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2022 Infusion of Talent - All RAS Scores Available


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1 hour ago, Scott Pennock said:

I have not added in this off-seasons trades, free agents, draft and UDFA's but the average RAS for the roster before updating it is 8.30.  The irony in that is that the two lowest RAS are Matt Pryor at 2.79 and Darius Leonard at 4.90 (which he was injured while performing the drills). Kenny Moore's is a 7.07, JT's is a 9.53.

 

If desired I could list the entire 90 man roster (likely updated after this weekends mini camp) with their RAS scores next week?


Dont want to give you any work.   I was just curious how guys who we know can play did with their scores.  
 

First you have to look at tape to see if they can play.  If they have a good RAS, fine.  But it shouldn’t really matter much.

 

Guys with high RAS but don’t show much on the field are the projects.  The coaches know they’re capable physically.  They’re the projects.  Some work, some don’t.  But I guess the chances are better the higher the score?

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26 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

We all get excited about picks and I think even more so this year. We lost our 1st  rounder and we  had 4 3rd round picks,  which kind of made up for it. We see all the traits and  are blown away by them. People have to remember that 31 teams bypassed most of these guys for a reason.  I am really interested to see how this draft turn  out. It is pretty obvious that Ballard went to the extreme in preferring traits. What is funny is that this is a draft that a lot of draft gurus would love and that scares me lol.

When your GM is rated by the New York Times and Gregg Rosenthal (this year) as the best drafting GM since 2015 as well as several publications last year I will take his judgement over teams that notoriously still manage to screw up the draft year in and year out!

 

The biggest difference is our front office does not strictly focus on the athletic ability and/or stats - they put a huge emphasis on character (Team Captains, active in the community, etc.) and other physical skills that translate to football - soccer, volleyball, wrestling for example but also think about positional changes and the ability to learn on the fly. A high RAS just means that physically they CAN perform at the NFL level - it's all about the mental grind and what kind of heart they have after that!

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36 minutes ago, Smonroe said:


Dont want to give you any work.   I was just curious how guys who we know can play did with their scores.  
 

First you have to look at tape to see if they can play.  If they have a good RAS, fine.  But it shouldn’t really matter much.

 

Guys with high RAS but don’t show much on the field are the projects.  The coaches know they’re capable physically.  They’re the projects.  Some work, some don’t.  But I guess the chances are better the higher the score?

I have the full 64 man roster done before adding in the draft picks and UDFA's and the overall grade (without QB's, K's and P's) dipped a bit to 7.83.

 

There are a few really talented athletes that don't have a RAS due to injury or other COVID type circumstances prior to the draft like Blackmon, Dayo, Rodgers, and a little known TE/FB Eli Wolf (from Georgia) who ran a 4.43 at 6'4" and 246 and of course the Maniac doing his all while injured and scoring a paltry 4.90 when we ALL know his likely would have been 9+!

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2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I love this draft on paper. Ballard IMO drafted how I would and by trading for Matt and Yannick is something I would've done as well. Matt was the best QB available at that time and we needed a pass rusher and got it with Yannick. I personally love the Pierce pick, I think he will be good.

 

You should have been our GM from the beginning.   

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2 hours ago, Scott Pennock said:

When your GM is rated by the New York Times and Gregg Rosenthal (this year) as the best drafting GM since 2015 as well as several publications last year I will take his judgement over teams that notoriously still manage to screw up the draft year in and year out!

 

The biggest difference is our front office does not strictly focus on the athletic ability and/or stats - they put a huge emphasis on character (Team Captains, active in the community, etc.) and other physical skills that translate to football - soccer, volleyball, wrestling for example but also think about positional changes and the ability to learn on the fly. A high RAS just means that physically they CAN perform at the NFL level - it's all about the mental grind and what kind of heart they have after that!

How many Super Bowls under Ballard? How many AFC South championships unde Ballard? How many AFC championships under Ballard? How many play off berths and wins under Ballard? What is the Colts regular season win/loss record under Ballard? I don't go by what people say, I go on tangible results. I have thought Ballard was over rated. However. I feel this year, he has become   a legit GM with a little prodding by Irsay. 

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30 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

How many Super Bowls under Ballard? How many AFC South championships unde Ballard? How many AFC championships under Ballard? How many play off berths and wins under Ballard? What is the Colts regular season win/loss record under Ballard? I don't go by what people say, I go on tangible results. I have thought Ballard was over rated. However. I feel this year, he has become   a legit GM with a little prodding by Irsay. 

Yeah and most fans are super forgetful that most franchises wouldn't even be in playoff contention when they lose their franchise QB the week before the start of a season after that GM already built a roster (and continues to) that prevented them from tanking......Phillip Rivers took them to the playoffs and Frank Reich lost that game against the Bills with his egotistical play calling. Then doubled down and practically forced Ballard and Irsay into trading for Wentz - but like a good leader does Ballard cut bait quick when that experiment failed and turned a decent profit out of it imho. If Wentz hadn't of choked last year we were easily into the playoffs and who knows what could have happened then?

 

We are still in that QB Purgatory zone with the 36 year old Matt Ryan. I'm a realist and look at what could have been done differently and still feel the Front Office did what they could to put a band aid on the QB position and will rip it off in the next year or two in the 1st Round of the draft. 

 

As far as this off-season is concerned, what makes him a "legit GM" now versus previous years? I'm curious about your thoughts and opinion on that.....sincerely.

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

Yeah and most fans are super forgetful that most franchises wouldn't even be in playoff contention when they lose their franchise QB the week before the start of a season after that GM already built a roster (and continues to) that prevented them from tanking......Phillip Rivers took them to the playoffs and Frank Reich lost that game against the Bills with his egotistical play calling. Then doubled down and practically forced Ballard and Irsay into trading for Wentz - but like a good leader does Ballard cut bait quick when that experiment failed and turned a decent profit out of it imho. If Wentz hadn't of choked last year we were easily into the playoffs and who knows what could have happened then?

 

We are still in that QB Purgatory zone with the 36 year old Matt Ryan. I'm a realist and look at what could have been done differently and still feel the Front Office did what they could to put a band aid on the QB position and will rip it off in the next year or two in the 1st Round of the draft. 

 

As far as this off-season is concerned, what makes him a "legit GM" now versus previous years? I'm curious about your thoughts and opinion on that.....sincerely.

 

 

That's on Ballard. I thought back then they should have went qb after Luck retired. U can't continue to give him a pass because Luck retired.  Reid drafted Mahommes when he had Smith. U have to make a move to get the guy. He has had multiple opportunities to get that guy and they have chosen to go this way. I do like Ryan and love what they have done in the off season. I really believe they wee ready to move on from Flus and I think it is lucky for him he got coaching job. Live Bradley because the personnel is here to run his D with a couple of tweaks. I love Gimore and Nagjouke...> can never spell his name. The Colts filled their needs in the draft. I don't like commenting or evaluating the draft because they all look like 1st round talent lol. However, we now we will get lucky if we get 2 good starters out of the group. 

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On 5/2/2022 at 11:46 AM, Scott Pennock said:

Prior to the weekend we had 64 players signed to the roster, which leaves 26 spots open. We drafted 8 players, signed 21 priority UDFA's and invited another 18 to rookie mini camp this coming weekend. There are a few UDFA's that will push the needle on the backend of the roster (Price, Van Denmark, Weatherford, Coan, Domann, Borghi) while there are two draft picks that may need some seasoning on the PS (Ogletree and Thomas)

 

As you can see below all 8 draft picks scored over a 9 on their RAS which gives us the most athletic draft class overall for 2022, not and easy thing to do when not drafting in the 1st Round. 

 

Draft Picks = 8

 

Jelani Woods, TE Virginia - 10.00 RAS

Nick Cross, S Maryland - 9.87 RAS

Bernhard Raimann, OT Central Michigan - 9.86 RAS

Alec Pierce, WR Cincinnati - 9.82 RAS

Curtis Brooks, DL Cincinnati - 9.52 RAS

Eric Johnson, DL Missouri State - 9.39 RAS

Andrew Ogletree, TE Youngstown State - 9.36 RAS

Rodney Thomas, CB Yale - 9.25 RAS

 

Among the priority UDFA's there are a few guys rocking that 9 and above mark on the RAS as well (plus Weatherford who is REALLY close), which almost all of these guys had draftable grades on them - just lucky for us that the year we really need to add to the depth is the year all the COVID year players are available.

 

Priority UDFA's = 21

 

D’vonte Price, RB Florida International - 9.74 RAS

Wesley French, OL WMU - 9.65 RAS

Dallis Flowers, CB Pittsburg State - 9.50 RAS

Cullen Wick, DE Tulsa - 9.45 RAS

Ryan Van Demark, OT UConn - 9.44 RAS

Scott Patchan, DE Colorado State - 9.14 RAS

Sterling Weatherford, S Miami (OH) - 8.96 RAS

Samson Nacua, WR BYU - 8.06 RAS

Forrest Rhyne, LB Villanova - 7.69 RAS

Jack Coan, QB Notre Dame - 7.68 RAS

JoJo Domann, OLB Nebraska - 7.66 RAS

Caeveon Patton, DT Texas State - 7.65 RAS

Max Borghi, RB Washington State - 7.56 RAS

James Skalski, LB Clemson - 6.48 RAS

Kekoa Crawford, WR Cal - 6.05 RAS

Michael Young Jr., WR Cincinnati - 5.44 RAS

C.J. Verdell, RB Oregon State - 2.33 RAS

Trevor Denbow, S SMU - https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1024823&DraftYear=2022

Alex Mollette, OL Marshall - https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1025602&DraftYear=2022

Josh Seltzner, OL Wisconsin - https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1022755&DraftYear=2022

McKinley ‘Bear’ Williams, DL Syracuse - https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1028342&DraftYear=2022

 

And even amongst the tryout guys there is an Olineman rocking that 9+ RAS plus three Kickers and a Punter!

 

Tryouts for Rookie Minicamp = 18

 

Chris Glaser, OG Virginia - 9.59 RAS

Drew Plitt, QB Ball State - 3.76 RAS

Jackson Anthrop, WR Purdue - https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1023156&DraftYear=2022

Caleb Carter, LB Southern - http://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1052808&DraftYear=2022

Isaiah Chambers, Edge McNeese State - https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1017282&DraftYear=2022

Cedrick Cunningham Jr., DB Army - http://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1025538&DraftYear=2022

Evan Holm, CB North Dakota - https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1056160&DraftYear=2022

MJ Dumas, OL Villanova - https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1051511&DraftYear=2022

Grant Dixon, LB Youngstown State - https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1018634&DraftYear=2022

David Kroll, OL Delaware - https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1039021&DraftYear=2022

Jah-Maine Martin, RB North Carolina A&T - https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1003458&DraftYear=2022

Beau Morris, OL SMU - http://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1002642&DraftYear=2022

Lucky Oyovwi, Edge Charleston - https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1056398&DraftYear=2022

Grayson Atkins, PK North Carolina

Race Porter, P Washington

Seth Small, PK Texas A&M

Lukas Havrisik, PK Arizona

Tim Wilson Jr., WR/TE Southeastern Louisiana - 

 

Take a look at 40 times at the combine over the last 10 years. Now  out of those players, how many have had a great career? Not a lot. My point? All these  traits r great, however part of me is really scared because great athletes don't always make great football players. I must admit that part of me was like wow we got some great freaking athletes. The other part of me was like wow we got some freaking athletes lol.

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24 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

That's on Ballard. I thought back then they should have went qb after Luck retired. U can't continue to give him a pass because Luck retired.  Reid drafted Mahommes when he had Smith. U have to make a move to get the guy. He has had multiple opportunities to get that guy and they have chosen to go this way. I do like Ryan and love what they have done in the off season. I really believe they wee ready to move on from Flus and I think it is lucky for him he got coaching job. Live Bradley because the personnel is here to run his D with a couple of tweaks. I love Gimore and Nagjouke...> can never spell his name. The Colts filled their needs in the draft. I don't like commenting or evaluating the draft because they all look like 1st round talent lol. However, we now we will get lucky if we get 2 good starters out of the group. 

Smith is and always was a game manager - they knew they were moving on from him so they drafted Mahomes and let him sit a year.

 

Luck retired in 2019 during the last preseason game. So that rules out drafting a QB in the 2019 draft and signing one in Free Agency.

 

Which QB in 2020 would you have drafted then? Burrow at number 1 or Herbert at number 6? The rest are trash.......

 

Which QB would you have signed in Free Agency that year other than Phillip Rivers (again I think FR pushed his relationship on Ballard and Irsay)?

 

2021 is equally as bare in the free agency front so they double downed on their head coaches request and got Wentz and % canned him after a year. The draft the best went 1-2-3 except for possibly Fields at 11.......the jury is still out on all four of them.

 

Realistically only two guys have really played well and they were both far beyond our reach.

 

So, if you were Ballard what would you have done to replace Luck?

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31 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Take a look at 40 times at the combine over the last 10 years. Now  out of those players, how many have had a great career? Not a lot. My point? All these  traits r great, however part of me is really scared because great athletes don't always make great football players. I must admit that part of me was like wow we got some great freaking athletes. The other part of me was like wow we got some freaking athletes lol.

Well our 72 man roster (without the UDFA's included) our roster is over 8 overall on the RAS and if I listed all of the over 9's they are actually A LOT of our better players. 

 

I agree that the old school Al Davis drafting technique is outdated but our Front Office looks beyond the RAS for the other traits that will make them successful and it has worked for the most part!

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12 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

Well our 72 man roster (without the UDFA's included) our roster is over 8 overall on the RAS and if I listed all of the over 9's they are actually A LOT of our better players. 

 

I agree that the old school Al Davis drafting technique is outdated but our Front Office looks beyond the RAS for the other traits that will make them successful and it has worked for the most part!

Actually I think u r incorrect bout Davis but I could be wrong. In his successful days a lot of his great players were cast offs and just mean nasty football  players. It was in his later years that he became fixated on combine numbers such as the 40 time. As a result, he had a lot of busts.

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16 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

Well our 72 man roster (without the UDFA's included) our roster is over 8 overall on the RAS and if I listed all of the over 9's they are actually A LOT of our better players. 

 

I agree that the old school Al Davis drafting technique is outdated but our Front Office looks beyond the RAS for the other traits that will make them successful and it has worked for the most part!

I do like the discussion. I wonder if u took the top 10 players at each position and I wonder where they would rank athletically or how they measured on the RAS. That would be a cool project.  I think most top 10 Dends would be high RAS players. Maybe corner and lb.

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2 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Actually I think u r incorrect bout Davis but I could be wrong. In his successful days a lot of his great players were cast offs and just mean nasty football  players. It was in his later years that he became fixated on combine numbers such as the 40 time. As a result, he had a lot of busts.

Yes, early on he took cast offs that played with a chip on their shoulder. The later years he was infatuated with workout warriors! 

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2 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I do like the discussion. I wonder if u took the top 10 players at each position and I wonder where they would rank athletically or how they measured on the RAS. That would be a cool project.  I think most top 10 Dends would be high RAS players. Maybe corner and lb.

It would be a good test case for sure! 
 

I do remember the year he took Leonard people questioned if he had a model that he drafted from and he said something to the effect that he followed a model established over the years started by the famous old Giants GM……

 

Olineman and Dlineman and linebackers with 34” arms….10 yard split time on the 40…..among a couple others

 

CBs at least 6’ tall with 32” arms….good agility drills in 20 yard shuttle and 3 cone drill……etc.

 

 

 

 

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I found a few more RAS Scores for some of the guys:

 

Signees

Trevor Denbow - S - 8.25

Alex Mollette - C - 8.49

Josh Seltzner - G - 8.71

McKinley Williams - DT - 3.46

 

Tryouts

Caleb Carter - LB - 7.18

Grant Dixon - LB - 8.33

Cedric Cunningham Jr. - CB - 6.72

Evan Holm - CB - 7.51

 

Team average is holding strong at a combined RAS of: 8.02

 

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On 5/3/2022 at 6:02 PM, Scott Pennock said:

Smith is and always was a game manager - they knew they were moving on from him so they drafted Mahomes and let him sit a year.

 

Luck retired in 2019 during the last preseason game. So that rules out drafting a QB in the 2019 draft and signing one in Free Agency.

 

Which QB in 2020 would you have drafted then? Burrow at number 1 or Herbert at number 6? The rest are trash.......

 

Which QB would you have signed in Free Agency that year other than Phillip Rivers (again I think FR pushed his relationship on Ballard and Irsay)?

 

2021 is equally as bare in the free agency front so they double downed on their head coaches request and got Wentz and % canned him after a year. The draft the best went 1-2-3 except for possibly Fields at 11.......the jury is still out on all four of them.

 

Realistically only two guys have really played well and they were both far beyond our reach.

 

So, if you were Ballard what would you have done to replace Luck?

 

 The ___ Clowns all said they would have secured an early pic for Herbert.
  I'm sure the Chargers would have let us name the price. 
   Blatherers!!

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7 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 The ___ Clowns all said they would have secured an early pic for Herbert.
  I'm sure the Chargers would have let us name the price. 
   Blatherers!!

LOL Thanks for the colorful agreement, in principle of course!

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On 5/4/2022 at 12:02 AM, Scott Pennock said:

Smith is and always was a game manager - they knew they were moving on from him so they drafted Mahomes and let him sit a year.

 

Luck retired in 2019 during the last preseason game. So that rules out drafting a QB in the 2019 draft and signing one in Free Agency.

 

Which QB in 2020 would you have drafted then? Burrow at number 1 or Herbert at number 6? The rest are trash.......

 

Which QB would you have signed in Free Agency that year other than Phillip Rivers (again I think FR pushed his relationship on Ballard and Irsay)?

 

2021 is equally as bare in the free agency front so they double downed on their head coaches request and got Wentz and % canned him after a year. The draft the best went 1-2-3 except for possibly Fields at 11.......the jury is still out on all four of them.

 

Realistically only two guys have really played well and they were both far beyond our reach.

 

So, if you were Ballard what would you have done to replace Luck?

People might not want the hear it but for me the only sane option in 2019 was to tank to get a high pick for a QB. That season was wasted anyway and I still have no idea why we tried to win a handful of games with JB to get nowhere. 

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49 minutes ago, Mr. Irrelevant said:

People might not want the hear it but for me the only sane option in 2019 was to tank to get a high pick for a QB. That season was wasted anyway and I still have no idea why we tried to win a handful of games with JB to get nowhere. 

That may have worked with the fans but I doubt that locker room would agree.....

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So the Colts brought in DL Demarcus Walker for a free agent visit and I plan on using him as an example of how the different teams scout for the draft since a lot of focus lately where fans think the Colts only draft guys because of their high RAS scores.

 

Freshman Year - 1 Sack

Sophomore Year - 1 Sack

Junior Year - 9 Sacks

Senior Year - 16 Sacks & 19.5 Tackles for Loss

 

Statistically he seems like a stud and is draftable, right!??!

 

His RAS Score was a 3.19, testing poorly in virtually every category that makes *most* edge rushers successful in the NFL. On top of that you know where they drafted him? 2nd Round, pick 51. So why did they draft this guy so high? 6'4" and 280 lbs edge rusher with eye popping stats but a poor athletic profile? 

 

The reason our FO uses their athletic profile because it indicates that there is a floor that they should be at if drafted and a platform to build upon if they are smart, instinctual players that are also willing to work and hone their craft. Other factors come into play in height and arm length as well as team captains, other sports backgrounds like wrestling or soccer as an example.

 

Since Mr. Walker has been in the league he has played in 49 career games (seven starts), Walker has also recorded 12.5 sacks, 14 tackles for loss and 23 quarterback hits. First, bravo for hanging around 5 years so far in the league BUT in those 5 years he has not even matched his production from his senior year of college. We already have a similar type player in RJ Mcintosh on the roster that has a low RAS (3.37) that was drafted in the 5th Round by the Giants a few years ago that falls into this same category.

 

I hope this helps the naysayers who think using a RAS score (or similar athletic profiling) as a floor for these draft picks is not how it should be done understand why it should be! Excellent college prospect based off of statistics and tape, but not athletically gifted enough to translate it to the NFL.....

 

To further drive this point home, the lowest RAS for any current Colts draftee by this regime is Khari Willis at 6.39.......but as most will recall he had all of the intangibles they look for outside of football and on the field/locker room as a captain! 

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On 5/2/2022 at 3:42 PM, Four2itus said:

They are words I chose to try and represent aspects of culture building. I agree with the OP, but I disagree with those who feel that RAS was the only thing these young men were drafted for. 

 

Let me start by saying I'm not trying to pick on you or your post. My intent is simply to give a response and opinion on the topic of "Culture" in this day in age. 

 

Overall, when I see culture mention, I kind of roll my eyes, as it means very different things to different people. I'm not sure what it means to you, so feel free to expand. Back in the day, coaches and GMs would talk mostly about a "winning culture". It wasn't full of attached inferences or meanings that it is today. Today is seems a buzz word for character, inspiration, and other feelz stuff.

 

Case in point, how often were the Pats lauded as a "winning culture" over their 2ish decade long run. But also at the same time, we always heard how cut-throat it was, how mean BB was, how they'd take risky or questionable character players, etc.. 

 

But I do agree RAS isn't the only thing Ballard and crew look at. And I'm sure he's got a character threshold. But overall, I don't really care about all the feelz stuff. I want a winning culture. I want guys that work hard, and can play. Give me low RAS guys like Darius Leonard who got 4.9 RAS, yes, 4.9, who many questioned his leadership over the covid stuff. Or Defo who was a 3.94, yes, 3.94. Or Pittman who was low 8s. And I'm happy to have some not-nice guys who hit hard. 

 

And to your point, not every guy is going to be a starter. All teams need ditch diggers (STs and role players) too. 

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11 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Let me start by saying I'm not trying to pick on you or your post. My intent is simply to give a response and opinion on the topic of "Culture" in this day in age. 

 

Overall, when I see culture mention, I kind of roll my eyes, as it means very different things to different people. I'm not sure what it means to you, so feel free to expand. Back in the day, coaches and GMs would talk mostly about a "winning culture". It wasn't full of attached inferences or meanings that it is today. Today is seems a buzz word for character, inspiration, and other feelz stuff.

 

Case in point, how often were the Pats lauded as a "winning culture" over their 2ish decade long run. But also at the same time, we always heard how cut-throat it was, how mean BB was, how they'd take risky or questionable character players, etc.. 

 

But I do agree RAS isn't the only thing Ballard and crew look at. And I'm sure he's got a character threshold. But overall, I don't really care about all the feelz stuff. I want a winning culture. I want guys that work hard, and can play. Give me low RAS guys like Darius Leonard who got 4.9 RAS, yes, 4.9, who many questioned his leadership over the covid stuff. Or Defo who was a 3.94, yes, 3.94. Or Pittman who was low 8s. And I'm happy to have some not-nice guys who hit hard. 

 

And to your point, not every guy is going to be a starter. All teams need ditch diggers (STs and role players) too. 

I agree 100% with your thought process but your numbers are incorrect - DeFo has a RAS of 8.93 as a DT (he did post a 3.94 as a DE which he does not play) and Pittman, to be fair is a low 8 at 8.29.......Darius Leonards RAS is skewed because of who he is.......he had an injured quad prior to the combine and hurt his hammy running the 40 so while he did end up with a 4.90 you have seen with your own eyes how off those numbers are when healthy. He definitely runs faster than 4.7 and his agility/change of direction skills are off the chart yes he tested poorly after hurting his hammy in those events too. The Maniac would have tested in the high 8's at the very least!

 

Semantics I know. But I do track all of these numbers for some *ic reason! Ha!

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7 hours ago, Scott Pennock said:

I agree 100% with your thought process but your numbers are incorrect - DeFo has a RAS of 8.93 as a DT (he did post a 3.94 as a DE which he does not play) and Pittman, to be fair is a low 8 at 8.29.......Darius Leonards RAS is skewed because of who he is.......he had an injured quad prior to the combine and hurt his hammy running the 40 so while he did end up with a 4.90 you have seen with your own eyes how off those numbers are when healthy. He definitely runs faster than 4.7 and his agility/change of direction skills are off the chart yes he tested poorly after hurting his hammy in those events too. The Maniac would have tested in the high 8's at the very least!

 

Semantics I know. But I do track all of these numbers for some *ic reason! Ha!

Good point about Defo, if that's true that his numbers were in a bucket with DEs.  But I thought RAS scores were position agnostic, only weighted for size and weight....like a 3 cone for a big heavy guy might give him a higher score than the same 3 cone for a shrimpy guy.

 

DL had a good 40 at the combine.  Rated very good.  But by DL's play, I'd say that he his mostly about straight line speed and less about lateral agility, and definitely underweight.  Built to run like a thumper, has to get turned and pointed first,  but doesn't have the chops to be a thumper if he tries.

 

Someone else mentioned similarities between MAC and Woods, about neither being very nimble footed.  I agree.  I wonder if pure height just starts to take over the athleticism at some point, and really tall players can't help but being long legged, gangly, and heavy footed (to be a route running TE, not an OT).  So even though Woods' RAS was a 10, with being so tall, I wonder if it tells the story about how he's going to be able to move on the field.

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17 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Good point about Defo, if that's true that his numbers were in a bucket with DEs.  But I thought RAS scores were position agnostic, only weighted for size and weight....like a 3 cone for a big heavy guy might give him a higher score than the same 3 cone for a shrimpy guy.

 

DL had a good 40 at the combine.  Rated very good.  But by DL's play, I'd say that he his mostly about straight line speed and less about lateral agility, and definitely underweight.  Built to run like a thumper, has to get turned and pointed first,  but doesn't have the chops to be a thumper if he tries.

 

Someone else mentioned similarities between MAC and Woods, about neither being very nimble footed.  I agree.  I wonder if pure height just starts to take over the athleticism at some point, and really tall players can't help but being long legged, gangly, and heavy footed (to be a route running TE, not an OT).  So even though Woods' RAS was a 10, with being so tall, I wonder if it tells the story about how he's going to be able to move on the field.

That is why I like to look at the actual worksheet because lets take TY for example, his RAS was lowered because of the desired height and weight but what really killed his score was the agility drills (short shuttle and 3 cone) and 7 reps of 225. His skillset, which we used properly was straight line speed - but, Ballard never would have drafted him based on what he wants in his WR's. Was he a Pro-Bowl WR in spite of those "weaknesses", yes. So he is an example of a player playing beyond the measurables while there are infinite players that never lived up to their athletic numbers.

 

Back to your question though, the RAS is supposed to be position specific, yes. So you can look at those tweener edge rushers and do the numbers as an OLB or do the numbers as a DE and have a better idea 'statistically' where they might fit. The Ravens are a team that excels at finding those tweeners and turning them into productive 3-4 linebackers, for example.

 

Bjorn Werner is a prime example of a player that would have been a better fit as a 4-3 DE versus a 3-4 OLB that Grigson tried to put a round piece into a square hole. He had a 5.67 rating as a DE with poor explosion and mediocre agility scores. Imagine if they did one for him as an OLB where those agility skills are required more. He had 3.5, 7 and 13 sacks at FSU so he was drafted based purely off of production and not based on his athletic floor nor the position that suited him best based off of his athletic profile - and he turned out to be an awful first round pick.

 

This is the area where our front office is different than most in my opinion. 

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36 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Good point about Defo, if that's true that his numbers were in a bucket with DEs.  But I thought RAS scores were position agnostic, only weighted for size and weight....like a 3 cone for a big heavy guy might give him a higher score than the same 3 cone for a shrimpy guy.

 

DL had a good 40 at the combine.  Rated very good.  But by DL's play, I'd say that he his mostly about straight line speed and less about lateral agility, and definitely underweight.  Built to run like a thumper, has to get turned and pointed first,  but doesn't have the chops to be a thumper if he tries.

 

Someone else mentioned similarities between MAC and Woods, about neither being very nimble footed.  I agree.  I wonder if pure height just starts to take over the athleticism at some point, and really tall players can't help but being long legged, gangly, and heavy footed (to be a route running TE, not an OT).  So even though Woods' RAS was a 10, with being so tall, I wonder if it tells the story about how he's going to be able to move on the field.

To your other point, yes, when I watch Woods and Ogletree run they both remind me of big Mo in their strides. But, I think that is just what you get with high cut basketball body types. Personally, I think Matt Ryan will use them very effectively so long as they can find the openings and catch the ball effectively!

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50 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

That is why I like to look at the actual worksheet because lets take TY for example, his RAS was lowered because of the desired height and weight but what really killed his score was the agility drills (short shuttle and 3 cone) and 7 reps of 225. His skillset, which we used properly was straight line speed - but, Ballard never would have drafted him based on what he wants in his WR's. Was he a Pro-Bowl WR in spite of those "weaknesses", yes. So he is an example of a player playing beyond the measurables while there are infinite players that never lived up to their athletic numbers.

 

Back to your question though, the RAS is supposed to be position specific, yes. So you can look at those tweener edge rushers and do the numbers as an OLB or do the numbers as a DE and have a better idea 'statistically' where they might fit. The Ravens are a team that excels at finding those tweeners and turning them into productive 3-4 linebackers, for example.

 

Bjorn Werner is a prime example of a player that would have been a better fit as a 4-3 DE versus a 3-4 OLB that Grigson tried to put a round piece into a square hole. He had a 5.67 rating as a DE with poor explosion and mediocre agility scores. Imagine if they did one for him as an OLB where those agility skills are required more. He had 3.5, 7 and 13 sacks at FSU so he was drafted based purely off of production and not based on his athletic floor nor the position that suited him best based off of his athletic profile - and he turned out to be an awful first round pick.

 

This is the area where our front office is different than most in my opinion. 

I understand a RB will not be bucketed with a WR and neither will be in the same bucket as an olineman; but bucketing a DE from DT or a G from an OT, or a CB from a S, can get into splitting hairs when calculating a cumulative RAS.   A 43 DE like Dayo can also look like a 34 DE ... which can also be a 3T DT.  And both DEs are sill different than a light EDGE 43 DE or a 34 EDGE/OLB.   DEs can be different and look like a DT in another scheme. You're probably right though.

 

Yes, look for the raw scores in the individual categories, not the cumulative RAS.  That's what stands out with TY.  All speed and not a lot of other great traits.  And his career mirrored that to a large degree.  He made his money by Luck throwing deep, and he tended to disappear against good defenses in big games where he was double teamed.  Did not have the agility to beat the doubles and not the height nor strength to attempt a contested throw.  That would be the conclusion from his RAS chart, and it sort of played out that way.

 

Can't find Wood's agility scores.  NYG UDFA TE Austin Allen at 6' 7" ran a 7.0  three cone, which the same as 5.9" WR Skyy Moore's.  We'll see how this works out.  

 

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8 hours ago, Scott Pennock said:

I agree 100% with your thought process but your numbers are incorrect - DeFo has a RAS of 8.93 as a DT (he did post a 3.94 as a DE which he does not play) and Pittman, to be fair is a low 8 at 8.29.......Darius Leonards RAS is skewed because of who he is.......he had an injured quad prior to the combine and hurt his hammy running the 40 so while he did end up with a 4.90 you have seen with your own eyes how off those numbers are when healthy. He definitely runs faster than 4.7 and his agility/change of direction skills are off the chart yes he tested poorly after hurting his hammy in those events too. The Maniac would have tested in the high 8's at the very least!

 

Semantics I know. But I do track all of these numbers for some *ic reason! Ha!

 

Here's from the official RAS site, listing Defo as a DE. Keep in mind they grade guys off college use, etc. And IIRC, SF started him off in a 3-4 at RDT/E in 2016, and most thought he'd go to RDE when they switched to a 4-3 in 2017. 

deforest-buckner-ras-12493.png?resize=80

 

As far a Leonard is concerned, he was never thought of as a freak athlete. He was thought of as a throwback with better play speed than track speed. IIRC, they said he was a long strider who lacked play strength. And as we all know, many questioned his size (still do). 

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15 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Here's from the official RAS site, listing Defo as a DE. Keep in mind they grade guys off college use, etc. And IIRC, SF started him off in a 3-4 at RDT/E in 2016, and most thought he'd go to RDE when they switched to a 4-3 in 2017. 

deforest-buckner-ras-12493.png?resize=80

 

As far a Leonard is concerned, he was never thought of as a freak athlete. He was thought of as a throwback with better play speed than track speed. IIRC, they said he was a long strider who lacked play strength. And as we all know, many questioned his size (still do). 

ETQykkyWsAgQ2PI?format=png&name=900x900Here is the one where they list him as DL instead of DE with the same numbers and his score goes up as an interior DLineman. Not being argumentative but I would have to think that his NFL numbers bear out that his athletic profile as an interior DLineman more closely resemble the 8.93 grade versus the 3.94 grade.

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According to the official press release it looks like we lost DL Caeveon Patton from Texas State (7.65 RAS) and replaced him with RB/WR/KR Ethan Fernea from UCLA (5.91 RAS). 

 

This Fernea kid had very little production at UCLA as a runner and at WR so unless he is like a world class returner I wonder why he was brought in?????

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16 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Here's from the official RAS site, listing Defo as a DE. Keep in mind they grade guys off college use, etc. And IIRC, SF started him off in a 3-4 at RDT/E in 2016, and most thought he'd go to RDE when they switched to a 4-3 in 2017. 

deforest-buckner-ras-12493.png?resize=80

 

As far a Leonard is concerned, he was never thought of as a freak athlete. He was thought of as a throwback with better play speed than track speed. IIRC, they said he was a long strider who lacked play strength. And as we all know, many questioned his size (still do). 

Looks like a miscast.  At 6'7" 291, he would not be a 43 DE, but more like a 34 DE, which is really a 43 DT.  They probably used the term DE as a pass rush DE, rated him as such which he is not, instead of a 34 DE. 

 

Agree about Leonard.  Speed for size was/is his primary trait. 

 

Oops, I thought I was responding to Scott Pennock.

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19 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

ETQykkyWsAgQ2PI?format=png&name=900x900Here is the one where they list him as DL instead of DE with the same numbers and his score goes up as an interior DLineman. Not being argumentative but I would have to think that his NFL numbers bear out that his athletic profile as an interior DLineman more closely resemble the 8.93 grade versus the 3.94 grade.

I don't think that's argumentative at all.  It simply confirms, to me, that the original RAS miscast him as a pass rushing DE.

 

And the low bench press could be because of his 34.375 inch arms.

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16 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I don't think that's argumentative at all.  It simply confirms, to me, that the original RAS miscast him as a pass rushing DE.

 

And the low bench press could be because of his 34.375 inch arms.

I concur as someone with long arms that it does making benching a bit more difficult! 

 

But on point, yes they did miscast him initially but corrected his RAS once it was determined he was actually a DT! And obviously his athletic score indicates what he currently does in the interior of our line. So just like TY's they have played to their individual strengths! 

 

 

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On 5/13/2022 at 11:08 AM, Scott Pennock said:

ETQykkyWsAgQ2PI?format=png&name=900x900Here is the one where they list him as DL instead of DE with the same numbers and his score goes up as an interior DLineman. Not being argumentative but I would have to think that his NFL numbers bear out that his athletic profile as an interior DLineman more closely resemble the 8.93 grade versus the 3.94 grade.

 

Point I'm making, is that he played DE in college, and was drafted to be a big-end. In other words, RAS scores don't always tell the tale. I'm also guessing 3Ts and 1Ts are lumped into a one size fits all iDL score, which is likely a big skew. 

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1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

 

Point I'm making, is that he played DE in college, and was drafted to be a big-end. In other words, RAS scores don't always tell the tale. I'm also guessing 3Ts and 1Ts are lumped into a one size fits all iDL score, which is likely a big skew. 

Agreed! The 3T you’d be looking at the explosive traits while the 1T you’d be looking at the pure strength traits! We are likely discussing the same point right now but using different verbiage! Ha!

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2 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

Agreed! The 3T you’d be looking at the explosive traits while the 1T you’d be looking at the pure strength traits! We are likely discussing the same point right now but using different verbiage! Ha!

 

Yup. And just overall, the way they split RAS by position has always left a bit to be desired when you're talking about tweener types of players. There are a ton of guys for instance that at DE/3T guys. Autry for example (not far off from Defo) has played both DE and 3T. Same issues when looking at the OL when guys play all over (throughout their career) on the interior and exterior. Nothing's perfect though, just good to understand the methodology. 

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