Jump to content
Indianapolis Colts
Indianapolis Colts Fan Forum

Conundrum I'm thinking about today


John Hammonds
 Share

Recommended Posts

I want to be upset at the Dolphins' doctors, who allowed Tua Tagovailoa to play again after having concussion-like symptoms only 5 days before.  The doctors should err on the side of caution, and if they think the player shouldn't play, then he shouldn't play.

 

By the same token, I want the Colts' doctors to let Leonard play, whether he's 100% or not.  I don't want them to err on the side of caution.

 

Yeah.  Conundrum.

  • Like 3
  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We don’t know what is going on with either of them. A lot of speculation with both players. With concussions at the forefront of concerns I tend to believe the doctors made a decision that followed the guidelines in place. Even then, medicine is often times a guess.  Its just a tough situation to be in.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's ugly to see what happened to Tua.  It may be related to last week, but man the way the back of his head hit the turf last night was probably more than enough itself to do what it did.  That was a nasty, nasty hit to the head. 

 

Not only is he getting rolled, but for some reason he arches his back as he goes down.  Hard to look at. His head doesn't even bounce to dissipate any of the energy either because he is being pinned down.  Ugly. 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it is silly how people are trying to blame the NFL for this.  Every player could be fine or could get injured on any play.  If he passed the rules that are in place then no one did anything wrong.  

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, strt182 said:

it doesnt look like his head hit that hard actually it was his elbow and back, from the videos i have seen. Still a scary situation.

Okay, but this was his second time hitting the turf in four days. I can see your point but last Sunday, if his spokesperson said it was a back injury he should have reached both arms to support his stance. Instead, did you notice him shaking his head?

He needs to be watched very closely because the mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Mighty Blue said:

Okay, but this was his second time hitting the turf in four days. I can see your point but last Sunday, if his spokesperson said it was a back injury he should have reached both arms to support his stance. Instead, did you notice him shaking his head?

He needs to be watched very closely because the mind is a terrible thing to waste.

I agree. The shaking of the head can be many factors ,especially when it comes to the nerves, I'm no doctor but i have had some injuries involving nerves and also my back. The body is a crazy think and acts in different ways. I'm not saying one way or the other but there was protocol that he had to pass last week and AS LONG AS THAT WAS FOLLOWED then it was fit for him to go back out there and play.  

 

Tua could have sat longer last week. The coach could have also made him sit longer and probably should have for at least a series or more. But if its a back issue its a back issue especially if they have some knowledge about the back issue and possibly locking up on Tua.

 

I think this is where Leonard is at with his self evaluation saying he just aint ready yet. I hope Leonard can play this weekend though but I'm ok if he can't. Sometimes we have to be protected from ourselves.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, strt182 said:

I agree. The shaking of the head can be many factors ,especially when it comes to the nerves, I'm no doctor but i have had some injuries involving nerves and also my back. The body is a crazy think and acts in different ways. I'm not saying one way or the other but there was protocol that he had to pass last week and AS LONG AS THAT WAS FOLLOWED then it was fit for him to go back out there and play.  

 

Tua could have sat longer last week. The coach could have also made him sit longer and probably should have for at least a series or more. But if its a back issue its a back issue especially if they have some knowledge about the back issue and possibly locking up on Tua.

 

I think this is where Leonard is at with his self evaluation saying he just aint ready yet. I hope Leonard can play this weekend though but I'm ok if he can't. Sometimes we have to be protected from ourselves.  

Yup!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Im pretty sure the doctors aren’t the ones holding Leonard back anymore. He has been practicing fully for weeks.

 

Im pretty sure it’s Leonard himself. Which is okay. Dude has to feel ready to play with full speed contact.

 

He seems like he has been a good coach/ motivator on the sideline the last few weeks. Hopefully he is still ready to be a player though. Not so sure that he isn’t ready to retire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Leonard... he's normally open about stuff. Likely we'll hear details later (if he wanted to play, or the team kept him from playing). Hope it's not the team holding out. Regardless, LB has not been a big issue. Not great, but not horrible. We need his turnovers though. 

 

On Tua... seems (again) people are looking for something to get triggered about. If Miami followed protocol last week, no issue. If lied, another story. Sounds like they followed protocol. And Tua also said so. He also said back, not head. If he lied, his issue. FB is a collision sport. The hit last night was violent. It happens. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

With Tua, it was obvious on Sunday that something was wrong with him, the way he was staggering. It reminded me of a game in 2011 in which Chargers guard Kris Dielman was stunned and staggering in New York against the Jets, but continued to play. He suffered a grand mal seizure on the plane back to San Diego and never played again, retiring 4 months later.

 

I don't think this is it for Tua, but IMO he shouldn't have been back on the field 4 days later, whether it was his head or his back that was hurt last Sunday. Instead of letting him rest for virtually 2 weeks and come back 100% next weekend against their divisional rival Jets, now they've lost him for awhile, the length of which is currently unknown. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Myles said:

I think it is silly how people are trying to blame the NFL for this.  Every player could be fine or could get injured on any play.  If he passed the rules that are in place then no one did anything wrong.  


False. You can’t watch that play against Buffalo, see him get up shaking his head and stumbling to the ground, being held up by a teammate, and possibly think it was a back injury.

He should have been held out, regardless of how he felt at half. The fact an INDEPENDENT doctor cleared him shows there are issues with the process.

Four days later and he takes a hit and his body goes limp. Another head injury. One of the worst things you can do is pile a head injury on top of a recent head injury. 
The Dolphins and the NFL should be ashamed. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It might have been unethical to send him back out there Sunday but if all T's were crossed and I's dotted then it would be on Tua . As stated above I think he should have been held out a lil long and sometimes those with authority , in the case coaches, could have protected Tua from himself. That being said they are all adults out there. 

 

Could this be a situation where the NFL adds more rules to the protocol probably, 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Blame Tua? What?

Of course the player is going to want to go back in. The guy is in the 3rd year of a rookie contact and wants to get hundreds of millions in a couple years.

The protocol was put in place to protect players from themselves.

 

Blame the Dolphins staff for overlooking the obvious.

Blame the doctor who gave the thumbs up.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, TheNextGM said:

Blame Tua? What?

Of course the player is going to want to go back in. The guy is in the 3rd year of a rookie contact and wants to get hundreds of millions in a couple years.

The protocol was put in place to protect players from themselves.

 

Blame the Dolphins staff for overlooking the obvious.

Blame the doctor who gave the thumbs up.

The doctor has been fired.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, TheNextGM said:

Blame Tua? What?

Of course the player is going to want to go back in. The guy is in the 3rd year of a rookie contact and wants to get hundreds of millions in a couple years.

The protocol was put in place to protect players from themselves.

 

Blame the Dolphins staff for overlooking the obvious.

Blame the doctor who gave the thumbs up.

 

There's nothing obvious here. 

 

You think following people lied :

 

Tua

Whole Dolphins staff and organization

NFL (they may not be aware) 

Independent evaluator

Dolphins' medical staff

 

I think the doctors won't risk lying for the fear of losing their licence and livelihood, for some small gain from Dolphins over what they could earn over their entire career. 

 

I understand what you're saying, and there are lot of gray areas on how NFL concussion protocol works or could be improved, but... 

 

There's nothing obvious here, as you say, or in the aftermath of the hit in the Buffalo game. 

 

In the Buffalo game video, his ankle got twisted as Tua himself explained, and he fell. He was listed as back/ankle injury. Dolphins coach said his back has been hurting for sometime but he has been able to play through it, which lot of NFL players do all through out the season. 

 

Some fans see that video and head shake as result of concussion. 

 

It doesn't mean he suffered concussion the previous week. 

 

But, above all, why is this being discussed over and over as something obvious when none of us have any concrete information? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Dingus McGirt said:

The doctor has been fired.

 

Quote

The Players Association has the ability to terminate the Unaffiliated Neurotrauma Consultant in these situations, and it exercised that right on Saturday.

 

The independent evaluator has been fired, as NFLPA started an investigation and he's being investigated and they won't really want him to be on that job for upcoming weeks and games until the investigation is done. That means they will hire someone else for that position to be independent evaluator for one of the weekly NFL games. 

 

NFLPA says they found that doctor did "several mistakes" in his clearance. 

 

Tua had to be cleared by both that independent evaluator and the team physician in order to enter back into the game against buffalo. 

 

Let's see if NFLPA discloses what several mistakes that consultant did and if that means Dolphins team and medical staff also did the same mistakes to clear Tua from being sent into Concussion protocol. 

 

If there were really loopholes in the process, then NFLPA should proceed to rectify that and make sure it doesn't happen again, and impose proper punishment for those involved. I hope they make their investigation results transparent, after accusing others of hiding something. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, VikingsFanInChennai said:

 

There's nothing obvious here. 

 

You think following people lied :

 

Tua

Whole Dolphins staff and organization

NFL (they may not be aware) 

Independent evaluator

Dolphins' medical staff

 

I think the doctors won't risk lying for the fear of losing their licence and livelihood, for some small gain from Dolphins over what they could earn over their entire career. 

 

I understand what you're saying, and there are lot of gray areas on how NFL concussion protocol works or could be improved, but... 

 

There's nothing obvious here, as you say, or in the aftermath of the hit in the Buffalo game. 

 

In the Buffalo game video, his ankle got twisted as Tua himself explained, and he fell. He was listed as back/ankle injury. Dolphins coach said his back has been hurting for sometime but he has been able to play through it, which lot of NFL players do all through out the season. 

 

Some fans see that video and head shake as result of concussion. 

 

It doesn't mean he suffered concussion the previous week. 

 

But, above all, why is this being discussed over and over as something obvious when none of us have any concrete information? 


The doc was fired for making several mistakes.

And the Dolphins doc also cleared him.

 

It was obvious. Blatantly obvious.

Even my wife who doesn’t watch football saw the play and said he was done. The fact is this is a business and teams value winning. 
 

If you watch that Buffalo play and him shake his head and wobble when he gets up - it’s obvious. He wasn’t right. And now he’s got two head injuries in the span of 4 days. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, TheNextGM said:

Blame Tua? What?

Of course the player is going to want to go back in. The guy is in the 3rd year of a rookie contact and wants to get hundreds of millions in a couple years.

The protocol was put in place to protect players from themselves.

 

Blame the Dolphins staff for overlooking the obvious.

Blame the doctor who gave the thumbs up.

 

So there is zero accountability from player? It's OK to lie?

Ridiculous. 

 

As I understand it, the doctor was unaffiliated doctor / UNC (not team doc).  Which was placed (all games) due to NFLPA/NFL agreement. And NFLPA had power to fire. So if there was a failure, the player lied and a NFL/NFLPA UNC made mistakes. Not a team issue. 

 

This "blame-game" is hilarious. Lying players are innocent. It's all on the team... holy cow. 

Nanny world. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

So there is zero accountability from player? It's OK to lie?

Ridiculous. 

 

As I understand it, the doctor was unaffiliated doctor / UNC (not team doc).  Which was placed (all games) due to NFLPA/NFL agreement. And NFLPA had power to fire. So if there was a failure, the player lied and a NFL/NFLPA UNC made mistakes. Not a team issue. 

 

This "blame-game" is hilarious. Lying players are innocent. It's all on the team... holy cow. 

Nanny world. 


Who said he lied? Tua would have said he felt like he could play. He wanted to play. And when QBs are signing for hundreds of millions of dollars, who wouldn’t want to play. 
 

It can’t be his choice. There was obviously something wrong and the doc and team managers should have not ignored the obvious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don’t know if you’ve had a concussion before but I have. The fact is, you don’t really feel all that bad 20, 30, 40 minutes later. You’re rattled in the moment and then it clears.

 

You feel it more the following day.

Tua would have felt fine at halftime and conveyed that to the doctor. The doctor, the person MEDICALLY TRAINED should have know better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, TheNextGM said:


Who said he lied? Tua would have said he felt like he could play. He wanted to play. And when QBs are signing for hundreds of millions of dollars, who wouldn’t want to play. 
 

It can’t be his choice. There was obviously something wrong and the doc and team managers should have not ignored the obvious.

 

He was very, very clear. Said his back locked (causing the stumble)..... not because dizziness.  

 

And without the stumble, all the folks aren't going full triggered. So either he lied, or then there's no an issue. Which is it?

 

It was not his choice. It's the reason UNCs are there (NFL/NFLPA position).

 

Perhaps you should read details on the situation... and rules... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, TheNextGM said:

I don’t know if you’ve had a concussion before but I have. The fact is, you don’t really feel all that bad 20, 30, 40 minutes later. You’re rattled in the moment and then it clears.

 

You feel it more the following day.

Tua would have felt fine at halftime and conveyed that to the doctor. The doctor, the person MEDICALLY TRAINED should have know better.

 

I played sports (including FB), and have had concussions. I knew when I was dizzy. Simple... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/30/2022 at 4:38 PM, John Hammonds said:

I want to be upset at the Dolphins' doctors, who allowed Tua Tagovailoa to play again after having concussion-like symptoms only 5 days before.  The doctors should err on the side of caution, and if they think the player shouldn't play, then he shouldn't play.

 

By the same token, I want the Colts' doctors to let Leonard play, whether he's 100% or not.  I don't want them to err on the side of caution.

 

Yeah.  Conundrum.

 

I want him to play but I absolutely want the medical staff to err on the side of caution. A random win in Week 4 isn't worth trading Leonard's long-term health for. You can't be messing around and rolling the dice when it comes to the back/spine. 

 

On 9/30/2022 at 6:04 PM, Myles said:

I think it is silly how people are trying to blame the NFL for this.  Every player could be fine or could get injured on any play.  If he passed the rules that are in place then no one did anything wrong.  

 

It's the job of the NFL and its organisations to try to keep the players safe though, not place them in harm's way intentionally. At least, it should be. 

 

That's like saying people shouldn't have to wear seatbelts when they drive because there's a chance that they'll crash and die anyway. I think that's silly.

 

He didn't pass the rules that were in place, which is a huge part of the problem. Gross Motor Instability is supposed to be an immediate removal from the game and he's placed into concussion protocol. Gross Motor Instability is exactly what Tua displayed but he returned to the game anyway. The only way this could happen is if his instability was proven to be orthopaedic rather than neurological, and there's simply no way that that was the case. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

So there is zero accountability from player? It's OK to lie?

Ridiculous. 

 

This "blame-game" is hilarious. Lying players are innocent. It's all on the team... holy cow. 

Nanny world. 

 

This take is wild to me.

 

Imagine Tua being 'cleared' by the medical staff and then insisting that he doesn't feel right and refusing to go back in. Imagine the way that everyone - fans, media, teammates - would react to that. We've already got * fans of this team insisting that Leonard should be playing because he was able to stand on the sideline and cheer the team on against the Chiefs - people questioning his commitment.

 

Almost every player is likely to *want* to go back in because they're competitive and relentless by their very nature. It's tough to get to the NFL if you're not a little crazy like that. But even more importantly, every player is *forced* to want to go back in because their entire livelihood depends on it. Tua hasn't had a great start to his career. He's just getting hot and you expect him to say, 'Nah coach, stick Teddy out there. I'm gonna sit this one out. He can win the game as well as I can so it's all good.' You need a little head wobble of your own if you think that constitutes lying or if you think any player is going to say something like that.

 

It's the players that put their lives on the line when they take the field. They make a fantastic living doing it, and they do it by choice, but there are a huge number of people who also make a great living in the NFL without ever having to place themselves in equally dangerous situations. It's the responsibility of those people - owners, doctors, NFL staff, etc. - to safeguard the players on whom the league relies because they're not always in a position to safeguard themselves.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The doc who missed it just paid with his job.  That's a wrap as far as I'm concerned.

 

But of course internet doctors and wannabe medical experts in the fan base and media will fuel the overreactions that inevitably lead to a flag football league.  I fear that's where this leads.  And why stop there.  After that they can start focusing on other important things like why do we keep score in sports and whether it's necessary for someone to lose.

  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Mackrel829 said:

 

This take is wild to me.

 

Imagine Tua being 'cleared' by the medical staff and then insisting that he doesn't feel right and refusing to go back in. Imagine the way that everyone - fans, media, teammates - would react to that. We've already got * fans of this team insisting that Leonard should be playing because he was able to stand on the sideline and cheer the team on against the Chiefs - people questioning his commitment.

 

Almost every player is likely to *want* to go back in because they're competitive and relentless by their very nature. It's tough to get to the NFL if you're not a little crazy like that. But even more importantly, every player is *forced* to want to go back in because their entire livelihood depends on it. Tua hasn't had a great start to his career. He's just getting hot and you expect him to say, 'Nah coach, stick Teddy out there. I'm gonna sit this one out. He can win the game as well as I can so it's all good.' You need a little head wobble of your own if you think that constitutes lying or if you think any player is going to say something like that.

 

It's the players that put their lives on the line when they take the field. They make a fantastic living doing it, and they do it by choice, but there are a huge number of people who also make a great living in the NFL without ever having to place themselves in equally dangerous situations. It's the responsibility of those people - owners, doctors, NFL staff, etc. - to safeguard the players on whom the league relies because they're not always in a position to safeguard themselves.

 

Try... Facts. and.. Accountability (including player)...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...