Ground and pound vs. 'the new NFL'

[oldunclemark]

In many discussions...many of you suggest you hated our old style of play.

Some say they want a balanced attack for the 2012 Colts.

One where we establish the run and dont pass so much like the old country boy did.

The inference is that all our failures (not our successes) over the last decade were due to an over-reliance on the pass.'

..and the theme seems (to me) to be a school of thought that NOW as we have good coaching and a more conventional QB that we will be more of a classic NFL team, a 66-33%, 1970s run-pass team.

I would contend that those days are gone...and we will lose trying to establish the run

Andrew Luck will, indeed throw 30 - 40 times a game and we will like the results.

My thought is that unless Tim Tebow is the QB, nobody wins when they 'ground and pound'

Fans like physical football and physical is the nature of the game...but we cant turn back the clock.

Pundits seem to hate on the Colts...in my mind..because the Colts of the last decade were a finesse team...but pundits are old people.

No one has won recently with ground and pound...and I'd predict no one will.

The kind of offense Indy built spawned what New England did and what New Orleans and Detroit do. Spread the field. throws the ball and run when the defense spreads.

Since we play indoors (a big factor late in the year) and in warm weather sites every year (Houston Jacksonville and Tennesse) 11 games of 16 every year and since we have the talent at QB.

We MUST continue to be an air force. To do anything else wastes our talent.

We can ride that type of attack to the Super Bowl.

We have done it before and everybody does it now.

How many want a stronger run game than a passing game?

How many want us to run fron conventional two-back and double tight end sets most of the game?

How many want us to 'protect Andrew Luck' by not having him throw as much as that other guy we used to have...or those new agers like Drew Brees.?

Your thoughts..

[Jules]

You need balance.......not just a video game offense every week in the regular season that makes ESPN highlights.

BTW my all time personal favorite playoff game from the Manning era I keep finding myself watching over the years is ironically Colts at Ravens in the divisional round in the SB run. Not pretty, but it got the job done and Rhodes runs to ice the game always stuck in my mind.

You have to be able to win both ugly and pretty at times IMO, to win a title. The 2006 Colts did just that.

[Jules]

No one has won recently with ground and pound...and I'd predict no one will.

Both the 2010 Packers and 2011 Giants had an improvement in their running games once the playoffs began, over their regular season stats.

Someone once posted the number of running attempts made by the Colts vs. the Bears and then vs. the Saints in both SBs. The run was a huge part of why the Colts became champions in 2006.

You don't have to have the best run game in the league, but the threat should be there.

[funktacious2]

You definitely need balance, and even though we may be doing more ground and pound, we'll throw well too. Pagano has said repeatedly that if we have to throw the ball most of a game we will be good at it.

[OldSchoolColt]

I know that if the "run blocking" OL that has been installed gets Luck sacked too many times or even hurt, I know fans will call for Grigson's head. The main change seems to be putting more of the cap into defense, which is OK as long as Luck gets all the tools he needs to shine.

[Carlos Danger]

Luck is a big, athletic guy, but Manning was the IRONMAN. We need balance because it is just unreasonable to expect that Luck will go 13 years without missing any playing time due to injury. I'd like to know that, in the middle of a playoff run, we might be able to lose our QB for a couple games without having zero chance against any team. I will accept being dead in the water if our QB goes on IR before the season starts, but not missing the playoffs because we couldn't win 1 of 4 with our backup. I loved watching our offense with #18 at the helm, but I'd like to see some balance... not Chicago/Pittsburgh type of balance, just a little less finesse and a little more swagger.

[dgambill]

I prefer us following the mold that we used last time. Starting out being more balanced as we did with our rookie qb in Peyton Manning with running the ball with Faulk and then Edge and slowly transitioning to a team that threw the ball more. Lets just be honest here folks...our greatest offensive teams were like in 2004-2008 when we had Edge and when Addai was young. We ran the ball and threw the ball and our offense was setting records. As we became more pass only you see what happened over the last several years. We did get to another Super Bowl but our most explosive offensive teams where when we had a REAL THREAT in the backfield to keep the defense honest....I mean Peyton and those play actions FROZE LBS and Safteys.

At least until Luck has transitioned I think in the first couple years give him a running game to cut his teeth. Luck has always had a run first team. You act like he played in some pass happy offense at Stanford. He can throw but do we want him back there with this patched up OL 40 times a game letting guys like Peppers and Mathews and Suh come after him? Like I've said there is nothing wrong with throwing less if your more efficient in your passing game doing so. A running game opens up throwing lanes. Brady only avgs 38 passes a game and he throws a lot. No reason we can't win running 25-30 times and throwing 30-35.

A run balanced team won our division last year. In fact outside NE all the AFC teams were run balanced teams. NFC has NO, Detroit, and GB but funny how none of those teams even made the NFC Championship. San Francisco and New York both run the ball well (at least at the end of the year). Throwing the ball a lot doesn't mean you will win a championship. Luck may be the best rookie qb next year...but that won't make him an elite qb year 1 necessarily. We don't have Cincy defense or Carolina's running game and line (true keys to Cams success). We should just do what our team's talents dictate they can do best. This team it looks like running the ball and throwing out of play action and short timing routes would give us the best chance to win.

Give Luck a few years and he will be throwing it all over the place...if you don't...he may not survive that long.

[LightninMax]

Balance is a requisite for being in SB contention. I define balance as 60% passing. The very best situation is to force the other team to defend against your ability to score on any play from any location. But when they over defend, it is most necessary to be able to run it up their gut! Third down conversions, red zone yardage, and scores depend on a two pronged attack.

[Gavin]

I just hope we find some resemblance of a running game (Since Edge left) to go along with passing before Im dead

[Gavin]

Im lobbying for Montee Ball next year if (and when) we get another high pick of course their are other factors involved but as it looks now Ill take him early

[shakedownstreet]

i always remember those early years with peyton, edge, & the play action fake, usually resulting in a ridiculous pass to harrison. there were some games shortly after dungy arrived where we got a slim lead early in the fourth quarter & won with ball control on the ground

manning continued to be great as our running game faded only because he kept getting better

as much as i miss those days, it's a good question though. you rarely see anyone win big games using those methods in the last few years.

but a rookie qb's best friends are protection & a run option. luck is not a seasoned manning, so this is the best blueprint to follow for now

[Captain Americolt]

i just hope we play some darn good football and win games. Dont really care what the offense is either run-heavy or pass-heavy, as long as it gets the job done. Preferably id go pass-heavy since I think huge pass plays are pretty cool to see.

[unitaswestand]

We might live in an era of passing, but it doesn't mean that is what wins Super Bowls. The one time the Colts won the Super Bowl is when they could run AND stop the run the best. SF and the Giants were arguably the most balanced teams in the NFL last year. I, personally, want Super Bowl wins. 12 win seasons and then elimination from the playoffs is still a failure.

So what I hope to see is a strong running attack and a strong run defense. If those are in place, that will setup Luck for play action passes and make the passing game work better. Just notice now much we lost on long passes once James and the stretch play were gone. I hope we run an offense similar to what Luck was going at Stanford. Not as exciting as the Manning lead Colts, but hopefully more effective in winning Super Bowls.

[Creekside]

agree with original post.........used to be the priority to run and stop the run. Now its pass and stop the pass......Colts were 2-14 last year for two basic reasons: they were terrible at passing the ball and they were terrible at defending the pass.

[Gavin]

We might live in an era of passing, but it doesn't mean that is what wins Super Bowls. The one time the Colts won the Super Bowl is when they could run AND stop the run the best. SF and the Giants were arguably the most balanced teams in the NFL last year. I, personally, want Super Bowl wins. 12 win seasons and then elimination from the playoffs is still a failure.

So what I hope to see is a strong running attack and a strong run defense. If those are in place, that will setup Luck for play action passes and make the passing game work better. Just notice now much we lost on long passes once James and the stretch play were gone. I hope we run an offense similar to what Luck was going at Stanford. Not as exciting as the Manning lead Colts, but hopefully more effective in winning Super Bowls.

the strong argument can be made the play action passing didnt work towards the end for Manning because we had no running game, and another point absolutely no one feared us on defense outside Freeny and Mathis, just block them with Tightens and the tackles and we were >>>ed, the best teams figured that out

[dgambill]

the strong argument can be made the play action passing didnt work towards the end for Manning because we had no running game, and another point absolutely no one feared us on defense outside Freeny and Mathis, just block them with Tightens and the tackles and we were >>>ed, the best teams figured that out

Almost agree fully. Teams that would chip our ends with backs and then send them out into the flat often had a lot of success against us. Agree once the threat of the run was gone it made Peytons job so much harder. I know some of Peytons worst games came against San Diego who ran a 3-4 defense and we STILL couldn't run against them. Peyton would say it was a bad matchup because they could stop our run game with just 3 down lineman leaving 8 guys to play the pass. That is why he threw so many picks against them. Give Peyton a strong running game and he would be deadly. Slow up our outside pass rush with chips by TE and backs and the qbs picked us apart...yet somehow we still managed to go 10-6 if not better. We had a great qb.

[21isSuperman]

I think Ground and Pound is the mentality NFL teams want to have ("we're tougher than you, you're going to get punched in the mouth, you can't tackle us"), but without a solid passing game, you won't get far. However, if you don't have a reliable running game to keep the defense honest and to run out the clock, you won't go very far in the playoffs either.

[dgambill]

I think Ground and Pound is the mentality NFL teams want to have ("we're tougher than you, you're going to get punched in the mouth, you can't tackle us"), but without a solid passing game, you won't get far. However, if you don't have a reliable running game to keep the defense honest and to run out the clock, you won't go very far in the playoffs either.

I think we will run the ball a little more for the next year or so and transition to more passing as Luck takes off. To me you can't win without an elite qb..but you also need a balanced team with a strong/timely defense and adequate running.

[CR91]

well think of it like this. the patriots when they had a balance attack and defense won 3 super bowls. since switching to a video game type of offense two trips zero wins

[Gavin]

Almost agree fully. Teams that would chip our ends with backs and then send them out into the flat often had a lot of success against us. Agree once the threat of the run was gone it made Peytons job so much harder. I know some of Peytons worst games came against San Diego who ran a 3-4 defense and we STILL couldn't run against them. Peyton would say it was a bad matchup because they could stop our run game with just 3 down lineman leaving 8 guys to play the pass. That is why he threw so many picks against them. Give Peyton a strong running game and he would be deadly. Slow up our outside pass rush with chips by TE and backs and the qbs picked us apart...yet somehow we still managed to go 10-6 if not better. We had a great qb.

he carried us as far as he could every year but when it came down to it Ray Lewis said it best defense wins championships ya can score as much as ya want but if ya cant stop nobody the best you can hope for is a tie

[Dtman513]

I think balance is key for this new era of the Colts. If we ground & pound, that opens up play action etc. Also, utilizing Luck's talents will be critical.

If we could have the aerial attack that Green Bay has combined with a ground game...We'd be dirty

[Gavin]

Patriots were loaded on defense at one time, Law, Bruschi, Vrabel (a young Vrabel of course) Seymour, Mcginest

[Larry Horseman]

I've been interested in this topic for a while. There's some pretty cool analysis on the subject. For example: http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_1782_The_Great_(Troll)_War.html

Both sides are valid, but I think very good to elite QB play is absolutely necessary. If ground and pound alone got it done, the Jets would have won two of the three last super bowls. The ebs and flows in the Mannimg era also point the equilibrium thats needed. Maybe another way to put it: would you rather be the 04-06 Colts, the 08-10 Colts, or the 09-11 Jets?

[Jay305]

Eli won the SB with I believe the worst running game

[bluebambi]

Eli won the SB with I believe the worst running game

Becuase Bradshaw is a joke ..

[LJpalmbeacher2]

Ground & Pound is a method for Failure in todays NFL.

The playoff win over the Ravens that someone mentioned would have been a sure Loss if the opposing QB wasn't average like Flacko.The reason the Ravens lost that game & KC the week before was they both thought they would easily run it down our throat,even though we sold out against the run and were very vulnable to the pass.

The Best Teams have the Best QBs and the best qb's out pass/score mediocore qb's.

WE WILL have one of the Best QBs in football for the next 15 years and we need to take advantage of his skills not have him handoff all day.

[Gavin]

Ground & Pound is a method for Failure in todays NFL.

The playoff win over the Ravens that someone mentioned would have been a sure Loss if the opposing QB wasn't average like Flacko.The reason the Ravens lost that game & KC the week before was they both thought they would easily run it down our throat,even though we sold out against the run and were very vulnable to the pass.

The Best Teams have the Best QBs and the best qb's out pass/score mediocore qb's.

WE WILL have one of the Best QBs in football for the next 15 years and we need to take advantage of his skills not have him handoff all day.

we need balance for the short yardage, I prefer not to see Luck step back and thrwo 40 plus times. we can be a balanced team and still have a physical running game something like 65-35 pass or 60-40 pass

[LJpalmbeacher2]

we need balance for the short yardage, I prefer not to see Luck step back and thrwo 40 plus times. we can be a balanced team and still have a physical running game something like 65-35 pass or 60-40 pass

I agree we need to be able to run when needed like short yardage and taking time off the clock.

I just don't think a run-first attitude will be successful in todays game.

[Gavin]

I agree we need to be able to run when needed like short yardage and taking time off the clock.

I just don't think a run-first attitude will be successful in todays game.

No but I also think their is a time to run first to set up play action, I know with the new rules it sure makes it easier to pass ( I hate the 5 yard rule about not being able to touch a wide receiver)

[TennEngr]

I never wanted us to "ground and pound" with Peyton Manning because he was an extremely skilled passing quarterback. However, we needed some semblance of a running game to keep the defenses honest. I can't recall the game but Peyton was calling or changing the play to run because the defense had so many DB's on the field and we still had a few problems running the ball.

No "ground and pound" but certainly need to have a RB and OL that can get a few yards every once in awhile without mis-direction; actually more than once in ahile. GO COLTS!

[Jackie Daytona]

What's with the "Old Country Boy" lol....... Manning grew up in New Orleans....

[Coltsman1788]

I just hope we find some resemblance of a running game (Since Edge left) to go along with passing before Im dead

To me this is the key to our success with Luck. We need a high caliber guy in the backfield. I don't think Donald Brown and Delone Carter are the answer long term. We probably won't get what we really need in year one but depending on how this season goes, we may be in position to try and draft one next year. As Jules said, having a viable threat in the run game is crucial. If we get that, Luck will be even more dangerous in the passing game. Couple that with a competent defense and now you have something.

[bahhummbug]

No balance you become 1 dimensional team that is not hard to defend.Would love a run game.Wouldnt even have to be great but how many passes on 3rd and short have we seen in the last 5 years:(

[Creekside]

Eli won the SB with I believe the worst running game

...............yes...pretty sure the Giants reg. season yds per carry was a league WORST at 3.5..........

[21isSuperman]

...............yes...pretty sure the Giants reg. season yds per carry was a league WORST at 3.5..........

But in the playoffs, their running game was going strong

[Jackie Daytona]

All kidding aside OP, good post.... I still feel that a strong running game and defense are key components.... CAN you win a championship without them? Sure. Do any of 32 teams, given a choice, go with a great passing game INSTEAD of Running and Defense? I don't think anyone purposely wants to go that route..... it's just easier in today's game ( rules ) to build a decent pass attack, than it is running AND Defense. That said, being decent in all 3 is a boon tough to accomplish year in year out in a salary cap league.

[buccolts]

What's with the "Old Country Boy" lol....... Manning grew up in New Orleans....

Yeah, I suppose it's his demeanor.

[Creekside]

But in the playoffs, their running game was going strong

.....but the point is you don't have to have a top 10 type running game to win the Super Bowl....but you do need a top 10 type passing game....the league has evolved that way....

[21isSuperman]

.....but the point is you don't have to have a top 10 type running game to win the Super Bowl....but you do need a top 10 type passing game....the league has evolved that way....

Actually, in the Super Bowl, both the Pats and Giants were averaging over 4 yards per carry. And without their strong running game going all throughout the playoffs, the Giants wouldn't have won. I think you need to be able to pass well more than you need to be able to run well, but you shouldn't sacrifice one for the other. Offenses work best when they can rely on both. A good running game forces the defense to stack the box and bite on play action; a good passing game will spread the defense out and make them drop back into coverage

[subvet]

You don't need a balance between run and pass, you just need the ability to do both when needed. The run game doesn't win games, the threat of a run loosens defenses and enables gamebreaking passes to happen.

The days of "grind it out ground and pound" are over, now it's an air game that goes back to the great teams in San Diego and "Air Coryell" the first to use a predominant air game instead.