Ballard FA Grievances Thread (Merge)

[DougDew]

13 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

It was a flaw in Luck's game and a flaw in the coaching staff. BA is a celebrated SB-winning HC, but he didn't Luck any favors in 2012 (as far as Luck getting hit). Then he had Chud as well.

I think the style of play has more to do with the QB than the OC.  Brady didn't seem to get hit any more at TB than under Josh.  Maybe BA had mellowed by then.  And the Colts offense looked remarkably different under MH than AL during 2015, with both QBs having the same guy calling the plays from the sidelines.

 

ALs rookie year was blessed with Reggie in his prime, TY being immediately impactful, and Donnie Avery manning the slot very well.  And Dwayne Allen was a good dump off option, as well as I believe Vic Ballard.   AL had lots of weapons with a makeshift FA oline that couldn't be better because of salary cap issues that prevented any big signings beyond Cory Redding on D, which was a very good bang for the buck at the time.  And Luck got sacked.

 

By contrast, we have an elite oline in terms of capital investment, no weapons, and Wentz held on to the ball too long and still got hit a lot, with a HC who is known as a short passing ball control play caller.   LOL.

 

What's the conclusion?  Wentz=Luck in terms of who is responsible for taking sacks.  All of the other variables to the analysis are just noise.

[shasta519]

26 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

For some reason…..    
 

Dear God….       Did you just try to wipe the Grigson slate clean, or what?    
 

For some reason….      Wowza. 

 

Nope. I posted facts to add some objectivity to a discussion, which I do quite often.

 

You accuse me of wiping the slate clean with Grigson, whatever that means. Seems like a strawman argument.

 

But if what I said was so "wowza," then it should be easy enough to debate the points I made.

[cdgacoltsfan]

2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Grigson had Luck for 5 years healthy, Ballard had Luck 1 year and when we had Luck we went 10-6 and beat the Division Champion Texans easily on their home turf in 2018. Hell If I had Andrew Luck for 5 years I could win 50 games 

Lucks been gone for awhile now. Time to move on from the Luck excuse.

[shasta519]

18 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I think the style of play has more to do with the QB than the OC.  Brady didn't seem to get hit any more at TB than under Josh.  Maybe BA had mellowed by then.  And the Colts offense looked remarkably different under MH than AL during 2015, with both QBs having the same guy calling the plays from the sidelines.

 

ALs rookie year was blessed with Reggie in his prime, TY being immediately impactful, and Donnie Avery manning the slot very well.  And Dwayne Allen was a good dump off option, as well as I believe Vic Ballard.   AL had lots of weapons with a makeshift FA oline that couldn't be better because of salary cap issues that prevented any big signings beyond Cory Redding on D, which was a very good bang for the buck at the time.  And Luck got sacked.

 

By contrast, we have an elite oline in terms of capital investment, no weapons, and Wentz held on to the ball too long and still got hit a lot, with a HC who is known as a short passing ball control play caller.   LOL.

 

What's the conclusion?  Wentz=Luck in terms of who is responsible for taking sacks.  All of the other variables to the analysis are just noise.

 

Very true about Hasselback. Despite being a statue, he wasn't sacked at a ridiculously high rate that year. They adjusted the offense to offset his limitations.

 

You are right about the 2012 season. They had about 25-30% of their cap tied in up dead cap space, due to having to purge old Polian contracts and from Manning leaving. They had almost no flexibility. And they used what little they had to get back Wayne, Mathis and sign Redding. All very pivotal moves for that turnaround.

 

If we are being fair, in Ballard's first year as GM, he did nothing to address an OL that was bottom 3-5 the year before (2016). And JB got hit a lot. The lack of moves at OL that offseason are a reason why I think they might have known very early that Luck wasn't going to play in 2017. Otherwise, it would have been similar malpractice to put Luck in front of basically the same 2016 OL.

 

It wasn't until year 2, with a lot more draft capital, that the OL was addressed. To Ballard's credit, he added two very impactful players and it turned around overnight.

 

I think a QB's playstyle has a big impact on them getting hurt. And then the OL is definitely a factor, but you also have a lot of noise...and especially luck (as it pertains to one QB getting hurt and another QB not getting hurt...look at JB in 2019).

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, shasta519 said:

but the fanbase has become irrational about Grigson for some reason.

Because its been irrational towards RG ever since the signing of FA Erik Walden, Ricky Jean Francois, etc.  who were the first signings that RG had when he finally had money to spend.  And you know how this fan base is towards GMs who have plenty of money to spend...and then sign FAs that prompts the collective response....who?.  Why not Terrell Owens or Darrell Revis?  LOL.  (you mean Ballard didn't trade for Russell Wilson?)

 

That thinking stuck with RG throughout his career here...after that FA period (2014?).  For some reason, the lack of splashy FA signings never stuck with Ballard beyond a few weeks, and the non splash signings are even considered smart in some circles..

[DougDew]

9 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

If we are being fair, in Ballard's first year as GM, he did nothing to address an OL that was bottom 3-5 the year before (2016). And JB got hit a lot. The lack of moves at OL that offseason are a reason why I think they might have known very early that Luck wasn't going to play in 2017. Otherwise, it would have been similar malpractice to put Luck in front of basically the same 2016 OL.

Actually, the dynamics of the JB era in Indy are foggy to me.  Did AL not play in 2016...because of the surgery....and that rehab carried over into 2017?   I remember his rehab being delayed....lots of questions around why it was taking so long, (Irsay even saying that the issue was between ALs ears) but I don't remember the shoulder surgery being responsible for AL missing two complete seasons.  I simply don't remember the QB situation in those years.

[throwing BBZ]

1 hour ago, Four2itus said:

You sure about that? I would have thought it was the G.M. at the time. 

 

  Irsay was the defacto "mentoring" GM at the time. I watched his 5:30 pm Sunday press conference where he announced the signing. He was all puffed up and proud saying how we/he had won the bidding war.
 And i have zero doubt he called Cleveland and gladly gave up the 1st for Richardson.

[Flash7]

3 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Grigson had Luck for 5 years healthy, Ballard had Luck 1 year and when we had Luck we went 10-6 and beat the Division Champion Texans easily on their home turf in 2018. Hell If I had Andrew Luck for 5 years I could win 50 games 

So it's fair to say that without Luck, Grigson too would have struggled, kind of like Ballard is now.

 

[shasta519]

22 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Actually, the dynamics of the JB era in Indy are foggy to me.  Did AL not play in 2016...because of the surgery....and that rehab carried over into 2017?   I remember his rehab being delayed....lots of questions around why it was taking so long, (Irsay even saying that the issue was between ALs ears) but I don't remember the shoulder surgery being responsible for AL missing two complete seasons.  I simply don't remember the QB situation in those years.

Luck played in 2016. Had the surgery after  that season. 

JB was acquired near the end of preseason 2017. And then started games 2-16.

 

Luck had surgery in late Jan 2017. Ballard was hired shortly after.

 

That offseason, despite Luck rehabbing a throwing shoulder surgery and Tolzien being the only viable QB on the roster, they made no moves to address QB until BB called and offered JB in PS.
 

And if they thought Luck would be back from a shoulder surgery, they made no moves to address the OL, even though it was terrible in 2016.

 

People can draw their own conclusions. 

[John Hammonds]

1 hour ago, shasta519 said:

I think a QB's playstyle has a big impact on them getting hurt. And then the OL is definitely a factor, but you also have a lot of noise...and especially luck (as it pertains to one QB getting hurt and another QB not getting hurt...look at JB in 2019).

I'm gonna walk into this argument because, well, I'm kinda dumb that way.  (To be fair, I'm kinda dumb in other ways, too.)  But I also have an opinion on the matter.

 

I think that Luck got hit a lot and got hurt a lot because of a perfect storm of conditions:

(1)  To my knowledge, they were running the Zampese offense at the time.  Which normally requires deeper pass routes, longer throws, and holding onto the ball longer.

(2)  After Reggie left the team, the primary receiver was TY Hilton.  Who, with his smaller size and catch radius, had to create separation in order to be open.  Which means running further downfield.  Which means holding onto the ball longer.

(3)  The patchwork OL was just not jelling.  Yes, Grigson addressed it.  Over and over.  (Satele, McGlynn, Cherilus, and others)  But it just wasn't working out.

So -- You had a QB throwing in an offense that required him to hold onto the ball longer, to a receiver that required him to hold onto the ball longer, with an OL that couldn't protect him for an extended period of time.

 

Is anybody surprised that he got hit?  A lot?  And got hurt?  A lot?

[shasta519]

3 hours ago, DougDew said:

LOL. Luck should have been more receptive to Grigson's counseling about protecting himself better.  Andrew might still be playing football if he listened to Grigson's superior wisdom.  But we don't want to think of it that way.

 

Luck was always thought to have a "unique" personality for a football player.  Even in the predraft analysis there were mentions of how he was slightly different than your normal player.  The comments weren't critical, just observant. That personality had more to do with retirement than any recurring injury recovery process that he stated was the reason, IMO. 

 

Pagano said this after the hit against DEN:

 

Quote

“We’re going to talk every day until he figures it out and we figure it out as a team. He knows full well that he can’t do that. He can’t put himself and this team in jeopardy. You love the grit, and you love the toughness and all that stuff. But playing the position like a linebacker? You can’t.”

 

Sounds like they had been trying to coach this out of him for a while. But Luck was fearless and played his own style. One of the reasons why he was my favorite player of all time.

[shasta519]

4 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

I'm gonna walk into this argument because, well, I'm kinda dumb that way.  (To be fair, I'm kinda dumb in other ways, too.)  But I also have an opinion on the matter.

 

I think that Luck got hit a lot and got hurt a lot because of a perfect storm of conditions:

(1)  To my knowledge, they were running the Zampese offense at the time.  Which normally requires deeper pass routes, longer throws, and holding onto the ball longer.

(2)  After Reggie left the team, the primary receiver was TY Hilton.  Who, with his smaller size and catch radius, had to create separation in order to be open.  Which means running further downfield.  Which means holding onto the ball longer.

(3)  The patchwork OL was just not jelling.  Yes, Grigson addressed it.  Over and over.  (Satele, McGlynn, Cherilus, and others)  But it just wasn't working out.

So -- You had a QB throwing in an offense that required him to hold onto the ball longer, to a receiver that required him to hold onto the ball longer, with an OL that couldn't protect him for an extended period of time.

 

Is anybody surprised that he got hit?  A lot?  And got hurt?  A lot?

 

I think it was also part of Luck's mentality to extend plays and not slide when scrambling.

 

But I agree, not having a dependable WR like Reggie for open first looks definitely hurt.

 

And the OL certainly didn't gel. Gosder Cherilus, Donald Thomas, Jack Mewhort and Hugh Thornton all seemed good moves at the time. Cherilus was a pretty good RT when he got here, Thomas was coming off a season where he put up am 81.7 PFF grade, Mewhort and Thornton were Day 2 picks.

 

Those guys stay somewhat healthy...and it's probably at least an average OL. They all got hurt.

 

C was the one position that they really make a big splash at, until the Kelly pick. They did try to get Alex Mack from CLE in 2014 when he had the transition tag, but he went back to CLE. 

 

In hindsight, it would have been nice to get Cordy Glenn, Mitchell Schwartz or even Osemele in that 2012 draft. That might have changed things a bit. 

 

 

[John Hammonds]

9 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

C was the one position that they really make a big splash at, until the Kelly pick. They did try to get Alex Mack from CLE in 2014 when he had the transition tag, but he went back to CLE. 

They even drafted for it.  Khaled Holmes out of USC.  But year after year, he couldn't crack the starting lineup.  The continuous band of off the street hobos were always better than him.  Until they flat-out handed him the job in 2015, and he was terrible.  Next draft?  Ryan Kelly, round 1.

[Four2itus]

38 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

I'm gonna walk into this argument because, well, I'm kinda dumb that way.  (To be fair, I'm kinda dumb in other ways, too.)  But I also have an opinion on the matter.

 

I think that Luck got hit a lot and got hurt a lot because of a perfect storm of conditions:

(1)  To my knowledge, they were running the Zampese offense at the time.  Which normally requires deeper pass routes, longer throws, and holding onto the ball longer.

(2)  After Reggie left the team, the primary receiver was TY Hilton.  Who, with his smaller size and catch radius, had to create separation in order to be open.  Which means running further downfield.  Which means holding onto the ball longer.

(3)  The patchwork OL was just not jelling.  Yes, Grigson addressed it.  Over and over.  (Satele, McGlynn, Cherilus, and others)  But it just wasn't working out.

So -- You had a QB throwing in an offense that required him to hold onto the ball longer, to a receiver that required him to hold onto the ball longer, with an OL that couldn't protect him for an extended period of time.

 

Is anybody surprised that he got hit?  A lot?  And got hurt?  A lot?

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, shasta519 said:

Luck played in 2016. Had the surgery after  that season. 

JB was acquired near the end of preseason 2017. And then started games 2-16.

 

Luck had surgery in late Jan 2017. Ballard was hired shortly after.

 

That offseason, despite Luck rehabbing a throwing shoulder surgery and Tolzien being the only viable QB on the roster, they made no moves to address QB until BB called and offered JB in PS.
 

And if they thought Luck would be back from a shoulder surgery, they made no moves to address the OL, even though it was terrible in 2016.

 

People can draw their own conclusions. 

Yes, now I remember.  You are correct.  We traded Dorsett for JB.  

 

Between Luck's surgery in January of 2017 and August 2017, Ballard did not address the oline or the QB situation.

 

Ballard took Hooker with his first pick in March 2017, signed no major oline FAs, and took that big slow dude in the fourth round that was cut shortly (now playing elsewhere after bouncing around).  We had AC, Mewhort, Kelly, Danzelle Good, and Haeg.  Looking back, that really isn't a bad oline if we had a quick-throwing QB at the helm instead of JB or Luck.  Maybe that's why Ballard didn't make any major oline moves before that, because he thought it was a decent oline.   4 of them drafted by Grigson.

 

Luck didn't play in 2017, JB played.  Then Ballard spent big capital on Nelson and Smith in the 2018 draft.

 

Mewhort retired due to injury.  He had a lingering knee injury and retired before the 2018 season. 

 

[DougDew]

59 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

Pagano said this after the hit against DEN:

 

 

Sounds like they had been trying to coach this out of him for a while. But Luck was fearless and played his own style. One of the reasons why he was my favorite player of all time.

I don't think any coach was so specifically descriptive about Wentz, yet he carries this label of not being receptive to coaching.  LOL.

 

 

[shasta519]

9 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yes, now I remember.  You are correct.  We traded Dorsett for JB.  

 

Between Luck's surgery in January of 2017 and August 2017, Ballard did not address the oline or the QB situation.

 

Ballard took Hooker with his first pick in March 2017, signed no major oline FAs, and took that big slow dude in the fourth round that was cut shortly (now playing elsewhere after bouncing around).  We had AC, Mewhort, Kelly, Danzelle Good, and Haeg.  Looking back, that really isn't a bad oline if we had a quick-throwing QB at the helm instead of JB or Luck.  Maybe that's why Ballard didn't make any major oline moves before that, because he thought it was a decent oline.   4 of them drafted by Grigson.

 

Luck didn't play in 2017, JB played.  Then Ballard spent big capital on Nelson and Smith in the 2018 draft.

 

Mewhort retired due to injury.  He had a lingering knee injury and retired before the 2018 season. 

 

 

Ballard said this during the 2017 offseason: 

 

Quote

"It's been fun to watch that group work together," Ballard says of the line. "They are all in the building working together. That's what you want.

 

"Part of the misconception on the O-line, that's it's about one guy. It's about those five guys playing together. They've all been in town. They've all been working. They've all been working together. And that's been fun to see, really fun to see."

 

Then said this AFTER the 2017 season: 

 

Quote

"I screwed it up last year," Ballard told 1070-WFAN AM host Dan Dakich from Colts camp in Westfield. "I should’ve addressed it last year. I didn’t address the depth. … It taught me a great lesson that we’re gonna fix it." 

 

There is also this idea that Q single-handedly transformed the OL. While he certainly made a big impact (not only in performance at LG, but possibly mentality as well), there was massive turnover and far more certainly on the OL in 2018. 

 

LT: AC ----> AC

LG: Vujnovich ----> Q

C: Bond/Kelly/Person/Fabiano ----> Kelly

RG: Mewhort/Clark/Kalis/Good/Haeg ----> Glow

RT: Good/Haeg ----> Smith

 

Like Ballard said, it's about finding five guys and having them play together. And they were able to do that. Even Ballard said it's not about one guy.

 

 

[DougDew]

58 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

In hindsight, it would have been nice to get Cordy Glenn, Mitchell Schwartz or even Osemele in that 2012 draft. That might have changed things a bit. 

Yes, but the Colts had no TE.  Clark was cut due to cap reasons and Tamme was a FA who followed PM to DEN, signing a contract in March 2012.  At the time of the draft in April 2012, the Colts had no TE.  

 

They took ALs teammate, Fleener, before those OLs because they had OLs on the roster.  The they took Dwayne Allen in round three because he lasted that long.  In hindsight, if they knew DA would last to the top of round 3 they could have taken an OL in round 2, but the way it shook out, the right call was to take the TE at the top of round 2. JMO.

[DougDew]

8 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

Ballard said this during the 2017 offseason: 

 

 

Then said this AFTER the 2017 season: 

 

 

There is also this idea that Q single-handedly transformed the OL. While he certainly made a big impact (not only in performance at LG, but possibly mentality as well), there was massive turnover and far more certainly on the OL in 2018. 

 

LT: AC ----> AC

LG: Vujnovich ----> Q

C: Bond/Kelly/Person/Fabiano ----> Kelly

RG: Mewhort/Clark/Kalis/Good/Haeg ----> Glow

RT: Good/Haeg ----> Smith

 

Like Ballard said, it's about finding five guys and having them play together. And they were able to do that. Even Ballard said it's not about one guy.

 

 

And Ballard is spoke about depth.  Vujnovich played a lot because Mewhort struggled with the knee that year.  Ballard still didn't imply that the oline he inherited was a bad starting oline.  

 

Ballard drafted Smith with the eye on him being "the last starting caliber G still on the board" at pick 37.  So what were his thoughts for RT going into the 2018 season....Haeg?  Good?

[2006Coltsbestever]

12 hours ago, Flash7 said:

So it's fair to say that without Luck, Grigson too would have struggled, kind of like Ballard is now.

 

Ballard went 11 and 5 with Rivers as well. I realize Ballard was the GM in 2017 but to count that year against him is a stretch. It wasn't his players or the coach he wanted. I guess if someone wants to say Ballard has been average then to fit their narrative, they are going to count 2017. 

Edited April 13 by 2006Coltsbestever

[NewColtsFan]

14 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Nope. I posted facts to add some objectivity to a discussion, which I do quite often.

 

You accuse me of wiping the slate clean with Grigson, whatever that means. Seems like a strawman argument.

 

But if what I said was so "wowza," then it should be easy enough to debate the points I made.

 

OK....    offer accepted.    But I don't know why anyone would want to risk an ounce of their credibility by trying to publicly defend Ryan Grigson.     But, be my guest!

 

I responded to your last sentence in your defense of him....   "for some reason"....   fans get upset over Grigson's time as GM for some reason.       What?     Like you don't know?    Itr's a mystery?

 

I'll offer up some facts that you conveniently left out....

 

1.)   Grigson's drafts were terrible.    That's why the team went down hill in 15 and 16 and 17.    The players he drafted didn't produce for the Colts, and when they went elsewhere,  they didn't produce much for other teams and were soon out of football.

 

2.)   Grigson's free agent signings were terrible.    See #1 above.

 

3.)    Grigson tried to blame Pagano for the team's struggles and tried to get his own coach fired.   Irsay brought in a marriage counselor or a couples counselor to try to see if the two could work together.    Grigson got fired one year after getting a new 4-year contract.

 

4.)   Grigson forced the coaches to play Trent Richardson when the coaches wanted to use other running backs.   They were anonymous coaches comments that went public about everyone knew who ordered Trent to start and why.    Grigson wanted to protect his reputation when the Richardson trade went bad.

 

5.)  Grigson was hated by the players.   Reggie Wayne and Pat MacAfee have been public and on the record how they had no relationship with him.   Grigson would walk past them in the hallway and not say a word.   Grigson put the screws to both in contract talks and it took Irsay stepping in to get them re-signed.   These were two respected team leaders and Grigson treated them like scrubbs.

 

For the record,  even as perhaps the top fan here of Andrew Luck, I don't believe I ever blamed Grigson for Luck's career.  

I have never felt that way, and don't recall ever blaming him.    It's not that he didn't try,  but he failed over and over and over.    But he certainly didn't build a good team around Luck.    And that goes to your point about not understanding the idea that Luck dragged average teams to winning records his first 3 years, and Luck dragged bad teams to 500 records in 15 and 16.    The idea that you either don't agree or even understand that is not a position I would ever feel comfortable with.   I can't even imagine how you'd defend that viewpoint.   

 

So,  there's my case.     Ball is in your court.....

 

 

[cdgacoltsfan]

5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

OK....    offer accepted.    But I don't know why anyone would want to risk an ounce of their credibility by trying to publicly defend Ryan Grigson.     But, be my guest!

 

I responded to your last sentence in your defense of him....   "for some reason"....   fans get upset over Grigson's time as GM for some reason.       What?     Like you don't know?    Itr's a mystery?

 

I'll offer up some facts that you conveniently left out....

 

1.)   Grigson's drafts were terrible.    That's why the team went down hill in 15 and 16 and 17.    The players he drafted didn't produce for the Colts, and when they went elsewhere,  they didn't produce much for other teams and were soon out of football.

 

2.)   Grigson's free agent signings were terrible.    See #1 above.

 

3.)    Grigson tried to blame Pagano for the team's struggles and tried to get his own coach fired.   Irsay brought in a marriage counselor or a couples counselor to try to see if the two could work together.    Grigson got fired one year after getting a new 4-year contract.

 

4.)   Grigson forced the coaches to play Trent Richardson when the coaches wanted to use other running backs.   They were anonymous coaches comments that went public about everyone knew who ordered Trent to start and why.    Grigson wanted to protect his reputation when the Richardson trade went bad.

 

5.)  Grigson was hated by the players.   Reggie Wayne and Pat MacAfee have been public and on the record how they had no relationship with him.   Grigson would walk past them in the hallway and not say a word.   Grigson put the screws to both in contract talks and it took Irsay stepping in to get them re-signed.   These were two respected team leaders and Grigson treated them like scrubbs.

 

For the record,  even as perhaps the top fan here of Andrew Luck, I don't believe I ever blamed Grigson for Luck's career.  

I have never felt that way, and don't recall ever blaming him.    It's not that he didn't try,  but he failed over and over and over.    But he certainly didn't build a good team around Luck.    And that goes to your point about not understanding the idea that Luck dragged average teams to winning records his first 3 years, and Luck dragged bad teams to 500 records in 15 and 16.    The idea that you either don't agree or even understand that is not a position I would ever feel comfortable with.   I can't even imagine how you'd defend that viewpoint.   

 

So,  there's my case.     Ball is in your court.....

 

 

Is the debate which GM is/was better?...or which GM  is/was worse?

[AwesomeAustin]

5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

OK....    offer accepted.    But I don't know why anyone would want to risk an ounce of their credibility by trying to publicly defend Ryan Grigson.     But, be my guest!

 

I responded to your last sentence in your defense of him....   "for some reason"....   fans get upset over Grigson's time as GM for some reason.       What?     Like you don't know?    Itr's a mystery?

 

I'll offer up some facts that you conveniently left out....

 

1.)   Grigson's drafts were terrible.    That's why the team went down hill in 15 and 16 and 17.    The players he drafted didn't produce for the Colts, and when they went elsewhere,  they didn't produce much for other teams and were soon out of football.

 

2.)   Grigson's free agent signings were terrible.    See #1 above.

 

3.)    Grigson tried to blame Pagano for the team's struggles and tried to get his own coach fired.   Irsay brought in a marriage counselor or a couples counselor to try to see if the two could work together.    Grigson got fired one year after getting a new 4-year contract.

 

4.)   Grigson forced the coaches to play Trent Richardson when the coaches wanted to use other running backs.   They were anonymous coaches comments that went public about everyone knew who ordered Trent to start and why.    Grigson wanted to protect his reputation when the Richardson trade went bad.

 

5.)  Grigson was hated by the players.   Reggie Wayne and Pat MacAfee have been public and on the record how they had no relationship with him.   Grigson would walk past them in the hallway and not say a word.   Grigson put the screws to both in contract talks and it took Irsay stepping in to get them re-signed.   These were two respected team leaders and Grigson treated them like scrubbs.

 

For the record,  even as perhaps the top fan here of Andrew Luck, I don't believe I ever blamed Grigson for Luck's career.  

I have never felt that way, and don't recall ever blaming him.    It's not that he didn't try,  but he failed over and over and over.    But he certainly didn't build a good team around Luck.    And that goes to your point about not understanding the idea that Luck dragged average teams to winning records his first 3 years, and Luck dragged bad teams to 500 records in 15 and 16.    The idea that you either don't agree or even understand that is not a position I would ever feel comfortable with.   I can't even imagine how you'd defend that viewpoint.   

 

So,  there's my case.     Ball is in your court.....

 

 

Great post. 
 

My opinion:

 

Grigson was fired bc he was a poor talent evaluator and a jerk. His style of GM was probably better suited to keeping Manning than rebuilding a team with a new offense and defense. He should have kept PM and Caldwell and built the team around what he already had. 100% hindsight. 
 

Luck didn’t work out bc he didn’t want to play football.  He laid everything out on the line exactly how your star player should.  Once he started to get banged up, that extremely smart and rich man said no this is not worth it. Every career comes at a cost some don’t think is worth it. Plenty of people change careers for this exact reason. I know several people that excel at retail commission sales but don’t think it’s worth working nights and weekends. Grigson didn’t ruin Luck’s career(you didn’t say this). Luck didn’t want to play football once he was rich and had a family. I respect that but I think he would have retired early regardless of a great team. 

[NewColtsFan]

16 minutes ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

Is the debate which GM is/was better?...or which GM  is/was worse?

I think the debate is….     Was Grigson good or bad?     

[cdgacoltsfan]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I think the debate is….     Was Grigson good or bad?     

He was both. Also, just like Grigson, Ballard won't get too deep into his second contact before he's shown the door either.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I think the debate is….     Was Grigson good or bad?     

I think Grigson was average on a scale of bad, below average, average, good, very good, great to be fair despite being a jerk according to Reggie Wayne and Pat McAfee. As a GM he had a very good record but Andrew Luck was the main reason why. Grigson did some good things like draft TY Hilton and re-sign Reggie Wayne in 2012. His bad things were glaring though like his ability  not to be able get a good O.Line in here and the trade for Trent, etc.. Ballard IMO is good, he drafts better and when Ballard had Luck as QB he went 10-6 and won a playoff game, when he had Rivers at QB he went 11-5. That alone proves how important having a good-great QB is. Grigson was very fortunate to have Andrew Luck from 2012-2014, he was able to compile a very good record over that time. In 2015 and 2016 with Luck not at 100% look at Grigson's record = 8-8 and 8-8.

 

Ballard is the main reason why we were able to draft Jonathan Taylor, he has been the most impactful player we have had since Andrew Luck. He also drafted Darius Leonard with the 36th pick which was one of the best steals in any draft we have ever seen. If people could go back and do that draft again, Leonard goes top 15, maybe top 10. He drafted Nelson because Luck needed protection and Nelson was the perfect pick. Nelson is still a great player and I am glad we have him.

 

One thing I don't like about Ballard is his failure's to bring in at least 1 or 2 game changing Free Agents to help the team to get the next level. I am not saying spend a lot of money but just that 1 or 2 game changing dude's. I love the Matt Ryan move but that was a trade. Same for the Buckner move - it was a trade though. When Grigson went for Free Agents he was getting washed up players like Andre Johnson who was damn near 33 years old at WR. Can't do that. No matter how much I talk some in here will still never get it. They will say what about Ballard in ability to draft WR's and CB's so just save it.

[stitches]

28 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think Grigson was average on a scale of bad, below average, average, good, very good, great to be fair despite being a jerk according to Reggie Wayne and Pat McAfee. As a GM he had a very good record but Andrew Luck was the main reason why. Grigson did some good things like draft TY Hilton and re-sign Reggie Wayne in 2012. His bad things were glaring though like his ability  not to be able get a good O.Line in here and the trade for Trent, etc.. Ballard IMO is good, he drafts better and when Ballard had Luck as QB he went 10-6 and won a playoff game, when he had Rivers at QB he went 11-5. That alone proves how important having a good-great QB is. Grigson was very fortunate to have Andrew Luck from 2012-2014, he was able to compile a very good record over that time. In 2015 and 2016 with Luck not at 100% look at Grigson's record = 8-8 and 8-8.

 

Ballard is the main reason why we were able to draft Jonathan Taylor, he has been the most impactful player we have had since Andrew Luck. He also drafted Darius Leonard with the 36th pick which was one of the best steals in any draft we have ever seen. If people could go back and do that draft again, Leonard goes top 15, maybe top 10. He drafted Nelson because Luck needed protection and Nelson was the perfect pick. Nelson is still a great player and I am glad we have him.

 

One thing I don't like about Ballard is his failure's to bring in at least 1 or 2 game changing Free Agents to help the team to get the next level. I am not saying spend a lot of money but just that 1 or 2 game changing dude's. I love the Matt Ryan move but that was a trade. Same for the Buckner move - it was a trade though. When Grigson went for Free Agents he was getting washed up players like Andre Johnson who was damn near 33 years old at WR. Can't do that. No matter how much I talk some in here will still never get it. They will say what about Ballard in ability to draft WR's and CB's so just save it.

Grigson was horrible on that scale. His only redeeming achievements were drafting Luck... which about 99.9999999% of people who have ever seen a football game would have доне and drafting TY Hilton. Fair play to him! That's a great move. ONE... among TONS AND TONS AND TONS of horrible. 

 

I will never let Grigson and Pagano live down the way they managed to ruin a generational talent like Luck. Neither of them deserve any decision-making power in the league ever again. 

 

Your assessment of Ballard is probably fair. I have some hopes that he might jump into the higher categories, but at least on words he continues to profess the same flawed philosophy. 

[DougDew]

I think its an interesting sign that when we talk about Ballard, Ryan Grigson has to be mentioned.  Almost as if there has to be something bad to compare to.  Just reflexive I guess for many, but after 6 years, nothing RG did has any bearing on CB, so its always amusing why he's brought up.

 

Its like in the past discussions about Coby Fleener.  The comparison with Dwayne Allen would always be introduced in 3...2...1.  And visa versa.  We couldn't talk about one without then talking about the other.

 

I'd rather talk about Bill Polian and Bill Tobin....Dallas Clark and Ken Dilger if we're going to have to introduce irrelevant people into the current topic...just to make comparisons.

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

I think its an interesting sign that when we talk about Ballard, Ryan Grigson has to be mentioned.  Almost as if there has to be something bad to compare to.  Just reflexive I guess for many, but after 6 years, nothing RG did has any bearing on CB, so its always amusing why he's brought up.

 

Its like in the past discussions about Coby Fleener.  The comparison with Dwayne Allen would always be introduced in 3...2...1.  And visa versa.  We couldn't talk about one without then talking about the other.

 

I'd rather talk about Bill Polian and Bill Tobin....Dallas Clark and Ken Dilger if we're going to have to introduce irrelevant people into the current topic...just to make comparisons.

To the best of my knowledge the person who brought up Grigson was @shasta519    And he did so in an almost positive way.   That’s the way I took it.   Saying he didn’t understand why so many here don’t think Grigson was good at his job.   That’s what I responded to.   I wasn’t trying to hijack the thread,  

 

If you want to bring up Polian and Tobin, I don’t think anyone is stopping you. 

[DougDew]

3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

To the best of my knowledge the person who brought up Grigson was @shasta519    And he did so in an almost positive way.   That’s the way I took it.   Saying he didn’t understand why so many here don’t think Grigson was good at his job.   That’s what I responded to.   I wasn’t trying to hijack the thread,  

 

If you want to bring up Polian and Tobin, I don’t think anyone is stopping you. 

It wasn't thread specific.  More of a general observation over the years.  The RG comparisons have dwindled in the past two years.

 

The Fleener threads were horrible.  A thread wouldn't go three comments about either Fleener or DA before a 4th comment said "yeah, but he's not as bad as the other guy"  and then the debate took off from there.

[2006Coltsbestever]

11 hours ago, stitches said:

Grigson was horrible on that scale. His only redeeming achievements were drafting Luck... which about 99.9999999% of people who have ever seen a football game would have доне and drafting TY Hilton. Fair play to him! That's a great move. ONE... among TONS AND TONS AND TONS of horrible. 

 

I will never let Grigson and Pagano live down the way they managed to ruin a generational talent like Luck. Neither of them deserve any decision-making power in the league ever again. 

 

Your assessment of Ballard is probably fair. I have some hopes that he might jump into the higher categories, but at least on words he continues to profess the same flawed philosophy. 

I am glad you posted this because I was just trying to be nice to the people that love Grigson. I was starting to feel like a butt by calling Grigson bad with a few saying he was just as good as Ballard.

[J@son]

19 hours ago, AwesomeAustin said:

He should have kept PM and Caldwell and built the team around what he already had. 100% hindsight. 

 

The Manning decision was out of his hands (so was drafting Luck, BTW) and they actually did try to keep Caldwell. He fired Caldwell only after spagnuolo turned down the DC position. 

[AwesomeAustin]

2 hours ago, J@son said:

 

The Manning decision was out of his hands (so was drafting Luck, BTW) and they actually did try to keep Caldwell. He fired Caldwell only after spagnuolo turned down the DC position. 

Thanks.  It’s been 10yrs so everything is foggy.  

[CR91]

Ballard I'll give him credit. This off-season has provided a lot of upgrades.

 

Wentz to Ryan

Mohammed to Yannick

Rock to Gilmore

Moved up in the second and third round

 

Definitely expecting a full offensive draft. 

[AwesomeAustin]

1 hour ago, CR91 said:

Ballard I'll give him credit. This off-season has provided a lot of upgrades.

 

Wentz to Ryan

Mohammed to Yannick

Rock to Gilmore

Moved up in the second and third round

 

Definitely expecting a full offensive draft. 

He also set us up to take BPA or even trading up for a good WR or OT. The starting roster doesn’t have any holes.  Of course there is room for improvement but I personally don’t feel anyone is below average. We can draft the best player every time we pick and see where more depth is needed and sign last of our FAs.  

[TaylorTheStudMuffin]

1 hour ago, AwesomeAustin said:

He also set us up to take BPA or even trading up for a good WR or OT. The starting roster doesn’t have any holes.  Of course there is room for improvement but I personally don’t feel anyone is below average. We can draft the best player every time we pick and see where more depth is needed and sign last of our FAs.  

It move up for a QB if we add one more WR before draft of right after. That could be Hilton or Landry.

[Moosejawcolt]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:22 AM, DougDew said:

I think its an interesting sign that when we talk about Ballard, Ryan Grigson has to be mentioned.  Almost as if there has to be something bad to compare to.  Just reflexive I guess for many, but after 6 years, nothing RG did has any bearing on CB, so its always amusing why he's brought up.

 

Its like in the past discussions about Coby Fleener.  The comparison with Dwayne Allen would always be introduced in 3...2...1.  And visa versa.  We couldn't talk about one without then talking about the other.

 

I'd rather talk about Bill Polian and Bill Tobin....Dallas Clark and Ken Dilger if we're going to have to introduce irrelevant people into the current topic...just to make

 Fans are so excited about this off season by all the big name acquisitions. However that appears more on Irsay than Ballard. Who is really the GM this off season?

[jvan1973]

2 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

 Fans are so excited about this off season by all the big name acquisitions. However that appears more on Irsay than Ballard. Who is really the GM this off season?

Ok.  Give some basis to this.   Any basis at all

[Moosejawcolt]

20 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Ok.  Give some basis to this.   Any basis at all

History. This has Irsays finger  prints all over it. 

[Dingus McGirt]

8 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

History. This has Irsays finger  prints all over it. 

So surprising, eh?  CEO/owner sets the vision in pretty much every enterprise…who woulda thunk it?