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Wentz Was Good v. Jax in Week 18


Nickster
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17 minutes ago, Nickster said:

My son and I went back and watched the cut ups. First time I could watch it. The line was godawful and the receivers weren’t good. He made some great plays that game if you watch it without emotion.

 

he made some really good throws.  He got scapegoated.  It doesn’t bother me he’s gone, but the level of his play was top 10 this year and there is no guarantee that Ryan will be better.

 

About the only thing to fault him for was the fumble but not it wasn’t a terrible play by Carson.

You must be desperate for attention today. Hope my response helps.

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19 minutes ago, Nickster said:

My son and I went back and watched the cut ups. First time I could watch it. The line was godawful and the receivers weren’t good. He made some great plays that game if you watch it without emotion.

 

he made some really good throws.  He got scapegoated.  It doesn’t bother me he’s gone, but the level of his play was top 10 this year and there is no guarantee that Ryan will be better.

 

About the only thing to fault him for was the fumble but not it wasn’t a terrible play by Carson.

The team can see all the times he failed to adjust to what the defense was doing. We dont see that stuff when we watch tape as fans.

 

They know his pre snap reads and the adjustments on specific plays. So we dont see when he misses those opportunities. They might install a specific adjustment to a certain coverage for a game and we have no idea what the team wanted him to do situationally. 

 

Also, I believe someone ready broke down the tape from this game and showed how he repeatedly refused to check the ball down to Taylor,  so I dont think you can say a guy played well if hes consistently missing your best offensive player, wide open, in space. 

 

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53 minutes ago, Nickster said:

My son and I went back and watched the cut ups. First time I could watch it. The line was godawful and the receivers weren’t good. He made some great plays that game if you watch it without emotion.

 

he made some really good throws.  He got scapegoated.  It doesn’t bother me he’s gone, but the level of his play was top 10 this year and there is no guarantee that Ryan will be better.

 

About the only thing to fault him for was the fumble but not it wasn’t a terrible play by Carson.


no offense, but I’m going to go with Kurt Warner on this one

 

 

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14 minutes ago, smittywerb said:


no offense, but I’m going to go with Kurt Warner on this one

 

 

If you just watch that video and you listen to how Kurt breaks that down......a fan couldnt possibly understand just by watching film.  They just lack the perspective he provides on each play.

 

He knows the play, the coverage, the reads, the adjustments and the protection. 

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48 minutes ago, Goatface Killah said:

If you just watch that video and you listen to how Kurt breaks that down......a fan couldnt possibly understand just by watching film.  They just lack the perspective he provides on each play.

 

He knows the play, the coverage, the reads, the adjustments and the protection. 

Watch the film and judge for yourself.  I will bet You will see something different. Kurt does not know the play or the reads and he said so about 3 times in the film.  On three of the 6 plays he showed, the pass rusher sheds the blocker and comes in free 3 times and Carson is evading the rush when Kurt is saying he should throw the ball.  That changes things.  On the 3rd and 20 on the int, Pittman has to catch that ball it’s not a perfect throw but it’s good enough.
 

I don’t want the guy.  But he was scapegoated on this game.  Terrible protection poor receivers.

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The line shared a large part in that failure of a game, and Wentz didn’t do them any favors by trying the same thing over and over. It’s like he was refusing to take any possible check down, going for the hero throw every snap. As a leader he needed to adapt to the situation, but he was lost on what to do against the defense. 
 

Carson absolutely has a talented arm, but he can’t seem to process information fast enough when facing adversity. 

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20 minutes ago, Superman said:

The INT is on Pittman. Great read. It was 3rd and 20 and it wasn’t perfect but Pittman stumbles under the ball. You have to catch that ball good enough throw.

 

I watched Warner’s film and 3 out of the 6 or 7 plays there is a free runner in the pass rush.  Then the throw to Pittman has to be caught.  I wish there was a film breakdown that focused int the oline.  They were dismal.  Carson was not the issue that game.

 

 

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If you were at that game like I was, you would have been counting the seconds that felt like minutes of Carson holding on to the ball way too long. After seeing the breakdown from Warner, it just validated his poor quarterback play. Taylor could have had at least 5 first down catches by using his check down reads! 
It was the worst loss that I can remember and I have only seen these replays since that infamous day. The only way I would watch the entire game would be at high speed with the Benny Goodman song playing as it was terrible. 
Oh well, time to move on and you bet I will be in Jacksonville the second game of the year for some old fashioned Peyback!!!

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8 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

The line shared a large part in that failure of a game, and Wentz didn’t do them any favors by trying the same thing over and over. It’s like he was refusing to take any possible check down, going for the hero throw every snap. As a leader he needed to adapt to the situation, but he was lost on what to do against the defense. 
 

Carson absolutely has a talented arm, but he can’t seem to process information fast enough when facing adversity. 

Yeah I’m glad he’s gone.  But he was scapegoated v. jags.  I just think people who think We are instantly going to be better with Ryan are setting up themselves for disappointment.  I the line plays like that it’s probably going to be worse.  Ryan has always thrown more Intsand Wentz escapes danger pretty well.

 

There are lots of things Wentz did that i hated, but that game was not on him IMO.  You’ve got to call down and distance too.  Sure Carson needed to check down more but in that game most of those plays Kurt showed were 3rd and long and the check downs are worthless.

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1 minute ago, Nickster said:

Yeah I’m glad he’s gone.  But he was scapegoated v. jags.  I just think people who think We are instantly going to be better with Ryan are setting up themselves for disappointment.  I the line plays like that it’s probably going to be worse.  Ryan has always thrown more Intsand Wentz escapes danger pretty well.

 

There are lots of things Wentz did that i hated, but that game was not on him IMO.  You’ve got to call down and distance too.  Sure Carson needed to check down more but in that game most of those plays Kurt showed were 3rd and long and the check downs are worthless.

It was a full team (lack of) effort. 

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Cracking Up Lol GIF
 

Yeah, passing up dumps and check downs to Taylor with no one even in the same zip code with him to heave it downfield into triple coverage was great. I can’t wait to watch Matt Ryan do that this season. 

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Here’s another article suggesting that his actual play wasn’t the determining factor.

 

https://larrybrownsports.com/football/unflattering-report-carson-wentz-poor-leader-colts/593132

 

my point is not to support CW, we weren’t going to improve with the dude. Point is there is a lot more ugly than CW v Jags and he was a convenient scapegoat since apparently no one liked him any way.

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Nickster said:

The INT is on Pittman. Great read. It was 3rd and 20 and it wasn’t perfect but Pittman stumbles under the ball. You have to catch that ball good enough throw.

 

I watched Warner’s film and 3 out of the 6 or 7 plays there is a free runner in the pass rush.  Then the throw to Pittman has to be caught.  I wish there was a film breakdown that focused int the oline.  They were dismal.  Carson was not the issue that game.

 

 

Its Carsons job to know about the free rusher and make the appropriate read.

 

Also, On Warners film breakdown he actually laid the reads out for you. He couldve been wrong here or there, but he absolutely has an idea of what the reads are.

 

I have watched that gamenseveral times and never came away from it thinking Wentz played well.

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2 minutes ago, Goatface Killah said:

Its Carsons job to know about the free rusher and make the appropriate read.

 

Also, On Warners film breakdown he actually laid the reads out for you. He couldve been wrong here or there, but he absolutely has an idea of what the reads are.

 

I have watched that gamenseveral times and never came away from it thinking Wentz played well.

I only watched it the once, and my impression is that CW was not the Colts issue.  Pittmans got to catch that 3rd and 20 int.  Campbell could have caught the desperation heave that actually landed right in his hands.  the runnnung game was ineffective and put the Colts in bad situations.  This game was mostly on the oline.  They were just terrible and guys got to make plays when they have a chance,

dude there is no hot read on a 4 man rush.  

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22 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I only watched it the once, and my impression is that CW was not the Colts issue.  Pittmans got to catch that 3rd and 20 int.  Campbell could have caught the desperation heave that actually landed right in his hands.  the runnnung game was ineffective and put the Colts in bad situations.  This game was mostly on the oline.  They were just terrible and guys got to make plays when they have a chance,

dude there is no hot read on a 4 man rush.  

Ryan will check out of bad plays.  

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3 hours ago, smittywerb said:


no offense, but I’m going to go with Kurt Warner on this one

 

 

Kurt absolutely torched Wentz.

 

"A qb at his level shouldn't be making these mistakes"

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30 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Ryan will check out of bad plays.  

We will see.  The fan forum and some dude in a hat will say we should just run every time lol.  
 

my point is this team got pretty good QB play overall last season, top 10 or 12.  All the numbers show this and it’s not really statistically arguable, and when you consider the * poor pass protection and extremely limited pass catcher talent, we might have a situation where we are laying a bit too much of the blame on one dude.   

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1 hour ago, Nickster said:

We will see.  The fan forum and some dude in a hat will say we should just run every time lol.  
 

my point is this team got pretty good QB play overall last season, top 10 or 12.  All the numbers show this and it’s not really statistically arguable, and when you consider the * poor pass protection and extremely limited pass catcher talent, we might have a situation where we are laying a bit too much of the blame on one dude.   

 

 So the Warner piece was over you and Wentz's head. 
Stats! Stats! You are talkin stats?
 The tape shows Wentz to be stupid. Starting with FB 101.
  Wentz was fired Again, for being a big armed, dunce.

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13 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 So the Warner piece was over you and Wentz's head. 
Stats! Stats! You are talkin stats?
 The tape shows Wentz to be stupid. Starting with FB 101.
  Wentz was fired Again, for being a big armed, dunce.

I think Wentz was fired for other reasons and that he was conveniently scapegoated for other reasons.  He’s not well liked or respected apparently.  Which is important at the qb position.  But he wasn’t bad overall IMO v the JAx.  There wasn’t a player on O who played better than he did that i could see.

 

Warners video is good and interesting but it doesn’t tell the whole story of the game and Warner says as much.  That game was a nightmare for a QB.  Ineffective pass catchers, a horrendous o line performance, and an ineffective running attack that game.

 

Wentz took too much of the blame for that loss.  He was not the problem overall.
 

And BTW as I’ve said, I’m glad we moved on from him, but I don’t necessarily expect magic from Ryan, especially in the LT isn’t good enough.   

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I think nick is bored. Not only did Wentz play badly at Jack's, he stunk it up vs the Raiders as well. Stats aren't everything, he simply doesn't have a hi football IQ. He has trouble checking into the right play and can't read defenses at crucial times. The Tennessee game is another good example of that. Bad ints at the end, etc.  Even in our win vs the Patriots he played lousy. We won that because of defense and Taylor. I am glad training camp is here now so we can put last year's nightmare behind us.

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7 hours ago, Nickster said:

Yeah I’m glad he’s gone.  But he was scapegoated v. jags.  I just think people who think We are instantly going to be better with Ryan are setting up themselves for disappointment.  I the line plays like that it’s probably going to be worse.  Ryan has always thrown more Intsand Wentz escapes danger pretty well.

 

There are lots of things Wentz did that i hated, but that game was not on him IMO.  You’ve got to call down and distance too.  Sure Carson needed to check down more but in that game most of those plays Kurt showed were 3rd and long and the check downs are worthless.

 

I agree Wentz was scapegoated and even mentioned that he would be around week 4 or so when irsay was openly criticizing him and a few posters also seen this was possibly coming. 

Someone said here after the jag game, it may have been Supe?, that no QB for us in that game could have led us to victory because of the poor play from everyone including the coaching staff. 

 

However, scapegoat?  yeah probably, but still very glad he's gone. 

How Matty ice works out remains to be seen but I'll say the colts should be better off with Ryan for next year or two. 

 

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11 hours ago, Nickster said:

My son and I went back and watched the cut ups. First time I could watch it. The line was godawful and the receivers weren’t good. He made some great plays that game if you watch it without emotion.

 

he made some really good throws.  He got scapegoated.  It doesn’t bother me he’s gone, but the level of his play was top 10 this year and there is no guarantee that Ryan will be better.

 

About the only thing to fault him for was the fumble but not it wasn’t a terrible play by Carson.

Colts lost that game in the trenches for sure.  I agree the QB was not the issue in that game, at least not when you consider that he was a known reclamation project when they traded for him.  Also watch that last episode of Hard Knocks from last season and Frank did not seem down on him, and if he did I guess I need to buy more expensive scotch.

 

Irsay hated his guts I think.  No proof on that or anything just my read on it.  And he's the owner so that's a wrap.

 

Where Ryan will be better is the basics.  Getting the team out of the huddle with the play in their heads quickly.  Managing the players through the game.  Reading quickly and distributing the ball on time, which is absolutely critical in this offense.  The drawback is teams will have areas of the field they consider his passes to be low percentage, which will shrink it a bit.  He's never been a guy with a great arm and age hasn't helped that.

 

He'll have a great run game but he won't have great receivers.  So he should have a good but not great season statistically but with a lot of wins.  Get Indy a playoff win and go from there.  To win 4 games in a row vs the best teams in the league you need a little luck and your defense playing well.  Colts offense should be consistent and dependable, certainly above average, but if they can field a top defense all of a sudden they look like a ball control playoff team and you can win rings like that.

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Wentz didn’t play defense.  He also didn’t set up a scheme to give their receivers 14 yard cushions on 3rd and 10.  
 

Plenty of blame on both sides of the ball and from the sidelines.  
 

I’ll give @Nickster credit though.  Not only couldn’t I watch that Hindenburg again, I couldn’t even watch Hard Knocks.   
 

Worst. Colts. Loss. Ever.  

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11 hours ago, Nickster said:

I only watched it the once, and my impression is that CW was not the Colts issue.  Pittmans got to catch that 3rd and 20 int.  Campbell could have caught the desperation heave that actually landed right in his hands.  the runnnung game was ineffective and put the Colts in bad situations.  This game was mostly on the oline.  They were just terrible and guys got to make plays when they have a chance,

dude there is no hot read on a 4 man rush.  

YOU used the term "free runner" in the post I responded to, which is why I said it is Carsons job to know he is coming. I wasnt sure which play you were talking about.

 

I think its fairly obvious last year that Carson was very inconsistent. So when you say "he played well" that isnt entirely accurate. He did, at times, and there were times he was god awful. 

 

I think the Colts hope is that Matt Ryan will be more consistent and play smarter football. That should allow the Colts offense to put up more points as well as keep the defense fresh and off the field. I think they also believe he will avoid the game losing mistakes Carson made against teams like the Rams and Titans.

 

The Colts dont look at the stat sheet at the end if the season to determine whether his play was good enough or not. They watch the film and decide that. Obviously they didnt like what they seen and felt his stats shouldve been much better.

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Nickster said:

Here’s another article suggesting that his actual play wasn’t the determining factor.

 

https://larrybrownsports.com/football/unflattering-report-carson-wentz-poor-leader-colts/593132

 

my point is not to support CW, we weren’t going to improve with the dude. Point is there is a lot more ugly than CW v Jags and he was a convenient scapegoat since apparently no one liked him any way.

 

 

Nobody is using that game as a sole scapegoat as to why Wentz was shipped.  I would look to 3/4 games before that (Excluding ARIZONA even through he was crap for 3/4 of that game too) as the reason, and the fact that he made too many dumb plays to count. Hell, even some of his best plays like the TD to Pittman vs SF (Should have been picked) were lucky.  I refer to the JAGS game to end the season as unequivocally the straw that broke the camels back as opposed to the sole reason that Wentz was let go.   

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1 hour ago, Smonroe said:

Wentz didn’t play defense.  He also didn’t set up a scheme to give their receivers 14 yard cushions on 3rd and 10.  
 

Plenty of blame on both sides of the ball and from the sidelines.  
 

I’ll give @Nickster credit though.  Not only couldn’t I watch that Hindenburg again, I couldn’t even watch Hard Knocks.   
 

Worst. Colts. Loss. Ever.  

Then again it could've been the best loss ever. Reason being is, it allowed us to get rid of Wentz and trade for Matt Ryan. Lets be honest, Wentz wasn't going to bring us a SB win, after watching the last 2 games I think even the average fan could see it. I could see Matt Ryan doing it if a lot of things fall right. Ryan may be 37 but he is 100% healthy and he has even said he feels like he can play 3 more years. The WR room is average to above average but he will be playing with a good O.Line and 2 lethal RB's in Taylor and Hines. Matt is very good at check downs and reading defenses, during that Jacksonsville game Taylor was wide open on at least 3 plays I remember with a lot of field in front of him. Instead Wentz decides to throw it 20 yards downfield into traffic. 

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14 hours ago, Nickster said:

Watch the film and judge for yourself.  I will bet You will see something different. Kurt does not know the play or the reads and he said so about 3 times in the film.  On three of the 6 plays he showed, the pass rusher sheds the blocker and comes in free 3 times and Carson is evading the rush when Kurt is saying he should throw the ball.  That changes things.  On the 3rd and 20 on the int, Pittman has to catch that ball it’s not a perfect throw but it’s good enough.
 

I don’t want the guy.  But he was scapegoated on this game.  Terrible protection poor receivers.

Exactly correct! 

 

I noticed the first time I watched the film...when it came out a few days after Jax, that Warner repeatedly ignored the pass rush.  He mentions only about once or twice about Wentz not having enough time, when it was obvious...as you point out...that Wentz was already trying to avoid the rush when Warner says he should be planting to throw many more times, which Warner ignored.  

 

Warner was the quickest thinking QB in history, and I think this tape was more about Kurt Warner showing the audience how smart Kurt Warner is and used Wentz as a tool for that goal.  Kurt's got a podcast to sell ya know.

 

Having said all of this, I don't see a reason why Wentz could not have checked down frequently.  Should have seen the pattern of his Iine failing him and immediately looked for JT instead of always focused on down the field.  He didn't make the layups.

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2 hours ago, Smonroe said:

Wentz didn’t play defense.  He also didn’t set up a scheme to give their receivers 14 yard cushions on 3rd and 10.  

Angry Wrestling GIF

 

Why did you have to bring that up again?? The most painful thing in football is watching the other team convert 3rd and long after 3rd and long. And just staring at the screen knowing we're gonna give each WR cushion. Now if Carson was on the Jags he would've forced the home run ball when we were giving them the sticks every. GD. time

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35 minutes ago, Myles said:

I put the loss on Reich, not Wentz.   The coach is supposed to have the team ready to play and he failed miserably at that.   

While your statement saying "coach is supposed to have the team ready" is right, then again had Peyton or Luck been our QB in a regular season game = win or go home against a bad team, they would not have lost that game. As of matter of fact, I think we would have beat the Raiders with Peyton or Luck and had it clinched before the Jacks game. I am not buying it is all on Reich, Reich has had us ready in plenty of games but if the QB plays like horse dung, not much he could do. Do you think Belichick had the Patriots ready at Buffalo in the WildCard game? I do, but Mac Jones played terribly in a 47-10 loss. 

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30 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

While your statement saying "coach is supposed to have the team ready" is right, then again had Peyton or Luck been our QB in a regular season game = win or go home against a bad team, they would not have lost that game. As of matter of fact, I think we would have beat the Raiders with Peyton or Luck and had it clinched before the Jacks game. I am not buying it is all on Reich, Reich has had us ready in plenty of games but if the QB plays like horse dung, not much he could do. Do you think Belichick had the Patriots ready at Buffalo in the WildCard game? I do, but Mac Jones played terribly in a 47-10 loss. 

Reich didn't coach Manning and didn't coach Luck much.   The team was flat everywhere on the field.  That is the head coach not doing his job.   The defense was crap in many ways and Wentz does not play defense.  Even with it being partially Wentz' fault, that falls on Reich too.  He wanted Wentz as the Colts QB and then managed to not be able to control him.  Man up Reich, after 16 games, if you cannot control your QB it is on you.     

 

I don't think expecting your QB to be Manning or Luch is going to work.  We may not see that with Ryan.  (although a better chance than Wentz).

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3 minutes ago, Myles said:

Reich didn't coach Manning and didn't coach Luck much.   The team was flat everywhere on the field.  That is the head coach not doing his job.   The defense was crap in many ways and Wentz does not play defense.  Even with it being partially Wentz' fault, that falls on Reich too.  He wanted Wentz as the Colts QB and then managed to not be able to control him.  Man up Reich, after 16 games, if you cannot control your QB it is on you.     

 

I don't think expecting your QB to be Manning or Luch is going to work.  We may not see that with Ryan.  (although a better chance than Wentz).

A lot of blame should go around but Wentz played badly so no sugarcoating it. My point is, had we had a halfway good QB we don't lose. Matt Ryan probably wins that game. The D played badly but still only gave up 26 points and we gave them good field position twice because of turnovers, it is not like we gave up 40 points. Our offense put 0 pressure on them to have to even score so they played loose the whole 2nd half. We scored 11 points, that will not win you any games.

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