Is Frank Reich a top 10 HC?

[AKB]

41 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

He was more or less hands off with Luck's O. 

Remove that year, and his O's rank is 17th. And that's the definition of average.

And that's with a top 5 OL in 3 of the 4 years.

His LAC teams had the worst balance in the league. 

Folks want to give him uber credit for not play calling in 2017 with Wentz, but he failed when Wentz was here. 

 

And yes, QB play matters. So does coaching. Like the time when he didn't give Hoyer 1st team reps prior to visiting Miami (knowing JB was a huge question)... A Miami team who was a bad rush defense. He proceeded to go air raid all over the field vs a team that couldn't stop the run with a QB who didn't practice lol.. 

 

Get to the top of the mountain. Keep chopping the wood. 

 

What do you mean he was hands off? Can you provide anything to support this? From what I understand, Reich has been the playcaller every single year. 

[EastStreet]

14 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

What do you mean he was hands off? Can you provide anything to support this? From what I understand, Reich has been the playcaller every single year. 

Reich was the play caller in 2018, but we did not see total abandonment of our previous O. Luck ran a lot of the same exact plays. He changed a ton of plays as well like he always did. More than we've seen from our QBs since.  

 

And to the narrative by some that we were a bunch shorter passing, yes we went shorter more, but we also went long plenty. A matter of fact, Luck had slightly more deep balls in 2018 than he did in 2016 and before. The ANY/A, CAY, etc weren't much different at all. 

 

And to the narrative that we pounded the ball more in 2018 than previous.... , our pass play % was 62% in 2018, 2% higher than in 2016.  Since then/2018, it has been 54%, 56%, and 53%..... 

 

His O has been very different since 2018 IMO.

[AKB]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

Reich was the play caller in 2018, but we did not see total abandonment of our previous O. Luck ran a lot of the same exact plays. He changed a ton of plays as well like he always did. More than we've seen from our QBs since.  

 

And to the narrative by some that we were a bunch shorter passing, yes we went shorter more, but we also went long plenty. A matter of fact, Luck had slightly more deep balls in 2018 than he did in 2016 and before. The ANY/A, CAY, etc weren't much different at all. 

 

And to the narrative that we pounded the ball more in 2018 than previous.... , our pass play % was 62% in 2018, 2% higher than in 2016.  Since then/2018, it has been 54%, 56%, and 53%..... 

 

His O has been very different since 2018 IMO.

 

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? Also, I don't feel like you answered my question. He was still the playcaller at the end of the day. It doesn't matter if the plays were called something else. 

 

Also, Reich is on record saying multiple times, I mean multiple... that they tailor the offense towards the skill set of the QB. So I'm not sure why you keep talking about what the offense looks like. At the end of the day your argument falls flat, and at this point I feel like we aren't even talking about the same thing as you keep responding to other people mid convo here. At the end of the day, you can't take credit away from Reich on the good year, and then only insert blame on the bad side when it doesn't fit your narrative. 

 

The numbers are clear as day above, he consistently has a top 10 offense when given a competent QB, and I expect we see the same again this year. He was the playcaller in 2018, it doesn't matter if it wasn't his offense. That just goes to show that he can utilize another scheme easily and that he is a versatile playcaller. Not sure what else we are talking about here. 

[EastStreet]

14 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

 

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? Also, I don't feel like you answered my question. He was still the playcaller at the end of the day. It doesn't matter if the plays were called something else. 

 

Also, Reich is on record saying multiple times, I mean multiple... that they tailor the offense towards the skill set of the QB. So I'm not sure why you keep talking about what the offense looks like. At the end of the day your argument falls flat, and at this point I feel like we aren't even talking about the same thing as you keep responding to other people mid convo here. At the end of the day, you can't take credit away from Reich on the good year, and then only insert blame on the bad side when it doesn't fit your narrative. 

 

The numbers are clear as day above, he consistently has a top 10 offense when given a competent QB, and I expect we see the same again this year. He was the playcaller in 2018, it doesn't matter if it wasn't his offense. That just goes to show that he can utilize another scheme easily and that he is a versatile playcaller. Not sure what else we are talking about here. 

 

It's pretty common practice, and somewhat logical, to expect a slow offensive transition from one scheme to the next, especially when you have a firmly entrenched star QB who has historically had a potent offense. That's what happened in Indy. Reich added, but there was not a full transition. 

 

You asked for data, I gave it to you. Now your argument has pivoted to "stats/data will never matter due to QBs". So why ask lol. 

 

Lucks stats, including advanced, didn't change a whole lot, except for his sack%, which is because of the obvious upgrades and the job the Guge did finding the right mix early on. 

 

If you want to throw stats totally out the window, and just talk game plan or prep, I could give you plenty of examples of throwing too much vs bad run Ds. Not throwing vs bad pass Ds. Questionable personnel decisions, etc..

 

But like I said. Reich brings some good things. But he also brings some not so good things. The majority of folks on the board don't see him as top 10. It is what it is, and I doubt any stat, data, or game specific failure I bring up would change your view. And that's OK. We can agree to disagree. At the end of the day, I hope he kills it this season. I'm cheering for his success. 

 

 

[AKB]

5 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

It's pretty common practice, and somewhat logical, to expect a slow offensive transition from one scheme to the next, especially when you have a firmly entrenched star QB who has historically had a potent offense. That's what happened in Indy. Reich added, but there was not a full transition. 

 

You asked for data, I gave it to you. Now your argument has pivoted to "stats/data will never matter due to QBs". So why ask lol. 

 

Lucks stats, including advanced, didn't change a whole lot, except for his sack%, which is because of the obvious upgrades and the job the Guge did finding the right mix early on. 

 

If you want to throw stats totally out the window, and just talk game plan or prep, I could give you plenty of examples of throwing too much vs bad run Ds. Not throwing vs bad pass Ds. Questionable personnel decisions, etc..

 

But like I said. Reich brings some good things. But he also brings some not so good things. The majority of folks on the board don't see him as top 10. It is what it is, and I doubt any stat, data, or game specific failure I bring up would change your view. And that's OK. We can agree to disagree. At the end of the day, I hope he kills it this season. I'm cheering for his success. 

 

 

What are you even talking about? I'm the one that posted the stats, and I didn't ask you to post any stats? Not sure what you're talking about. Go and quote that part for me. 

 

You're trying to say Reich doesn't deserve credit for a top 10 offense because it was an old playbook? That is complete nonsense. Also to add is the fact he was still the play caller.

 

I'm the one that posted the stats, yet you are saying im ignoring stats. I think you've confused me for someone else on this board. Go and look at our conversation and lets try to talk about what we started talking about, cause to be honest i've got no clue what you're on about. 

[EastStreet]

Just now, AustinnKaine said:

What are you even talking about? I'm the one that posted the stats, and I didn't ask you to post any stats? Not sure what you're talking about. Go and quote that part for me. 

You asked what I had to support my view. If not data, then what.

 

I provided you info that showed Luck's play didn't change a lot, which some else just said was a lot shorter and we pounded the run. 

 

I guess unless it's a quote from Reich or Luck, nothing matters lol.. 

Just now, AustinnKaine said:

 

You're trying to say Reich doesn't deserve credit for a top 10 offense because it was an old playbook? That is complete nonsense. Also to add is the fact he was still the play caller.

You're putting words in my mouth. 

Luck was Luck. The OL went from near bottom to near top.

You should expect improvement, right?

Our offensive output passing was about the same (between Luck's last two healthy years 2016 and 2014). Our passing % was not far off. 

Just now, AustinnKaine said:

 

I'm the one that posted the stats, yet you are saying im ignoring stats. I think you've confused me for someone else on this board. Go and look at our conversation and lets try to talk about what we started talking about, cause to be honest i've got no clue what you're on about. 

In our exchange this evening (that you started), you really haven't provided anything. You provided O ranks. That's it. 

And I responded that removing Luck's year, when Luck was the same as he was in 2014 and 2016, our O ranked 17th, which is average. 

[AKB]

26 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

You asked what I had to support my view. If not data, then what.

 

I provided you info that showed Luck's play didn't change a lot, which some else just said was a lot shorter and we pounded the run. 

 

I guess unless it's a quote from Reich or Luck, nothing matters lol.. 

You're putting words in my mouth. 

Luck was Luck. The OL went from near bottom to near top.

You should expect improvement, right?

Our offensive output passing was about the same (between Luck's last two healthy years 2016 and 2014). Our passing % was not far off. 

In our exchange this evening (that you started), you really haven't provided anything. You provided O ranks. That's it. 

And I responded that removing Luck's year, when Luck was the same as he was in 2014 and 2016, our O ranked 17th, which is average. 

Okay you aren't making any sense. You can't just remove Lucks year? 

 

It was Luck, Brissett, Rivers, and Wentz

 

Each year the offensive yardage correlated with talent at QB. You said don't blame Wentz for the bad year, I said well look at the numbers. Reich is a top 10 coach. PFF has him as a top ten coach. Remember? That's what we are talking about. As to what the pass and run ratios are.. that has nothing to do with the original response. Which was that Reich does just fine with playcalling.

 

Right? That's my point, and the only thing I've discussed so far is that Reich is a good play caller in general,. and if you look at our offensive yardage we are top 10 when he has a competent QB. Then you start saying stuff that doesn't even make sense, like lets remove luck from the equation? That makes no sense at all dude. I think the convo is over here because we aren't even talking to each other, just talking past eachother at this point. 

 

If you're going to ignore all that, just to say that in some games, we should run more.. well that's not a conversation i'm interested in having. It's just not even worth it. Additionally, if having a top ten offense for you isn't "enough" then I'd say the only solution to satisfy your coaching standard would be to have a HOF coach. 

[EastStreet]

Just now, AustinnKaine said:

Okay you aren't making any sense. You can't just remove Lucks year? 

 

It was Luck, Brissett, Rivers, and Wentz

 

Each year the offensive yardage correlated with talent at QB. You said don't blame Wentz for the bad year, I said well look at the numbers. Reich is a top 10 coach. PFF has him as a top ten coach. Remember? That's what we are talking about. As to what the pass and run ratios are.. that has nothing to do with the original response. Which was that Reich does just fine with playcalling.

 

Right? That's my point, and the only thing I've discussed so far is that Reich is a good play caller in general,. and if you look at our offensive yardage we are top 10 when he has a competent QB. Then you start saying stuff that doesn't even make sense, like lets remove luck from the equation? That makes no sense at all dude. I think the convo is over here because we aren't even talking to each other, just talking past eachother at this point. 

OK...

Don't remove Luck. Let's actually focus on Luck... lol

 

Our total O rank if you want to look at Luck's healthy years....

 

2012 (rook) - 10th

2013 - 11th

2014 - 3rd

2016 - 9th

2018 - 7th

 

Average Pagano 8.25 (which includes a rook season with inferior OLs not near 2018 level)

Average Reich 7.0 (with a top 5 OL that Pagano never had)....

 

So basically Pagano did roughly the same or better with a far inferior OL those years. 

 

Got it!

[AKB]

24 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

OK...

Don't remove Luck. Let's actually focus on Luck... lol

 

Our total O rank if you want to look at Luck's healthy years....

 

2012 (rook) - 10th

2013 - 11th

2014 - 3rd

2016 - 9th

2018 - 7th

 

Average Pagano 8.25 (which includes a rook season with inferior OLs not near 2018 level)

Average Reich 7.0 (with a top 5 OL that Pagano never had)....

 

So basically Pagano did roughly the same or better with a far inferior OL those years. 

 

Got it!

So then your argument is that... luck had an influence on the average yardage per season.... isn't that my original statement? Let me go and copy and paste my original quote... lol this is hilarious. 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My original Quote: The very thing we are discussing here

"In ranking all 32 NFL head coaches, Pro Football Focus had Reich at No. 9 in the “Good Coaches” tier, which was the tier below the “Hall of Fame Coaches” tier."

 

ranked 16 in total yards 2021 (Wentz, Rushing title for JT)

 

ranked 10 in total yards 2020 (Rivers)

 

ranked 25 in total yards 2019 (Jacoby Brissett lol)

 

ranked 7 in total yards in 2018 (Luck)

 

Looks like he does just fine with playcalling most of the time. Also has never fallen below 7-9 Record with the colts. 

 

I know you said "you're not gonna hear it" but QB play does matter. There is no coincidence that the highest rated years in total offense are directly related to the quality of QB. I suspect we see another top 10ish Offense this season with Ryan. 

 

If you list it based off QB skill and what their offense's total yardarge ranking were, it would go: 

 

Luck

Rivers

Wentz

Brissett.. 

 

 

Not many people will argue with the talent level written in that order, while they played for Colts. 

Additionally, I would place Ryan slightly above Rivers and considerably below Luck. 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In conclusion: You won't blame Wentz for the average year, but you blame Luck for the exceptional years. You also haven't said a thing about Rivers and his top 10 offense here. Are you going to go and say that Rivers was a top ten QB his whole career, and that the playcalling had nothing to do with it here? What about his playcalling and team the year prior? Sometimes I feel like @EastStreet you argue for the sake of arguing. Because going back and reading everything, you aren't making any coherent sense in regards to what i've stated specifically, and I'd go as far to say you are actually contradicting yourself at this point. 

[EastStreet]

14 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

So then your argument is that... luck had an influence on the average yardage per season.... isn't that my original statement? Let me go and copy and paste my original quote... lol this is hilarious. 

 

 

My origiinal Quote: The very thing we are discussing here

"In ranking all 32 NFL head coaches, Pro Football Focus had Reich at No. 9 in the “Good Coaches” tier, which was the tier below the “Hall of Fame Coaches” tier."

 

ranked 16 in total yards 2021 (Wentz, Rushing title for JT)

 

ranked 10 in total yards 2020 (Rivers)

 

ranked 25 in total yards 2019 (Jacoby Brissett lol)

 

ranked 7 in total yards in 2018 (Luck)

 

Looks like he does just fine with playcalling most of the time. Also has never fallen below 7-9 Record with the colts. 

 

I know you said "you're not gonna hear it" but QB play does matter. There is no coincidence that the highest rated years in total offense are directly related to the quality of QB. I suspect we see another top 10ish Offense this season with Ryan. 

 

If you list it based off QB skill and what their offense's total yardarge ranking were, it would go: 

 

Luck

Rivers

Wentz

Brissett.. 

 

 

Not many people will argue with the talent level written in that order, while they played for Colts. 

Additionally, I would place Ryan slightly above Rivers and considerably below Luck. 

 

 

In conclusion: You won't blame Wentz for the average year, but you blame Luck for the exceptional years. You also haven't said a thing about Rivers and his top 10 offense here. Are you going to go and say that Rivers was a top ten QB his whole career, and that the playcalling had nothing to do with it here? What about his playcalling and team the year prior? Sometimes I feel like @EastStreet you argue for the saking of arguing. Because going back and reading everything, you aren't making any coherent sense in regards to what i've stated specifically. 

 

So you pivot again. 

 

Was Pagano a top 10 coach?

He had similar O production when looking at Luck.

 

I've said little to nothing about Wentz in this thread. Reich though brought Wentz here. Do you blame him for that? But Wentz did worse than 2018 and 2019 while in Indy. 

 

Rivers will likely be a HoF QB. His total yard dropped with Reich even though he had a far superior OL than the year before. Lowest total yards in 8 years. 

 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

The collapse late in the season probably would have cost Reich his job if Wentz  wasn't the scapegoat. 

If the colts don't  at least make the playoffs this year I think Reich is gone. 

 

There are only 32 teams, so even if he does sneak in the top 10 that's only top third tier. But he's mostly mid tier at best imho. 

[EastStreet]

8 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

The collapse late in the season probably would have cost Reich his job if Wentz  wasn't the scapegoat. 

If the colts don't  at least make the playoffs this year I think Reich is gone. 

 

There are only 32 teams, so even if he does sneak in the top 10 that's only top third tier. But he's mostly mid tier at best imho. 

 

The collapse IMO was very evident on both sides of the line. Wentz got completely hammered vs Jax. Twice the sacks of his season high lol. And he got hammered a lot early. And our DL only had 1 sack and only like 4 or 5 pressures the entire game. Incredibly bad. Next level bad. Scape goat Wentz all you want. He wasn't coaching or managing the OL or DL. 

[colts89]

He's top 12 to fringe top 10 to me. Him advocating for Wentz and not getting much out of him wasn't great. He has some coaching flubs every few games. In the same breathe he sometimes architects some great drives/games for the team, especially early on in games.  I want to see what he can do when he can get a stable QB playing for 2 years and hopefully this new D is better in late games against better oponents.

[NewColtsFan]

6 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Dude, WT f are you even talking about.

Please provide the post where I said I only watched one game in 2018. 

 

Is this like another sling box crusade from you... lol

 

Dude....   I'd be happy to provide it, but I don't know how to search the archives here, otherwise, I'd love to link it.

 

But I'm happy to tell you the exchange.....

 

It was in the days and weeks after our Jan 2019 playoff loss to KC.   People were not happy with how poorly we played.   You were among those trashing Frank.    Fine.    But I pointed out the offense you didn't like in that one game was just one game.   I asked you what about the offense for the rest of the season?    That it was Frank's offense that brought us back from 1-4 and got us into the playoffs where we first beat Houston before losing to KC.

 

And that's when you said,  this was the only game of the 2018 season you saw.   Your words, not mine.

 

I asked you who makes a judgement on a coach -- any coach -- based on one game?     Who does that?

 

You responded that you had seen enough to know.

 

I have repeatedly over the years pointed out that all of your comments about 2018 are based on stats that anyone could get from a box score.   But you've only made comments based on what you actualdly saw about one game -- the KC playoff loss.     That's it.  

 

I've repeatedly pointed out that for a guy who claims you saw the 2018 season,  you had no idea that Luck was pulled on the last play of Game 4, a Hail Mary against Philly that Luck could not throw.   We put Brissett in for that.  You've stated Luck's arm was all the way back,  and yet, we pulled him for a 55 yard throw he could not make.   If you saw the game, how did you not know that?

 

I've repeatedly pointed out that Luck only practice 2 out of 3 days during the week because his arm wasn't 100 percent back.     You didn't know that and have never explained it.

 

This claim that Frank ran the offense from previous years is more nonsense.    And here's the proof.    When Wentz and Ryan came in,  they both looked at previous years of Frank with the Colts and both commented that he's basically running roughly the same offense,  except that he tweeks about 10-15 percent to tailor for the new quarterback.   Trying to cator to what each QB likes to do.     There's been zero talk of a new offense.    Brissett ran basically the same offense that Luck did,  only he didn't run it as well.    But there was no talk of a whole new offense.   Go ahead and try to find that.    

 

The offense we ran in 2018 looked completely different than previous years under Pagano and all his coordinators.   It was a topic widely discussed here that year.   We even talked about how we loved Arians as a head coach,  but didn't like his offense, certainly not when we didn't have a good enough O-line.   And nothing changed with other coordinators.   Pagano and Grigson wanted big chunk plays.    Ballard and Frank did not.

 

This argument you're now floating is a new one.   You've made it at least twice this week,  maybe three times?   Otherwise,  never seen you make it before.   You'd have people here believe that the offense Frank wanted to install, Ballard told him to and instead stick with the previous big play offense,  when Frank's offense is part of what got him hired in the first place.    And the offense has not changed significantly since he's been our HC.    He makes specific adjustments for each QB,  but nothing major.    

 

Luck had his best season under Reich.   The idea Frank had nothing to do with Luck's success in 2018 is laughable on its face.     Sorry.     I've tried hard to avoid moments like this with you,  but this latest was simply too much to ignore.

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Dude....   I'd be happy to provide it, but I don't know how to search the archives here, otherwise, I'd love to link it.

 

But I'm happy to tell you the exchange.....

 

It was in the days and weeks after our Jan 2019 playoff loss to KC.   People were not happy with how poorly we played.   You were among those trashing Frank.    Fine.    But I pointed out the offense you didn't like in that one game was just one game.   I asked you what about the offense for the rest of the season?    That it was Frank's offense that brought us back from 1-4 and got us into the playoffs where we first beat Houston before losing to KC.

 

And that's when you said,  this was the only game of the 2018 season you saw.   Your words, not mine.

 

I asked you who makes a judgement on a coach -- any coach -- based on one game?     Who does that?

 

You responded that you had seen enough to know.

 

I have repeatedly over the years pointed out that all of your comments about 2018 are based on stats that anyone could get from a box score.   But you've only made comments based on what you actualdly saw about one game -- the KC playoff loss.     That's it.  

 

I've repeatedly pointed out that for a guy who claims you saw the 2018 season,  you had no idea that Luck was pulled on the last play of Game 4, a Hail Mary against Philly that Luck could not throw.   We put Brissett in for that.  You've stated Luck's arm was all the way back,  and yet, we pulled him for a 55 yard throw he could not make.   If you saw the game, how did you not know that?

 

I've repeatedly pointed out that Luck only practice 2 out of 3 days during the week because his arm wasn't 100 percent back.     You didn't know that and have never explained it.

 

This claim that Frank ran the offense from previous years is more nonsense.    And here's the proof.    When Wentz and Ryan came in,  they both looked at previous years of Frank with the Colts and both commented that he's basically running roughly the same offense,  except that he tweeks about 10-15 percent to tailor for the new quarterback.   Trying to cator to what each QB likes to do.     There's been zero talk of a new offense.    Brissett ran basically the same offense that Luck did,  only he didn't run it as well.    But there was no talk of a whole new offense.   Go ahead and try to find that.    

 

The offense we ran in 2018 looked completely different than previous years under Pagano and all his coordinators.   It was a topic widely discussed here that year.   We even talked about how we loved Arians as a head coach,  but didn't like his offense, certainly not when we didn't have a good enough O-line.   And nothing changed with other coordinators.   Pagano and Grigson wanted big chunk plays.    Ballard and Frank did not.

 

This argument you're now floating is a new one.   You've made it at least twice this week,  maybe three times?   Otherwise,  never seen you make it before.   You'd have people here believe that the offense Frank wanted to install, Ballard told him to and instead stick with the previous big play offense,  when Frank's offense is part of what got him hired in the first place.    And the offense has not changed significantly since he's been our HC.    He makes specific adjustments for each QB,  but nothing major.    

 

Luck had his best season under Reich.   The idea Frank had nothing to do with Luck's success in 2018 is laughable on its face.     Sorry.     I've tried hard to avoid moments like this with you,  but this latest was simply too much to ignore.

 

I really have no idea how many games East Street watched in 2018, that is between you and him. I gave you a LIKE though because I think Frank did a great job coaching Luck in 2018. We were good that year. I have Frank in my top 15 which is respectable and if we win the division I am not sure how many could bash Frank at that point. I think we will win the division assuming we stay healthy in the key spots. The year we had JB starting, we would've probably even had been 9-7 had he not got injured. Hoyer reeked. 

[Solid84]

13 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

In fairness to Frank, do you think Bill Belichick would've did any better with Wentz as his QB? I highly doubt it. We may have went 10-7 and squeezed in the playoffs but would've been one and done with Wentz. BB is regarded as the GOAT, so this is why I ask that question. Last season the Pats had a great defense and a rookie QB that played well all season and they got curbed stomped by Buffalo 47-10 in the playoffs. The problem I have with some in here, they just want to put our players down or coaches down but don't look at the  other 31 teams and analyze them. Give me Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Andrew Luck or even Matt Ryan in his prime and I would go 11-5 every season just putting a headset on, eating White Castles, and drinking Whiskey from a flask every game on the sideline. Without Tom Brady, Belichick would be just another good coach. Give Frank Tom Brady in his prime and Frank would be the GOAT - see how easy that is.

I’m certain BB wouldn’t have made the same boneheaded mistakes Reich did which cost us games during the season (against the Bucs, Titans etc.) and he definitely wouldn’t have allowed a collapse against the WORST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE with the playoffs on the line in week 18. 

[Superman]

This is not necessarily in any order. These are the HCs I would definitely rank ahead of Reich. I think their resumes speak for themselves, so I won't add any commentary.

• Belichick
• Harbaugh
• Reid
• LaFleur
• Shanahan
• McVay
• McDermott

These coaches I would possibly rank ahead of Reich. At this point, I don't know if I'd trade Reich for any of them because it's really not clear cut, but there's a conversation. I'd group Reich together with this batch.

• Vrabel -- I don't like his style, he's a defensive minded guy, trends conservative situationally, but his team is tough and they finish well, despite not having a great QB.
• Taylor -- He's riding high off a SB appearance, but his kicker got hot, his defense forced a bunch of turnovers (and he's an offensive guy), and he's also the primary play caller for an offense that had nearly a 9% sack rate, with a QB who just had reconstructive knee surgery. Some serious fundamental flaws that make me nervous.
• Staley -- Defensive guy, still working on his balance, but he seems to be a cutting edge analytics guy when it comes to situational awareness. I think he has a bright future, but still has to prove it.
• Tomlin -- I have him at the bottom of this group on purpose, his teams have floundered recently (haven't won a playoff game in five years), and he's kind of untouchable because the Steelers don't fire HCs and he won a SB in his second season, but I have serious problems with his game management. Post Ben, we'll see if he can get them back on track.

Next group of guys probably has a lot of support from others, but I'm not impressed by these guys. No order...

• Kingsbury -- Erratic team/QB that can't finish a season, and he seems to be overwhelmed by big moments. He has a sharp offensive mind, but everything else seems to be a problem for him.
• Pederson -- The way he allowed the situation to deteriorate in Philly is a big red flag. They had a magical run, then he seemed to lose the locker room (coincidentally, after Reich left), and his offense sputtered, he alienated his GM and QB, and he had a tenuous relationship with stats-based decision making.
• Stefanski -- He might belong in the previous tier, especially having had success with the Browns. But last season was bad, especially with the QB, and then OBJ leaving and showing he's still a star level talent that the Browns just couldn't take advantage of. Maybe Baker Mayfield is his Jared Goff...
• McDaniels -- Full disclosure, he was my first pick in 2018, and then he bailed on us, and since then he's been dead to me. But his previous work as a HC was not impressive. I think he has a special offensive mind, and I assume he's grown as a person/leader, but still a lot to prove.

Haven't seen enough of these guys, but early returns aren't blowing me away.

• Sirianni -- He's promising, not a great QB situation, still had a decent first year, and leaned into his team's strengths. 
• Smith (ATL) -- Just got going in ATL, underwhelming roster.
• Campbell -- Just got going in Detroit, underwhelming roster, almost didn't win any games.
• Rhule -- Tough QB situation, but no real results in two years, and it's not like he was outstanding in college either.
• Allen -- He was awful as Raiders HC, but a good DC.
• Saleh -- Bad roster, bad QBing, but as a defensive mastermind (by reputation), his defense was worse than the offense last year.

More experienced guys that I don't think are good.

• Carroll -- I don't think he gets it, today's NFL can't be conquered with a big, strong defense + run game. Outside of the LOB days, his work as a HC has been barely average.
• McCarthy -- I don't think he gets it either, his SB win was even longer ago than Carroll's, his offense seems stuck in the mid 2000s, and he admitted that he lied about studying up on the advances in the game. I think he held back the Packers, and is probably holding back the Cowboys now.
• Smith (HOU) -- I feel like he's HC by default, he was awful in Tampa, but probably got an unfair deal in Chicago. Still, he's an old school, defensive minded, overly conservative HC, with a .500 record and no playoff appearances since 2010. His players like him, but that's probably the best thing I can say about him.
• Rivera -- Since the Panthers went to the SB in 2015, his teams have had one winning season (2017), since then he's 26-35. 'And you wanna be my latex salesman??'
• Bowles -- He's 15 games under .500. I know the Jets job wasn't a good one, but he was there for four full seasons.

That's my list. It excludes this season's first year guys. For me, at worst, I have Reich in a group of five guys that are battling it out for 8-12.

 

Also, a lot of people have talked about the Colts starting games slow. I don't think that's true of the Colts under Reich. And especially in 2021, it was a strength of the Colts that they'd start games pretty well, and had a long streak of opening drive TDs. We didn't do a great job of finishing, and our memories are stained by the Jags game. Starting seasons poorly has been a thing; starting games poorly, not so much.

[2006Coltsbestever]

15 minutes ago, Superman said:

This is not necessarily in any order. These are the HCs I would definitely rank ahead of Reich. I think their resumes speak for themselves, so I won't add any commentary.

• Belichick
• Harbaugh
• Reid
• LaFleur
• Shanahan
• McVay
• McDermott

These coaches I would possibly rank ahead of Reich. At this point, I don't know if I'd trade Reich for any of them because it's really not clear cut, but there's a conversation. I'd group Reich together with this batch.

• Vrabel -- I don't like his style, he's a defensive minded guy, trends conservative situationally, but his team is tough and they finish well, despite not having a great QB.
• Taylor -- He's riding high off a SB appearance, but his kicker got hot, his defense forced a bunch of turnovers (and he's an offensive guy), and he's also the primary play caller for an offense that had nearly a 9% sack rate, with a QB who just had reconstructive knee surgery. Some serious fundamental flaws that make me nervous.
• Staley -- Defensive guy, still working on his balance, but he seems to be a cutting edge analytics guy when it comes to situational awareness. I think he has a bright future, but still has to prove it.
• Tomlin -- I have him at the bottom of this group on purpose, his teams have floundered recently (haven't won a playoff game in five years), and he's kind of untouchable because the Steelers don't fire HCs and he won a SB in his second season, but I have serious problems with his game management. Post Ben, we'll see if he can get them back on track.

Next group of guys probably has a lot of support from others, but I'm not impressed by these guys. No order...

• Kingsbury -- Erratic team/QB that can't finish a season, and he seems to be overwhelmed by big moments. He has a sharp offensive mind, but everything else seems to be a problem for him.
• Pederson -- The way he allowed the situation to deteriorate in Philly is a big red flag. They had a magical run, then he seemed to lose the locker room (coincidentally, after Reich left), and his offense sputtered, he alienated his GM and QB, and he had a tenuous relationship with stats-based decision making.
• Stefanski -- He might belong in the previous tier, especially having had success with the Browns. But last season was bad, especially with the QB, and then OBJ leaving and showing he's still a star level talent that the Browns just couldn't take advantage of. Maybe Baker Mayfield is his Jared Goff...
• McDaniels -- Full disclosure, he was my first pick in 2018, and then he bailed on us, and since then he's been dead to me. But his previous work as a HC was not impressive. I think he has a special offensive mind, and I assume he's grown as a person/leader, but still a lot to prove.

Haven't seen enough of these guys, but early returns aren't blowing me away.

• Sirianni -- He's promising, not a great QB situation, still had a decent first year, and leaned into his team's strengths. 
• Smith (ATL) -- Just got going in ATL, underwhelming roster.
• Campbell -- Just got going in Detroit, underwhelming roster, almost didn't win any games.
• Rhule -- Tough QB situation, but no real results in two years, and it's not like he was outstanding in college either.
• Allen -- He was awful as Raiders HC, but a good DC.
• Saleh -- Bad roster, bad QBing, but as a defensive mastermind (by reputation), his defense was worse than the offense last year.

More experienced guys that I don't think are good.

• Carroll -- I don't think he gets it, today's NFL can't be conquered with a big, strong defense + run game. Outside of the LOB days, his work as a HC has been barely average.
• McCarthy -- I don't think he gets it either, his SB win was even longer ago than Carroll's, his offense seems stuck in the mid 2000s, and he admitted that he lied about studying up on the advances in the game. I think he held back the Packers, and is probably holding back the Cowboys now.
• Smith (HOU) -- I feel like he's HC by default, he was awful in Tampa, but probably got an unfair deal in Chicago. Still, he's an old school, defensive minded, overly conservative HC, with a .500 record and no playoff appearances since 2010. His players like him, but that's probably the best thing I can say about him.
• Rivera -- Since the Panthers went to the SB in 2015, his teams have had one winning season (2017), since then he's 26-35. 'And you wanna be my latex salesman??'
• Bowles -- He's 15 games under .500. I know the Jets job wasn't a good one, but he was there for four full seasons.

That's my list. It excludes this season's first year guys. For me, at worst, I have Reich in a group of five guys that are battling it out for 8-12.

 

Also, a lot of people have talked about the Colts starting games slow. I don't think that's true of the Colts under Reich. And especially in 2021, it was a strength of the Colts that they'd start games pretty well, and had a long streak of opening drive TDs. We didn't do a great job of finishing, and our memories are stained by the Jags game. Starting seasons poorly has been a thing; starting games poorly, not so much.

Great break down, I was too lazy to do this type of breakdown, I agree with the 7 you have being better, after that it is a crapshoot. I would put possibly Tomlin, Pederson, Carroll, and Vrabel ahead of Frank (so that puts Frank 11-15 area). McCarthy IMO isn't better than Frank now, McCarthy will get a pass by many because he won a SB but he had Rodgers in his prime when he won a SB. In truth Dallas fans think McCarthy stinks. I have talked too many about this.

 

Kubiak won a SB with Peyton and he was an average coach IMO. He had #18 and a great D though. A franchise QB and a D that can rush the passer can make an average coach look great. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Post hidden above alert - why I have no clue. Have a great day everyone, I had a great response to @Superman post but oh well.

[Superman]

38 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Post hidden above alert - why I have no clue. Have a great day everyone, I had a great response to @Superman post but oh well.

 

Mine was hidden also, not sure why. 

[PRnum1]

Solid writeup @Superman

 

I would put Reich right behind your first and second list.

 

One problem I have with Reich (this is only my impression) is that the players don't seem to necessarily respect and fear him.

 

Compare Reich with Sean McDermott.  McDermott demands respect and this is required of today's NFL players.

 

Reich seems to be too much of a players coach or a good guy.

 

So yes, you want to coach players up, but when they make mistakes you need to tear them a new one or bench them or something.

[stitches]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

This is not necessarily in any order. These are the HCs I would definitely rank ahead of Reich. I think their resumes speak for themselves, so I won't add any commentary.

• Belichick
• Harbaugh
• Reid
• LaFleur
• Shanahan
• McVay
• McDermott

These coaches I would possibly rank ahead of Reich. At this point, I don't know if I'd trade Reich for any of them because it's really not clear cut, but there's a conversation. I'd group Reich together with this batch.

• Vrabel -- I don't like his style, he's a defensive minded guy, trends conservative situationally, but his team is tough and they finish well, despite not having a great QB.
• Taylor -- He's riding high off a SB appearance, but his kicker got hot, his defense forced a bunch of turnovers (and he's an offensive guy), and he's also the primary play caller for an offense that had nearly a 9% sack rate, with a QB who just had reconstructive knee surgery. Some serious fundamental flaws that make me nervous.
• Staley -- Defensive guy, still working on his balance, but he seems to be a cutting edge analytics guy when it comes to situational awareness. I think he has a bright future, but still has to prove it.
• Tomlin -- I have him at the bottom of this group on purpose, his teams have floundered recently (haven't won a playoff game in five years), and he's kind of untouchable because the Steelers don't fire HCs and he won a SB in his second season, but I have serious problems with his game management. Post Ben, we'll see if he can get them back on track.

Next group of guys probably has a lot of support from others, but I'm not impressed by these guys. No order...

• Kingsbury -- Erratic team/QB that can't finish a season, and he seems to be overwhelmed by big moments. He has a sharp offensive mind, but everything else seems to be a problem for him.
• Pederson -- The way he allowed the situation to deteriorate in Philly is a big red flag. They had a magical run, then he seemed to lose the locker room (coincidentally, after Reich left), and his offense sputtered, he alienated his GM and QB, and he had a tenuous relationship with stats-based decision making.
• Stefanski -- He might belong in the previous tier, especially having had success with the Browns. But last season was bad, especially with the QB, and then OBJ leaving and showing he's still a star level talent that the Browns just couldn't take advantage of. Maybe Baker Mayfield is his Jared Goff...
• McDaniels -- Full disclosure, he was my first pick in 2018, and then he bailed on us, and since then he's been dead to me. But his previous work as a HC was not impressive. I think he has a special offensive mind, and I assume he's grown as a person/leader, but still a lot to prove.

Haven't seen enough of these guys, but early returns aren't blowing me away.

• Sirianni -- He's promising, not a great QB situation, still had a decent first year, and leaned into his team's strengths. 
• Smith (ATL) -- Just got going in ATL, underwhelming roster.
• Campbell -- Just got going in Detroit, underwhelming roster, almost didn't win any games.
• Rhule -- Tough QB situation, but no real results in two years, and it's not like he was outstanding in college either.
• Allen -- He was awful as Raiders HC, but a good DC.
• Saleh -- Bad roster, bad QBing, but as a defensive mastermind (by reputation), his defense was worse than the offense last year.

More experienced guys that I don't think are good.

• Carroll -- I don't think he gets it, today's NFL can't be conquered with a big, strong defense + run game. Outside of the LOB days, his work as a HC has been barely average.
• McCarthy -- I don't think he gets it either, his SB win was even longer ago than Carroll's, his offense seems stuck in the mid 2000s, and he admitted that he lied about studying up on the advances in the game. I think he held back the Packers, and is probably holding back the Cowboys now.
• Smith (HOU) -- I feel like he's HC by default, he was awful in Tampa, but probably got an unfair deal in Chicago. Still, he's an old school, defensive minded, overly conservative HC, with a .500 record and no playoff appearances since 2010. His players like him, but that's probably the best thing I can say about him.
• Rivera -- Since the Panthers went to the SB in 2015, his teams have had one winning season (2017), since then he's 26-35. 'And you wanna be my latex salesman??'
• Bowles -- He's 15 games under .500. I know the Jets job wasn't a good one, but he was there for four full seasons.

That's my list. It excludes this season's first year guys. For me, at worst, I have Reich in a group of five guys that are battling it out for 8-12.

 

Also, a lot of people have talked about the Colts starting games slow. I don't think that's true of the Colts under Reich. And especially in 2021, it was a strength of the Colts that they'd start games pretty well, and had a long streak of opening drive TDs. We didn't do a great job of finishing, and our memories are stained by the Jags game. Starting seasons poorly has been a thing; starting games poorly, not so much.

 

Good job showing the grass is not always greener on the other side. I agree with huge majority of your assessments and that would put Reich exactly around the border of the top 10. Still not sure abover or below it, but that's the overall range IMO. 

[Superman]

6 minutes ago, PRnum1 said:

Solid writeup @Superman

 

I would put Reich right behind your first and second list.

 

One problem I have with Reich (this is only my impression) is that the players don't seem to necessarily respect and fear him.

 

Compare Reich with Sean McDermott.  McDermott demands respect and this is required of today's NFL players.

 

Reich seems to be too much of a players coach or a good guy.

 

So yes, you want to coach players up, but when they make mistakes you need to tear them a new one or bench them or something.

 

I usually disagree with this 'players don't fear him' stuff. In Reich's case, I do think he hesitates too often when he should be reining his players in. Good example is the Bucs game; he should have taken the ball out of Wentz's hands well before he dropped back 26 times in a row. He probably should have benched Wentz when his ankles were hurt. Etc. 

[Nadine]

2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Post hidden above alert - why I have no clue. Have a great day everyone, I had a great response to @Superman post but oh well.

 

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Mine was hidden also, not sure why. 

 

I have no idea why happened.  Posts seem to be live now. Not sure if anyone had to approve them or why the site is suspicious of the two of you

 

[Boondoggle]

18 hours ago, EastStreet said:

His O has been very different since 2018 IMO.

I agree with this and it shouldn't be a surprise with Frank.  He is among the best at adjusting his offense to his players (and in particular his QBs).  It is why Ballard holds him in such high regard, he knows there aren't a lot of guys out there with that skill.  For every guy like Frank there's a ton who try to shoehorn players into what they want to get done.

 

Either way I think everything is going to come down to the defense and that DC hire for 2022.  If all that delivers then we're in business.  If not, it's about to get ugly round these parts.

[GoColts8818]

I think Frank is a lot better coach than most here like to give him credit for.  Do I think he’s perfect or an all time great or anything?  No.  However, I think we focus on his flaws because for most of us he’s the only coach we study week in and week out thus they stand out more.  I think if we watched all 32 coaches as closely and as critically as we watch Frank we’d see he stacks up pretty well.  
 

Just about anyone who makes a living studying these types of things holds Frank in a very high regard in terms of being a coach.  I don’t think all those people are wrong.

[GoColts8818]

11 hours ago, PRnum1 said:

Solid writeup @Superman

 

I would put Reich right behind your first and second list.

 

One problem I have with Reich (this is only my impression) is that the players don't seem to necessarily respect and fear him.

 

Compare Reich with Sean McDermott.  McDermott demands respect and this is required of today's NFL players.

 

Reich seems to be too much of a players coach or a good guy.

 

So yes, you want to coach players up, but when they make mistakes you need to tear them a new one or bench them or something.

I think players respect him just fine.  Whenever they talk about him it’s always glowing.  You don’t do that if you don’t respect a guy.  
 

I also think the idea of fearing a head coach is extremely overrated.  Think about the bosses you’ve had in your life.  Did you respond well to a boss you feared?  Most people would say no.  Yeah sure some coaches make it work but it’s normally because they are so respected they can get away with it and no one questions them.  A lot of time when coaches try to be feared they don’t last because players just tune them out.  Look at the Pacers last coach who lasted a season.  The players pretty much tuned him out because he’s trying to make them fear him.  Fear a lone doesn’t work and frankly I don’t think makes you a good coach.  
 

It’s all about respect.  If players respect you odds are you’ll get your players to perform for you rather they fear you or not.  Look at Tony Dungy.  People might argue about how great he was but no one is going to argue he wasn’t a good coach and players never came close to fearing him yet they would run through a break wall for him if he asked because they respected him so much.  
 

Frank is respected and almost always seems to make the most of what he has (let’s remember he’s yet to have the same opening day starter two years in a row here).  I think he does a good job.  Does he have flaws?  Sure.  I just think we notice his flaws more than others because he’s the only real coach we study critically week in and out.

[2006Coltsbestever]

10 hours ago, Nadine said:

 

 

I have no idea why happened.  Posts seem to be live now. Not sure if anyone had to approve them or why the site is suspicious of the two of you

 

Yeah Superman's post was hidden too. I have had it happened before but rarely. Maybe this site thinks I am the boogeyman

[GoColts8818]

5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah Superman's post was hidden too. I have had it happened before but rarely. Maybe this site thinks I am the boogeyman

Personally I blame this guy 

[EastStreet]

On 6/13/2022 at 4:44 PM, Boondoggle said:

I agree with this and it shouldn't be a surprise with Frank.  He is among the best at adjusting his offense to his players (and in particular his QBs).  It is why Ballard holds him in such high regard, he knows there aren't a lot of guys out there with that skill.  For every guy like Frank there's a ton who try to shoehorn players into what they want to get done.

 

Either way I think everything is going to come down to the defense and that DC hire for 2022.  If all that delivers then we're in business.  If not, it's about to get ugly round these parts.

I don't see any brilliance at all. I only see going ultra concersavitve in 2019, a little less but still very conservative in 2020 and 2021, and trying to ride the OL. Not much creativity at all to utilize QB strengths, but a heavy hand on minimizing turnovers. 

[Boondoggle]

14 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I don't see any brilliance at all. I only see going ultra concersavitve in 2019, a little less but still very conservative in 2020 and 2021, and trying to ride the OL. Not much creativity at all to utilize QB strengths, but a heavy hand on minimizing turnovers. 

The Eagles Super Bowl run with Foles at QB was a masterpiece of offensive coordination by Frank Reich.  His time with Indy he's produced good offenses and overcome some roster deficiencies.  I think he has mostly maximized his offensive rosters.

 

Head Coach is where he probably deserves most of his criticism.  That role sets the tone for the entire team, so when a team wilts down the stretch the HC is very much at blame.  I think he might be too nice to be a head coach.  Go back to his awkward speech with the team at the end of last year's Hard Knocks and compare that to the owner's take on things for example.  But then again he has also won and fielded good teams and if/when Irsay fires him he'll probably be out of work for five minutes or so.

 

So for me his offensive gameplanning ability and even his play calling are not concerns.  Most fans jump all over play calling when a play doesn't work.  Doesn't matter that maybe the opposing DC got lucky with the call, or that maybe a couple guys didn't do their assigned jobs on the play leading to its failure.  It's so much easier to blame the play call.  I mean what was he thinking.

[Four2itus]

On 6/12/2022 at 10:50 PM, AustinnKaine said:

Sometimes I feel like @EastStreet you argue for the sake of arguing.

Word. 

[EastStreet]

7 hours ago, Boondoggle said:

The Eagles Super Bowl run with Foles at QB was a masterpiece of offensive coordination by Frank Reich.  His time with Indy he's produced good offenses and overcome some roster deficiencies.  I think he has mostly maximized his offensive rosters.

 

Head Coach is where he probably deserves most of his criticism.  That role sets the tone for the entire team, so when a team wilts down the stretch the HC is very much at blame.  I think he might be too nice to be a head coach.  Go back to his awkward speech with the team at the end of last year's Hard Knocks and compare that to the owner's take on things for example.  But then again he has also won and fielded good teams and if/when Irsay fires him he'll probably be out of work for five minutes or so.

 

So for me his offensive gameplanning ability and even his play calling are not concerns.  Most fans jump all over play calling when a play doesn't work.  Doesn't matter that maybe the opposing DC got lucky with the call, or that maybe a couple guys didn't do their assigned jobs on the play leading to its failure.  It's so much easier to blame the play call.  I mean what was he thinking.

Sorry, I don't buy much of the Philly stuff. He didn't call plays. And Philly was stacked. Top 5 D (top 5 in total yards, pts, INTs, and #1 vs run), #1 OL that let the O do whatever, nice stable of RBs (#3 in rushing), and 3 good pass catchers (Ertz, Jeffery, Agholor). And Foles had started 20+ games for Philly in the past, so not like he came out of no where. 

 

And game planning and play calling matter to me. This is just not about a play or plays not working. He's gone totally against the grain and logic at times. Not running enough vs bad run Ds, not throwing vs bad pass Ds, going air raid on the road with a backup QB (who he didn't give reps) vs a team that wasn't good vs the run... And sorry, the late year collapse last season was horrible. The OL and DL both gave up in Jax with our post season at stake. That collapse is on coaching. 

[NewColtsFan]

What I find interesting about Frank’s time in Philly is this….. 

 

While Peterson was clearly the play caller, both quarterbacks, Wentz and Foles, call Reich the best and most important coach they’ve played for.   I think that’s very telling. 

[Solid84]

4 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

What I find interesting about Frank’s time in Philly is this….. 

 

While Peterson was clearly the play caller, both quarterbacks, Wentz and Foles, call Reich the best and most important coach they’ve played for.   I think that’s very telling. 

With those two I think a lot of it is faith-related.

[NewColtsFan]

13 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

With those two I think a lot of it is faith-related.

Perhaps.    I wouldn’t be surprised if it was A factor.   But I don’t think it was THE factor.   

[indykmj]

No.

 

After perusing the entire list, I have him at #11. And that's partially due to the fact 

that there are a lot of poor, unproven or new coaches.