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3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

@NFLfan

 

Sorry, mistyped on Culley. It was Lovie. 

 

FYI - NBC article on McCown and the Flores situation.

 

"The real reason ex-Eagles QB McCown didn't land Texans job"

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/eagles/nfl-rumors-brian-flores-lawsuit-kept-josh-mccown-texans-report

 

"Former Eagles quarterback and NFL journeyman Josh McCown was nearly named the Texans' next head coach, but Houston backed out at the last minute after Brian Flores' lawsuit over the league's racist hiring practices rocked the football world.

That's the story the Houston Chronicle's John McClain is reporting Tuesday morning. McClain has been covering football in Houston for decades and is considered one of the most plugged-in beat reports in the league.

It's a fascinating development for McCown, who just 765 days ago was still playing quarterback in the NFL but seemed fast-tracked towards a head coaching opportunity in Houston based on his reputation around the league as a surefire future head coach."

 

That says rumors.

 

Anyway, I think the Texans would have hired a good coach in Josh McCown. I wish the Vikes had hired him in some capacity. He will be a head coach one day and a really good one. He knows how to work with people well. The players said as a player, he was a coach on the field. You can see that. He was a backup who worked with all the players. I'm a huge fan of Josh McCown.

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42 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

I understand too. I just don't buy that any profession is "sacred". I don't recall complaining or be outraged with Deion Sander jumping the line in college. I doubt many would complain about Peyton taking a HC or GM job. And I mentioned, Josh McCown was the favorite for the Texans HC job, but was reportedly was not hired due to the Flores/racial optics. 

 

Someone will be upset about anything... lol.... And media will always look for clicks.. 

Tell me all the experienced coaches who were itching to get a chance to go to Jackson State?

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9 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

You are not seeing it from the standpoint of those who have paid their dues.

 

Yes, being a leader is great and Saturday is that. But a lot more goes into coaching than being a leader. I'm sure you know what I mean. Has he hired a clock management person?

 

Sure there will be bumps going forward but Irsay hiring outside the box does not deserve the scrutiny he has gotten. 

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41 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

 

Sure there will be bumps going forward but Irsay hiring outside the box does not deserve the scrutiny he has gotten. 

 

Whenever an outside-the-box move is made, there will be talk (scrutiny, etc.). When my favorite baseball team, the NY Mets, hired an agent to be general manager several years ago, it got a lot of criticism. I did not get upset with those criticizing it. 

 

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23 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

That says rumors.

 

Anyway, I think the Texans would have hired a good coach in Josh McCown. I wish the Vikes had hired him in some capacity. He will be a head coach one day and a really good one. He knows how to work with people well. The players said as a player, he was a coach on the field. You can see that. He was a backup who worked with all the players. I'm a huge fan of Josh McCown.

 

Rumors? I don't know. The guy that reported the story was long time vet Texans reporter. Like decades...  Likely has the best "sources" within the organization. He was the better opponent reporters I can recall. I'd bet on McClain's sources any day over La Canfora's sources. 

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19 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

Tell me all the experienced coaches who were itching to get a chance to go to Jackson State?

 

Very good question. Folks are grasping at straws to justify this move when doing so only makes the move look worse.

 

The best example of a similar move may have been Josh McCown almost getting hired. I actually do not believe many would have have complained as much about McCown. I think as a player, he was like a coach. The coaches raved about him. I wanted my team to hire him. 

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23 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

Tell me all the experienced coaches who were itching to get a chance to go to Jackson State?

 

Kidding me? There are 100+ HBCU colleges, with plenty assistants and coordinators, all looking for promotions. 

 

So lets say 15 or more coaches at each college. That's 1500 guys looking for opportunities. More than in the NFL lol.. 

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19 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Kidding me? There are 100+ HBCU colleges, with plenty assistants and coordinators, all looking for promotions. 

 

So lets say 15 or more coaches at each college. That's 1500 guys looking for opportunities. More than in the NFL lol.. 

 

Lolol. Hiring a college head coach is not the same as hiring a head coach for an NFL team. Colleges hire coaches not only to coach but to recruit players and to represent the school at events. Jackson State is a small school with minimal resources. Hiring a high-profile head coach with a prominent name can attract players that otherwise would sign letters of intent elsewhere. It was a brilliant move for a small school like Jackson State to hire Deion Sanders. So, no,, the two hires are not the same. Trying to equate the two misrepresents what the critics are conveying. 

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12 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

Lolol. Hiring a college head coach is not the same as hiring a head coach for an NFL team. Colleges hire coaches not only to coach but to recruit players and to represent the school at events. Jackson State is a small school with minimal resources. Hiring a high-profile head coach with a prominent name can attract players that otherwise would sign letters of intent elsewhere. It was a brilliant move for a small school like Jackson State to hire Deion Sanders. So, no,, the two hires are not the same. Trying to equate the two misrepresents what the critics are conveying. 

 

You're convenient. 

 

So it's not OK to skip the line in the NFL, but it's OK to skip a bunch of experienced guys in college that paid dues .. because a "big name"... 

 

You should ponder that. 

 

And you're OK with McCown... 

 

This is getting more funny. 

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7 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Like AwesomeAustin said, I think you'll find it to be very tame in comparison to how people are presenting it here. He used a couple of strong words, but if you're expecting a sweaty-toothed mad man, you're going to be disappointed.

I disagree. I absolutely think he is frothing at the mouth... even if he tries to present it in a calm manner. He really really hates that his old boys club buddies for once didn't get the job. Implying Saturday doesn't have the committment for the job - what is that?The first minute of that clip is exactly that. How is that warranted? "Speaking on behalf of the coaching profession" - how about you speak for yourself, Bill? Illusions of grandeur and self-importance much? 

 

"What about the assistants on the staff right now? The guys that have been there in training camp... the guys have been there ealry in the morning and late at night.. guys that have gone through the first six weeks in that building" What about them? You mean the guys that coached this team to the horrific state it was in before Frank's firing? They have presided over an underperforming team that lacked any life and spark. Why should any of them get a promotion for that? The two coaches who have had HC experience were horrible at their previous stops as HC and were fired for the horrible job they did? Why should they have precedence over ANYBODY? Experienced or not, I would rather see someone who has a shot at being good get the opportunity over someone who has already proved he is bad at that job. This is the old boys club in full effect here - they protect and promote eachother no matter what. At their last stops as HC in the league John Fox and Gus Bradley had combined record of 29/112. But no, those are the people that actually need ANOTHER shot... why? Because they have the experience of losing 75% of their games in the past? Who else? Scott Milanovich? The guy that refused to take on playcalling duties? But he would have been so much more up for it if he had gotten the HC gig? Come on... 

 

"Disgrace to the coaching profession" "Regardless what happens what happened in Indianapolis is a travesty"? How is that warranted and not highfalutin hyperbole and nonsense? Let me spell it out - what Bill Cowher is doing is gatekeeping. He would rather see proven losers get 2nd and 3d and 4th chances over a new guy get a shot. This is how the old boys club works - it doesn't matter what you do and how bad you were before - you keep getting hired again and again and again... Which is OK... he has the right think it and say it, but lets be clear about what is actually happening. 

 

Just spare me the melodramatic hyperbole, Bill. And again... keep in mind we are talking about INTERIM HC job. Nobody has given Jeff Saturday long-term contract. None of this warranted such vitriolic response and especially Jeff Saturday didn't deserve any of it. 

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3 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

You're convenient. 

 

So it's not OK to skip the line in the NFL, but it's OK to skip a bunch of experienced guys in college that paid dues .. because a "big name"... 

 

You should ponder that. 

 

And you're OK with McCown... 

 

This is getting more funny. 

What’s getting funny is those of you who keep trying to prove your point by bringing up unrelated instances. First it was Cower skipping over qualified college grads, now Deon skipped over qualified HBCU assistants.

 

But you answered your own questions when you said there were hundreds of HBCU assistants he supposedly jumped over. How many of those assistants were big enough names that they could have helped with recruiting? College is different from the NFL in many ways. You need to be able to recruit. Deon brings in recruits including getting a 5 star recruit from FSU to flip. Not only that but HBCUs are historically underfunded as well. Deon pumped a lot of his personal money into that program (remodeling the team locker room, equipment, etc…). Not something just any coach can do.

 

A few of you in here are desperately grasping at straws here. It’s clear not many people know what types of experience is needed for every job and what the qualifications are. These arguments have no basis because they are based on perceived needs and anecdotal evidence.

 

If you wanted to make a better argument you’d talk about Mike Mayock (an NFL network analyst who barely played in the league) jumping over qualified GM candidates who actually had FO experience. You’d be answered with the fact that Mike being fired aside, many people in the media scrutinized the hire the same way people are now with Jeff, which is the whole point. This type of reaction isn’t unique to the Colts.  

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58 minutes ago, stitches said:

I disagree. I absolutely think he is frothing at the mouth... even if he tries to present it in a calm manner. He really really hates that his old boys club buddies for once didn't get the job. Implying Saturday doesn't have the committment for the job - what is that?The first minute of that clip is exactly that. How is that warranted? "Speaking on behalf of the coaching profession" - how about you speak for yourself, Bill? Illusions of grandeur and self-importance much? 

 

"What about the assistants on the staff right now? The guys that have been there in training camp... the guys have been there ealry in the morning and late at night.. guys that have gone through the first six weeks in that building" What about them? You mean the guys that coached this team to the horrific state it was in before Frank's firing? They have presided over an underperforming team that lacked any life and spark. Why should any of them get a promotion for that? The two coaches who have had HC experience were horrible at their previous stops as HC and were fired for the horrible job they did? Why should they have precedence over ANYBODY? Experienced or not, I would rather see someone who has a shot at being good get the opportunity over someone who has already proved he is bad at that job. This is the old boys club in full effect here - they protect and promote eachother no matter what. At their last stops as HC in the league John Fox and Gus Bradley had combined record of 29/112. But no, those are the people that actually need ANOTHER shot... why? Because they have the experience of losing 75% of their games in the past? Who else? Scott Milanovich? The guy that refused to take on playcalling duties? But he would have been so much more up for it if he had gotten the HC gig? Come on... 

 

"Disgrace to the coaching profession" "Regardless what happens what happened in Indianapolis is a travesty"? How is that warranted and not highfalutin hyperbole and nonsense? Let me spell it out - what Bill Cowher is doing is gatekeeping. He would rather see proven losers get 2nd and 3d and 4th chances over a new guy get a shot. This is how the old boys club works - it doesn't matter what you do and how bad you were before - you keep getting hired again and again and again... Which is OK... he has the right think it and say it, but lets be clear about what is actually happening. 

 

Just spare me the melodramatic hyperbole, Bill. And again... keep in mind we are talking about INTERIM HC job. Nobody has given Jeff Saturday long-term contract. None of this warranted such vitriolic response and especially Jeff Saturday didn't deserve any of it. 

How some don't see this is mind-boggling.

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59 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

How some don't see this is mind-boggling.

It’s how it’s presented.  When you start it off with a lie/exaggeration people shut off and quit listening. It’s a form of manipulation that does not go over well bc it breaks the trust barrier immediately and people won’t listen/believe anything else you say. 
 

I do agree with the old boys club point.  This system is prevalent in all fields. It also wouldn’t surprise me if there is more to this story with Cower and Saturday we don’t know about. Maybe Cower doesn’t like Irsay said Reich was safe then fired him within a couple week period. Maybe he thinks the GM and owner put a coach in an impossible situation then scapegoated him to hire their buddy?  I have no clue. So many possibilities this can be spun I just think all sides are right and wrong. 

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6 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Tell me all the experienced coaches who were itching to get a chance to go to Jackson State?

I don't know who the assistant coaches were on the team but I'm sure Cowher thinks they should have been promoted since they have "earned" it.

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2 hours ago, stitches said:

I disagree. I absolutely think he is frothing at the mouth... even if he tries to present it in a calm manner. He really really hates that his old boys club buddies for once didn't get the job. Implying Saturday doesn't have the committment for the job - what is that?The first minute of that clip is exactly that. How is that warranted? "Speaking on behalf of the coaching profession" - how about you speak for yourself, Bill? Illusions of grandeur and self-importance much? 

 

"What about the assistants on the staff right now? The guys that have been there in training camp... the guys have been there ealry in the morning and late at night.. guys that have gone through the first six weeks in that building" What about them? You mean the guys that coached this team to the horrific state it was in before Frank's firing? They have presided over an underperforming team that lacked any life and spark. Why should any of them get a promotion for that? The two coaches who have had HC experience were horrible at their previous stops as HC and were fired for the horrible job they did? Why should they have precedence over ANYBODY? Experienced or not, I would rather see someone who has a shot at being good get the opportunity over someone who has already proved he is bad at that job. This is the old boys club in full effect here - they protect and promote eachother no matter what. At their last stops as HC in the league John Fox and Gus Bradley had combined record of 29/112. But no, those are the people that actually need ANOTHER shot... why? Because they have the experience of losing 75% of their games in the past? Who else? Scott Milanovich? The guy that refused to take on playcalling duties? But he would have been so much more up for it if he had gotten the HC gig? Come on... 

 

"Disgrace to the coaching profession" "Regardless what happens what happened in Indianapolis is a travesty"? How is that warranted and not highfalutin hyperbole and nonsense? Let me spell it out - what Bill Cowher is doing is gatekeeping. He would rather see proven losers get 2nd and 3d and 4th chances over a new guy get a shot. This is how the old boys club works - it doesn't matter what you do and how bad you were before - you keep getting hired again and again and again... Which is OK... he has the right think it and say it, but lets be clear about what is actually happening. 

 

Just spare me the melodramatic hyperbole, Bill. And again... keep in mind we are talking about INTERIM HC job. Nobody has given Jeff Saturday long-term contract. None of this warranted such vitriolic response and especially Jeff Saturday didn't deserve any of it. 

I would like this post a million times if possible.  All truth.  Bill wanted bad head coaches rehired instead of a fresh mind who played at all pro levels for 14 years and then did consulting work for the Colts.  

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1 hour ago, AwesomeAustin said:

It’s how it’s presented.  When you start it off with a lie/exaggeration people shut off and quit listening. It’s a form of manipulation that does not go over well bc it breaks the trust barrier immediately and people won’t listen/believe anything else you say. 
 

I do agree with the old boys club point.  This system is prevalent in all fields. It also wouldn’t surprise me if there is more to this story with Cower and Saturday we don’t know about. Maybe Cower doesn’t like Irsay said Reich was safe then fired him within a couple week period. Maybe he thinks the GM and owner put a coach in an impossible situation then scapegoated him to hire their buddy?  I have no clue. So many possibilities this can be spun I just think all sides are right and wrong. 


yep.  This sums it up for me.

 

I don’t care about Thomas or Cowher but they have defensible points.

 

if either is a hypocrite it doesn’t change for me they have defensible .

 

defensible does NoT necessarily mean correct.

 

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7 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Kidding me? There are 100+ HBCU colleges, with plenty assistants and coordinators, all looking for promotions. 

 

So lets say 15 or more coaches at each college. That's 1500 guys looking for opportunities. More than in the NFL lol.. 

You do realize that Sanders had experience coaching high school right? If coaching in college is the minimum for coaching in the NFL, than it stands To reason that coaching high school ball is enough experience to get a shot in college at a small non-power 5 HBCU. College and NFL do not have the same rules.

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1 hour ago, Defjamz26 said:

You do realize that Sanders had experience coaching high school right? If coaching in college is the minimum for coaching in the NFL, than it stands To reason that coaching high school ball is enough experience to get a shot in college at a small non-power 5 HBCU. College and NFL do not have the same rules.

 

He will never admit to being wrong. How anyone does not see the difference in the two situations is mind-boggling. 

 

I finally heard what Cowher said. I agree with most of what he had to say, but adding the parts about a "disgrace" and a "travesty" put it over the top. It actually reminded me of some fans here who make a comment and add a personal shot to it like "you're dumb", "you don't know football", "What planet are you on?", etc. One can make a comment without adding words that take it too far. I think Cowher's message would have been fine without adding "disgrace" and saying it was a "travesty". 

 

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16 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

He will never admit to being wrong. How anyone does not see the difference in the two situations is mind-boggling. 

 

I finally heard what Cowher said. I agree with most of what he had to say, but adding the parts about a "disgrace" and a "travesty" put it over the top. It actually reminded me of some fans here who make a comment and add a personal shot to it like "you're dumb", "you don't know football", "you don't know scheme", etc. One can make a comment without adding words that take it too far. I think Cowher's message would have been fine without adding "disgrace" and saying it was a "travesty". 

I mostly agree.  What , I think , made him look like a * was when he said Gus Bradley or John Fox should have been promoted.  Gus is 14-48 as an NFL head coach and Fox is a 67 year old coach with a .500 record.  That solidifies Cowher is a good ol' boy member.  He would prefer teams hire failed head coaches over someone with more potential as an interim coach.  Funny that he didn't make a stick about Vrabel having only 3 years as an assistant coach.

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55 minutes ago, Myles said:

I mostly agree.  What , I think , made him look like a * was when he said Gus Bradley or John Fox should have been promoted.  Gus is 14-48 as an NFL head coach and Fox is a 67 year old coach with a .500 record.  That solidifies Cowher is a good ol' boy member.  He would prefer teams hire failed head coaches over someone with more potential as an interim coach.  Funny that he didn't make a stick about Vrabel having only 3 years as an assistant coach.

 

Fox has led teams to the Super Bowl. He has coached teams that have won Super Bowls, I believe. Yes, Bradley has a bad record. For an interim position, elevating someone from the staff would have made sense to me. 

 

Hiring someone from outside sends a loud message, even if that message was not the intent. It signals that the owner is not happy with what is going on. It seemed to light a fire under everyone. I did not watch the game to determine how Saturday coached but the result was positive.

 

Saturday beat McDaniels. I'm sure folks are pleased with that. 

 

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55 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

Fox has led teams to the Super Bowl. He has coached teams that have won Super Bowls, I believe. Yes, Bradley has a bad record. For an interim position, elevating someone from the staff would have made sense to me. 

 

Hiring someone from outside sends a loud message, even if that message was not the intent. It signals that the owner is not happy with what is going on. It seemed to light a fire under everyone. I did not watch the game to determine how Saturday coached but the result was positive.

 

Saturday beat McDaniels. I'm sure folks are pleased with that. 

 

That is an understatement.  Reich got fired, the team has been performing horribly and Cowherd wanted them to promote someone from Reichs "tree".   

 

Fox never won a Superbowl, despite making it to the game.  

Most remember John from his Carolina days when he only made the playoffs 3 of the 9 years he coached there.   I would prefer Saturday as the interim head coach.  Letting Gus or John have it would mean that we may lose them in the offseason.  They will have to interview others for the spot.  If Gus or John didn't get it, they would probably quit.

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6 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

If you wanted to make a better argument you’d talk about Mike Mayock (an NFL network analyst who barely played in the league) jumping over qualified GM candidates who actually had FO experience. You’d be answered with the fact that Mike being fired aside, many people in the media scrutinized the hire the same way people are now with Jeff, which is the whole point. This type of reaction isn’t unique to the Colts.  

Yeah, Mayock was the situation that immediately came to mind for me when I read the complaints about Saturday being hired, and then the complaints about the complaints.   The conversations didn't seem to hit the mark.  Lots of flurry and little substance, IMO.

 

The Mayock comparison may not have been brought up out of convenience.

 

Having said that, I support the Saturday hiring as a good hire and as a means to let Frank go...which would not have been done if it wasn't for Saturday's availability (Irsay's words).   I support making an upgrade when the time is right to do it. 

 

With that mindset that Irsay indicated he had, he would not have promoted one of Frank's assistants over Frank...that would make no sense.  It makes more sense that the guy who is a better candidate than your current HC is a guy who comes from another area.

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15 minutes ago, Myles said:

Reich got fired, the team has been performing horribly and Cowherd wanted them to promote someone from Reichs "tree".   

Lots of assumptions made by folks.  If anybody listened to Irsay...and you can call it owner-speak if you choose...he said that the "only" reason he let Frank go is because Saturday was available...a guy they have been trying to hire for a while.  If you believe that on its surface, then Frank was not "fired" for performance (which is what Cowher and others are assuming), he was let go in order to make room for an upgrade.

 

So in that line of thinking, Frank would not have been let go in order for one of his assistants to take over....why would one of Frank's subordinates be viewed as a upgrade worthy of letting the HC go?.....the upgrade has to come from another place.   And that's why Jeff made sense to Irsay.  The team was struggling so now was the time to make the switch.  A window was open.  If the team rallied behind Frank, the window would have closed. (until the end of the season)

 

Cowher, and probably just about everybody else, is looking at it in the typical way where the HC is "fired" because he's terrible...so you just normally promote one of the Assistants to ride out the season. 

 

 Believe Irsay or not, but that's not how he presented the transition....Frank was not fired due to performance...he was let go because Jeff was available.  Its a different situation than what the critics are assuming....believe it or not.

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3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Lots of assumptions made by folks.  If anybody listened to Irsay...and you can call it owner-speak if you choose...he said that the "only" reason he let Frank go is because Saturday was available...a guy they have been trying to hire for a while.  If you believe that on its surface, then Frank was not "fired" for performance (which is what Cowher and others are assuming), he was let go in order to make room for an upgrade.

 

So in that line of thinking, Frank would not have been let go in order for one of his assistants to take over....why would one of Frank's subordinates be viewed as a upgrade worthy of letting the HC go?.....the upgrade has to come from another place.   And that's why Jeff made sense to Irsay.

 

Cowher is looking at it in the typical way where the HC is "fired" because he's terrible...so you just normally promote one of the Assistants to ride out the season. 

 

 Believe Irsay or not, but that's not how he presented the transition....Frank was not fired due to performance...he was let go because Jeff was available.  Its a different situation than how the critics are assuming....believe it or not.

While I agree with most of this, Frank was let go due to performance.  Had the team been 6-3, he would still have a job. Heck, if the team was 5-4, he would still have a job.   Jeff made the decision easier I assume but Frank's performance started the need.  

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18 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Lots of assumptions made by folks.  If anybody listened to Irsay...and you can call it owner-speak if you choose...he said that the "only" reason he let Frank go is because Saturday was available...a guy they have been trying to hire for a while.  If you believe that on its surface, then Frank was not "fired" for performance (which is what Cowher and others are assuming), he was let go in order to make room for an upgrade.

 

So in that line of thinking, Frank would not have been let go in order for one of his assistants to take over....why would one of Frank's subordinates be viewed as a upgrade worthy of letting the HC go?.....the upgrade has to come from another place.   And that's why Jeff made sense to Irsay.  The team was struggling so now was the time to make the switch.  A window was open.  If the team rallied behind Frank, the window would have closed. (until the end of the season)

 

Cowher, and probably just about everybody else, is looking at it in the typical way where the HC is "fired" because he's terrible...so you just normally promote one of the Assistants to ride out the season. 

 

 Believe Irsay or not, but that's not how he presented the transition....Frank was not fired due to performance...he was let go because Jeff was available.  Its a different situation than what the critics are assuming....believe it or not.

Irsay wanted to hire someone he trusts to give him the full picture of what's going on inside the team. IMO there is distinct lack of trust that Irsay is showing in anyone connected to the last couple of years of this team's construction and operation(and to some degree it is very understandable to lack trust in both Ballard and Reich). The last huge 4 decisions at GM/HC level very likely were made all by Irsay(moving on from Wentz, benching Ryan, firing Brady and Reich, hiring Saturday)... you do not do that if you trust the people in the building. That BTW is why I think Ballard is a dead man walking too. 

 

My personal gripe with Irsay is - if you don't trust them, let them go and put people you trust in there to do the job. Don't meddle and give them an excuse later to say "the owner didn't let me do what I wanted". If you have to put your finger on those types of decisions on the scale, you just need to fire the people that should be making those decision. 

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14 minutes ago, Myles said:

While I agree with most of this, Frank was let go due to performance.  Had the team been 6-3, he would still have a job. Heck, if the team was 5-4, he would still have a job.   Jeff made the decision easier I assume but Frank's performance started the need.  

That's fine.  But then that feeds into the criticism of Irsay for not then just promoting an Assistant to ride out the season.  Irsay is saying that he let Frank go BECAUSE Jeff finally became available.  And, he said that they had a phone conversation that same night where Jeff agreed to take the job.....as if the decision to let Frank go was based on Jeff's agreeing to take it.   

 

Firing for performance would have been irrelevant to Jeff deciding to take the job.  Frank would have been fired anyway.  That's what Cowher and the critics are thinking, that the firing comes first and then you look for somebody after that.  

 

No.  Jeff's agreeing to take the job was the condition for Irsay to fire Frank.  If Jeff was not available, Frank would still be the HC.  Again...if you believe what Irsay said and the timeline and discussions that Saturday described, this flows.

 

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If Peyton Manning would have been hired, I doubt anyone in the media, or ex players, or ex coaches would have the anger that Cowher and Thomas had. They probably would have loved that move, because it was Jeff, they jumped all over it. Peyton has no experience in coaching. What about John Lynch? He had no experience of any type of coaching or management and played Safety in the league - he wasn't a QB, not 1 person was bothered by him getting hired as GM for one the greatest franchises ever. Lynch has turned out as one of the GM's in football.

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Just now, DougDew said:

That's fine.  But then that feeds into the criticism of Irsay for not then just promoting an Assistant to ride out the season.  Irsay is saying that he let Frank go BECAUSE Jeff finally became available.  And, he said that they had a phone conversation where Jeff agreed to take the job.....as if the decision to let Frank go was based on Jeff's agreeing to take it.   

 

Firing for performance would have been irrelevant to Jeff deciding to take the job.  That Frank would have been fired anyway.  That's what Cowher and the critics are thinking, that the firing comes first and then you look for somebody after that.  

 

No.  Jeff's agreeing to take the job was the condition for Irsay to fire Frank.  If Jeff was not available, Frank would still be the HC.  Again...if you believe what Irsay said and the timeline and discussions that Saturday described, this flows.

 

Where are you seeing that reported?

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2 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

He will never admit to being wrong. How anyone does not see the difference in the two situations is mind-boggling. 

 

I finally heard what Cowher said. I agree with most of what he had to say, but adding the parts about a "disgrace" and a "travesty" put it over the top. It actually reminded me of some fans here who make a comment and add a personal shot to it like "you're dumb", "you don't know football", "What planet are you on?", etc. One can make a comment without adding words that take it too far. I think Cowher's message would have been fine without adding "disgrace" and saying it was a "travesty". 

 

That's a good way to put it.  Dude had a point.  Is it a good point?  Eye of the beholder, but it's not some outlandish, baseless claim. 

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4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

If Peyton Manning would have been hired, I doubt anyone in the media, or ex players, or ex coaches would have the anger that Cowher and Thomas had. They probably would have loved that move, because it was Jeff, they jumped all over it. Peyton has no experience in coaching. What about John Lynch? He had no experience of any type of coaching or management and played Safety in the league - he wasn't a QB, not 1 person was bothered by him getting hired as GM for one the greatest franchises ever. Lynch has turned out as one of the GM's in football.

To follow this up it just wasn't just Cowher and Thomas, there were like at least 20 people in the media piling on our organization and the Jeff move. I heard it all week on sports talk radio.

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4 minutes ago, stitches said:

Irsay wanted to hire someone he trusts to give him the full picture of what's going on inside the team. IMO there is distinct lack of trust that Irsay is showing in anyone connected to the last couple of years of this team's construction and operation(and to some degree it is very understandable to lack trust in both Ballard and Reich). The last huge 4 decisions at GM/HC level very likely were made all by Irsay(moving on from Wentz, benching Ryan, firing Brady and Reich, hiring Saturday)... you do not do that if you trust the people in the building. That BTW is why I think Ballard is a dead man walking too. 

 

My personal gripe with Irsay is - if you don't trust them, let them go and put people you trust in there to do the job. Don't meddle and give them an excuse later to say "the owner didn't let me do what I wanted". If you have to put your finger on those types of decisions on the scale, you just need to fire the people that should be making those decision. 

Yep.  That's why Irsay needed Jeff's availability in order to fire Frank.   A spy/evaluator.   Who else could do that for Irsay?  Gus? Evaluation of the organization from the field level is not the typical reason why HCs are fired during a season, where that typical reason is why an assistant is naturally just grabbed to ride out the season.  It wasn't strictly a Frank performance thingy, but it obviously played a part.

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3 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Where are you seeing that reported?

Its an inference from Irsay's words.  The vibe I got was that he wanted to know from Jeff if he would be willing to take the IHC job.  Then he fired Frank and made the move to hire Jeff because he knew Jeff would say yes.  The whole thing happened in a matter of hours.

 

So if Jeff said that ...no....he's still not available, then Irsay doesn't fire Frank (that night).  

 

This is the scenario that supports the notion that Irsay did not even consider one of the assistants.  Because the firing was only going to happen under one condition, Jeff's availability

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Just now, DougDew said:

Its an inference from Irsay's words.  The vibe I got was that he wanted to know from Jeff if he would be willing to take the IHC job.  Then he fired Frank and made the move to hire Jeff because he knew Jeff would say yes.  The whole thing happened in a matter of hours.

 

So if Jeff said that ...no....he's still not available, then Irsay doesn't fire Frank (that night).  

 

This is the scenario that supports the notion that Irsay did not even consider one of the assistants.  Because the firing was only going to happen under one condition, Jeff's availability

He talked to Jeff about the oline before he fired Frank.   He offered the job to Jeff after he fired Frank.  I think you're making a big leap that Frank wouldn't have been fired if Jeff wasn't interested 

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I think it would help if Cower defined what his version of the criteria are in order to be a head coach:

 

 5 years playing, 5 years as an assistant, 2 years as coordinator = head coach

 15 years playing, 5 years as an assistant, 0 years as coordinator = head coach

 

Just typing the above feels dumb - because it is. This isn't the medical industry that requires a set number of residency hours, plus a specific degree, plus, plus, plus. This is closer to managing a Walmart than anything else. Does the manager have to work in every dept. before being promoted to store manager? nope. Does the manager need the most tenure? nope. Does the manager need to know how the store operates and how to manage people? Yup.

 

Cower is making football WAY more than it really is and it hurts his pride that someone he deems as inferior could do the job he used to.

 

*This is not a joke. Go look at what it takes to manage a Walmart store and then come here and tell me an NFL coaching job is infinitely harder. 

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9 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

He talked to Jeff about the oline before he fired Frank.   He offered the job to Jeff after he fired Frank.  I think you're making a big leap that Frank wouldn't have been fired if Jeff wasn't interested 

Yeah, its hard to tell exactly what happened during those conversations.   But I think Irsay specifically said that the transition was made because Jeff was available.  

 

Wasn't the timeline something like they had a convo about 9pm, and then another confirmation about 1am...Jeff said he had to talk it over with his wife?  And then Jeff said he learned the next morning that Frank was let go...something about the thing officially happening that Tuesday morning..   So when exactly Irsay informed Frank he was fired is not clear...before he called Jeff the first time, before the second time...or that Tuesday Morning?

 

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Just now, DougDew said:

Yeah, its hard to tell exactly what happened during those conversations.   But I think Irsay specifically said that the transition was made because Jeff was available.  

 

Wasn't the timeline something like they had a convo about 9pm, and then another confirmation about 1pm...Jeff had to talk it over with his wife?  And then Jeff said he learned the next morning that Frank was let go...something about the thing officially happening that Tuesday morning..   So when exactly Irsay informed Frank he was fired is not clear...before he called Jeff the first time, before the second time...or that Tuesday Morning?

He called Jeff during the game on Sunday

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7 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

He called Jeff during the game on Sunday

Yes, but that was about the game.  They had another conversation at 1am.  Remember...Jeff said that Irsay keeps different hours than he does.  He also said later at some point that he needed some time to talk it over with his wife.   

 

I got the vibe from the presser that Jeff did talked it over with his wife that Monday night.  He got the official offer Tuesday morning after Irsay fired Frank....legally that was probably the chain of events...but Irsay knew by that time that Jeff would accept the job.  Yes, its my opinion, but its based on the timeline they both spoke about and Irsay's comment about Jeff being available.

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6 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yep.  That's why Irsay needed Jeff's availability in order to fire Frank.   A spy/evaluator.   Who else could do that for Irsay?  Gus? Evaluation of the organization from the field level is not the typical reason why HCs are fired during a season, where that typical reason is why an assistant is naturally just grabbed to ride out the season.  It wasn't strictly a Frank performance thingy, but it obviously played a part.

We are reading this very differently. IMO it was Frank's performance. If Frank's performance was better he wouldn't be on the block. IMO Frank's fate was already sealed - it was either going to be - Frank gets fired now and Irsay gets his guy in to tell him what's going on inside or Frank gets fired in the off-season without the benefit of Irsay getting trusted info in the meantime. The Saturday availability was a plus and accelerator, not the main reason. 

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