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Oline Shuffle at DEN


DougDew

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Started out with BR, Q, RK, Smith ,MP  and ended up with Pinter at C for all of the second half. 

 

What are your thoughts?  

 

My observations and thoughts:

 

Struggled badly at pass pro in the first half against a good dline.

Did better in the second half when Raimann seemed to settle down and Pinter played C.

Overall run blocking looked unchanged...better holes in the second half though

Good decision to shuffle the oline...very likely Pryor would have gotten killed at LT and Smith at RT.

But...Pryor looked lost all game.  Raimann seemed to not make assignment mistakes but had technique issues.

This second half lineup is the oline of the future, IMO (barring major additions in the offseason)

 

General:

 

Per traits, Matt Pryor (6th round), Dennis Kelly (5th round), and Bernhard Raimann (3rd round) are the Olineman with OT traits.  With Kelly and BR barely making the threshold since they fail the 34 inch arm length trait.  Braden Smith fails badly with 32.5 inch arms.

Per NFL. com, Pryor was a RG/RT in college and is suited at RT/RG in the NFL due to athleticism limitations. 

The rest are G/Cs.  Most of the guys playing OT are actually T/Gs.

Smith was drafted to be a G, but was pressed into service at RT and played well for 3.5 seasons.  As NFL pass rushers have gotten better the past 5 seasons, its probably best he slides inside.

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1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Started out with BR, Q, RK, nonsense ,MP  and ended up with Pinter at C for all of the second half.  What are your thoughts?  

 

Here are my observations:

 

Struggled badly at pass pro in the first half against a good dline.

Did better in the second half when Raimann seemed to settle down and Pinter played C.

Overall run blocking looked unchanged...better holes in the second half though

Good decision to shuffle the oline...very likely Pryor would have gotten killed at LT and Smith at RT.

But...Pryor looked lost all game.  Raimann seemed to not make mental mistakes but had technique issues.

This second half lineup is the oline of the future, IMO (barring major additions in the offseason)

 

Other thoughts:

 

Per traits, Matt Pryor (6th round), Dennis Kelly (5th round), and Bernhard Raimann (3rd round) are the Olineman with OT traits.  With Kelly and BR barely making the threshold since they fail the 34 inch arm length trait.  Braden Smith fails badly with 32.5 inch arms.

Per NFL. com, Pryor was a RG/RT in college and is suited at RT/RG in the NFL due to athleticism limitations. 

The rest are G/Cs.  Most of the guys playing OT are actually T/Gs.

Smith was drafted to be a G, but was pressed into service at RT and played well for 3.5 seasons.  As NFL pass rushers have gotten better the past 5 seasons, its probably best he slides inside.

Well you lost me at Raimann not making mental mistakes… yeah no. He had 6 penalties. 4 holdings. 1 false start. And 1 ineligible down field. And that’s just the accepted penalties. 
 

 

now, I think the combo they finished the night with is what needs to start next game. That’s with Ryan Kelly out, Pinter in at Center, Smith at RG, Pryor at RT.  The run game improved greatly when Kelly went out. The pressure stopped coming up the middle, but then it came up from the sides. So that was kind of a wash. But it did let Ryan step up a few times to avoid the edge pressure. I think if we can practice with this OL, we might be able to improve some. 

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5 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Well you lost me at Raimann not making mental mistakes… yeah no. He had 6 penalties. 4 holdings. 1 false start. And 1 ineligible down field. And that’s just the accepted penaltie

You're right.  I changed it to assignment mistakes.  He seemed to know who to block.  Pryor's head was on a swivel watching guys go by him.  That was my point.

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15 minutes ago, coltsfeva said:

I honestly wonder why the switch with Smith to guard? Would have liked to see Pryor to RG and leave Smith at RT

It seems to me Smith is better suited to guard long term with his limitations athletically. Pinter may be the answer at center, but we probably need to upgrade at tackle. We should be set at guard.

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Imagine being a rookie and getting your first start off a short week, on the road, in a nationally televised game, against a top 5 defense.

 

Raimann certainly had a rough time with the penalties. But I thought a few of them were kind of cheap and that he held up fairly well in pass pro.

 

It will be interesting to see what they put out there against Jacksonville.

 

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1 hour ago, Orioles22 said:

It seems to me Smith is better suited to guard long term with his limitations athletically. Pinter may be the answer at center, but we probably need to upgrade at tackle. We should be set at guard.

Too early to talk about the draft, but OT is still a high priority, IMO.   Let Raimann and the high draft pick battle it out for LT and put the other at RT.  Make Pryor the 6th man swing backup.  Smith to RG.  Release Kelly and put Pinter at C.

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19 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Too early to talk about the draft, but OT is still a high priority, IMO.   Let Raimann and the high draft pick battle it out for LT and put the other at RT.  Make Pryor the 6th man swing backup.  Smith to RG.  Release Kelly and put Pinter at C.

 

 Raimann will be good enough. AC was right at the top with the league leaders his first TWO years in sacks allowed. Dear in the headlights Ryan doesn't help. Ryan played more like Rivers as the game went on and we did better. The guy needs to get the stick out and play some _____ ball.
 Pinter did good at C. Sadly, i believe Kelly has a body that is just too broken down. Turf = bad. 

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I still don't understand why Dennis Kelly couldn't play tackle. Maybe he's been bad in practice, but he used to be at least average from what I remember in Tennessee.

I'm starting to think we have to trade pretty much the entire draft this year to move up for a quarterback. I've been in favor of Rivers, Wentz, Ryan, but it's time to find a franchise guy - hoping for Levis. We will have to package some picks to get it done.

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As bad as the O-line has looked in weeks past, the O-line was absolutely atrocious last night. Maybe the worst I've seen in the past decade of Colts football, and that's saying a lot.

 

Ryan could not drop back or take a snap from shotgun without 3-4 defenders in his face immediately. Even Nelson was getting pancaked onto his back by a bull rush. It was a bad performance all around.

 

In the second half, after Kelly went out, it went from down right awful to just awful, which was a noticeable upgrade. That's the situation this O-line is in right now. We were happy to see them improve to playing just awful, as if that's actually acceptable.

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There was really no practice this week leading up to these changes on the OL last night.  They did it anyway so we can see how desperate they are to find a solution.  I think the lineup they finished the game with is the one I am hoping they stay with.  That would mean benching Kelly and I’m not confident they will do it.  Reich has shown he has been loyal to his veterans.  Vinny case in point.  We shall see.  I think Pryor just needs more practice at RT.  Same for Smith at RG.  I think they could develop nicely at their new positions.  I thought the line got better as the second half moved along.  Hopefully they stay the course with this lineup.

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Raimann started the game horribly. He had like 3-4 penalties in the first half if I'm not mistaken. But he seemed to settle down as the game progressed so I'm kind of curious to see him start again. It's possible he's not ready at all... 

 

I didn't like Pryor at RT either. I thought this rotation was horrific. Whoever is responsible for that right side shuffle needs to answer some questions. You are making changes to the OL... OK, understandable... good even... but then you go and make it way too complicated and switch the spots for 3 players(4 by the end of the game). There is a zero shot a group will have any semblence of chemistry this way. Should have just left Braden at RT. Put Pryor at RG. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, throwing BBZ said:

 Raimann will be good enough.

Its RT that is more concerning.  Smith has struggled before this year.  Pryor simply doesn't move well enough.  Let a rookie and Raimann compete and put the best one at LT.  That's for long term. 

 

This season its either Smith, Pryor, or Kelly.  Neither has pure T traits, and Pryor and D. Kelly are backup quality.

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Just now, DougDew said:

Its RT that is more concerning.  Smith has struggled before this year.  Pryor simply doesn't move well enough.  Let a rookie and Raimann compete and put the best one at LT.  That's for long term. 

 

This season its either Smith, Pryor, or Kelly.  Neither has pure T traits, and Pryor and D. Kelly are backup quality.

Smith has a relatively long record of being stable at RT. I'm not worried about him long-term at RT. 

 

BTW, if this is what this braintrust is envisioning as long-term solution to the OL issues, then I don't know what the hell we are doing... We are paying 50M to the interior OL from yesterday... WTH is that? 

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11 minutes ago, stitches said:

Smith has a relatively long record of being stable at RT. I'm not worried about him long-term at RT. 

 

BTW, if this is what this braintrust is envisioning as long-term solution to the OL issues, then I don't know what the hell we are doing... We are paying 50M to the interior OL from yesterday... WTH is that? 

Screwed up from a vision/planning point of view, is what it is. 

 

I'm sure that Raimann was drafted to be the LT pretty quickly, and Pryor was paid to compete.  The move of Smith inside suggests that his struggles last year too may be long term if he's left at RT.  Smith was a 3 yr starter at RG for Auburn and was drafted for that spot .  He has G traits.  He should probably move inside despite having success at RT early in his career.  

 

Its a salary structure that only works out in future years when you draft younger OTs...like Raimann..... to play with the expensive Gs.  Its not going to work very well this year.  Delayed gratification you know.

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15 minutes ago, stitches said:

Raimann started the game horribly. He had like 3-4 penalties in the first half if I'm not mistaken. But he seemed to settle down as the game progressed so I'm kind of curious to see him start again. It's possible he's not ready at all... 

 

I didn't like Pryor at RT either. I thought this rotation was horrific. Whoever is responsible for that right side shuffle needs to answer some questions. You are making changes to the OL... OK, understandable... good even... but then you go and make it way too complicated and switch the spots for 3 players(4 by the end of the game). There is a zero shot a group will have any semblence of chemistry this way. Should have just left Braden at RT. Put Pryor at RG. 

 

 

 

disagree they should keep as is but maybe try the other Kelly Dennis at RT

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56 minutes ago, DiogoSales said:

I'm ok giving BR another shot.

Smith is a G, pretty clear now.

Pinter is our C, easy to see that.

I don't know what do to with RT, it's not Pryor, Dennis Kelly?

 

And the worse of all: Can we pick up a stunt and pass a guy laterally? Is it possible?

 

 

Agree, BR needs another shot at LT with more time to prepare than "walk throughs". Pinter did a much better job than Kelly.  RT is a issue that needs addressed. Got a week and half now to prepare

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I don’t think we can return with Pryor at Tackle. That was arguably the worst performance by a Tackle in the whole league this year. Smith needs to go back to RT. At LT, I’d try Dennis Kelly there to see if he can hold up, if not return to Raimann. At RG, I’d try to sign a veteran RG or maybe Fries. At least then it would give us an a patchwork all veteran oline that could hold up somewhat. Also at this stage, there is nothing for it but to fire Strausser, we can’t get any worse.

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I don't think they put Braden Smith in at RG because of his performance at RT. Not to say this year has been great for him at RT, but he's still clearly the best RT on this team as evident of yesterday.

 

It's just that everyone else on the team beyond Nelson and Smith might suck at RG. I do think that they should flip Braden and Pryors spot next week. I'll also add the fact that Pryor somehow was better at LT the last few weeks as well, which most likely means Pryor is just not capable of switching spots and understanding his assignments clearly.

 

I also do hope they try out Dennis Kelly at RT nex week if they are adamant about keeping Braden at RG.

 

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10 minutes ago, colts89 said:

I don't think they put Braden Smith in at RG because of his performance at RT. Not to say this year has been great for him at RT, but he's still clearly the best RT on this team as evident of yesterday.

 

It's just that everyone else on the team beyond Nelson and Smith might suck at RG. I do think that they should flip Braden and Pryors spot next week. I'll also add the fact that Pryor somehow was better at LT the last few weeks as well, which most likely means Pryor is just not capable of switching spots and understanding his assignments clearly.

 

I also do hope they try out Dennis Kelly at RT nex week if they are adamant about keeping Braden at RG.

 

The point is:

 

Sustain the same OL so "continuity" will make it better? Or continue the shuffle and if don't workout, we will never know if it was just bad or lack of continuity?

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Its sooo very bad. Pinter outplayed Ryan last year when he was injured and last night. Need to trade Ryan and give Pinter the Job to free up some of the ridiculous amount of money being spent on this line. 

 

Pryor is a backup, needs to stay that way. Keep Smith at RT and prays he gets it together and earns his paycheck. Rainmann needs to stay at LT and learn, either sink or swim. 

 

Hope and pray Nelson gets it together and plays up to a 20 mil contract. Doubt it happens cause no G is worth that much, but this Oline really is anchoring our team with how much they are getting paid and how bad they are. 
 

I mentioned it in the gameday thread. 20% percent of our entire cap, 42.2 mil the most in the league, and we don't even have the most important position on contract a friggen LT?!! This is a fireable offense for Ballard alone IMO.

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I like they made a change. I dislike making a change this significant on a short week. 
 

As you said in another thread - we won anyway. Let’s just take it as in-game experience and forget this game ever happened.
 

Hope they try the 2nd half line up against the Titans and practice it all week. 

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Prior wouId make a good turnstyIe at the theatre. He is pathetic. Raimann I thought had 2 or 3 very weak hoIding caIIs in the first haIf. Matter of fact I thought we had some terribIe caIIs Iast night. I was for trading KeIIy in the off season Iast year as I feIt Pinter outpayed him Iast year when KeIIy was out. Wish we had GIow or Reed back at right guard. FeeI that is reaIIy hurting us now.

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Nesjan3 said:

 

 

I mentioned it in the gameday thread. 20% percent of our entire cap, 42.2 mil the most in the league, and we don't even have the most important position on contract a friggen LT?!! This is a fireable offense for Ballard alone IMO.

You can mention it all you want, and it's still factually wrong.  You might not like the guys they have at LT, I might not either....but they absolutely have multiple players on contract at LT.  Also, that's a pretty low bar for fireable offense... You just have to hire a LT and your good?

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13 minutes ago, Jackie Daytona said:

You can mention it all you want, and it's still factually wrong.  You might not like the guys they have at LT, I might not either....but they absolutely have multiple players on contract at LT.  Also, that's a pretty low bar for fireable offense... You just have to hire a LT and your good?

Of course we have LT's on contract, a player cant play on the team without a contract your misunderstanding. What im saying is we don't have a good LT on a high priced long term contract. Look around the league at Olines. LT is the highest paid position. Thats the most important position. Ballards built this line by paying the G, C and RT. We have the highest paid Oline in the league thats playing as a bottom 5 and don't have a high priced LT. Its backwards. Thats fireable.

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The LT debacle is another Ballard failure. It was just like when he let Autry go and the only thing he did at DE was sign Issac Rochelle and then draft Paye (who was noted as being very raw and needing time to develop) and Dayo who was coming of an Achilles tear.

 

This year for LT he did nothing besides draft Rainman who like Paye, was noted as being somewhat raw and would need time to develop. Now you try and start the kid a quarter way into the season because you’re paying Matt Pryor $5 million to be a tackling sled. No time for him and Nelson to work on chemistry at all during the off-season, just thrown straight into the fire.

 

This OL is a disaster and the shuffle (while needed) was an abject failure. Matt Pryor should honestly be cut. He’s that bad. One of the worst OL the Colts have put on the field since Hugh Thorton it any one of those terrible lineman Grigson put in front of Luck. There’s no excuse for someone that bad to even be on the team, let alone given a chance to start at two different positions. 

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I was surprised to see us decide to shuffle this week of all weeks. Short week, no practice, on the road, in a tough stadium in thin air. This could’ve been done leading up to against Tennessee… 

 

Not much I can say about Pryor. He just doesn’t have it. Rest of the line ebbed and flowed between awful and serviceable. One of the best plays of blocking led to an interception… 

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10 hours ago, DougDew said:

Started out with BR, Q, RK, Smith ,MP  and ended up with Pinter at C for all of the second half. 

 

What are your thoughts?  

 

My observations and thoughts:

 

Struggled badly at pass pro in the first half against a good dline.

Did better in the second half when Raimann seemed to settle down and Pinter played C.

Overall run blocking looked unchanged...better holes in the second half though

Good decision to shuffle the oline...very likely Pryor would have gotten killed at LT and Smith at RT.

But...Pryor looked lost all game.  Raimann seemed to not make assignment mistakes but had technique issues.

This second half lineup is the oline of the future, IMO (barring major additions in the offseason)

 

General:

 

Per traits, Matt Pryor (6th round), Dennis Kelly (5th round), and Bernhard Raimann (3rd round) are the Olineman with OT traits.  With Kelly and BR barely making the threshold since they fail the 34 inch arm length trait.  Braden Smith fails badly with 32.5 inch arms.

Per NFL. com, Pryor was a RG/RT in college and is suited at RT/RG in the NFL due to athleticism limitations. 

The rest are G/Cs.  Most of the guys playing OT are actually T/Gs.

Smith was drafted to be a G, but was pressed into service at RT and played well for 3.5 seasons.  As NFL pass rushers have gotten better the past 5 seasons, its probably best he slides inside.

God what an expensive interior. Kelly needs to be gone. 

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