Need to get out of shotgun

[CurBeatElite]

 

 

The above 8 minute video is a great, informative video from that video crew.  They talk about how much easier it is to defend against an offense that is always in 'the gun'.  The defenders (at every level) see more about what the QBs doing behind the line. There's much less threat of play action (the hardest play to defend against according to ex-NFL defenders).  A whole lot more in that video... they talk about how the Bengals are learning from self-scouting and greatly reducing the amount of time they are in shot gun throughout the season.  

 

Watching this game tonight, we're almost entirely in shotgun.  One of the few 'almost good' (Pittman wound up dropping it after a nice hit by the safety) pass plays from the first half came on a first down, where we started under center and ran play action.  

[Boondoggle]

You can run play action from the gun.  Just need a RB that is comfortable with it.  Some of them hate doing that, or are much better with a normal handoff in making their reads.  It's all about the defense recognizing the threat so for there to be bite in play action you have to actually show you can stay ahead of the chains doing it.  If you were to fake a handoff from the gun after showing let's say a few games of putting up over 100 yards on your opponents it would work just fine to suck up the LBs and make that space for the receivers.

 

What the Colts are suffering from is teams aren't afraid of their wideouts.  Nor do they need to worry about Ryan either hitting a receiver deep or being able to hold the ball long enough without being sacked.  So defenses pin their ears and play on their toes going forward ready to wreck the underneath.

 

Lack of weapons is a bad deal in today's NFL.  So is a porous OL.  Colts suffering from both and also have a QB who can't handle any disruption of his timing without his accuracy suffering.  He's throwing behind receivers on 5 yard routes out there.

[CurBeatElite]

21 hours ago, Boondoggle said:

You can run play action from the gun.  Just need a RB that is comfortable with it.  Some of them hate doing that, or are much better with a normal handoff in making their reads.  It's all about the defense recognizing the threat so for there to be bite in play action you have to actually show you can stay ahead of the chains doing it.  If you were to fake a handoff from the gun after showing let's say a few games of putting up over 100 yards on your opponents it would work just fine to suck up the LBs and make that space for the receivers.

 

What the Colts are suffering from is teams aren't afraid of their wideouts.  Nor do they need to worry about Ryan either hitting a receiver deep or being able to hold the ball long enough without being sacked.  So defenses pin their ears and play on their toes going forward ready to wreck the underneath.

 

Lack of weapons is a bad deal in today's NFL.  So is a porous OL.  Colts suffering from both and also have a QB who can't handle any disruption of his timing without his accuracy suffering.  He's throwing behind receivers on 5 yard routes out there.

 

The video is worth a watch.  The former NFL players and other commentators do a very good job.  

 

Of course, you can run play action from the gun.  That said, as the former NFL players explain, the entire D can see what's going on behind the line of scrimmage much better than when QB is under center.  You're also very limited in play action from the gun (e.g., no stretch play).  

 

If nothing else, scroll to 3 minutes and listen to Mina Kimes.  She talks about the Bengals self-scouting themselves.. Joe Burrow week 1 under center only 3% of the time, week 2 16% of the time, week 3 22% of the time, week 4 he was under center over 25% of the time.  The Bengals offense is getting better each week, more single high looks from the opposing D... she says it very well "you need to have your pass game look more like your run game"..... we don't do that, if we run from shotgun, it's usually a very telegraphed handoff to Hines up the middle.. otherwise, we're passing and defenses can play 2 safeties high.  

 

Our offensive line needs to start gelling better (I think they can), or it's not going to matter what we run... but assuming we can protect Matty Ice, I think we're going to be much better off not running the entire game out of shotgun.

 

I also disagree with you on the WRs.  Pierce, Granson, Woods all seem to be building trust with Ryan (heck, even Campbell made a couple critical catches last night).  Pittman is legit.  As Ryan gels more with them, our WRs are actually not the problem.  Our pass protection and our predictable play calling, IMO, are much more a problem than lack of talent at WR/TE.

[Boondoggle]

5 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

The video is worth a watch.  The former NFL players and other commentators do a very good job.  

 

Of course, you can run play action from the gun.  That said, as the former NFL players explain, the entire D can see what's going on behind the line of scrimmage much better than when QB is under center.  You're also very limited in play action from the gun (e.g., no stretch play).  

 

If nothing else, scroll to 3 minutes and listen to Mina Kimes. 

I don't mean to sound like a jerk but I don't hold Mina's opinion in high regard.  Point was that you can get folks in the media making more out of things than they need to and just pointing out some sensationalism was afoot.

 

As it pertains to the wideouts yes a disagreement sounds excellent.  Not interested in a duel where we wear skinny jeans and bang away at our keyboards while you twirl your mustachio and gaze wisely into the sunset.  Instead I'll hoist another strong one and rest assured that my contribution to this fine establishment has been appropriately dispensed.

[Colts1324]

Have said this for months. Reich’s favorite play-call is 2nd & long shotgun run up the middle.
 

To be fair, it worked when our line was top 3 because we would consistently dominate the DLINE off the ball. But now, it turns into 3rd & long 80% of the time. Teams can then dial up their pass rush knowing our receivers have to get more depth on their routes. Recipe for disaster

[CurBeatElite]

7 hours ago, Boondoggle said:

I don't mean to sound like a jerk but I don't hold Mina's opinion in high regard.  Point was that you can get folks in the media making more out of things than they need to and just pointing out some sensationalism was afoot.

 

As it pertains to the wideouts yes a disagreement sounds excellent.  Not interested in a duel where we wear skinny jeans and bang away at our keyboards while you twirl your mustachio and gaze wisely into the sunset.  Instead I'll hoist another strong one and rest assured that my contribution to this fine establishment has been appropriately dispensed.

The opinions in the video came from ex-nfl players. Mina provided facts about how the Bengals have reduced their time in the shotgun and that they're offense is better for it.

 

We need our O to be less predictable and that's not going to come from being in the gun formation as much as we are.

[Behle]

There must be an advantage for the offense otherwise they wouldn’t use it. Teams then must weigh the advantage for the O vs giving the D  a better read. 

[1959Colts]

I believe Taylor would be much more effective if we ran more from "under center" 

So many times, when in short yardage situations, Reich runs from the shotgun, and fails to gain the necessary yardage.

[1959Colts]

They should hire Orlovsky as Colts next coach. He always seems to see all the things we are doing wrong.

[CurBeatElite]

1 hour ago, Behle said:

There must be an advantage for the offense otherwise they wouldn’t use it. Teams then must weigh the advantage for the O vs giving the D  a better read. 

 

The only 3 things I can think as to why we're in shotgun so much are: 1) something to do with Matt Ryan-Ryan Kelly and Matt's fumbling issues, 2) our OL being so porous that Reich thinks shotgun gives Ryan a little more time/room to throw, 3) Reich being stubborn and not changing his play calling.

 

Our O is not exactly lighting the world on fire this year. I don't know that we can argue our O has any advantage over opposing D's. 

 

As the video points out, in this passing friendly league, being in shotgun often winds up being advantageous to the D at every level because it let's them focus on the pass (or be able to read a run easier if an O runs out of the gun). 

 

The idea that the Bengals have self-scouted and realized they are much more successful moving from 3% of snaps under center to 26% under center is pretty clear.... I feel like Reich would benefit from some heavy self-scouting and realizing we run a very predictable offense.

[Boondoggle]

5 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

The opinions in the video came from ex-nfl players. Mina provided facts about how the Bengals have reduced their time in the shotgun and that they're offense is better for it.

 

We need our O to be less predictable and that's not going to come from being in the gun formation as much as we are.

I am glad you enjoyed the video.

[Boondoggle]

To shotgun or not to shotgun that is the question.  But generally it is a question of QB preference.  If the QB is more comfortable in the gun then you scheme it up that way.

 

Some RBs detest taking handoffs from the gun.  I have no idea what Jonathan thinks of the issue, and he probably wouldn't admit it to the press if even if he hated it, especially if Ryan is pushing for the gun.  But there are some who are less effective running out of that handoff angle.

 

Also I will add that you can reach a point where the player opinion may be wrong.  Situationally an example would be if the QB wants to play in the gun but all his throws are off in timing.  Which we have seen with Ryan all season.  Now I think Ryan's problems are him trying to hurry his throws which he has never been good at, nor has he ever excelled off sched.  But it is possible to improve timing by synching up footwork because that footwork can be very consistent and precise and provides a clock to some extent in the QB's head.

 

If you are in a situation where the QB wants to play in the gun but is better in a drop to keep him on time, and your back is more effective with conventional handoffs then that's probably enough to tell the QB "we're going to do this our way."  That isn't ideal, and I have no idea what Ryan thinks of the gun even though I presume he prefers it.  But I imagine if his timing doesn't improve that he will be moved back under center more to help him get his timing back.  Maybe even go under center early in the game to get him into the flow and then transition back to gun.