level at the beginning of games, or seasons, which speaks to strategic preparation. I don't think great coaches take five years to learn this stuff, and I don't think football people change dramatically at 60 years old, so I think we were going to hit a wall with Reich sooner or later. Long story short, I don't think he was good enough.

 

Totally agree with this and would add that the team came out "flat" far too often. The last 2 games of 2021 really exemplified his failure to motivate the team. 

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27 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I know exactly how the salary cap works. That is for players and has nothing to do with Irsay. Irsay's money and teams money are two separate things. The coaching money is not figured into the players salary cap.

So maybe it's you that is confused on Irsay’s money?

 

53 minutes ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

Why is this confusing? Sirrianis post game statements make it clear as day. Irsay wanted to save$ thus made Frank bench Ryan and announce Sam ( a guy that was hardly getting any reps in practice) was QB1 the rest of the season. After the debacle in NE, Irsay wanted to save face by firing his scapegoat (Reich) and hiring a fan favorite in JS. JS made the call to go back to MR. Irsay is as impulsive as his father was.

 

Jesus tapdancing christ....^THIS is the reason that civil debate is a thing of the past.  

 

Person A: states an opinion

person B: thinks they understand person A's opinion but they really don't.  So they blast person A on his own assumption of what Person A meant rather than asking some questions first to clarify.  

 

both of you (and many others, I've been guilty of this as well) need to calm the * down, stop thinking your individual craps don't stink and learn to listen and ask questions before obliterating another person's opinion over a misunderstanding.

 

cdga said Irsay wanted to save money meaning (I'm assuming, cdga please correct me if I'm wrong) that Irsay didn't want to pay a clause of Ryan's contract that protects him due to injury at the start of the 2023 league year.  If Ryan can't pass a physical, he gets something like an additional $17 mil and the way he was getting beaten up and taking sacks, it was looking more and more plausible that this could happen.  the media has been speculating this since Frank announced the benching of Ryan, particularly due to Frank's comment that sam would be the starter "for the rest of the year."

 

Personally, that made sense to me when the media started speculating it, but now that Saturday has gone back to Ryan it makes no sense at all.  I don't buy cdga's assertion that irsay wanted to "save face".  I don't believe it was Irsay that dictated the benching of Ryan.  If Irsay was trying to avoid paying that injury clause, that wouldn't have changed with a coaching change.  And to those who have said that Saturday strongarmed Irsay into letting him put ryan back as the starter?  Poppycock.  That's ridiculous.  Irsay wouldn't have given Jeff the interim job if they weren't on the same page, particularly when it comes to the starting QB.

 

I now believe it was Frank that worked to convince Ballard and Irsay to let him start Sam as a way to try to jump start the offense.  Maybe Ballard and Irsay were planning on firing Frank that day, and he convinced them to give him one last shot with Sam.  That didn't work, so Frank got the ax.  

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3 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

I am seeing a lot of this speculation. Because Jeff Saturday was allowed to make Ryan the QB after Irsay forced them to play Sam. It is kind of fishy. Did he want them to lose so he could fire Reich?

There’s been zero proof that Irsay made the Matt decision….

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6 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

 

Jesus tapdancing christ....^THIS is the reason that civil debate is a thing of the past.  

 

Person A: states an opinion

person B: thinks they understand person A's opinion but they really don't.  So they blast person A on his own assumption of what Person A meant rather than asking some questions first to clarify.  

 

both of you (and many others, I've been guilty of this as well) need to calm the * down, stop thinking your individual craps don't stink and learn to listen and ask questions before obliterating another person's opinion over a misunderstanding.

 

 Where is your civil debate?  After rereading the comments there was a miscommunication. You take it upon yourself to insult by throwing the individual crap don't stink nonsense into it. You partake in exactly what you whine about. 

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55 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I agree with a lot of this, especially the QB carousel, which was not Reich's fault. If things were his way, we'd have slowed down the QB changes this season for sure. I also think Reich shared a lot of the blame, given that he's an offensive minded HC and the offense basically fell apart this season. There's a lot of nuance in there and we could debate it all day, but I don't think Reich's hands are completely clean in all this.

 

But more importantly, in my opinion, I just don't think Reich was going to be the right guy. There are a lot of elements that go into being a successful HC, and over 4+ years I think Reich showed some deficiencies that I don't think coaches ever overcome. He had a tenuous grasp on game/clock management, his play calling had peaks and valleys, but overall was mostly average and lacking rhythm. And we couldn't rely on the team performing at a high level at the beginning of games, or seasons, which speaks to strategic preparation. I don't think great coaches take five years to learn this stuff, and I don't think football people change dramatically at 60 years old, so I think we were going to hit a wall with Reich sooner or later. Long story short, I don't think he was good enough.

i agree his playcalling got really stale  but i honestly wonder if his highs and lows were a result of him or the poor talent .    i just dont think he had good QB play the last two years .   it was the perfect mix of bad QB play and massive holes at left tackle and right guard along with the other linemen regressing .  

 

the thing that has me questioning the firing is how good the offense looked with luck. he got luck's turnovers to a minimum and the offense was good under rivers too .     i just overall feel player talent is what counts any elite coach with a bad roster is going to lose a lot of games .   i think what coaches control is whether a good roster is a fringe playoff team or contender as we saw with dungy vs mora .  

 

The offense is gonna struggle no matter the coach until the colts get a franchise QB and franchise left tackle . that is the only way i see out of this mess .  i just fear if saturday fails the colts will have a hard time getting a upgrade over frank until they have a QB .

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After thinking about the title of the thread I don't think Irsay set Frank up to fire him.  Irsay is the owner. He doesn't need to set anyone up to fire them.  He just fires them. After the collapse last season and how this season has went Irsay had enough and pulled the trigger. 

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2 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Isn’t that why you got Foles?

 

  The answer to this is still and always will be NO!

Foles was 3rd string per Frank. You know Frank, the guy that championed Brissett, Wentz... hahaha!  Frank was emotionally the walking dead the last few weeks. I have no doubt Frank was relieved to be let go.

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1 hour ago, coming on strong said:

i agree his playcalling got really stale  but i honestly wonder if his highs and lows were a result of him or the poor talent .    i just dont think he had good QB play the last two years .   it was the perfect mix of bad QB play and massive holes at left tackle and right guard along with the other linemen regressing .  

 

the thing that has me questioning the firing is how good the offense looked with luck. he got luck's turnovers to a minimum and the offense was good under rivers too .     i just overall feel player talent is what counts any elite coach with a bad roster is going to lose a lot of games .   i think what coaches control is whether a good roster is a fringe playoff team or contender as we saw with dungy vs mora .  

 

The offense is gonna struggle no matter the coach until the colts get a franchise QB and franchise left tackle . that is the only way i see out of this mess .  i just fear if saturday fails the colts will have a hard time getting a upgrade over frank until they have a QB .

Oh so he just needs a HOF caliber QB to have a good performing O & look good as a play caller!

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Honestly I think Frank got himself fired by trying to put too much on himself and not delegate others to do their jobs and be a COACH.  He tried to be a FRIEND, OC, COACH, PLAYCALLER, ect.  I like Frank and supported him all the way up UNTIL the goalline debacle when he didnt run a QB Sneak with Sam. 

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3 hours ago, coming on strong said:

i agree his playcalling got really stale  but i honestly wonder if his highs and lows were a result of him or the poor talent .    i just dont think he had good QB play the last two years .   it was the perfect mix of bad QB play and massive holes at left tackle and right guard along with the other linemen regressing .  

 

the thing that has me questioning the firing is how good the offense looked with luck. he got luck's turnovers to a minimum and the offense was good under rivers too .     i just overall feel player talent is what counts any elite coach with a bad roster is going to lose a lot of games .   i think what coaches control is whether a good roster is a fringe playoff team or contender as we saw with dungy vs mora .  

 

The offense is gonna struggle no matter the coach until the colts get a franchise QB and franchise left tackle . that is the only way i see out of this mess .  i just fear if saturday fails the colts will have a hard time getting a upgrade over frank until they have a QB .

 

Luck was four plus years ago though, and the OL wound up being really, really good. Can't coast on that forever. The Eagles fired Doug Pederson three years after his Super Bowl win. 

 

And Wentz was Reich's guy, who didn't have a great showing with the Colts, and is now gone.

 

One thing that I can't prove, but have a strong suspicion of, is that Reich is an 'I can win with whoever you give me' kind of guy. I don't know if he's going to bang on the table for a better LT, or a playmaker at WR. I don't know if he's going to tell the GM 'we need to get some help on defense.' And I'm sure that's a good thing for the guys in the building, but it's also probably going to contribute to a complacent attitude in the locker room and in the front office.

 

Again, I'm not laying the whole thing at Reich's feet, but he wasn't just a fall guy who was treated unfairly. 

 

I'm not worried -- yet -- about the Colts ability to attract good people. But I do think Sirianni's comments yesterday indicate that there are some football people in and around the league who aren't happy with the way Reich was handled, and probably some who have questions about the Ryan benching, or the Saturday hire, etc. None of that is surprising, but maybe that becomes a factor when we're trying to interview people after the season.

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2 minutes ago, Superman said:

One thing that I can't prove, but have a strong suspicion of, is that Reich is an 'I can win with whoever you give me' kind of guy. I don't know if he's going to bang on the table for a better LT, or a playmaker at WR. I don't know if he's going to tell the GM 'we need to get some help on defense.' And I'm sure that's a good thing for the guys in the building, but it's also probably going to contribute to a complacent attitude in the locker room and in the front office.

 As to this per what even Jeff is saying about this team and we will see more into this if Jeff is coach next year, is If a coach sees that they have the right guys  in practice but then doesn't translate to the field on game day its not talent its execution. It then becomes coaching, or the game being to big for that player that they cannot repeat things when they matter. There are more practices in a year then there is games. 

 

We will see. 

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4 hours ago, dw49 said:

 

Totally agree with this and would add that the team came out "flat" far too often. The last 2 games of 2021 really exemplified his failure to motivate the team. 

 

As bad as the end of last season was, I was even more bothered by the beginning of this season. Everyone on the team looked last season's failure directly in the face, and said they were ready to show what they were made of. And they couldn't have started any worse.

 

Ballard and Reich always talk about toughness, finishing, and not flinching. All of that shoed to be empty talk at the beginning of this season.

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Reich deserved the firing.  But that said yes the logic lines up in such a way that it looks like he meddled with the QB starting decisions then went back on it after hiring Saturday.  Probably because of the fuss around the hiring. 

 

But either way it's a bad look.  At least where I'm sitting it looks like we have a meddling and impatient owner who won't be capable of pulling off a top hire.  Because for me this year is as good as gone, what we need to be doing is finding out if the kid can play (sample size is required with consistent starts for that) and if we lose no big deal it means we pick higher and have a better shot at a QB.

 

And don't get me wrong here...  I do appreciate this team playing a very hot Eagles team down to the wire.  But they're not going to sustain enough to do anything meaningful.  And if Saturday does win enough to where Irsay gets comfortable with him (plus puts up with his fingers in the pie) then it means the 2023 season will probably be lost as well because he'll end up fired.

 

Hate to sound so negative but that's my take.  Would love to be wrong on a lot of it too.

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To the OP.. 

Doubt it. 

 

But would not be surprised if Frank was on thin ice since Game 2... 

Irsay could perhaps considered firing Frank then.... 

There is a reason why Vegas had Frank on the hot seat (with top 4 odds) to start the season. 

 

And I believe Jeff. He said job offer came during the NE game, no conversions prior.

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