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Mo Alie-Cox is going to Tight End school this summer!


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Just now, AustinnKaine said:

I think they made due with what they had. and like i said before Doyle was not an accomplished pass catcher, he did alright in short possession passes but I would never rank him as a top TE. (I would rank him as a top blocking TE)

 

So do me a favor so we can have a clear/concise discussion on the topic.

Could you define "accomplished pass catcher".

Is it catch %, drop %, separation, YAC, etc. etc.. 

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5 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

I've used the basic 101 terminology that's been around for decades. Like X, Z, slot/Y for WR. All teams have their nuances, as well as some scheme specific terminology. 


I understand.    I’m only sharing what the Colts call it so readers here can understand when they read or hear the F reference.  

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6 hours ago, AustinnKaine said:

I think they made due with what they had. and like i said before Doyle was not an accomplished pass catcher, he did alright in short possession passes but I would never rank him as a top TE. (I would rank him as a top blocking TE)

 

 

To you, a TE has to be a pass catcher but you think a blocking TE is not a true TE?

To me, a TE that blocks well and does it allot is still a true TE.   I would take Doyle over Ebron any day.  

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Just now, throwing BBZ said:
7 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

So do me a favor so we can have a clear/concise discussion on the topic.

Could you define "accomplished pass catcher".

Is it catch %, drop %, separation, YAC, etc. etc.. 

 

  It doesn't require a discussion on any of that, we know one when see one.
 You did oddly leave out (IMO) the #1 requirement, route runner.

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On 6/16/2022 at 5:39 PM, Myles said:

just curious.   Do you feel a "true TE" doesn't need to block much?

I just don't know what "true TE" means.  In my 30 years of watching the NFL, there were always good blocking TE's who provided as much benefit to the team as mostly pass catching TE's.    It all depends what the team needs.

 

 Of course you had to leave out the 1 to have a difference of opinion.
And he is simply talking about a 1 being able to attack the seams in todays pass happy NFL. 
 ALL teams need a seam TE, and that they can hold their own as a blocker is the difference in their seasonal snap counts. If you are slow afoot like Mo it helps the D in their game planning.
 This is what makes Woods such an exciting prospect. A future All-Pro in 3-5 years. :rock:

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39 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

  It doesn't require a discussion on any of that, we know one when see one.
 You did oddly leave out (IMO) the #1 requirement, route runner.

Actually, I think it's a very subjective topic, and opinions vary greatly around definition. 

 

And the eye test, that incredibly subjective. To add, TEs (or really any position) can look incredibly different from year to year based on the scheme they are in, they way the coaches choose to use them, or the QB they are paired with. 

 

You need look no further than Ebron in 2017, 2018, and 2019. He was used very different all three years. When he got to Indy in 2018, his RZ routes and targets increased dramatically over his Detroit days. His routes had a very good % of verticals in 2018 as well. In 2019, he ran mostly short possession routes. His quality metrics didn't change all that much. He still had drop issues in all 3 years and his drop % was nearly the same (and top 10 bad). His catch % was similar as well. Yet in 2018 he was top 5 in TE total yards, and was #2 in TDs among both WRs and TEs. 

 

As far as Doyle is concerned, he's never really been used vertically. But over the years he's had pretty decent stats when targeted. He's always been know to run good routes. In various years, he's been top 5 in separation and also catch rate. In 2017 with Brissett (probably his best season), he was top 5 in both TE YAC and catch rate, and was #6 in total TE yards. The Pagano/Brissett combo was a lot better than the Reich/Brissett combo for Doyle. Anyway, I'd say being #6 in total yards, #5 in catch rate (#1 in true catch rate), and #2 in YAC, is a pretty accomplished catching year (2017). No?

 

You can also point out MAC's use, and how he's looked when used differently. Looked like a pure stud vs MN when given 2nd and 3rd level verts. Rarely saw them after that game, and his routes were mostly short possession stuff. 

 

Anyway, I'd recommend looking at some of the top TE's route charts (easily accessible via nextgen) last season, and then compare to our TEs. It's pretty eye opening. Then look at Ebron's charts in 2018 and compare to 2019. And MAC's MN game charts vs all the others. Anyway, scheme and play calling are huge impacts.... 

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18 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

I think Mo has the physical skills to be a stud.  Hopefully this camp taught him some things.   Also,  frank,   turn him loose 

Admirable athletic support there for Mo, but he was drafted in 2017 and is mediocre at best.  I doubt that is going to change.

 

Maybe Woods or Ogletree can change that trend down the road though.  I am hopeful.

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4 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

  It doesn't require a discussion on any of that, we know one when see one.
 You did oddly leave out (IMO) the #1 requirement, route runner.

If I was going to prioritize TE in the draft my top requirement would be a player who has good option route projection.  Because the top TEs invariably are threats in that way. And a big target who can run consistent option routes is going to be a problem for defenses.

 

In order to run option routes consistently a couple things need to happen.  First they need to have a deep understanding of the offense, which means they need to be intelligent players.  If he's reading wrong his chances of being in the wrong spot and the QB looking foolish greatly increase.  Second they need to be able to make quick decisions, as there will be times where they're just running up on the feet of the defender and choosing the opposite direction he chooses.  Some guys just don't have that.  So when I see that on the college tape that's something I'd prioritize.

 

All the best slots in today's NFL are guys who excel there.  Whether they're a TE or WR the good ones read and anticipate and are on the same page as their QB.  Last year's obvious example is Kupp.

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16 hours ago, Myles said:

To you, a TE has to be a pass catcher but you think a blocking TE is not a true TE?

To me, a TE that blocks well and does it allot is still a true TE.   I would take Doyle over Ebron any day.  

Where did I say a blocking TE isn't a true TE? 

 

I didn't say anything close to that. 

 

I said, in my personal opinion a true, top, TE1 can pass block, run block, and catch the ball: all at above average levels.

 

purely an opinion., but i certainly didn't say what you are trying to claim here., 

 

(Also the ebron comparison is irrelveant because he isn't a blocker. and that's part of the point, I'm talking aouut elite TEs that can do it all)

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22 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

So do me a favor so we can have a clear/concise discussion on the topic.

Could you define "accomplished pass catcher".

Is it catch %, drop %, separation, YAC, etc. etc.. 

Receiving yardage total. It's not confusing. Go and compare Kelce, Kittle, or Andrews yardage per game, per season, perwhatever, it's not even close. 

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34 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

Receiving yardage total. It's not confusing. Go and compare Kelce, Kittle, or Andrews yardage per game, per season, perwhatever, it's not even close. 

 

LOL.... this is what I thought. 

 

All three of those guys are used totally different. That's on scheme.

All 3 of those guys have 80+% route participation (used more like WRs, rarely block) and got a good % deep balls, while Doyle was in the 40s% last season and the year prior...... 

 

So lets look at 2017, when Doyle's route participation was 80+%........

  • #6 in total yards
  • #5 in catch rate and #1 in true catch rate
  • #2 in YAC

That was under Chud/Pagano..... pretty good "accomplished pass catcher" that year, no? And with Brissett even lol. 

 

See what a difference scheme can make? It's not confusing.

 

Not saying Doyle is some All Pro, but when used like those others, he was top 5ish in most key areas.

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27 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

LOL.... this is what I thought. 

 

All three of those guys are used totally different. That's on scheme.

All 3 of those guys have 80+% route participation (used more like WRs, rarely block) and got a good % deep balls, while Doyle was in the 40s% last season and the year prior...... 

 

So lets look at 2017, when Doyle's route participation was 80+%........

  • #6 in total yards
  • #5 in catch rate and #1 in true catch rate
  • #2 in YAC

That was under Chud/Pagano..... pretty good "accomplished pass catcher" that year, no? And with Brissett even lol. 

 

See what a difference scheme can make? It's not confusing.

 

Not saying Doyle is some All Pro, but when used like those others, he was top 5ish in most key areas.

i was not looking for a debate here, i've made it very clear what i've said is an opinion, which really isn't intended for debate here. 

 

also it wouldn't even be a fun debate because you're seriously trying to compare Doyle to Kelce, Kittle, and Andrews. It's just not a conversation i want to have to be honest. 

 

career receiving yards:

Kelce 9,000 (still playing)

Kittle 4,489 (still playing)

Andrerws 3,466 (still playing)

Doyle (2,729) (retired)

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

i was not looking for a debate here, i've made it very clear what i've said is an opinion, which really isn't intended for debate here. 

 

also it wouldn't even be a fun debate because you're seriously trying to compare Doyle to Kelce, Kittle, and Andrews. It's just not a conversation i want to have to be honest. 

I asked you to pick the definition criteria.

You did.

Using that, I showed Doyle was top 5ish guy when actually used like the specific guys you mentioned.

 

Pretty simple.

Doyle was very good in 2017. There's really no debate to have under your own criteria. 

Scheme can make guys look totally different, which is something you've completely overlooked. 

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Just now, EastStreet said:

I asked you to pick the definition criteria.

You did.

Using that, I showed Doyle was top 5ish guy when actually used like the specific guys you mentioned.

 

Pretty simple.

Doyle was very good in 2017. There's really no debate to have under your own criteria. 

Scheme can make guys look totally different, which is something you've completely overlooked. 

right because Doyle is just as talented as Kelce, kittle, and Andrews, and the only reason we didn't see that level of production is because the coaches didn't utilize him due to scheme. got it. 

 

agree to disagree bud

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3 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

right because Doyle is just as talented as Kelce, kittle, and Andrews, and the only reason we didn't see that level of production is because the coaches didn't utilize him due to scheme. got it. 

 

agree to disagree bud

 

I specifically said I don't view Doyle as an All Pro, or truly elite as All Pro would suggest. 

 

The debate was specifically about "accomplished pass catcher". That doesn't mean All Pro. 

 

Chud used Doyle like other coaches used the guys you mentioned (unlike how he's been used), and Doyle's stats suggest he's capable of high level play. I'd say if you're top 5ish, there really isn't a lot of room for debate. And even with Brissett as his QB with a bad OL, and shorter routes than the others, he still ranked well. 

 

If you want to ignore the obvious in terms of scheme usage, and his specific production output under both conditions, then that's on you. Scheme does matter. Chud got more out of Doyle than Reich. It's that simple. 

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On 6/19/2022 at 12:24 AM, AustinnKaine said:

Where did I say a blocking TE isn't a true TE? 

 

I didn't say anything close to that. 

 

I said, in my personal opinion a true, top, TE1 can pass block, run block, and catch the ball: all at above average levels.

 

purely an opinion., but i certainly didn't say what you are trying to claim here., 

 

(Also the ebron comparison is irrelveant because he isn't a blocker. and that's part of the point, I'm talking aouut elite TEs that can do it all)

You did post the following.

 

"We haven't had a true TE1 in a while. I love Jack Doyle and what he provided here, but he was primarily a blocking TE. "

 

Maybe I read it wrong but to me that is saying Doyle isn't a "true TE" because he blocks allot.   

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On 6/18/2022 at 1:25 AM, AustinnKaine said:

I think they made due with what they had. and like i said before Doyle was not an accomplished pass catcher, he did alright in short possession passes but I would never rank him as a top TE. (I would rank him as a top blocking TE)

 

 

You've been correct about the Colts and TEs in this thread.  Frank has made due with what he's had.  Ebron, who was no blocker, was probably the best move TE Frank coached.  Ebron's lack of usage coincided with JBs emergence as a starter,.  He had some drops, then an apparent attitude issue.

 

I would say that Doyle was a TE about #1.5.  Did well in the passing game, but was not a huge threat.  Sort of did well when under the radar but if he was a focus, could get shut down pretty easily, IMO.

 

I think Cox's ceiling is Doyle at best, so we'd still need that Move/Flex TE to emerge even if Cox reached Doyle's prowess..

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12 hours ago, Myles said:

You did post the following.

 

"We haven't had a true TE1 in a while. I love Jack Doyle and what he provided here, but he was primarily a blocking TE. "

 

Maybe I read it wrong but to me that is saying Doyle isn't a "true TE" because he blocks allot.   

oh no bro, that's not what Im saying, he was our TE1, but in my mind he isn't a true TE1 because he is primarily a blocker. If you put him on a roster with well rounded TE's he would be 2nd on the depth chart. that's all im saying. but don't get me wrong, Doyle is one of my all time favorite colts. But that doesn't change the fact that he was basically a 6th lineman

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10 hours ago, DougDew said:

You've been correct about the Colts and TEs in this thread.  Frank has made due with what he's had.  Ebron, who was no blocker, was probably the best move TE Frank coached.  Ebron's lack of usage coincided with JBs emergence as a starter,.  He had some drops, then an apparent attitude issue.

 

I would say that Doyle was a TE about #1.5.  Did well in the passing game, but was not a huge threat.  Sort of did well when under the radar but if he was a focus, could get shut down pretty easily, IMO.

 

I think Cox's ceiling is Doyle at best, so we'd still need that Move/Flex TE to emerge even if Cox reached Doyle's prowess..

I think you summed it up well here doug

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