Brian Flores Suing NFL and NY Giants (Merge)

[stitches]

11 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

Well.. maybe I just am naïve..

 

So there's an obvious bias towards hiring black head coaches?

Huh? No, the bias is against hiring black HC, not for! 

11 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

Hmm. So all those in the past were to fill an quota?

No, bias is not determination. It doesn't mean 100% of the owners 100% of the time will choose to not hire a black coach. It's not as black and white as this. It means some owners, some of the time will have bias towards white execs and coaches... So, once in a while the league will hire a minority high end exec or HC, but the proportions wouldn't be representative of the talent pool. This was much worse in the past and it's obviously getting better, but there seem to still be a way to go... 

 

11 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

How come? Why does everything have to come down to race? I don't think I've ever had a black owner for a company that I worked for is this an issue too? I think I am naïve to what is actually going on..

Oh, lack of black ownership at the tops of the company definitely is one of the main culprits here, IMO. 

 

11 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

 

I'm sure this topic and thread are being monitored closing because this subject could turn south quickly. 

[Colt.45]

9 minutes ago, stitches said:

Come on, man... You cannot be this naive. They were allowed to interview... just... were almost never asked to interview. That's part of the reason for the Rooney Rule. To try to at the very least remedy one of the steps where discrimination appeared, without striaght up forcing teams to hire people they didn't want to hire. The Rooney Rule is pretty much a "just give them a chance" rule. 

Like I said above, the Rooney rule is not about tokenism, it's about recrifying an obvious bias in NFL teams' hiring practices, which the NFL itself tacitly admited when they introduced the rule... It's about giving people a shot, when that shot was not even available before. They are not forcing teams to hire anybody and the ones that even reach that level have gone through serious sifting through. Unfortunately the Rooney rule accomplishes the "just give them a chance" objective, but it probably doesn't accomplish the "give them a FAIR chance" objective. And everybody kind of already knew that. To me the most telling thing is people at the same time saying "Well, we knew this will be the outcome of the Rooney rule. What did you expect?" but at the same time acting like what Flores is saying is outrageous, unbelievable and he's probably lying. 

 

To me it will be interesting to hear what Belichick will say if asked to testify. Will he cover for the league or back up his pupil? BTW... this is a class-action law suit from what I'm gathering. Which means... this is probably just the iceberg. There will be a ton more cases like this surfacing if this suit has any seriousness and is not frivolous. 

 

 

Belichick knew who the Giants were hiring. Boomer Esiason knew who the Giants were hiring. Everyone 'clued' in knew. While we're being honest, the same thing happened in Indy, folks 'knew' the snake was who Chris Ballard wanted to hire, the rest of it was/is performative. Maybe CB gave others a chance in interviewing (he seems to get more from interviews than just getting the person in for the position of need) but he knew who he wanted, he had that guy in mind from day 1, even before he got to be GM. Ballard learned a lot from that hire, learned a lot from the protests around the league. It takes an open mind to see things as they are for others, it isn't easy but we either want to try or we don't. 

 

The anger comes in pretending there is equal or even fair opportunity. And that pretense is then used to beat up on the minority coaches when they say "hey this isn't fair". And while we're examining this, we need to lose that whole claptrap about 'best qualified coach'....that has never been true, and rarely is it the case. We cant even agree on whether Frank Reich is doing a good job (he is) and we want to adjudicate on other things that's more complex?

 

Even if the minority coaches were somehow 'inferior', the question would become WHY? There're no first time head coaches who go into the job knowing what to expect. There is a learning curve for them, so...... let them learn.  Again, i hope this goes full bore....the NFL has been crying for this for a while now.

[Colt.45]

15 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

Well.. maybe I just am naïve.. Nothing wrong with that at all, life is about learning. Learn history, learn patterns, trends, etc. Learn most of all that most times there's smoke, there's likely a fire. Learning to empathize with others (this is more difficult than many other things).

 

So there's an obvious bias towards hiring black head coaches? No, that's not what the rule was meant to do Hmm. So all those in the past were to fill an quota? How come? Why does everything have to come down to race? Why does everything come down to race? Simple. Human beings have a tendency to lean towards the stupid side of the living organism scale, mores than most other animals which is ironic considering we were blessed with the greatest gift I don't think I've ever had a black owner for a company that I worked for is this an issue too? I think I am naïve to what is actually going on.. You may not be naive, you may be fortunate, you may be missing clues, you may be lucky, heck your lived experiences may be what they are and you've never encountered certain things. Don't wait till it comes to your doorstep though, learn and understand what is going on elsewhere. The fact that you've not encountered certain things doesnt mean they dont pollute the waters for many others. Basically, be a good person, when you see wrong, call it out, dont overthink it, dont sit asking questions like "why now" or justifying things like "she shouldn't have dressed like that"...wrong is wrong, and humanity for all its stupidity knows wrong when it sees it because this adage rings true no matter where on Earth you go "Treat others as you'd like to be treated".

 

I'm sure this topic and thread are being monitored closing because this subject could turn south quickly. 

 

Bolded answers.

 

Here's a quick and dirty breakdown on the Rooney rule > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule

[stitches]

21 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

Was Flores planning on filling this lawsuit prior to being let go, because it was the right thing to do?

If he wasn't let go then 2 of the most recent examples of what he considers evidence for racism in hiring practices wouldn't have happened to him(probably the one with Belichick was the one that drove him over the edge IMO... it's the most clearcut one and easiest to prove) so maybe he wouldn't file the lawsuit... but this is beside the point. This is whataboutism trying to deflect and tarnish the image of the victim of that situation. People take a lot of abuse and injustice when trying to preserve themselves and their livelihood. The cruddy thing is that they take a lot of abuse even when they decide to speak up.  

 

The real question at hand is - did what he alledges happen? And if it did, what should be done about it? 

[NFLfan]

28 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

 

 

Belichick knew who the Giants were hiring. Boomer Esiason knew who the Giants were hiring. Everyone 'clued' in knew. While we're being honest, the same thing happened in Indy, folks 'knew' the snake was who Chris Ballard wanted to hire, the rest of it was/is performative. Maybe CB gave others a chance in interviewing (he seems to get more from interviews than just getting the person in for the position of need) but he knew who he wanted, he had that guy in mind from day 1, even before he got to be GM. Ballard learned a lot from that hire, learned a lot from the protests around the league. It takes an open mind to see things as they are for others, it isn't easy but we either want to try or we don't. 

 

The anger comes in pretending there is equal or even fair opportunity. And that pretense is then used to beat up on the minority coaches when they say "hey this isn't fair". And while we're examining this, we need to lose that whole claptrap about 'best qualified coach'....that has never been true, and rarely is it the case. We cant even agree on whether Frank Reich is doing a good job (he is) and we want to adjudicate on other things that's more complex?

 

Even if the minority coaches were somehow 'inferior', the question would become WHY? There're no first time head coaches who go into the job knowing what to expect. There is a learning curve for them, so...... let them learn.  Again, i hope this goes full bore....the NFL has been crying for this for a while now.

 

When I first began watching football in the early 90s, the black coaches that were given opportunities to coach overwhelmingly had better records than their white counterparts. Yet, they were not getting the jobs. The ones that did felt the added pressure of succeeding because blacks were evaluated as a group rather than as individual coaches. I recall someone saying that he had no margin for error because if he screwed up, other black coaches may have lower chances to become head coaches.

 

[Shive]

3 hours ago, luv_pony_express said:

I understand what its intention is.  But we’re dealing with litigation over racial discrimination in employment.  And keep in mind that the Rooney rule is an NFL policy, not federal employment law.

 

What Flores describes in his complaint might suffice as a reason to say the Broncos didn’t sincerely act in the spirit of the rule.  But that’s not the same thing as demonstrating a violation of equal employment laws.  Saying they were hungover and uninterested in an interview doesn’t even come close to clearing any bars.

It's all about the totality of the evidence and while the Denver incident itself may not prove racial discrimination on it's own, along with the other incidents mentioned in the lawsuit, it shows a pattern of behavior across the league. It essentially says "in the last 3-4 years alone, these are the issues I have faced as a black HC candidate". If you try to pick apart each individual instance on it's own, it's easy to dismiss each as nothing serious, but together they paint more of a picture.

 

25 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

So there's an obvious bias towards hiring black head coaches? Hmm. So all those in the past were to fill an quota? How come? Why does everything have to come down to race?

In the first 83 years of the NFL, until the Rooney Rule was instituted, there had only been 7 black head coaches. It was created in response to the firings of Tony Dungy in TB and Dennis Green in Minnesota, where they were fired from their jobs despite out-performing most of their peers.

 

For a little history on the rule:

Quote

 

U.S. civil rights attorneys Cyrus Mehri and Johnnie Cochran released a study showing that black head coaches, despite winning a higher percentage of games, were less likely to be hired and more likely to be fired than their white counterparts. Former NFL players Kellen Winslow and John Wooten then put together an affinity group of minority scouts, coaches, and front-office personnel, to advocate for the rule's creation.

 

Its purpose was to ensure that minority coaches, especially African Americans, would be considered for high-level coaching positions. Fritz Pollard was the first minority head coach in NFL history (which was during the league's early years in the 1920s) and by the time the rule was implemented, only Tom Flores, Art Shell, Dennis Green, Ray Rhodes, Tony Dungy, and Herman Edwards had ever held head coaching jobs. Dungy in particular had struggled for years before getting a head coaching job; he was often promoted as a head coaching candidate by Chuck Noll when Dungy was an assistant under Noll in the 1980s with the Steelers, but he would not become a head coach until 1996 when he took over the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Another former Steelers assistant, Marvin Lewis, also struggled to find a head coaching position despite immense success as the Baltimore Ravens defensive coordinator and would not find a head coaching position until being hired by the Cincinnati Bengals in 2003, the year the Rooney Rule went into effect.

 

 

Even when hired, black coaches have been held to higher standards, offered shorter leashes, and generally fired much quicker than their white counterparts. The Rooney Rule was never a perfect solution, but it was a means of at the very least affording opportunities that were extremely rarely afforded to black coaches.

 

25 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

I'm sure this topic and thread are being monitored closing because this subject could turn south quickly. 

[chad72]

4 hours ago, stitches said:

 

 

This has the potential to snowball like Donald Sterling in the NBA leading to an alternate owner for the Dolphins, IMO.

[Colt.45]

1 minute ago, chad72 said:

 

This has the potential to snowball like Donald Sterling in the NBA leading to an alternate owner for the Dolphins, IMO.

You'd think so however the NFL has some 'special' owners. I don't know if that'll happen. Arguably the Washington owner should have been binned for what his team did to those girls. The league hid the findings with good reason.

I dont think Ross goes anywhere because this issue isn't limited to just Miami.

[RollerColt]

9 hours ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

McDaniels has been the OC for the most winningest franchise in last decade or more. OC's & DC's usually are prime head coaching candidates when they've been with successful organizations, as I'm sure you know. I'm sure him weaseling out of taking the colts job Is what you are referring too. He no doubt will always be hated here. But elsewhere, things fade away with time and he has a good resume. 

I'd hardly say he was the architect of all the success NE enjoyed. Unless we're saying Brady wouldn't have improved without his guidance, I feel he was more along for the ride. 

 

I don't think the Patriot Way is going to equate well for Las Vegas. 

[throwing BBZ]

1 hour ago, Colt.45 said:

 

 

 In 1988 i made a decision to cut through the Cicero section of Chicago. 

 It was a blazing 90+ noontime day. Within a few minutes i was saying uh oh, this was a mistake. It was block after block of boarded up, devasted looking buildings, bodies lying in the shaded doorways, hopeless looking people standing around on the street corners, i felt very bad for those stuck in this lifesyle. 

 When i came back to my little white hometown i told many of what i had witnessed. Telling just how bad these people had it and that someday they just wouldn't take it anymore.
 Our society has a long history of favoritism, treating some people like they are lesser. Our actions can cause a reaction, and the reaction so often is much greater than the actor thinks is reasonable. And the reactor says tough luck, i'm not taking it anymore, it's on buddy! 
 We have seen great changes 'in general' since MLK's crusade and Lyndon Johnsons works.  

  Now we have unbridled legal attacks to our system that will take us who knows where. The bad side of town of Chicago has only gotten much worse, and that is much more important, certainly sadder, than a few dozen jobs not being given in the NFL. 

 What is tough about Flores making this Huge attack on the NFL Now is one can see with our eyes and ears how much notice the NFL, and the players have given to the justice, and fairness issues. What is intended is to improve awareness and to change peoples thoughts on fairness. It takes time for that to work.

 Flores has chosen to knock the door down with a battering ram.

 That gets real ugly sometimes!
 

[chad72]

7 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

I'd hardly say he was the architect of all the success NE enjoyed. Unless we're saying Brady wouldn't have improved without his guidance, I feel he was more along for the ride. 

 

I don't think the Patriot Way is going to equate well for Las Vegas. 

 

More like Patriot slots in small doses.  

[AwesomeAustin]

I don’t think race had anything to do with his firing or lack of being hired.  Saying it’s race is how he is getting people to listen to how unfairly he was treated.  Not necessarily ethical but sometimes you just need to get people’s attention and I can get behind it.  
 

It is nonsense he had to clash with ownership and management and he probably was fired for being insubordinate. Yeah it’s Miami’s right but just bc you can doesn’t mean you should.  There will be consequences of their decisions.  
 

I get his frustration and totally blowing this up. He appeared to do a good job despite fighting poor leadership.  He had several interviews lined up and I’m sure was devastated when he found out he was only there to fulfill the Rooney Rule. This may very well be him saying I’m done with this nonsense and I’m not participating anymore.  That’s what I do when something is absolute garbage.  Get away from it and don’t look back. 

[Shive]

MOD NOTE

This thread will be closely monitored and moderated, as this forum has shown to not be able to consistently have productive discussions around the topic of racial justice/issues. Opposing viewpoints will absolutely be allowed, but posts that could cause the discussion to get enflamed will be removed at the mod team's discretion. This isn't to shape one narrative or another, but to ensure this thread is able to stay open and the topic discussed.

[RollerColt]

2 minutes ago, Shive said:

MOD NOTE

This thread will be closely monitored and moderated, as this forum has shown to not be able to consistently have productive discussions around the topic of racial justice/issues. Opposing viewpoints will absolutely be allowed, but posts that could cause the discussion to get enflamed will be removed at the mod team's discretion. This isn't to shape one narrative or another, but to ensure this thread is able to stay open and the topic discussed.

[Chrisaaron1023]

14 minutes ago, Shive said:

MOD NOTE

This thread will be closely monitored and moderated, as this forum has shown to not be able to consistently have productive discussions around the topic of racial justice/issues. Opposing viewpoints will absolutely be allowed, but posts that could cause the discussion to get enflamed will be removed at the mod team's discretion. This isn't to shape one narrative or another, but to ensure this thread is able to stay open and the topic discussed.

[jvan1973]

1 hour ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 In 1988 i made a decision to cut through the Cicero section of Chicago. 

 It was a blazing 90+ noontime day. Within a few minutes i was saying uh oh, this was a mistake. It was block after block of boarded up, devasted looking buildings, bodies lying in the shaded doorways, hopeless looking people standing around on the street corners, i felt very bad for those stuck in this lifesyle. 

 When i came back to my little white hometown i told many of what i had witnessed. Telling just how bad these people had it and that someday they just wouldn't take it anymore.
 Our society has a long history of favoritism, treating some people like they are lesser. Our actions can cause a reaction, and the reaction so often is much greater than the actor thinks is reasonable. And the reactor says tough luck, i'm not taking it anymore, it's on buddy! 
 We have seen great changes 'in general' since MLK's crusade and Lyndon Johnsons works.  

  Now we have unbridled legal attacks to our system that will take us who knows where. The bad side of town of Chicago has only gotten much worse, and that is much more important, certainly sadder, than a few dozen jobs not being given in the NFL. 

 What is tough about Flores making this Huge attack on the NFL Now is one can see with our eyes and ears how much notice the NFL, and the players have given to the justice, and fairness issues. What is intended is to improve awareness and to change peoples thoughts on fairness. It takes time for that to work.

 Flores has chosen to knock the door down with a battering ram.

 That gets real ugly sometimes!
 

I don't think you were in Cicero.    Cicero is a very industrial part of town.   One of the safest neighborhoods in Chicago

[RollerColt]

3 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

I don't think you were in Cicero.    Cicero is a very industrial part of town.   One of the safest neighborhoods in Chicago

From my experience, I was always taught to stay away from the south side and parts of the west side as much as possible. 

[throwing BBZ]

1 minute ago, jvan1973 said:

I don't think you were in Cicero.    Cicero is a very industrial part of town.   One of the safest neighborhoods in Chicago

 

 It was a disaster area in 1988. It made me think of a bombed WW2 city in Germany. I have watched several times a documentary on PBS showing the white flight from Cicero in the 60's. It is a sad commentary on the human nature of prejudice. MLK, Mandela, and many other brave people paid a heavy price in the fight for equality. 
 Unfortunately, these many fights for equality and rights has been a big source of creating it's own divisiveness. We are slogging our way through the muck and all of these attempts to change things has our youth totally messed up. Their mental breakdown is it's own epidemic.
 
 

[Colt.45]

1 hour ago, AwesomeAustin said:

I don’t think race had anything to do with his firing or lack of being hired.  Saying it’s race is how he is getting people to listen to how unfairly he was treated.  Not necessarily ethical but sometimes you just need to get people’s attention and I can get behind it.  
 

It is nonsense he had to clash with ownership and management and he probably was fired for being insubordinate. Yeah it’s Miami’s right but just bc you can doesn’t mean you should.  There will be consequences of their decisions.  
 

I get his frustration and totally blowing this up. He appeared to do a good job despite fighting poor leadership.  He had several interviews lined up and I’m sure was devastated when he found out he was only there to fulfill the Rooney Rule. This may very well be him saying I’m done with this nonsense and I’m not participating anymore.  That’s what I do when something is absolute garbage.  Get away from it and don’t look back. 

I get the point you're making in your first paragraph, and i think the other points carry weight as well.

On that first paragraph though, that statement is similar to the statement made by @Chrisaaron1023

i.e. why does everything have to be racial.

 

Well, that's a million dollar question but all we can do is look at facts. The common thread tends to be race. What other conclusion do you draw? That he was hard to work with? Really? Or that his ownership didn't like him and that the Broncos wanted someone else anyway, and that he was an intractable character? That can all be true and exist alongside racism. The NFL doesnt exactly have a history that helps it in this case.

Honestly, if the NFL were a person, it'd be a well known bigot so why would you give the benefit of doubt to a known bigot who will do everything but actually change? 

 

Anyway, fair points. We ALL can get better. We ALL can be more empathetic. When this comes out, the reaction shouldn't be that the guy is lying or that he is coming out with it now for personal gain or because he is a jilted lover...the reaction should be THE NFL MUST DO BETTER. None of what he has alleged is news, not to the league, not to the players, not to the media, not to many fans. 

[Colt.45]

10 hours ago, Four2itus said:

I find that hypocrisy is at an all time high in this country, No, this is not an agreement or disagreement with Mr Flores's actions. I just see folks pointing fingers at percentages over here......yet choosing to ignore percentages over there.

 

https://theundefeated.com/features/the-nfls-racial-divide/

 

In this article, there is a graph that shows all positions in the NFL (players) and whether they are white or black. You can pull the slider on the left and it changes over the years. It sure looks like a huge racial disparity in every position except for G, T, and TE. Why would racial disparity in one arena bother....but not in the other arena? Please do not take this question as a statement of my opinion. 

 

My only opinion is that I dislike hypocrisy. 

The player issue is another corner of the room  that we need to get to as a society. Look at the debates that still surround minority QBs, the questions on intelligence, the casual rubbish that gets thrown around when the league's best WR is not minority. The media and ownership have serious issues to answer to.

 

In this particular case, i think we can boil it down to authority and power. The owners are the most powerful part of the league. When it comes to actual football, that power resides with the GM/coach....how many of those folks are minorities? In this case, i think that's why the issue stands tall, it's a power issue. Power = authority = money = Future Shaping.

 

I like the exercise you've raised here.

[DougDew]

Got fired for apparently not getting along with his boss and his QB.  Seems like a bit of a hot head or an unlikeable attitude.  Maybe he has one of those weird ideas that he's better than he is, and others are responsible for holding him down.

 

The NFL should probably review the reason he got hired by MIA in the first place.  He didn't seem all that qualified compared to other candidates at the time.  Maybe it turns out that he wasn't all that qualified.

[jvan1973]

23 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Got fired for apparently not getting along with his boss and his QB.  Seems like a bit of a hot head or an unlikeable attitude.  Maybe he has one of those weird ideas that he's better than he is, and others are responsible for holding him down.

 

The NFL should probably review the reason he got hired by MIA in the first place.  He didn't seem all that qualified compared to other candidates at the time.  Maybe it turns out that he wasn't all that qualified.

Might want to wait and see what kind of proof he brings forward.   If the owner was bribing him to lose and a coach was hired before his interview,  this is a huge story

[Colt.45]

15 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Got fired for apparently not getting along with his boss and his QB.  Seems like a bit of a hot head or an unlikeable attitude.  Maybe he has one of those weird ideas that he's better than he is, and others are responsible for holding him down.

 

The NFL should probably review the reason he got hired by MIA in the first place.  He didn't seem all that qualified compared to other candidates at the time.  Maybe it turns out that he wasn't all that qualified.

 

These all seem like fair points. Lets examine them more closely. I had a small discussion with @EastStreet the other day where i asked these character questions (ie the notion of him being difficult) about Flores and questioned whether he'd fit in Indy with Reich so this exercise we're going on isnt me rehashing things.

Now...

 

If you dont get along with your bosses, should you be fired? Well, i think in many cases that's likely the end result. However IF you dont get along with your boss because you refused to break the law, should you be fired for that? Getting forced to meet with Brady when it's against the rules? Getting told to lose games i.e. gamble when it's against the law? Getting chastised for telling the GM that you wanted Herbert not TUA? That's bad? There's a reason the Dolphins are as bad as they are and it has nothing to do with Flores.

 

You are right, the NFL could and should review how this man got the job except the problem with that is you'd open up the proverbial can of worms. You think many of the coaches getting jobs before him have been more qualified? Or that the minority coaches left out of the hiring cycles today are any less qualified than those folks who've got jobs? 

 

A common theme with many of the minority coaches who even get hired at all is that they're 'setup guys' i.e. you bring them in so they 'tank' for the next guy who's the one you really want. They lose then your team is stacked with picks and then you hire the person you really want, and you've checked a minority box as well. Yes, that's a thing. See the David Culley example. And if you don't believe this happens, it's not limited to football. In the corporate world, some research was done a few years back on female CEOs. Turns out companies are loath hiring female CEOs (of course that applies to minorities as well but this study honed in on women) and in many cases, the companies who did hire them would do so as a last resort, i.e. they would bring in women when the ship was already torpedoed. Is that fair practice? 

 

I saved the comment about him thinking he is better than he is for last. That's an insulting comment whether you intend it to be so or not. He took over a team that was GUTTED. Fans of the team and the sport in general all saw what was happening, we all commented on the Fins fire sale, this coach took over a franchise that had a recent history of being rotten, led them to a losing season (that was more competitive than most expected) then finished above .500 the next two seasons. He thinks too highly of himself? Really? Oh, and he did all that with bean porridge at QB. We need to be more empathetic.

 

 

[Tsarquise]

9 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

The Rooney Rule is NOT the problem.   It may not be an effective solution to a problem you don’t quite seem to understand.  
 

Before the RR, minority coaches couldn’t even get an interview for a HC job, much less the actual job.   They pointed out you can’t get the job without getting interviewed.   
 

  The problem is 32 NFL owners are white.   They want to hire a HC who looks like them and sounds like them.   
 

That isn’t a RR rule problem.  
 

The other problem is not enough minority coaches are becoming coordinators.   The league has recently tried to incentivize hiring minority coaches as coordinators by giving the team that picks a minority coordinator extra draft picks.   The hope is that will help in the long run.  
 

It may not be a perfect solution and more will have to be done,  but the problems are elsewhere.  

 

 

"The RR isn’t why minority coaches aren’t getting the job."

 

"The RR is not a problem."

 

It absolutely is a problem, but not the reason as to why there aren't as many black coaches in the NFL, which no one stated. He just highlighted the problem of the Rooney rule, and you just completely ignored and disregarded it. Then you condensceningly told him he doesn't understand the situation. This is not some esoteric subject matter here in the United States. It is ubiquitous and we are inundated with race and it's history constantly. He understands it perfectly. It seem like you don't understand. The point is progress, and there is no progress when minorities are being treated in any other way but equal to everyone else. No one wants to be interviewed because of their phenotype or "race".  

 

You're only focused on the Rooney rules manifest function, and you have not gone passed the initial stage of analysis of the matter. It's latent function creates feelings of inferiority, humility,  resentfulness, insecurity and alienation for the minority. All of which is exhibited by the Flores situation perectly and described by the poster. It also forces people to view others through the lens of race even more, which strengthens racial division and solidifies and validates the erroneous social construct that is race. 

 

The solution is not some mere simple race based rule –which is inherently racist– to try to force equality of outcome; the solution starts with an attempt at changing American culture by devaluing and discarding the concept of race through educating our society about how nonsensical race is, and elucidating the fact that it has no biological basis. 

 

And the only thing that changes bias is the success of minorities over time which has been brought about by equality of opportunity. As a result, no minority group will be seen as a monolith, especially not a negative one. 

 

Owners should hire who they want. People need stop keeping racial tabs and statistics. It only create more racial tension, tribalism, and reinforces racial demarcations. 

 

Tony Dungy didn't need the Rooney rule to be hired. He was exceptional, thus merit should exclusively get one hired and merley even considered. 

[Tsarquise]

4 hours ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

Sorry you must forgive me, I've only been paying attention to football since 2003. But minorities weren't allowed to interview? 

 

I feel like this is a direct correlation to that rule. Maybe its just me, but who wants to be a token? I feel for Flores.. If I ever walked into an interview only because the color of my skin I'd feel horrible... "You got the job, because we feel you would be an excell.... well because you're black and it's the right thing to do!" 

 

That's how I interpret the Rooney Rule to be,,

This is not exactly the effect of the Rooney rule, it just provides minorities an opportunity to get interviewed who theoretically wouldn't get interviewed otherwise. But the way things are going, I wouldn't be surprise if they try to force hires based on race, which would be horrible. 

 

In your bolded sentence, replace "job" with "interview" and then it will be accurate.  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Even Flores mentioned on cbs this morning the Rooney rule is flawed.

[runthepost]

Bill knowing who the Giants were hiring days before Flores interview is going to be the key point in this 

[smittywerb]

13 hours ago, Tsarquise said:

Ummm what does that look like? 

by hiring the man for the job and not letting go coaches who perform well and hold on to coaches who don’t.

 

it’s easy.  The fact that Jim Caldwell and Brian Flores don’t have HC jobs is shocking.  But yeah, let’s keep running the same coaches who have shown they can’t get it done.

 

actually, answer that for me.  Why hasn’t Brian Flores been hired yet?  Why is Brian being brought in for an interview and the organization has made its mind up to the point even BB knows who’s getting the job? 

[Shive]

13 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

Even Flores mentioned on cbs this morning the Rooney rule is flawed.

Nobody argued that it wasn't flawed. It did, however, at least make some semblance of progress in getting minority coach in the door to interview for HC positions. It took Dungy about 16 years from when Chuck Noll was advocating for teams to hire him as a HC for him to actually get the job.

 

It doesn't fix the blatant lack of minority coaches, but it was a step. You can't force owners to not have racial biases and hire based on those, but you can at least afford these coaches the opportunity to interview, which wasn't common at all prior to the Rooney Rule.

 

As the saying goes, the enemy of progress is perfection. If you do something that moves the needle in the right direction, that's progress, even if it isn't a perfect solution. If you wait around and don't take action because something isn't perfect, you never get progress.

[smittywerb]

23 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

Even Flores mentioned on cbs this morning the Rooney rule is flawed.

it is, all organizations have to do is show face.  Which is probably what the giants were doing.  

[Shive]

6 minutes ago, runthepost said:

Bill knowing who the Giants were hiring days before Flores interview is going to be the key point in this 

That and what can be uncovered about any discussions Ross had with Flores trying to bribe him to tank.

 

I've seen that Bill has deep ties with the Mara family, so it would stand to reason that he got inside info ahead of time.

[luv_pony_express]

4 hours ago, Shive said:

It's all about the totality of the evidence and while the Denver incident itself may not prove racial discrimination on it's own, along with the other incidents mentioned in the lawsuit, it shows a pattern of behavior across the league. It essentially says "in the last 3-4 years alone, these are the issues I have faced as a black HC candidate". If you try to pick apart each individual instance on it's own, it's easy to dismiss each as nothing serious, but together they paint more of a picture.

 

This is in the context of litigation.  It's not in the context of some sort of discussion narrative.  Flores is going to have to establish civil liability against (in this instance) the Broncos.  As such, what the Giants or Dolphins did have no bearing on Broncos -- and vice versa.  I mean, I guess if they could establish some sort of deliberate conspiracy.

 

But the complaint doesn't even get near any of that.  It just says that the Broncos gave him a sham interview and his reasoning for this is Elway/Ellis being late and hungover.

 

Once again, if he or anybody else got sham interviews, that seems like more of an indictment of the Rooney Rule -- which basically encourages sham interviews -- than the people giving sham interviews.

 

Is he saying that Elway and Ellis should've done a better job feigning interest in him?

[Solid84]

18 hours ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

Now we see why he was let go. Ownership in Miami is trash. He has to have good character to actually stand up for what is right.

 

This Rooney rule is kind of offensive to minority candidates. They should get interviews based on qualifications not the color of their skin. The rule had good intentions but a lot of unintended consequences.

The problem is the league is so inbreed and full of nepotism. The owners, GMs and coaches hire what they know or get recommended through connections or first hand experience. It's exceptionally difficult to get in as an outsider.

 

Flores seems like a guy with high character and my opinion of him would've sky-rocketed if he hadn't pulled the race card. It's got nothing to do with race in my opinion.

[luv_pony_express]

8 minutes ago, smittywerb said:

it is, all organizations have to do is show face.  Which is probably what the giants were doing.  

 

It's because the Rooney Rule requires a simulation when the candidate or candidates they want aren't minorities.

 

As I said in an earlier post, the league can force an interview...but it can't force genuine interest.  And if an interview happens because it has to happen rather than because of a genuine interest, blame the policy -- not the people who are acting out the simulation as they've been directed to do.

 

But -- and here's the key point here -- just because a team favors a white candidate over a minority candidate doesn't mean they did so because their favored candidate was white or the non-favored candidate wasn't.

[AwesomeAustin]

Just now, Shive said:

That and what can be uncovered about any discussions Ross had with Flores trying to bribe him to tank.

 

I've seen that Bill has deep ties with the Mara family, so it would stand to reason that he got inside info ahead of time.

The NFL is relatively small when it comes to coaches and I bet a lot of them stay in contact with each other.  I’m sure most of these coaches have someone’s number from each team in their personal phone.  BB would have interest if the offensive coordinator that has been giving him trouble was heading to the other conference. Wasn’t he the defensive coordinator in NY under Parcells?  I bet Frank Reich has contacts with Eagles, Bears, Chargers, Bills, Cardinals, Panthers and Lions just from him working/playing there. Let alone all the other coaches that were on staff for those teams that are probably scattered across the league and colleges  by now. It’s a small world and the NFL is even smaller 

[luv_pony_express]

3 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

The problem is the league is so inbreed and full of nepotism. The owners, GMs and coaches hire what they know or get recommended through connections or first hand experience. It's exceptionally difficult to get in as an outsider.

 

Flores seems like a guy with high character and my opinion of him would've sky-rocketed if he hadn't pulled the race card. It's got nothing to do with race in my opinion.

 

Now, I'm generally critical of the specific complaint(s) that Flores has filed.  I think it falls way short of demonstrating what it's alleging.  As such, I think the suit may end up being a disservice to the cause of increasing racial neutrality in NFL hiring practices.

 

But, that said, I would also say that I'm not at all qualified to say that there is or isn't racial discrimination in NFL hiring/firing practices.  I don't think Flores has proven it with this complaint.  But failing to prove X is not the same thing as disproving X.

 

However, they're using the term "systemic" here -- which means that it's so ingrained in NFL culture that it's just as accepted as the reality that men, not women, are the GMs and coaches.  It's an unwritten rule that, while not planned or deliberate, is just unquestioned.

 

That seems a tougher thing to demonstrate.  It seems evident to me that each of the 32 owners is going to operate independently and absolutely deserves to be treated as such.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, jvan1973 said:

Might want to wait and see what kind of proof he brings forward.   If the owner was bribing him to lose and a coach was hired before his interview,  this is a huge story

You mean Flores accepted a bribe from the owner to have his team lose?  Flores should be kicked out of the NFL and should never have been interviewed by any team.

 

It appears that  Flores may have been hired as HC in MIA in the first place because of his race over his qualifications.  Now he's claiming that decisions to not hire him are based on race?   

 

It looks like the guy is just an unqualified tool who happens to be black and is trying to use the rules to bully his way in.

 

[smittywerb]

12 minutes ago, luv_pony_express said:

 

It's because the Rooney Rule requires a simulation when the candidate or candidates they want aren't minorities.

 

As I said in an earlier post, the league can force an interview...but it can't force genuine interest.  And if an interview happens because it has to happen rather than because of a genuine interest, blame the policy -- not the people who are acting out the simulation as they've been directed to do.

 

But -- and here's the key point here -- just because a team favors a white candidate over a minority candidate doesn't mean they did so because their favored candidate was white or the non-favored candidate wasn't.

 

i agree but on your last part, it becomes clear that isn’t the case when less qualified coaches are getting opportunities when good ones aren’t.  Regardless of color.  If I sign a coach who had a losing season over a coach who had a winning season, we need to know why.  Once again, regardless of color.

[Shive]

2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

You mean Flores accepted a bribe from the owner to have his team lose?  Flores should be kicked out of the NFL and should never have been interviewed by any team.

Wow, somehow you flipped that completely around to blame the person offered the bribe, not the person offering it. There's no information that he took any such bribe and his insistence on not tanking is apparently one of the reasons he was deemed to have an attitude problem and butt heads with ownership. Flores was told by GM Chris Grier that Stephen Ross was livid that his efforts to actually win compromised Miami's draft position. That tells me he didn't take the bribe, but thanks for victim-blaming.

 

2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

It appears that  Flores may have been hired as HC in MIA in the first place because of his race over his qualifications.  Now he's claiming that decisions to not hire him are based on race?

Based on the reports that shortly after Flores was hired, Ross attempted to bribe him to tank the season, it seems like there is potential that he may have been hired based on his race...to be the fall guy. The team tanks at the owner's direct and bribe, they get the #1 draft pick, fire Flores for the losing season, then hire the guy they want with their #1 pick in hand. It's a bit of a conspiracy theory, but plausible.

 

2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

It looks like the guy is just an unqualified tool who happens to be black and is trying to use the rules to bully his way in.

He had 2 winning seasons out of 3 despite his Owner and GM actively working against him. "Unqualified tool" is the far from what Flores has shown to be.

[Colt.45]

17 minutes ago, DougDew said:

You mean Flores accepted a bribe from the owner to have his team lose?  Flores should be kicked out of the NFL and should never have been interviewed by any team.

 

It appears that  Flores may have been hired as HC in MIA in the first place because of his race over his qualifications.  Now he's claiming that decisions to not hire him are based on race?   

 

It looks like the guy is just an unqualified tool who happens to be black and is trying to use the rules to bully his way in.

 

 

Dude, where are you getting any of this from? How was he unqualified? How is he bullying his way in?

Have you read any of the facts around the case? How're you coming to these conclusions? Whatever you've thrown into the mixer to come to these kind of statements AFTER seeing the case facts is a dodgy thing