WR Plan for 2022: Discussion and Poll (please read OP before voting)

[EastStreet]

 

Please read OP (original post below) before voting in the poll. 

 

I'm totally in the Vinnie Barbarino zone (John Travolta's Welcome Back Kotter  character - "I'm so confused" if you don't get the reference) right now in terms of what we're doing at WR, so thought it might be a good topic for a thread. I really have zero clue what to expect in terms of positions (who will be X, Z, slot), scheme, etc.. Just a lot of questions how current personnel fits, and if we chose to add someone.

 

Big Questions and Topics (at least for me)

• How does Alec Pierce fit? He played X at Cinci, where he had very very few snaps at slot. His highlights (below) are almost all outside "go" routes straight and deep up the field. Only one slant that I recall. Does he go to X? Nothing about him aside from speed matches typical Z characteristics. 
  • Highly recommend watching his highlights, to see purely how he was used. 
• How will Pittman fit in? Does he go more to slot? He played 20ish% at slot last season, and clearly has more experience there than Pierce, as well as better agility (short shuttle and 3 cone). 
• Where does Campbell fit? Does he take over at Z while playing a little slot too?
• Do we go 2 X type WRs out wide with Pittman and Pierce and forget about traditional Z type play? Our Zs last year played more possession ball than typical Z type routes anyway?
• We're overstocked on "bigs". With both Pittman and Pierce, what does that say for Patmon and Strachan? Likely have to move on from one if we want a well rounded roster. 
• Assuming we keep 6, and Pittman, Pierce, Campbell, and Dulin are givens, who are the other 2?
• Is TY gone for good?

 

WR Options

• Roster (likely locks if healthy)
  • Pittman
  • Pierce
  • Campbell
  • Dulin (just resigned, and has high STs value)
• Roster (but ?)
  • Patmon
  • Strachan
  • Coutee
  • Harris
• Not on Roster
  • TY (resign)
  • Another FA (several in the top 100 available FAs)
    • https://nfltraderumors.co/top-2022-nfl-free-agents-list/
• UDFAs
  • Kekoa Crawford, WR Cal
  • Samson Nacua, WR BYU
  • Michael Young Jr., WR Cincinnati
• Camp invites
  • Jackson Anthrop, WR Purdue
  • Tim Wilson Jr., WR Southeastern Louisiana

 

 

 

[csmopar]

TY would have signed by now. He’s gone i think. Sad if he goes to another team but who knows. I wish him the best.

 

as for the rest, I honestly don’t know

[2006Coltsbestever]

I went 1. TY,  2. Pittman, 3. Yes, 4. 701-800 for Pierce, 5. 9-13 for Campbell, 6. Yes for TY.

 

Great stuff as usual @EastStreet.

[EastStreet]

I voted

 

1. Hilton and Strachan. 

2. I think Pierce will start at X as the season goes along. Either that, or we'll simply use both Pitt and Pierce out wide and go 2xX.

3. No clue, but hope to hell we do

4. 501-600. He'll have more if we use him like Cinci used him. Not sure that's in Reich's DNA though.

5. Campbell 9-13 games

6. TY returns (once he figures out his market is not what he expects). There are several higher ranked FA WRs still out there. 

[EastStreet]

For those that are lazy, here are the top FA WRs left over as ranked by NFL Trade Rumors (from the top 100 FAs)

 

The rank is their overall FA rank, not just out of WRs.

The link looks to be updated, so sorry if some guys are already signed.

 

#2 OBJ

#5 Julio Jones

#7 Antonio "Look at Me" Brown

#18 Jarvis Landry

#19 W Fuller

#21 C Beasley

#22 TY Hilton

#23 E Sanders

#60 W Snead

#61 K Cole

#88 D Jackson

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

For those that are lazy, here are the top FA WRs left over as ranked by NFL Trade Rumors (from the top 100 FAs)

 

The rank is their overall FA rank, not just out of WRs.

The link looks to be updated, so sorry if some guys are already signed.

 

#2 OBJ

#5 Julio Jones

#7 Antonio "Look at Me" Brown

#18 Jarvis Landry

#19 W Fuller

#21 C Beasley

#22 TY Hilton

#23 E Sanders

#60 W Snead

#61 K Cole

#88 D Jackson

 

Other than Landry, I would bring TY back.

[Smonroe]

55 minutes ago, csmopar said:

TY would have signed by now. He’s gone i think. Sad if he goes to another team but who knows. I wish him the best.

 

as for the rest, I honestly don’t know

Don’t rule him out.  They want him to get his 10k.   It’s probably a contract and expectations talk now.  
 

We need a vet like him.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

Don’t rule him out.  They want him to get his 10k.   It’s probably a contract and expectations talk now.  
 

We need a vet like him.

I think he will be back.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

I have TY resigning BUT SURE HOPE NOT. 

I went with Coutee, Patmon, and Strachan because I don't expect a full season from TY and Campbell. 

 

4-8  games from Campbell. 

 

Pittman & Pierce are both wideouts.

 

Pierce 701-800 yards 

 

Tough questions and powerful answers. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Everyone counting TY out, the 3rd best WR in Indianapolis history. People counted out Harden out and he scored 31 tonight with 10 assists to tie the series up vs Miami = basketball. TY will be back - it is called Vet leadership and playing big in big games. TY is great for what we need him to do and for 4 or 5 games at least.

[EastStreet]

37 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Other than Landry, I would bring TY back.

 

If Reich continues to use TY like he has (short possession), I really don't think TY should come back. If I were him, I'd go to a team with a more dynamic passing game that will get him in space. Every time Reich sent him on a short post up route to the sideline I wanted to put a fork in my eye. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

 

If Reich continues to use TY like he has (short possession), I really don't think TY should come back. If I were him, I'd go to a team with a more dynamic passing game that will get him in space. Every time Reich sent him on a short post up route to the sideline I wanted to put a fork in my eye. 

We have Matt Ryan now, times are about to change.

[EastStreet]

10 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

We have Matt Ryan now, times are about to change.

Reich has had TY running the same short possession routes for 3 seasons now.

Rivers was quicker and a better short passer than Ryan ever was, so why do you think things will all of sudden change? 

Specifically.... not just a surface remark that "we have Ryan now"

[2006Coltsbestever]

10 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Reich has had TY running the same short possession routes for 3 seasons now.

Rivers was quicker and a better short passer than Ryan ever was, so why do you think things will all of sudden change? 

Specifically.... not just a surface remark that "we have Ryan now"

Lets make a bet, I will take the Colts to win the AFC South, I will give you the field. 

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Lets make a bet, I will take the Colts to win the AFC South, I will give you the field. 

You make the strangest unrelated jumps....

We're talking about TY, and now your talking about who wins the AFCS.... 

Enjoy your drink lol

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

You make the strangest unrelated jumps....

We're talking about TY, and now your talking about who wins the AFCS.... 

Enjoy your drink lol

To me it boils down to wins. Take stats out of it for once. By your eye test and studying rosters, who wins the AFC South?

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

To me it boils down to wins. Take stats out of it for once. By your eye test and studying rosters, who wins the AFC South?

 

Any time that stats or facts go against your favored narrative on a topic, you pivot to something else that can't be measured, or change the topic altogether. This is the WR thread, not the Wins/Losses prediction thread. Sorry, just not going to go down the off topic rabbit hole lol.

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Any time that stats or facts go against your favored narrative on a topic, you pivot to something else that can't be measured, or change the topic altogether. This is the WR thread, not the Wins/Losses prediction thread. Sorry, just not going to go down the off topic rabbit hole lol.

 

I can never get a straight answer out of you, but you are one of the best in here so i just roll with it. I love stats by the way.

[aReggie7]

I voted:

1. Hilton and Strachan

2. Pierce

3. Yes

4. 401-500

5. 0-3

6. Yes

 

Based on the past i'm assuming Campbell will be hurt. I hate to say it because I love his talent and believe he would be a fine receiver if not for the injuries. When you look at the players the Colts have on offense and what they could use I think Campbell's skillset is absolutely perfect. It's a shame. At this point the Colts might as well keep him and see what happens but I am going into the year thinking his availability will be a bonus. Some guys just end up with awful luck with injuries.

 

I would look to bring TY back. I would like to see a veteran pass catcher in the mix and feel TY is the best of what I think are realistic options. I think TY can still play and contribute it's his durability that I question at this point in his career. Still, even if he misses a few games he can help. Unless two of the receivers (Strachan, Patmon, etc) on the lower end of the depth chart take really big jumps I prefer to have TY back. Even if Reich doesn't change how he utilizes Hilton I think he can still come through and make some big catches in key moments. 

 

I think that Pierce will end up as a starter this season. It might not be from the beginning of the season but he will work his way into the starting lineup. Part of that is the durability questions with Campbell (and Hilton is brought back), overall depth at the position, and his potential as a blocker. I think they will end up using Pierce similar to how they used Pascal the last couple of years. Of course Pierce is way more talented with upside but I don't expect a big rookie year for him. He will contribute but I don't anticipate huge yardage as a rookie.

[EastStreet]

23 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I can never get a straight answer out of you, but you are one of the best in here so i just roll with it. I love stats by the way.

I address facts with facts, and stay on topic. 

You haven't replied to any of the facts I've replied with. Just constant pivots. 

I've never said Wentz is stud QB. He is what his stats say he is. 

We wasn't great, but he wasn't horrible last year either. And he was as good or better than Ryan in just about every primary area (and had a similar supporting cast). I'm not going to ignore the facts/stats for convenience or narrative sakes. It is what it is. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I address facts with facts, and stay on topic. 

You haven't replied to any of the facts I've replied with. Just constant pivots. 

I've never said Wentz is stud QB. He is what his stats say he is. 

We wasn't great, but he wasn't horrible last year either. And he was as good or better than Ryan in just about every primary area (and had a similar supporting cast). I'm not going to ignore the facts/stats for convenience or narrative sakes. It is what it is. 

It is always fun debating or chatting with you, hey it is the offseason lol.

[DougDew]

I won't think about WRs as X and Zs during the season....then measuring our guys along that standard. and using those terms as the basis of discussion.   Its a self chosen way to look at it.   

 

I think both players will be outside options primarily, and Pierce will be expected to get more of the deep routes compared to Pittman....I don't think there is any doubt about that...and that's really what the offense has been missing.  None of our WRs are true #1 players, traditional do it all Z types.  (but maybe Pierce or Pitt will develop into one)

 

Our guys are second round players, not Jamar Chase types, with Pierce in the deep second round at 53.  He's not going to have a full Z route tree if he already has great size and speed and hands.  The full package would have had him gone by the end of the first round.  Its not a failed pick if he never develops a full route tree either.  He was pick 53.  

 

Z's don't have to line up at slot or go in motion.  Marvin Harrison lined up only on the right side for his entire career.  While he ran digs and deep outs, he also possessed the agility to do so to go along with his deep speed....which is why he was a first round pick.

 

 TY has probably lost a step, and his straight line speed was really his only redeeming athletic talent coming out of college.  His RAS was bad, with agility being very poor, and his verticality and strength needed for contested catches being very poor....yet he made a good career out of mainly being a deep threat his entire career.   I assume that Pierce will ultimately be as successful in running deep outs and digs as much as TY was in his career, if not more successful.  

 

The slot will be a mix of PC, Hines, Granson, maybe one of the new TEs as the season moves on, IMO.  Maybe even JT as a surprise for the defense.

 

We'll see how Marcus Brady designs the various route combinations and where Matt Ryan will choose to throw the ball.   Maybe Marcus Brady will design plays thinking he has a true outside speed/contested catch threat player on the other side of the field.

 

I'm looking forward to watching the offense.

[Fluke_33]

I think Peirce is brought along slowly.  He won't start until maybe the end of the year. 300 or so yards.

 

Ty and patmon. - i think strahan has another ps year.  i don't get why everyone thinks he is a star already.  i like his measurables too but did he even play last year?  he needs time to develop

 

The video on another thread shows a pretty driven Campbell.  i think he starts most of the season if not all.

 

[AwesomeAustin]

MPJ

Campbell

Pierce 

Dulin

Patmon

Stachan

 

This is the six I want. I know they are young but I see a lot of potential. If Campbell goes down early maybe we resign TY. No clue if he will be brought back before with Irsay and Ballard showing they like to show loyalty to long time veterans. Or maybe TY takes a low amount to get his 10k in a Colts uniform. Maybe he has drawn a hard line in the sand. Too many variables. 

[throwing BBZ]

7 minutes ago, Fluke_33 said:

I think Peirce is brought along slowly.  He won't start until maybe the end of the year. 300 or so yards.

 

Ty and patmon. - i think strahan has another ps year.  i don't get why everyone thinks he is a star already.  i like his measurables too but did he even play last year?  he needs time to develop

 

The video on another thread shows a pretty driven Campbell.  i think he starts most of the season if not all.

 

 

 People "think he is a star" yet he hasn't played. Nonsense.

 When actually NOBODY ANYWHERE thinks he is a star. Few here think Pittman is a Star. 
 Pierce will be the best at what we need from day 1. I would wager he is on the field for the 1st snap of the season. But Frank is going to get everyone on the field, to bring them along.
 Patmon & Strachan have a real QB, great coaching, and a year of development. They both should be ready this season to contribute.
 

[DaColts85]

I think Pierce is the “X” for outside speed but Pitt becomes your possession guy. Campbell and Hines plus slot. Dublin and Patmon will get some snaps and I think Strachan needs to show a lot of improvement but I think Harris is the 6th. Gives us another fast shifty guy. 
 

I wouldn’t get to caught up in who is an x or z. They have plays and they have bodies that will be put into those plays. The biggest thing for all of our guys is getting much better at running routes. Pierce needs a lot of work on the route tree plus running routes at a pro level. Reggie just happened to be really good at both. 

[DougDew]

12 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 People "think he is a star" yet he hasn't played. Nonsense.

 When actually NOBODY ANYWHERE thinks he is a star. Few here think Pittman is a Star. 
 Pierce will be the best at what we need from day 1. I would wager he is on the field for the 1st snap of the season. But Frank is going to get everyone on the field, to bring them along.
 Patmon & Strachan have a real QB, great coaching, and a year of development. They both should be ready this season to contribute.
 

Yep.  AP will start on the outside day 1.  PC will start at slot.  Pitt is obvious.  Everybody else is a backup.

 

And as little as AP will know day 1, he will still be better than any player we had there last season...JMO.

[Fluke_33]

51 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 People "think he is a star" yet he hasn't played. Nonsense.

 When actually NOBODY ANYWHERE thinks he is a star. Few here think Pittman is a Star. 
 Pierce will be the best at what we need from day 1. I would wager he is on the field for the 1st snap of the season. But Frank is going to get everyone on the field, to bring them along.
 Patmon & Strachan have a real QB, great coaching, and a year of development. They both should be ready this season to contribute.
 

 

Being a star was an exaggeration to make a point.  I should have been clearer.  I can see where you wouldn't pick up on that.

 

My point is he is a 7th round pick and so many on here seem to have him being a starter.  i think he needs more growth.  And i think it is foolish to lock him in to starting or even making the team.

 

I don't know what you mean that pierce will be the best at what we need?  He doesn't play LT.  lol.  Seriously though, he is a rookie.  expecting him to start on the first snap is foolish.  he may but that is not historically what happens with rookie wrs

 

I agree on patmon.  

[Hoose]

Late to the party here. Returning to topic: 

*I voted TY returning with Patmon grabbing the last spot. Strachan to PS initially until an injury occurs. He’s all about potential… but not at the expense of a better player right now. 
* Pitt at the X

* More deep passes this year. The Colts will have the talent to stretch the field as Defenses clog the middle to stop Frank’s short passing game. And… Ryan is simply a better QB than Wentz. Don’t discount that factor either. 

* 700+ Yds for Pierce. That’s less than  40 yds per game. I think he can average that with the bigger games he’ll likely have later in the season. And I expect the Colts’ overall passing game to crank out much better numbers this year, which ultimately helps Pierce.  
* Campbell 9-13 games. This is a “Hope for the best, expect the worst, and settle for anything in between” vote. But a mostly healthy Campbell can make a difference. I’m hopeful!

* Automatic yes on TY and 10k yds since I have him returning. 
 

Thanks for doing this East. Fun topic. 

[EastStreet]

 

I watched more film today on Pierce, and also a closer look at highlights.

• Nice speed, ball tracking, and body control. 
• Nice press release
• Rarely used inside, and the vast majority of highlights were very simple go-routes
• Had one nice deep slant, which is a simple route, but would love to see these this season.
• Just not a lot of short use, or advanced routes. I think that's probably (or hopefully) just a product that he was the only X and perhaps fasted WR on the team, likely leaving all the short and advanced routes for the other two sub-six foot starting WRs on the team.

At this point, I'm thinking

• He won't start immediately, but he will start early. IMO, so long as PC and AD are healthy, they will likely start game one along with MP. Pierce will be worked-in on the outside to get his feet wet.
• Reich rarely used straight go-routes as early reads last season, so either Reich changes, or Reich asks Pierce to do things he didn't do at Cinci. It's that simple I think. 
• If Reich asks him to learn back shoulders and comebacks which we used a lot last season, just not sure what to expect. Pierce obviously has the tools (size, vert, hands) to succeed doing both if he can just perfect the routes, Not super complex routes, just need to be on point with QB timing. He obviously has the size/tools to run those routes better than TY given TY's lack of size.
• Overall, I don't mind going 2xBig on the outside, but if we do that, someone will have to take on the motion role, as well as the more advanced routes. But if that is the case, our slot will need to be more the z/slot type, than what we've seen in the past from Reich's O. Just guessing guys will line up all over the place although I think Pierce will likely do most outside early on.

10 hours ago, DougDew said:

Z's don't have to line up at slot or go in motion.  Marvin Harrison lined up only on the right side for his entire career.  While he ran digs and deep outs, he also possessed the agility to do so to go along with his deep speed....which is why he was a first round pick.

Z's don't have to do anything, but when one thinks of a traditional Z, it's the position that one thinks of motion and advanced routes. And we all no motion is one of the better tools which allows QBs to read Ds that are disguised. So if a WR is not motioning, is not running advanced routes, and is simply playing outside (back-shoulder, come-backs, go-routes), he's really not a "Z". 

10 hours ago, DougDew said:

 TY has probably lost a step, and his straight line speed was really his only redeeming athletic talent coming out of college.  His RAS was bad, with agility being very poor, and his verticality and strength needed for contested catches being very poor....yet he made a good career out of mainly being a deep threat his entire career.   I assume that Pierce will ultimately be as successful in running deep outs and digs as much as TY was in his career, if not more successful.  

TY's route variety was much more diverse until Luck left. You can see his route charts if interested on Nextgen. IMO he could still be very productive running more diverse routes, instead of possession type routes we've seen him given the past few years. He's an elite route runner, and IMO was misused by being limited to come-backs, back shoulders, etc.. And him at slot or simple slants could easily still be a mismatch vs LBs and SSs. 

10 hours ago, DougDew said:

The slot will be a mix of PC, Hines, Granson, maybe one of the new TEs as the season moves on, IMO.  Maybe even JT as a surprise for the defense.

Keep in mind both Dulin and Pittman got about 15-20% of their use from slot the last two years. More than anyone outside of Pascal who was about 60% from slot. I think Pittman's slot use declined a bit last season as he became the primary outside threat. PC, in his limited time, played slot only about 15%. IMO, they should keep PC outside as much as possible (less chance of injury). 

 

I'd love to see Hines get a shot at true slot targets. Granson, MAC, and Doyle all had about 20% of their snaps from slot, which is typical for most TEs.  

9 hours ago, Fluke_33 said:

I think Peirce is brought along slowly.  He won't start until maybe the end of the year. 300 or so yards.

 

Ty and patmon. - i think strahan has another ps year.  i don't get why everyone thinks he is a star already.  i like his measurables too but did he even play last year?  he needs time to develop

 

The video on another thread shows a pretty driven Campbell.  i think he starts most of the season if not all.

 

 

If Pierce can learn the come-back and back-shoulder, I think he'll start early. Not game one, but by mid season. My biggest hope is that they give him the opportunity to do what he did great at Cinci. That's not really something we've seen from Reich's O the last 3 seasons. 

 

I don't think Patmon or Strachan would make it to the PS, and if they did, wouldn't last long. I do think one will be gone this year. We're overloaded on bigs at this point. Patmon has been around long enough, I think he either shows something this camp/season, or moves on. He did have some flashes late last season when finally inserted. That RZ streak was nice. Will be interesting to see how Strachan is impacted by a full offseason. Dude was raw, but crazy tools. 

 

8 hours ago, DougDew said:

Yep.  AP will start on the outside day 1.  PC will start at slot.  Pitt is obvious.  Everybody else is a backup.

 

And as little as AP will know day 1, he will still be better than any player we had there last season...JMO.

If TY comes back, guessing he'd start game one. Wouldn't be shocked if they add a vet FA if TY doesn't come back.

Regardless, I think Dulin will get the nod over Pierce game one. 

I do think AP starts by mid season, or at least I hope he does. 

 

[jonjon]

22 hours ago, EastStreet said:

For those that are lazy, here are the top FA WRs left over as ranked by NFL Trade Rumors (from the top 100 FAs)

 

The rank is their overall FA rank, not just out of WRs.

The link looks to be updated, so sorry if some guys are already signed.

 

#2 OBJ

#5 Julio Jones

#7 Antonio "Look at Me" Brown

#18 Jarvis Landry

#19 W Fuller

#21 C Beasley

#22 TY Hilton

#23 E Sanders

#60 W Snead

#61 K Cole

#88 D Jackson

 

Beckham, Jones and Fuller I don't trust to stay healthy. Landy shouldn't cost much and IMO would be a great addition...similar to Beasley. But Ballard won't sign them, unfortunately, which is IMO a huge mistake as we are still thin at WR. 

[jonjon]

9 hours ago, Fluke_33 said:

he is a rookie.  expecting him to start on the first snap is foolish.  he may but that is not historically what happens with rookie wrs

It does when you're one of the most talented WRs on a team terribly thin at WR and you're easily one of the most talented. He would have to really really suck in training camp/pre-season not to start. 

[John Hammonds]

I chose to bring back TY for one more shot at his 10,000 yards.  But with so many other WR's on the roster, he's not going to get a ton of opportunities.  He probably won't start.  Not even if Pierce doesn't start.

The odd man out?  Strachan.  As much as I liked him when we chose him, we have a whole lot of tall WR's that can climb the ladder and get it.  That kinda rules out Strachan's one true ability.  Why keep a developmental player when everyone else can already do what he could possibly do?

I'm hoping that we start Pittman at X, Campbell in Slot, Pierce at Z.  With TY as the 4th WR, and Dulin as the 5th, and Patmon as 6th.

If Campbell is able to play 9-13 games, and our offense still revolving around the running game, that doesn't give Pierce a whole lot of room to make a lot of yards in his rookie year.  If he gets to 500, he'll be lucky.

TY only needs 301 yards to get to his 10k.  I think he can do it.  If he plays the whole season without getting injured.

[EastStreet]

8 minutes ago, jonjon said:

Beckham, Jones and Fuller I don't trust to stay healthy. Landy shouldn't cost much and IMO would be a great addition...similar to Beasley. But Ballard won't sign them, unfortunately, which is IMO a huge mistake as we are still thin at WR. 

Agreed for the most part.

 

Landry is 29 though. His last 2 contracts have averaged 15M a year. His production has declined since 2019 so I don't think he'll get that now at his age. Not saying he'll be super cheap, but IMO he'll get a moderate short term deal for a year or two, around 8-12M a year. I could see the Colts paying 8-10M on a one or two year deal. Likely 1. I'd take him in a heart beat for 1 year and 8M. 

 

Can't see Jones unless he was super cheap. IMO, OBJ ends up with LAR since they didn't draft a WR. 

 

I'm guessing TY still would return for 8ish. At the end of the day, I just don't see anyone paying any of the remaining FA WRs big money, and especially not long term. Some of the guys still on the board are likely to take cheap deals with contender to chase a ring. 

[Goatface Killah]

Im not sure the Colts scheme uses a traditional z type receiver. 

 

When Reich was with the Eagles I think they featured Jeffery and Agholor, who is actually very similar to Pierce athletically when you look at their combine numbers. I believe Agholor struggled with agility drills as well.

[jonjon]

13 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

I chose to bring back TY for one more shot at his 10,000 yards. 

Frankly I don't give a flip about this. I'd want him back because our options are limited and if (if) he can stay healthy long enough, he's still as good or better than most other options. 

 

Quote

But with so many other WR's on the roster, he's not going to get a ton of opportunities.  He probably won't start.  Not even if Pierce doesn't start.

I seriously doubt that. Who starts instead? Campbell? He'll probably be hurt before the 4th of July. Who else? 

[EastStreet]

11 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

I chose to bring back TY for one more shot at his 10,000 yards.  But with so many other WR's on the roster, he's not going to get a ton of opportunities.  He probably won't start.  Not even if Pierce doesn't start.

If he does come back, I see him as an early starter, that would phase out for AP as the year progresses. 

I really wish they'd give him a shot at slot. He could still smoke LBs and SSs with his route running. He's not 4.3s any more, but I'd guess he's still 4.4s and he's an elite route runner. That's plenty good enough at slot. 

11 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

The odd man out?  Strachan.  As much as I liked him when we chose him, we have a whole lot of tall WR's that can climb the ladder and get it.  That kinda rules out Strachan's one true ability.  Why keep a developmental player when everyone else can already do what he could possibly do?

I'd say we have 3 guys that can "climb the ladder", and that's Pitt, Pierce, and Strachan. The bag on Dez is that he never played up to his size. Even his college coach bluntly said it (Herm). Not saying he can't learn or improve, but I just wouldn't put him in that category now. He's been more of fast/big glider, not really a "it's my damn ball" kinda guy.

 

We did get to see a little of Dez last year, and he did look a bit improved in route running, so perhaps he can find another niche if not a climb the ladder type. 

 

Strachan on the other hand is raw, but with obscene measurables, and definitely has a climb the ladder demeanor. We all knew he'd take time. So in short, I still think there's a big debate over which we keep if it's only one. Patmon has had enough time in the system now, so I think he's a known quantity. Strachan is still pretty young in his growth/development. 

11 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

I'm hoping that we start Pittman at X, Campbell in Slot, Pierce at Z.  With TY as the 4th WR, and Dulin as the 5th, and Patmon as 6th.

If Campbell is able to play 9-13 games, and our offense still revolving around the running game, that doesn't give Pierce a whole lot of room to make a lot of yards in his rookie year.  If he gets to 500, he'll be lucky.

TY only needs 301 yards to get to his 10k.  I think he can do it.  If he plays the whole season without getting injured.

Highly doubt Pierce plays the traditional Z role early. It would be an extreme departure from what he did at Cinci. That's not to say we simply won't employ 2 bigs on the outside at the same time. He just won't be the primary motion guy or run what traditionally are considered Z routes. 

[Fluke_33]

1 hour ago, jonjon said:

It does when you're one of the most talented WRs on a team terribly thin at WR and you're easily one of the most talented. He would have to really really suck in training camp/pre-season not to start. 

Even if your premise is accurate that he is one of the most talented on the team, experience  means a lot at that position.  Don’t hold your breath on him starting.  Not many wrs do right out of the gate.  
 

I hope you are right though because that would mean we have a true star in the making. 

[EastStreet]

28 minutes ago, jonjon said:

It does when you're one of the most talented WRs on a team terribly thin at WR and you're easily one of the most talented. He would have to really really suck in training camp/pre-season not to start. 

 

I think you have to look at what we have in terms measurables, and experience of the pre-existing guys. 

This will be a long one, but some things to consider.

 

• Pittman
  • Traditional X but was very productive out of the slot in both college and last season with the Colts.
  • A bit slower than Pierce (40), but much better agility (3 cone, short shuttle) than Pierce.
  • Good route runner, good speed for his size, climbs the ladder well and was #2 in the league in contested catches.
  • He could easily be at least a #2 at X or slot for the majority of teams in the NFL.
  • He was our #1 last season purely out of need. For the most part, the majority of #1s in the league are not Xs. They can be, but more often a #2 than #1. Reich has been possession heavy the last few years, so Pitt could easily remain our #1 given his YAC has been good. 
• Pierce
  • Played almost exclusively at X, and was extremely limited in terms of route diversity. 
    • Almost the entirety of his highlights were straight sideline go-routes (9s). Virtually no short/mid come-backs, back shoulders, etc.. And rarely used across the middle (only one deep slant).
    • In short, he's got a lot to learn if he wants to be a starter or an every down guy.
  • While his speed and vert are great for his size, his agility (3 cone, shuttle) weren't great. Not to say he can't improve in this area, but he never ran the routes that would develop these characteristics. 
  • If he can learn a few new routes, but more importantly learn and get good timing with Ryan, than his chances of early PT go up dramatically.
  • If you don't have the patience, I recommend spending a few minutes watching his senior year highlights I included in the OP. Some great stuff, but extremely limited use. 
• Campbell
  • He's simply a big if in terms of health.
  • If he is healthy though, he's probably the fastest, most agile, and most fluid route runner on our team right now. So his measurables/skill/experience likely make him odds on favorite to start at the traditional Z spot. 
  • His production when healthy and when inserted fully into the game plan, was pretty productive. Small sample size, and a big if. 
  • So in short, if healthy, he'll be one of "the" guys out of the gate. I'd guess Z, but slot is not out of the question. He'd play both regardless, but I think his skillset and injury history screams primary Z. 
• Dulin 
  • A few years in the system now, which is a big advantage over a rook.
  • Early on, and to an extent still, was used to do the dirty work (likely to allow Pascal to be more of a receiving threat). Was the primary "rub" guy, and ran a lot of straight clear outs for the WR running routes 3 through 6 (ins, outs, come-backs, hitches). And someone who is both willing, and good at the dirty work, has good value as on a lot of routes/play-calls, someone is tasked with the dirty work (not really a target). 
  • Dulin has better agility scores/ras than Pierce. IMO if his route running has developed, he's got a good combo of speed (4.43), size (215/6-1), and agility, and would be a good candidate for slot. 
• Patmon
  • Good speed for his size, but raw route running, and the primary bag on him is lack of physicality to climb the ladder. He did look improved late last year when he got snaps.
  • I think we keep either him or Strachan.
• Strachan
  • Totally raw and from a small school. But physical with great measurables for his size. 4.46 40y, and better agility scores than Pierce who is smaller. 
  • It'll be interesting to see how he looks after a full offseason with a trainer. If his development is encouraging, I think he gets the nod over Patmon. 

 

 

[runthepost]

On 5/8/2022 at 11:14 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Everyone counting TY out, the 3rd best WR in Indianapolis history. People counted out Harden out and he scored 31 tonight with 10 assists to tie the series up vs Miami = basketball. TY will be back - it is called Vet leadership and playing big in big games. TY is great for what we need him to do and for 4 or 5 games at least.

Harden is still a top 20-30 player, TY isn’t a top 20-30 WR anymore