Our Defense is Likely Way Overrated on this Board

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, chad72 said:

Yesterday showed us how much valuable Kwity was to our D, IMO.

 

Similarly, No Autry, Titans pass rush took a hit vs Bengals and yeah, he’s that valuable to them.

Really we'd see more stunts

[Moosejawcolt]

Well when u can't close out games going on 5 years. Yea, I would say u r over rated. 

[VikingsFanInChennai]

It's a complementary game, one can't completely judge the defense without looking at how the offense has done over the years.

 

Look around the league on good offenses, Colts need to get multidimensional, not just relying on good running game to expect defense to come with stop every time. Colts are built in an old style way, that doesn't always bring the victory in today's NFL. You're not gonna win games in playoffs this way beating the likes of KC, BUF, PHI, DAL, MIN, CIN, BAL, MIA in a stretch in must-win games. Titans have similar problem, even with a tremendous coaching staff, they need better passing game to compete in playoffs. 

 

This team needs a better, all-around attacking offensive scheme and serious infusion of talent along the trenches and skill positions on both sides. If Colts get a good coaching hire and better scheme on offense and could keep key players on defense and build around them, and also find a franchise QB, this defense can consistently beat great teams. 

 

As you can see, it's a process over next few years and you need a management (GM) with better vision and solid plan to begin with. 

[lollygagger8]

If the offense wouldn't leave them stranded on the field for 3/4 of the game, they would be top 10. 

[gspdx]

At this point we are giving up 20.3 points per game.  And that is with an offense that can't stay on the field and has given up a ton of turnovers.

 

That isn't too bad.  I would still like to see a better pass rush and get off the field on 3rd down more often.

[gspdx]

4 minutes ago, gspdx said:

At this point we are giving up 20.3 points per game.  And that is with an offense that can't stay on the field and has given up a ton of turnovers.

 

That isn't too bad.  I would still like to see a better pass rush and get off the field on 3rd down more often.

 

Based on points per game we are 11th in the league right now.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Our D is great until it counts. Matt Ryan gave us the lead Monday night and we were up 10 vs Philly, then in the 4th Qtr of each game our D stunk up the joint. The Philly game annoyed more because of all the 3rd and longs and 4th downs we gave up. Anytime a team is up 10 going to the 4th Qtr, they should never lose. Philly had only 1 game in their history of their franchise when trailing by 10 or more in the 4th Qtr where they won until that crapshow we pulled. It wasn't even like we turned it over giving them gifts either. They had to drive 80+ yard to beat us and kept getting numerous 3rd and longs because guys like Kenny Moore can't cover a turtle and we can't create turnovers without Leonard.

 

Creating Turnovers are huge, it keeps you in games and wins you games. Leonard had 10 last year.

[gspdx]

17 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Our D is great until it counts. Matt Ryan gave us the lead Monday night and we were up 10 vs Philly, then in the 4th Qtr of each game our D stunk up the joint. The Philly game annoyed more because of all the 3rd and longs and 4th downs we gave up. Anytime a team is up 10 going to the 4th Qtr, they should never lose. Philly had only 1 game in their history of their franchise when trailing by 10 or more in the 4th Qtr where they won until that crapshow we pulled. It wasn't even like we turned it over giving them gifts either. They had to drive 80+ yard to beat us and kept getting numerous 3rd and longs because guys like Kenny Moore can't cover a turtle and we can't create turnovers without Leonard.

 

Creating Turnovers are huge, it keeps you in games and wins you games. Leonard had 10 last year.

 

Yes - the defense didn't hold up in the 4th quarter.  But in their defense, they held the Eagles to 17 points.  The Eagles average 27.5 points per game and we are the only team to not allow 20 or more points.

 

If the offense had another 3 points we would still be below the average points allowed by the Eagles - 19.6 - and would have had enough to win with this defensive performance.  I just have a hard time blaming the defense for this.

[Solid84]

I just don’t think a lot of opposing teams feel a lot of urgency against us until they are trailing into the 4th Q. They know our offense isn’t going to run away with it, and when they dial it up in the 4th our defense can’t keep up. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

5 hours ago, Solid84 said:

I just don’t think a lot of opposing teams feel a lot of urgency against us until they are trailing into the 4th Q. They know our offense isn’t going to run away with it, and when they dial it up in the 4th our defense can’t keep up. 

There could be some truth to that. That very well might be why they have given up so few points. But we really can’t know for sure because it can’t be proven. We did do a great job against KC and eagles and those aren’t two teams who are just going to hold back until fourth. I don’t think cowboys are going to hold back either.

[DougDew]

5 hours ago, Solid84 said:

I just don’t think a lot of opposing teams feel a lot of urgency against us until they are trailing into the 4th Q. They know our offense isn’t going to run away with it, and when they dial it up in the 4th our defense can’t keep up. 

Bingo.  Our stats are misleading.  The 3-7 Steelers had a good night.   The key for the opponent is to not make stupid mistakes that gives us a possession or good field position.  They don't need to light up the scoreboard.

 

[DougDew]

12 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

We did do a great job against KC and eagles and those aren’t two teams who are just going to hold back until fourth. I don’t think cowboys are going to hold back either.

Our pass rushers are not great sack getters.  KC and Philly have running Qbs that take advantage of the DEs opening up escape lanes when they try that looping sack.   Ours aren't good enough for that, but they can set a deep edge pretty well, then Mahomes and Hurts are contained and have to throw more from the pocket.  Hurts got loose a few times though. 

 

Most of those running QBs get their yards when the DEs create a running lane by trying too hard for the sack.  We have more success against those teams than most teams do, IMO.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

19 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Our pass rushers are not great sack getters.  KC and Philly have running Qbs that take advantage of the DEs opening up escape lanes when they try that looping sack.   Ours aren't good enough for that, but they can set a deep edge pretty well, then Mahomes and Hurts are contained and have to throw more from the pocket.  Hurts got loose a few times though. 

 

Most of those running QBs get their yards when the DEs create a running lane by trying too hard for the sack.  We have more success against those teams than most teams do, IMO.

Looks like Paye might be back Sunday night. We have been very short handed with Lewis and Paye both out.

[lilolemoi]

Remember we’re gonna lose most of the rest of the season. I’m surprised so many voted for 11-15 with al the talk of tanking around here.

[Nickster]

When I said overrated I meant I think some here think we are a top D.  That isn’t the way I see it.  I think we are adequate but not that great.  Low top half.  I think we will see some bigger points totals v us the next month.  

 

We still lack a real good pass rusher.  We just don’t have a guy making plays in crunch time. YN isn’t a good DE.  He’s got a few sacks but he’s a liability overall IMO and it’s crystal clear to me why no body keeps this guy despite decent sack totals.  People will say he’s got x sacks etc, but If you watched Monday he was terrible getting washed out over and over.  He got 2 sacks but the first he was stood up and stonewalled by the LT and The QB basically fell into his lap as he stepped up right into him to where I believe YN was headed back toward the LOS when he sacked him.  On the other sack literally no one blocked him, blown assignment and he simply ran straight  to the QB.  There doesn’t seem to be any good reason to play this guy in anything but obvious passing downs.  Why GB lives him so much is mysterious.

IMO we still lack the type of elite pass rusher teams need to be dominant.

 

iMO, the rest of the guys have been pretty impressive limiting opponents so well with a pedestrian pass rush and a revolving door of mediocrity at the FS position.

Gilmore has helped tremendously to limit the underneath attack that we have been so susceptible to.  It’s been fun to watch a stud corner.  Never been too many here in INdy. but  I doubt he will want to play with this nosediving, rebuild destined team next season.   Buck is solid.  Grover is good.  The LBs have been disciplined.

 

If Gilmore leaves and we don’t upgrade from YN, I would predict our D to slide next season.  

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, Nickster said:

When I said overrated I meant I think some here think we are a top D.  That isn’t the way I see it.  I think we are adequate but not that great.  Low top half.  I think we will see some bigger points totals v us the next month.  

Did the fact that the offense very rarely gave the defense a break enter your thoughts?  Not only did we have a huge amount of 3 and outs we also had quite a few 1 and 2 outs with a ton of turnovers. Very seldom did we have field position either. Our defense was gassed by halftime most games. 

[Nickster]

58 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Did the fact that the offense very rarely gave the defense a break enter your thoughts?  Not only did we have a huge amount of 3 and outs we also had quite a few 1 and 2 outs with a ton of turnovers. Very seldom did we have field position either. Our defense was gassed by halftime most games. 

To some extent sure.  But we’ve played a lot of bad like really bad offenses too.  So I think there is some balancing there.

 

I’m not saying we aren’t a pretty good defense, I’m just saying I don’t think we are a legit elite type of unit.  Some think we are. But I don’t.  I could change my mind after the next 3 games though because we are facing quality offenses with good QBs and legit weapons.

[DougDew]

One person's opinion of our defense.  Sportsnaut.com.  He's ranked them 16th in the NFL.  Trending the wrong way.  And I don't see where our offensive ineptitude factors into a rushing ypc/avg.   MIN has a balanced offense.

 

We’ve returned to the version of the Indianapolis Colts defense when they are one of the worst run-stopping units in the NFL. Adding the 240-yard effort from the Dallas Cowboys to the equation, Indianapolis has now allowed 533 rushing yards, 5.2 yards per carry and seven rushing touchdowns in the last three games. For good measure, opponents have also averaged a 48.7% third-down conversion rate along with a 98.2 QB rating in that stretch. Dalvin Cook and Justin Jefferson will enjoy their matchup against the Colts, quite a lot.

 

I think I said the final ranking should be about 16-20, but I'd have to go back and look at my answer.

[Two_pound]

The main problem with the defense this year is the same as it's been for the past 50 years-we give up way to many 3rd and 8+ yards for first downs. And it is mainly because we let receivers run through a super soft zone defense with wide open spots because we only rush 4 and sometimes only 3. Peyton Manning did not convert as high a percentage of third and longs as our defense has given up over the past 50 years. And Peyton had Marvin, Reggie, Dilger, Clark, James, Addai and a host of other very good players to work with. So how is it we can't stop anyone on third and long????? And in the response to the poster who said the linebackers have been disciplined, Okereke and Franklin have been in the wrong places on too many plays this year. They are the reason the run defense has been struggling lately.

[bluebombers87]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

One person's opinion of our defense.  Sportsnaut.com.  He's ranked them 16th in the NFL.  Trending the wrong way.  And I don't see where our offensive ineptitude factors into a rushing ypc/avg.   MIN has a balanced offense.

 

We’ve returned to the version of the Indianapolis Colts defense when they are one of the worst run-stopping units in the NFL. Adding the 240-yard effort from the Dallas Cowboys to the equation, Indianapolis has now allowed 533 rushing yards, 5.2 yards per carry and seven rushing touchdowns in the last three games. For good measure, opponents have also averaged a 48.7% third-down conversion rate along with a 98.2 QB rating in that stretch. Dalvin Cook and Justin Jefferson will enjoy their matchup against the Colts, quite a lot.

 

I think I said the final ranking should be about 16-20, but I'd have to go back and look at my answer.

50+ is an indication to me what I’ve suspected the past couple of weeks, in that they lack mental fortitude. They’re capable but when the going gets tough they crumble. I think Leonard mitigated against that somewhat but this is an issue with individuals lacking that fire or “making business decisions”. I can understand the latter with the current state of this team but still…

[DougDew]

20 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

50+ is an indication to me what I’ve suspected the past couple of weeks, in that they lack mental fortitude. They’re capable but when the going gets tough they crumble. I think Leonard mitigated against that somewhat but this is an issue with individuals lacking that fire or “making business decisions”. I can understand the latter with the current state of this team but still…

I don't think its attitude.  I think they are not physically talented enough to make the plays at critical times.  Our very good players doing their jobs fall short when you need to make that special play at a critical time.

 

Look at PIT.  They don't have a particularly great D by their standards, but they have TJ Watt and Minkah Fitzpatrick.  Two players that are very good and must be game planned around....or the O play caller has to know where they are expected to be.

 

If we had just one of those players added to this D, then we would be a playoff caliber defense.  A defense that can stop a playoff caliber offense when it needs to make a play to get the stop. 

[bluebombers87]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I don't think its attitude.  I think they are not physically talented enough to make the plays at critical times.  Our very good players doing their jobs fall short when you need to make that special play at a critical time.

 

Look at PIT.  They don't have a particularly great D by their standards, but they have TJ Watt and Minkah Fitzpatrick.  Two players that are very good and must be game planned around....or the O play caller has to know where they are expected to be.

 

If we had just one of those players added to this D, then we would be a playoff caliber defense.  A defense that can stop a playoff caliber offense when it needs to make a play to get the stop. 

On this I agree. The defense has always been lacking of that top tier player. I thought Leonard could be it and he is at times but not enough to be a TJ Watt type.

[Nickster]

19 hours ago, bluebombers87 said:

On this I agree. The defense has always been lacking of that top tier player. I thought Leonard could be it and he is at times but not enough to be a TJ Watt type.

He plays a different exceedingly less important position.

[chad72]

On 11/30/2022 at 11:04 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Creating Turnovers are huge, it keeps you in games and wins you games. Leonard had 10 last year.

I don’t know. Similar things happened last year too. We didn’t have a single fourth quarter comeback. Even if Wentz would manage to score, the D would give it up. We’re seeing the same things with a different QB, different DC etc. If we went down in the 4th qtr we could never come back. So bottom line we are finding out that when push comes to shove in the 4th quarter, our O can’t burn clock in the 4th quarter with a lead nor can the D get timely stops to preserve a lead.

 

This is the downfall of having DCs that don’t blitz or force the issues on D, despite having players drafted for their 4-3, plus no extra gears to be found on offense and defense with the players when we have to close the deal.

 

All goes back to the GM, IMO. We don’t have a Freeney/Mathis type that will get a game changing fumble, we don’t have Blitzburgh like aggression or talent to force stops, can’t run when we really really need to etc.

[DougDew]

26 minutes ago, chad72 said:

So bottom line we are finding out that when push comes to shove in the 4th quarter, our O can’t burn clock in the 4th quarter with a lead nor can the D get timely stops to preserve a lead.

Bingo.  Frankly, its been like that since Luck left with the O, and I don't know how often we actually closed out close leads with Luck.  He was more about 4Q comebacks with big chunk plays. 

 

The D has always been that way, for as long as I can remember.

[RollerColt]

31 minutes ago, chad72 said:

I don’t know. Similar things happened last year too. We didn’t have a single fourth quarter comeback. Even if Wentz would manage to score, the D would give it up. We’re seeing the same things with a different QB, different DC etc. If we went down in the 4th qtr we could never come back. So bottom line we are finding out that when push comes to shove in the 4th quarter, our O can’t burn clock in the 4th quarter with a lead nor can the D get timely stops to preserve a lead.

 

This is the downfall of having DCs that don’t blitz or force the issues on D, despite having players drafted for their 4-3, plus no extra gears to be found on offense and defense with the players when we have to close the deal.

 

All goes back to the GM, IMO. We don’t have a Freeney/Mathis type that will get a game changing fumble, we don’t have Blitzburgh like aggression or talent to force stops, can’t run when we really really need to etc.

It was amazing to watch Cincy operate on Sunday in the 4th quarter. The defense needed to get a big stop late in the game, and they sacked Mahomes setting up 4th down. Then the Bengals offense complimented by never allowing Patrick back on to the field with Burrow converting an absolute must 3rd down after the 2 minute warning. Clutch players at the most important positions of both sides made the difference. 

 

We simply do not have that here. 

[Nickster]

UPDATE

 

So we currently rank 28th in points conceded and 16th in total yards down from 13th and 6th respectively.

 

I know some think it’s because of offensive ineptitude and doubtless that has hurt the D some but by contrast the Denver Broncos who actually have the only worse offense In football have a legit elite defense rank 10th in points conceded and 6th in yards.

 

So yeah.  This defense is not elite.  Not statistically anyway.  I guess there are other ways to judge but output is the generally accepted way.

 

when I started this poll I thought the D looked better because of playing so many soft offenses.  That seems to have been the case.

[Smonroe]

1 hour ago, Nickster said:

UPDATE

 

So we currently rank 28th in points conceded and 16th in total yards down from 13th and 6th respectively.

 

I know some think it’s because of offensive ineptitude and doubtless that has hurt the D some but by contrast the Denver Broncos who actually have the only worse offense In football have a legit elite defense rank 10th in points conceded and 6th in yards.

 

So yeah.  This defense is not elite.  Not statistically anyway.  I guess there are other ways to judge but output is the generally accepted way.

 

when I started this poll I thought the D looked better because of playing so many soft offenses.  That seems to have been the case.

Agreed, not elite. But it is (was) good enough.  A competent offense and that D would have gotten us into the playoffs.

 

Now, if we can only find a QB who can throw with some velocity over 15 yards…

[John Hammonds]

2 hours ago, Nickster said:

UPDATE

 

So we currently rank 28th in points conceded and 16th in total yards down from 13th and 6th respectively.

 

I know some think it’s because of offensive ineptitude and doubtless that has hurt the D some but by contrast the Denver Broncos who actually have the only worse offense In football have a legit elite defense rank 10th in points conceded and 6th in yards.

 

So yeah.  This defense is not elite.  Not statistically anyway.  I guess there are other ways to judge but output is the generally accepted way.

 

when I started this poll I thought the D looked better because of playing so many soft offenses.  That seems to have been the case.

Let's not forget that we were missing Ngakoue, Leonard, Rodgers, Facyson, Moore, and Lewis.  No, I'm not saying an injured Facyson is the same as an injured Leonard.  But when you're being forced to start at corner a guy who was once jumping on and off the practice squad for special teams duties, your defense is going to underperform significantly.

[Nickster]

6 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

Let's not forget that we were missing Ngakoue, Leonard, Rodgers, Facyson, Moore, and Lewis.  No, I'm not saying an injured Facyson is the same as an injured Leonard.  But when you're being forced to start at corner a guy who was once jumping on and off the practice squad for special teams duties, your defense is going to underperform significantly.

Nagakuae and Facysin were hurt missed yesterday.  Rogers played I think until last week.  But everyone has injuries.  

 

my point I the op was some considered our defense elite. It’s closer to average than elite IMO,

[krunk]

And who actually thought they would be playing elite football these last 2 games?  Everybody has given up as there is nothing left to play for.  Plus par for the course once again the offense does absolutely nothing.   I expected all of these final games to be bad performances.  Not even wasting my time trying to evaluate anything.  Get this team an offense and you wont have too many complaints about the D. 

[Nickster]

15 minutes ago, krunk said:

And who actually thought they would be playing elite football these last 2 games?  Everybody has given up as there is nothing left to play for.  Plus par for the course once again the offense does absolutely nothing.   I expected all of these final games to be bad performances.  Not even wasting my time trying to evaluate anything.  Get this team an offense and you wont have too many complaints about the D. 

Not all the bad teams have given up.  Matter of fact Den, Hou, and Ari seems to be having their best stretch in the season.

 

so even with gIving up surely no one here still actually thinks we  are a top type defense fo they.  We were bound do drop going through playing the best offenses we faced this bast 5 weeks.

 

our d is ok.  

[Nickster]

Oh and by the way @Thunderbolt.  You were the only one who predicted the correct tier of ppg lol.  The rest of us had them 20th or better.  
 

uhh congratulations?

[krunk]

1 minute ago, Nickster said:

Not all the bad teams have given up.  Matter of fact Den, Hou, and Ari seems to be having their best stretch in the season.

 

so even with gIving up surely no one here still actually thinks we  are a top type defense fo they.  We were bound do drop going through playing the best offenses we faced this bast 5 weeks.

 

our d is ok.  

Our bad team has given up and it's not hard at all to see.   This is a better than average defense that's carried the burden of a bad situation for most of the season..   Give them an offense and it's a different situation.  It's not hard to see

[Nickster]

1 minute ago, krunk said:

Our bad team has given up and it's not hard at all to see.   This is a better than average defense that's carried the burden of a bad situation for most of the season..   Give them an offense and it's a different situation.  It's not hard to see

They’re ok.  They are decent.  Yes they are good enough to get into the post with a good NFL offense.  I’m not saying that, but they are about the same they’ve been for the last several years under Flus IMo and actually worse by quite a bit statistically, though sure their are mitigating circumstances that explains some of that.

[chad72]

2 hours ago, Nickster said:

UPDATE

 

So we currently rank 28th in points conceded and 16th in total yards down from 13th and 6th respectively.

 

I know some think it’s because of offensive ineptitude and doubtless that has hurt the D some but by contrast the Denver Broncos who actually have the only worse offense In football have a legit elite defense rank 10th in points conceded and 6th in yards.

 

So yeah.  This defense is not elite.  Not statistically anyway.  I guess there are other ways to judge but output is the generally accepted way.

 

when I started this poll I thought the D looked better because of playing so many soft offenses.  That seems to have been the case.

Yes, playing offenses like the Cowboys and Vikings magnified our team issues more. At full strength they still have the ability to be a Top 10 D with time of possession assistance from the O. But like you said, they’re not as good as the Broncos D that plays situationally better in a vacuum.

[masterlock]

On 11/7/2022 at 2:33 PM, Nickster said:

I think we are probably a top 15 type D.  It's hard to underscore how bad the offenses we've played are this year.  

It's hard to underscore because it's not really true. The Colts played the top 3 scoring offenses in the league (Chiefs, Cowboys, Eagles). They also played the Vikings (8th), Jags (11th), Raiders (12), Chargers (13), Giants (16), and Patriots (17).  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I just saw this from keeper . Basically shows EPA of all 3 phased and how offense is entirely responsible for what has happened.

 

[chad72]

Matt Ryan, Nick Foles, it’s time they hang up their boots. Sam E will have his last chance for audition vs the Texans and if he doesn’t show us much, I’d say clean the QB cupboard and double dip in the draft and add Brissett as the 3rd QB and vet.

[throwing BBZ]

On 12/6/2022 at 8:17 AM, chad72 said:

I don’t know. Similar things happened last year too. We didn’t have a single fourth quarter comeback. Even if Wentz would manage to score, the D would give it up. We’re seeing the same things with a different QB, different DC etc. If we went down in the 4th qtr we could never come back. So bottom line we are finding out that when push comes to shove in the 4th quarter, our O can’t burn clock in the 4th quarter with a lead nor can the D get timely stops to preserve a lead.

 

This is the downfall of having DCs that don’t blitz or force the issues on D, despite having players drafted for their 4-3, plus no extra gears to be found on offense and defense with the players when we have to close the deal.

 

All goes back to the GM, IMO. We don’t have a Freeney/Mathis type that will get a game changing fumble, we don’t have Blitzburgh like aggression or talent to force stops, can’t run when we really really need to etc.

 

  We are running Ballards system with Ballards drafted players to make it work. He has killed us with his failures Turay, Banogu, and tweener Lewis.

 No depth at DT.

  And our LB's get destroyed in the passing game. 

 The o-line is in shambles, not one good blocking TE, and Ballards Big WR's that don't block well and can't get open quickly.

  I CONCEDE, we are doomed with Irsay and Ballard.

 Only a different perspective at GM can clean this up, and Irsay needs to

 "STAY the HE!! IN THE TRUCK" and play with his other Toys.