my concern

[OLD FAN MAN]

On 8/18/2022 at 10:20 AM, Nickster said:

 

I agree with your last sentence for sure.  It looks like some on this thread don't realize the complexity of Oline play.

And a major caveat here is that you can't really simulate the effectiveness in the running game, as I have stated almost every time I've commented on the oline.

 

 

However NCF, our Oline has also been getting beat up quite often in 1 on 1 matchups.  It's pretty evident.  In pass pro, most and at times all 5 linemen are going to be on their own.  Our pass pro was horrendous last season, and that can be largely accounted for by injury, but it was also horrendous late in the season, and unless people are hiding injury, we were mainly healthy.  If we have to chip and keep people in to combat this, then an already underwhelming pass catching unit will be even less whelming. 

 

We don't look like a top unit right now, and if you don't see that, then we just see things differently.  

I think it's imperative to this team's success that the OLINE plays at an elite or at least near elite level since there is so much invested in it, but right now it seems fairly obvious to me anyway that we don't seem to be on that trajectory.

 

some posters on here look at our weak spots with blue glasses on while some on here face reality

[ruf]

4 hours ago, OLD FAN MAN said:

some posters on here look at our weak spots with blue glasses on while some on here face reality

true statement

[2006Coltsbestever]

19 hours ago, Nickster said:

So which Oline do you think was worse?  2018, 2019, 2020, or 2021?

 

I will patiently await your answer Kind Sir. 

Last years was worse but that still doesn't make your point mainly because Kelly and Nelson both were playing injured most of the season. Our Line was never at 100% as a unit. Hell against the Cards on X-Mas we were playing with guys that some people outside of Indianapolis never even heard of. Lets see how they play this year being healthy. The O.Line still wasn't bad though as you claim, if it was Taylor would not have sniffed 1800 yards. Taylor must be the GOAT if our O.Line was bad.

[2006Coltsbestever]

On 8/19/2022 at 9:18 AM, BeanDiasucci said:

Can you provide an example of anybody that was ready to jump off a cliff because of the loss to Buffalo or the performance against Buffalo? I think that's fiction. I can think of one extremely negative poster, but he was that way before the Buffalo game. With other people, they just express concern about particular positions based on the play in the game and somehow you see that as being ready to jump off a cliff, which is inaccurate in most cases. To me, when you say you aren't concerned about a single thing after watching that game, I don't think that's being realistic. If you think the Colts coaching staff and management isn't honestly concerned about one single thing after watching that game, I don't agree with you.

 

But it's normal to be concerned about things with your team. That doesn't mean the team is going to fail. Almost every team has weaknesses and/or issues that definitely need to be addressed and improved. Whether those weaknesses can or will be improved and how they will impact the team is uncertain. To me, saying that everything is fine no matter what because it's preseason is just burying your head in the sand.  

I disagree it is a meaningless pre-season game. If we lay an egg against Houston when it counts then your point is valid. 

[Nickster]

2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Last years was worse but that still doesn't make your point mainly because Kelly and Nelson both were playing injured most of the season. Our Line was never at 100% as a unit. Hell against the Cards on X-Mas we were playing with guys that some people outside of Indianapolis never even heard of. Lets see how they play this year being healthy. The O.Line still wasn't bad though as you claim, if it was Taylor would not have sniffed 1800 yards. Taylor must be the GOAT if our O.Line was bad.

Pass pro was horrendous.  There isn’t serious debate about that except for you I guess.

[2006Coltsbestever]

32 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Pass pro was horrendous.  There isn’t serious debate about that except for you I guess.

You are like most stat guys, that is why I can't have a fair debate with you. You don't take into account injury and a QB holding on to the ball way too long when it comes to discussions like this. You just see a number that sites like PFF come up with and assume it's all on the O.Line. Injuries and a QB holding on to the ball way too long plays a huge part in our O.Line's pass blocking. With Matt Ryan at QB our pass blocking will improve bigtime. I try to comprise with you even when I debate you but it does no good as I even said our O.Line was worse than years prior but, a huge but it isn't as bad as you say. I have said nothing that is wrong. Almost everyone one on ESPN and the NFL Channel say we have a good O.Line, I have even heard some say it is great. You know more than them so your word is king I guess  . 

[BeanDiasucci]

4 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

You are like most stat guys, that is why I can't have a fair debate with you. You don't take into account injury and a QB holding on to the ball way too long when it comes to discussions like this. You just see a number that sites like PFF come up with and assume it's all on the O.Line. Injuries and a QB holding on to the ball way too long plays a huge part in our O.Line's pass blocking. With Matt Ryan at QB our pass blocking will improve bigtime. I try to comprise with you even when I debate you but it does no good as I even said our O.Line was worse than years prior but, a huge but it isn't as bad as you say. I have said nothing that is wrong. Almost everyone one on ESPN and the NFL Channel say we have a good O.Line, I have even heard some say it is great. You know more than them so your word is king I guess  . 

Do you know how PFF works? They have analysts grade the players on every play and that does take into account what other players on the field are doing, including how long the qb holds the ball. They had the Colts oline rated 30th last season in pass protection. 

[BeanDiasucci]

6 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I disagree it is a meaningless pre-season game. If we lay an egg against Houston when it counts then your point is valid. 

I'm curious - when a Colts player lines up against NFL players in the preseason and does extremely well, is that also meaningless? Would you say the team should ignore that in making personnel decisions?

[NewColtsFan]

10 minutes ago, BeanDiasucci said:

Do you know how PFF works? They have analysts grade the players on every play and that does take into account what other players on the field are doing, including how long the qb holds the ball. They had the Colts oline rated 30th last season in pass protection. 

And that was last year.   2021.

 

But I believe the Colts were top-10 in pass blocking in 2018, 19, 20.   Last year was an exception due to injuries at 4 of the 5 spots. 

[Solid84]

34 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

And that was last year.   2021.

 

But I believe the Colts were top-10 in pass blocking in 2018, 19, 20.   Last year was an exception due to injuries at 4 of the 5 spots. 

We have two new starters who were backups last year. It's easily as unreasonable to expect our Oline to be elite this year, based on performance in '18, 19' and '20, as it is to expect a repeat of last years performance wise.

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Solid84 said:

We have two new starters who were backups last year. It's easily as unreasonable to expect our Oline to be elite this year, based on performance in '18, 19' and '20, as it is to expect a repeat of last years performance wise.

I don’t expect to be elite.   But I don’t expect to be ranked 30th.   Look at the post I was responding to.   
 

Too many posters think we’re going to be bad this year simply because we were bad last year.   That’s their mind set. 
 

I don’t expect to be great, but I’d like to think we will start out as average and get better over the course of the season.  

[Solid84]

6 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I don’t expect to be elite.   But I don’t expect to be ranked 30th.   Look at the post I was responding to.   
 

Too many posters think we’re going to be bad this year simply because we were bad last year.   That’s their mind set. 
 

I don’t expect to be great, but I’d like to think we will start out as average and get better over the course of the season.  

Your goto response to those posts has generally been injuries and we were great-elite in '18-'20.

 

My point is we have little idea how it's going to go this year. The only thing we have to go by right now is TC and preseason games. Neither has been promising. I know it takes time for the Oline to gel, but we have 5 division games in the first 7 weeks. We can't wait to midseason for this unit to gel.

 

I'm watching Steelers-Jags right now. Jags Dline looks READY. They will eat us - AGAIN - if we have a slow start.

[NewColtsFan]

16 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

Your goto response to those posts has generally been injuries and we were great-elite in '18-'20.

 

My point is we have little idea how it's going to go this year. The only thing we have to go by right now is TC and preseason games. Neither has been promising. I know it takes time for the Oline to gel, but we have 5 division games in the first 7 weeks. We can't wait to midseason for this unit to gel.

 

I'm watching Steelers-Jags right now. Jags Dline looks READY. They will eat us - AGAIN - if we have a slow start.

The fans may have little idea, but I’m thinking the coaches and scouts have a much, much better idea.   I put my trust in them.   I try not to worry over things that haven’t happened yet.  
 

As to my go-to response, do you think there’s a flaw there?    We were a very good OL, borderline elite for three straight years and suddenly we weren’t.   And it happened when 4 of our 5 OL were badly hurt plus Covid.  I don’t think that’s a coincidence. 
 

 

[Solid84]

1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

The fans may have little idea, but I’m thinking the coaches and scouts have a much, much better idea.   I put my trust in them.   I try not to worry over things that haven’t happened yet.  
 

As to my go-to response, do you think there’s a flaw there?    We were a very good OL, borderline elite for three straight years and suddenly we weren’t.   And it happened when 4 of our 5 OL were badly hurt plus Covid.  I don’t think that’s a coincidence. 
 

 

All we have to go by is TC and preseason games. Does that tell the full story? No, of course not. But the forums are also for discussing what WE see, not just what we think the coaches see.

 

I absolutely think last years performance was due to injury, but the players on the Oline aren't the same as in '18-'20, thus we don't really know how it will turn out. It could be a '20 refresh but could just as well be '21 all over again performance wise.

[ruf]

12 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

All we have to go by is TC and preseason games. Does that tell the full story? No, of course not. But the forums are also for discussing what WE see, not just what we think the coaches see.

 

I absolutely think last years performance was due to injury, but the players on the Oline aren't the same as in '18-'20, thus we don't really know how it will turn out. It could be a '20 refresh but could just as well be '21 all over again performance wise.

it will be what we see it is. it may be worst that 2021. we had two starters today in the game against backups and could not run the ball.

there is something wrong and in my next post i will say what we need to do to fix it so that we will not get off to a slow start and have the jags eat our lunch which they will in the 2nd game if things remain the same

[ruf]

26 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

The fans may have little idea, but I’m thinking the coaches and scouts have a much, much better idea.   I put my trust in them.   I try not to worry over things that haven’t happened yet.  
 

As to my go-to response, do you think there’s a flaw there?    We were a very good OL, borderline elite for three straight years and suddenly we weren’t.   And it happened when 4 of our 5 OL were badly hurt plus Covid.  I don’t think that’s a coincidence. 
 

 

unless we make changes now and not wait to see it play out in the first few games (which can be a couple of L's) here is what we should do:

we're going to pay Q so put him at LT and move Pryor to RT move Smith to RG and keep Kelley at C then we take the next best for lineman to play LG so i'm thinking Fries or maybe even the rookie or the other Kelley.

 

so the oline looks like Q-Fries-Kelley-Smith-Pryor

[NewColtsFan]

1 minute ago, ruf said:

unless we make changes now and not wait to see it play out in the first few games (which can be a couple of L's) here is what we should do:

we're going to pay Q so put him at LT and move Pryor to RT move Smith to RG and keep Kelley at C then we take the next best for lineman to play LG so i'm thinking Fries or maybe even the rookie or the other Kelley.

 

so the oline looks like Q-Fries-Kelley-Smith-Pryor

When you make changes like that on the off-season you do that at the start of the off-season, not the end.   This move would’ve happened starting in April and May, not mid-August.  The ship you want us on sailed a long time ago….  Sorry. 

[NewColtsFan]

24 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

All we have to go by is TC and preseason games. Does that tell the full story? No, of course not. But the forums are also for discussing what WE see, not just what we think the coaches see.

 

I absolutely think last years performance was due to injury, but the players on the Oline aren't the same as in '18-'20, thus we don't really know how it will turn out. It could be a '20 refresh but could just as well be '21 all over again performance wise.

Again….   I’m not expecting a repeat of 20 or 21.    I’m expecting somewhere in the middle. 
 

Better than 21, but not as good as 20.   I’m not thrilled by that, but it can still be good enough to win with. 

[Nickster]

5 hours ago, BeanDiasucci said:

Do you know how PFF works? They have analysts grade the players on every play and that does take into account what other players on the field are doing, including how long the qb holds the ball. They had the Colts oline rated 30th last season in pass protection. 

I’m pretty,sure he doesn’t lol.

 

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I don’t expect to be elite.   But I don’t expect to be ranked 30th.   Look at the post I was responding to.   
 

Too many posters think we’re going to be bad this year simply because we were bad last year.   That’s their mind set. 
 

I don’t expect to be great, but I’d like to think we will start out as average and get better over the course of the season.  

I’d be happy with top half pass pro, but just pointing out that that would not seem to meet the value of the capital allocation.

[NewColtsFan]

9 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I’m pretty,sure he doesn’t lol.

 

I’d be happy with top half pass pro, but just pointing out that that would not seem to meet the value of the capital allocation.

 I understand….   I think the key is how much better do we get over the course of the season?   And then, in 23 or 24,  what happens to the Oline?   At what point do we move on from Kelly, move Pinter to C, and then how does the line play as the young players hopefully get better with time and experience?   

[GoColts8818]

On 8/19/2022 at 6:06 PM, OLD FAN MAN said:

some posters on here look at our weak spots with blue glasses on while some on here face reality

This true but so is the reverse in that some only look for problems and then over hype them to make them seem worse than they are.  I think the truth is probably some where in the middle in most cases.  I do think the line will be pretty good but I also think they are feeling the loss of AC and you don’t lose a guy like that and not have a major impact on the unit as whole.  

[GoColts8818]

3 hours ago, ruf said:

unless we make changes now and not wait to see it play out in the first few games (which can be a couple of L's) here is what we should do:

we're going to pay Q so put him at LT and move Pryor to RT move Smith to RG and keep Kelley at C then we take the next best for lineman to play LG so i'm thinking Fries or maybe even the rookie or the other Kelley.

 

so the oline looks like Q-Fries-Kelley-Smith-Pryor

They have made it clear they aren’t moving Q from LG.  Fans don’t have to like it but they need to accept it.

[CR91]

If we lose to the Texans, then be concerned.

[2006Coltsbestever]

16 hours ago, BeanDiasucci said:

I'm curious - when a Colts player lines up against NFL players in the preseason and does extremely well, is that also meaningless? Would you say the team should ignore that in making personnel decisions?

I could care less about pre-season. If we won 38-0 over the Rams in pre-season I wouldn't say much. Pre-season is just meaningless to me, glad the guys are out there and football is fun to watch but the games don't mean much. I watched 1 Qtr of yesterday's game and then I went to bed because I work nights. I didn't even know the outcome until like 10 o'clock last night.

[2006Coltsbestever]

16 hours ago, BeanDiasucci said:

Do you know how PFF works? They have analysts grade the players on every play and that does take into account what other players on the field are doing, including how long the qb holds the ball. They had the Colts oline rated 30th last season in pass protection. 

I know how PFF works, I used PFF as an example because many love it in here. I could've used other measures as an example. You made my point, PFF doesn't factor in things like a QB holding on to the ball way too long or if a player was playing injured, which is why to say if a certain measure has us ranked 30th, that isn't always accurate. You don't think a player playing injured would affect his play?

[2006Coltsbestever]

11 hours ago, Nickster said:

I’m pretty,sure he doesn’t lol.

 

I’d be happy with top half pass pro, but just pointing out that that would not seem to meet the value of the capital allocation.

I am pretty sure I do  

[Nickster]

10 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 I understand….   I think the key is how much better do we get over the course of the season?   And then, in 23 or 24,  what happens to the Oline?   At what point do we move on from Kelly, move Pinter to C, and then how does the line play as the young players hopefully get better with time and experience?   

Kelly’s dead cap plummets next year so unless he some how improves, this is likely to be his last year.  

[BeanDiasucci]

47 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I could care less about pre-season. If we won 38-0 over the Rams in pre-season I wouldn't say much. Pre-season is just meaningless to me, glad the guys are out there and football is fun to watch but the games don't mean much. I watched 1 Qtr of yesterday's game and then I went to bed because I work nights. I didn't even know the outcome until like 10 o'clock last night.

Here's a deep thought for you - just because something is meaningless to you, that doesn't make that thing meaningless.  Just because preseason doesn't matter to you doesn't mean preseason doesn't matter. I asked you about whether the preseason is meaningless to the Colts coaches as management as they make personnel decisions. Your response doesn't address that question.

 

If preseason is meaningful to coaches and management in making personnel decisions, doesn't that mean preseason can also be meaningful to fans in evaluating individual players? And if you can evaluate individual players, isn't it also possible to make some evaluations on the potential strengths and weaknesses of position groups, and positions that may be in need of improvement?

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, BeanDiasucci said:

Here's a deep thought for you - just because something is meaningless to you, that doesn't make that thing meaningless.  Just because preseason doesn't matter to you doesn't mean preseason doesn't matter. I asked you about whether the preseason is meaningless to the Colts coaches as management as they make personnel decisions. Your response doesn't address that question.

 

If preseason is meaningful to coaches and management in making personnel decisions, doesn't that mean preseason can also be meaningful to fans in evaluating individual players? And if you can evaluate individual players, isn't it also possible to make some evaluations on the potential strengths and weaknesses of position groups, and positions that may be in need of improvement?

I am sure pre-season means a lot to players trying to make the team and coaches care about it, but from a win/loss standpoint it doesn't matter. I doubt Frank is upset we lost yesterday, he is more concerned with how we played I am sure. I could be wrong.

[ruf]

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am sure pre-season means a lot to players trying to make the team and coaches care about it, but from a win/loss standpoint it doesn't matter. I doubt Frank is upset we lost yesterday, he is more concerned with how we played I am sure. I could be wrong.

hear is what he is trying to tell you that there is a weakness in certain positions in this case on the Oline.

it will not go away when the season starts. i'm thinking the more weak spot is RG that will disrupt any plays we run either passing or running the ball

[ruf]

14 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

When you make changes like that on the off-season you do that at the start of the off-season, not the end.   This move would’ve happened starting in April and May, not mid-August.  The ship you want us on sailed a long time ago….  Sorry. 

very wrong. we can see the problem now so we either make changes now or after our 1 and 4 start we will be forced to make them 

we may win the first game with what we have now but we will not beat the jags with this Oline. I hope i'm wrong but they will do the same thing they did to us last year and of course the excuse would be they just need time to gel together

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, ruf said:

hear is what he is trying to tell you that there is a weakness in certain positions in this case on the Oline.

it will not go away when the season starts. i'm thinking the more weak spot is RG that will disrupt any plays we run either passing or running the ball

The only position that worries me is LT, we just need Pryor to be at least average and we can get by, last season our LT play was bad I will admit. Nelson wasn't 100% (he plays left side) neither was Kelly so that hurt us bigtime - that it is what I have been trying preach over and over in here but a few won't listen. When a player is playing injured he obviously is not going to be near effective.

[CoachLite]

31 minutes ago, ruf said:

hear is what he is trying to tell you that there is a weakness in certain positions in this case on the Oline.

it will not go away when the season starts. i'm thinking the more weak spot is RG that will disrupt any plays we run either passing or running the ball

As a viewer, watching the game, I'm not sure we can tell what is a strength and what is a weakness. It seems the O- and D-line players have problems shedding and avoiding blocks. That may point to a coaching problem, or lack of coordinated player techniques. It may be they just don't want to show how strong we are. What we don't know fills volumes. Hopefully, Chris, Frank and the other coaches are on top of this. If they aren't, then be concerned.

[RollerColt]

33 minutes ago, ruf said:

very wrong. we can see the problem now so we either make changes now or after our 1 and 4 start we will be forced to make them 

we may win the first game with what we have now but we will not beat the jags with this Oline. I hope i'm wrong but they will do the same thing they did to us last year and of course the excuse would be they just need time to gel together

https://coltswire.usatoday.com/2022/01/14/indianapolis-colts-quenton-nelson-left-tackle-contract-extension/
 

Ballard disagrees with you. And since he’s the one in charge, right or wrong, this isn’t going to happen. 

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, ruf said:

very wrong. we can see the problem now so we either make changes now or after our 1 and 4 start we will be forced to make them 

we may win the first game with what we have now but we will not beat the jags with this Oline. I hope i'm wrong but they will do the same thing they did to us last year and of course the excuse would be they just need time to gel together

Sorry….    It’s not happening.   Ballard addressed this in January at his year end new conference.    And he’s addressed this with both every move he’s made and not made.   
 

Be prepared for disappointment.   I have no idea why you even persist.   Baring a series of injuries and other major developments,  what you want is simply not happening.  

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, Nickster said:

Kelly’s dead cap plummets next year so unless he some how improves, this is likely to be his last year.  

I think you might be right, but I wouldn’t bet much on it.  His cap hit may plummet but it’s not inconsiderable.   It’s still $4.5 mill.   Ballard rarely if ever has cut someone with a number that high.   Not saying he won’t,  just saying his history says it’s unlikely.

 

And I wouldn’t rule out that Kelly has a bounce-back year.  Stranger things have happened.   And right now, the Pinter fan club isn’t exactly overflowing….

[Nickster]

38 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I think you might be right, but I wouldn’t bet much on it.  His cap hit may plummet but it’s not inconsiderable.   It’s still $4.5 mill.   Ballard rarely if ever has cut someone with a number that high.   Not saying he won’t,  just saying his history says it’s unlikely.

 

And I wouldn’t rule out that Kelly has a bounce-back year.  Stranger things have happened.   And right now, the Pinter fan club isn’t exactly overflowing….

That’s definitely true so on sport trac it says that Kelly is due to make 10.1 mil in salary and bonuses next year if he’s kept on with 4.5 in dead cap.  This year he is making 7 mill in salary and bonuses with 10.7 in deadwood.  So this year it would have cost 10.7 for him not to be a player and next year it would cost 10.1 plus to be a player.  
 

I would think he’d have to improve dramatically this year for that to make sense.  That doesn’t seem likely.  But it might happen.  Hope so.  If he plays at that level this year it’s going to be a tremendous asset to the team.

[ruf]

46 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Sorry….    It’s not happening.   Ballard addressed this in January at his year end new conference.    And he’s addressed this with both every move he’s made and not made.   
 

Be prepared for disappointment.   I have no idea why you even persist.   Baring a series of injuries and other major developments,  what you want is simply not happening.  

for example they had a set plan last year at qb. how did that work out for them? those set plans can not always be the best choices and you need to realize it early. if he don't change Q to LT he should at least take care of RG by not being dead set to start Pinter, he should start now with trying Fries at RG. and mark my word it's going to be painful when we play the jags

[ruf]

45 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I think you might be right, but I wouldn’t bet much on it.  His cap hit may plummet but it’s not inconsiderable.   It’s still $4.5 mill.   Ballard rarely if ever has cut someone with a number that high.   Not saying he won’t,  just saying his history says it’s unlikely.

 

And I wouldn’t rule out that Kelly has a bounce-back year.  Stranger things have happened.   And right now, the Pinter fan club isn’t exactly overflowing….

this i think your right about i think we should keep Kelly there is a good chance he will play well this year

[Nickster]

8 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am pretty sure I do  

Then I guess you know a guy can give up a sack and still get a plus grade right?  If the qb holds on too long?

 

most likely the pff grades are at the least roughly accurate.

Our pass pro stunk.  It didn’t matter who was Qbing.  They stunk up the joint.