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Brian Flores Suing NFL and NY Giants (Merge)


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8 minutes ago, Shive said:

1. He signed a contract, so quiting would cost him money.

2. Power dynamics.

3. Quit on your boss while making his unethical requests public and he'll try to make sure all of his fellow billion owners don't want to hire you.

4. At that point, he probably hadn't decided he was willing to risk his career to rock the boat.

5. It was most likely his mentor texting him congratulations for getting a job he was 3 days away from interviewing for, then finding out he accidentally texted the wrong guy and that you have to go an interview for a job you've been told is already going to someone else that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

 

All of the bolded proves my point. Now that he can't get job, he is being spiteful and wreaking as much havoc on everyone that he can. 

 

"His getting blackballed would be confirmation that there indeed is a racial issue here."

 

Uh, no, he would be getting blackballed due to the headache, drama, and problems that he is now causing everyone; not race. 

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13 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

Why not the interim coach? In my opinion he did a great job. McDaniels is a jerk who rode the coattails of Brady. 
 

 

That is what I said from the beginning -- remove the interim tag from that coach who did a great job. I now wonder where he will go. 

 

13 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

So with everything going on, it looks like our state can add the NFL to its list of things to ban me from discussing in the classroom…

 

Wow.  SMH. (Hey, hey, I thought we have free speech. You are banned from discussing something?  If it is a public school that gets government funds, that seems unconstitutional...Sorry, wrong thread.)

 

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1 minute ago, NFLfan said:

 

That is what I said from the beginning -- remove the interim tag from that coach who did a great job. I now wonder where he will go. 

 

 

Wow.  SMH. (Hey, hey, I thought we have free speech. You are banned from discussing something?  If it is a public school that gets government funds, that seems unconstitutional. That is for a different thread. Sorry.)

Can’t go into details, I would probably break the rules of the board. Just go search for some of the education bills being considered in Indiana. I’ll leave it at that. 
 

On topic, I don’t get all the love McDaniels gets. 

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39 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

Facepalm GIF by MOODMAN

 

Okay so.. we're gonna solve "racism" in the NFL? How? This is just going to turn in pandering in afraid. I guess now's my best shot at getting a head coaching job..


ummm by not being racist?  Have they tried that yet?  

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24 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

Josh McDaniels just landed the Raiders job and folks have been going gaga over him for years. He has an 11-17 record and made a mess in Denver. No one has a problem hiring him again. Why not Flores? Now he won't get a job (I guess he will get cancelled lol). 

 

The Vikes reportedly are hiring Jim Harbaugh. That is understandable. He has a good track record. 

 

 

Add the notorious Adam Gase to getting a second HC chance to mess up the Jets after he messed up the Dolphins.

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11 minutes ago, Shive said:

 

 

His getting blackballed would be confirmation that there indeed is a racial issue here.

Gotta disagree. He could very well be getting stonewalled simply because of his attitude and performance. Kaepernick for example claimed to be because he kneeled and all that. People too easily forget that his play had fallen off badly and he was overtaken in the depth chart. Then he screamed racism etc.  

 

 

Flores could very well not be getting offers because there are better candidates. Or his attitude or performance or all the above. But while I don’t doubt racism exists in the league to some degree, this doesn’t pass the smell test for me. 

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9 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

Can’t go into details, I would probably break the rules of the board. Just go search for some of the education bills being considered in Indiana. I’ll leave it at that. 
 

On topic, I don’t get all the love McDaniels gets. 

 

Teams seem to like anyone with any connection to the Patriots. They have failed everywhere except with the Pats. 

 

(In the other matter, I know what you are talking about.)

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23 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

Teams seem to like anyone with any connection to the Patriots. They have failed everywhere except with the Pats. 

 

(In the other matter, I know what you are talking about.)

Shoot, even the Patriots have failed without Brady. Hard to argue the evidence now… 

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I haven't read the 58 pages of the lawsuit but have some comments & questions.

 

First, Props to Flores for speaking up. There are so many others that can too and hope some more brave souls come forward. It's not just about racism, but the lack of integrity in the sport.

I hope Flores comes out at least financially ok for himself & family. I have so much respect for him.

 

Question: how did Belichek know days before Daboli was hired that he was getting the job? It was like 3 days before the Giants interviewed Flores.... Does NFL business go through Kraft/Belichek before happens? 

 

Ross offered Flores $100k to tank.....  Did someone tell Reich to tank vs Jacksonville? ....if so, was it the Steelers so they instead of colts make the playoffs :funny:

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1 hour ago, RollerColt said:

 

On topic, I don’t get all the love McDaniels gets. 

 

McDaniels has been the OC for the most winningest franchise in last decade or more. OC's & DC's usually are prime head coaching candidates when they've been with successful organizations, as I'm sure you know. I'm sure him weaseling out of taking the colts job Is what you are referring too. He no doubt will always be hated here. But elsewhere, things fade away with time and he has a good resume. 

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The Broncos story in this seems especially weak.  His argument is that Elway was late and hungover for the interview.   As such, this demonstrates that they hired Fangio over him because Fangio is white?

 

I’m not going to say there isn’t any racial discrimination in NFL hiring.  I wouldn’t know.  There may be.

 

But that story doesn’t demonstrate it.

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1 hour ago, csmopar said:

Gotta disagree. He could very well be getting stonewalled simply because of his attitude and performance. Kaepernick for example claimed to be because he kneeled and all that. People too easily forget that his play had fallen off badly and he was overtaken in the depth chart. Then he screamed racism etc.  

 

 

Flores could very well not be getting offers because there are better candidates. Or his attitude or performance or all the above. But while I don’t doubt racism exists in the league to some degree, this doesn’t pass the smell test for me. 

Everyone was shocked when he was fired, as he was considered a really good HC that coached his team to completely overperform the talent on their roster. I would say performance wasn't the issue.

 

The only musing that came out about his attitude and butting heads was from the people that tried to coax him into doing unethical things or things that blatantly broke NFL rules. All that shows me is integrity and that a terrible owner tried to smear him on the way out the door.

 

I also find it incredibly interesting (and telling) that so many people are starting from the standpoint that Flores is lying, then justifying from there. Just as an exercise, maybe consider working from the assumption that this is all true. What if every word Flores has laid out in his lawsuit is true? What if some NFL owners and front offices are blatantly discriminating against black coaches?

 

7 minutes ago, luv_pony_express said:

The Broncos story in this seems especially weak.  His argument is that Elway was late and hungover for the interview.   As such, this demonstrates that they hired Fangio over him because Fangio is white?

 

I’m not going to say there isn’t any racial discrimination in NFL hiring.  I wouldn’t know.  There may be.

 

But that story doesn’t demonstrate it.

I think the issue with the Broncos isn't necessarily that they hired Fangio over him because he's white. I think it's that their alleged condition and conduct showed that they didn't take his interview seriously and that he was never a serious candidate for the job. He was just a check in the box to satisfy the Rooney Rule.

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26 minutes ago, Shive said:

I think the issue with the Broncos isn't necessarily that they hired Fangio over him because he's white. I think it's that their alleged condition and conduct showed that they didn't take his interview seriously and that he was never a serious candidate for the job. He was just a check in the box to satisfy the Rooney Rule.

Well, a rule like the Rooney Rule is bound to create such a thing, isn’t it?  That’s been the knock on that rule since it went in.  Even if a team wasn’t genuinely interested in hiring any particular minority candidate, they’re still required to go through the motions.

 

If he’s right that the Broncos weren’t really interested in him, that seems like more of a knock on the rule than on Elway and Ellis.  The league can force an interview, but it can’t force genuine interest.

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I find that hypocrisy is at an all time high in this country, No, this is not an agreement or disagreement with Mr Flores's actions. I just see folks pointing fingers at percentages over here......yet choosing to ignore percentages over there.

 

https://theundefeated.com/features/the-nfls-racial-divide/

 

In this article, there is a graph that shows all positions in the NFL (players) and whether they are white or black. You can pull the slider on the left and it changes over the years. It sure looks like a huge racial disparity in every position except for G, T, and TE. Why would racial disparity in one arena bother....but not in the other arena? Please do not take this question as a statement of my opinion. 

 

My only opinion is that I dislike hypocrisy. 

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56 minutes ago, luv_pony_express said:

The Broncos story in this seems especially weak.  His argument is that Elway was late and hungover for the interview.

 

I believe what it means is that he felt that they did not take his interview seriously. They were just going through the motions. If they were uninterested and not alert, it would not matter what he did to make an impression. It would be a waste of his time.

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37 minutes ago, luv_pony_express said:

Well, a rule like the Rooney Rule is bound to create such a thing, isn’t it?  That’s been the knock on that rule since it went in.  Even if a team wasn’t genuinely interested in hiring any particular minority candidate, they’re still required to go through the motions.

 

If he’s right that the Broncos weren’t really interested in him, that seems like more of a knock on the rule than on Elway and Ellis.  The league can force an interview, but it can’t force genuine interest.

 

No, the purpose of the rule is not necessarily to hire the person or "go through the motions". It is to seriously interview candidates that owners may not have considered had the rule not been in place. By interviewing them, the owners/GMs get to know them.  If the interviewer is not alert in their meeting/interview, how could the candidate make any impression that can last? 

 

I like that the Vikings interviewed about a dozen people for their head coaching position. Some have come for second interviews.  The owners/front office folks did not seem to go through the motions.  The GM wants Jim Harbaugh who has a track record and who has history with him. The hire would make sense. But during the interview process the Vikings owners got to meet many candidates. Perhaps they will hire one of them in the future or may want them as an OC/DC/Assistant Head Coach.  It also helps the candidate to be more comfortable with such interviews going forward.

 

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Example of how the Rooney Rule was intended. The team's front office and owners are not going through the motions. This was his second interview, it lasted 9 hours, he was shown all around the facility. He probably has heard that Jim Harbaugh is the #1 candidate but perhaps if Harbaugh declines the job, this guy will be high on the list. I know nothing about him but my friend who is a Giants season-ticket holder said he was hoping that the Giants retained him. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Tsarquise said:

 

Uh, no, he would be getting blackballed due to the headache, drama, and problems that he is now causing everyone; not race. 

 

No, he would be getting Blackballed because he didn't do the things his boss told him to do.... like Tanking games.

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5 hours ago, stitches said:

He's alledging that Elway and Ellis came to his interview 1 hour late and were drunk/hungover/"disheveled" and that by the way the interview was conducted it was clear to him he was just being Rooney-ruled, and he never had a shot at that job. 

Instead of elway coming late and drunk for the interview, he should have taken Flores or at least tell him where he was drinking at and let Flores get drunk too. haha

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12 hours ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

Now we see why he was let go. Ownership in Miami is trash. He has to have good character to actually stand up for what is right.

 

This Rooney rule is kind of offensive to minority candidates. They should get interviews based on qualifications not the color of their skin. The rule had good intentions but a lot of unintended consequences.

 

The Rooney Rule is NOT the problem.   It may not be an effective solution to a problem you don’t quite seem to understand.  
 

Before the RR, minority coaches couldn’t even get an interview for a HC job, much less the actual job.   They pointed out you can’t get the job without getting interviewed.   
 

The RR isn’t why minority coaches aren’t getting the job.   The problem is 32 NFL owners are white.   They want to hire a HC who looks like them and sounds like them.   
 

That isn’t a RR rule problem.  
 

The other problem is not enough minority coaches are becoming coordinators.   The league has recently tried to incentivize hiring minority coaches as coordinators by giving the team that picks a minority coordinator extra draft picks.   The hope is that will help in the long run.  
 

The RR is not a problem.   It may not be a perfect solution and more will have to be done,  but the problems are elsewhere.  

 

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5 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

Listen to what Mima Kimes says. I was just like her. I used to make excuse after excuse as to why there were so few black head coaches. After following the NFL for 30 years, there are no more excuses.  Check this:

 

 

BTW Culley is another coach who won more games than was expected and he still lost his job just a year after being hired

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4 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

No, the purpose of the rule is not necessarily to hire the person or "go through the motions". It is to seriously interview candidates that owners may not have considered had the rule not been in place. By interviewing them, the owners/GMs get to know them.  If the interviewer is not alert in their meeting/interview, how could the candidate make any impression that can last? 

 

I like that the Vikings interviewed about a dozen people for their head coaching position. Some have come for second interviews.  The owners/front office folks did not seem to go through the motions.  The GM wants Jim Harbaugh who has a track record and who has history with him. The hire would make sense. But during the interview process the Vikings owners got to meet many candidates. Perhaps they will hire one of them in the future or may want them as an OC/DC/Assistant Head Coach.  It also helps the candidate to be more comfortable with such interviews going forward.

 


I understand what its intention is.  But we’re dealing with litigation over racial discrimination in employment.  And keep in mind that the Rooney rule is an NFL policy, not federal employment law.

 

What Flores describes in his complaint might suffice as a reason to say the Broncos didn’t sincerely act in the spirit of the rule.  But that’s not the same thing as demonstrating a violation of equal employment laws.  Saying they were hungover and uninterested in an interview doesn’t even come close to clearing any bars.

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I always thought when Flores got fired that I think he is a decent defensive coach but there is a clear direction where the NFL is going and its offense offense offense. After watching the playoffs its even more clearer.

 

You want a fancy young qb and a great offensive scheme, hence why teams wanted Bills OC, Packers OC etc etc 

 

Don’t know how he gonna prove some of the things stated but wish him good luck going forward 

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3 hours ago, stitches said:

BTW Culley is another coach who won more games than was expected and he still lost his job just a year after being hired

 

Yep. He was one of those I was thinking of when I discriminatory "retention rates".  Fans and owners seem to have shorter leashes with them. 

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6 hours ago, Shive said:

Everyone was shocked when he was fired, as he was considered a really good HC that coached his team to completely overperform the talent on their roster. I would say performance wasn't the issue.

 

The only musing that came out about his attitude and butting heads was from the people that tried to coax him into doing unethical things or things that blatantly broke NFL rules. All that shows me is integrity and that a terrible owner tried to smear him on the way out the door.

 

I also find it incredibly interesting (and telling) that so many people are starting from the standpoint that Flores is lying, then justifying from there. Just as an exercise, maybe consider working from the assumption that this is all true. What if every word Flores has laid out in his lawsuit is true? What if some NFL owners and front offices are blatantly discriminating against black coaches?

 

I think the issue with the Broncos isn't necessarily that they hired Fangio over him because he's white. I think it's that their alleged condition and conduct showed that they didn't take his interview seriously and that he was never a serious candidate for the job. He was just a check in the box to satisfy the Rooney Rule.

I’m not saying he’s lying . I’m asking for proof. A text from a head coach of another team that had nothing to do with racism, isn’t proof of race being the deciding factor.

 

as for the attitude, performance etc, I was merely saying that we don’t know all the details that led too it. Now, if he comes out with some sort of email or text telling him to tank and him refusing, oh gosh yes, the Dolphins need to fry over that. Same thing if he has proof that race led to his firing and or not getting jobs. 

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6 hours ago, Four2itus said:

I find that hypocrisy is at an all time high in this country, No, this is not an agreement or disagreement with Mr Flores's actions. I just see folks pointing fingers at percentages over here......yet choosing to ignore percentages over there.

 

https://theundefeated.com/features/the-nfls-racial-divide/

 

In this article, there is a graph that shows all positions in the NFL (players) and whether they are white or black. You can pull the slider on the left and it changes over the years. It sure looks like a huge racial disparity in every position except for G, T, and TE. Why would racial disparity in one arena bother....but not in the other arena? Please do not take this question as a statement of my opinion. 

 

My only opinion is that I dislike hypocrisy. 

Perfect post!

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10 hours ago, Tsarquise said:

If he was so beneath and disgusted about being offered money to tank, why is he just now revealing this? He should have notified the public and quit on the spot (In 2019) if he was so morally outraged. 

There's always someone asking "why now?" Always.

Those people are almost unanimously bad actors. Not saying you are but the odds dont favor you.

 

The guy was paraded around like a clown, and might be extremely frustrated and fed up with accumulated rubbish, that's not enough reason to come out now? He probably needs the Tsarquise stamp of approval before proceeding right? Put yourself in his shoes for 5 minutes, not exactly hard to see how he's decided to come out with it now.

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1 hour ago, rayski said:

I always thought when Flores got fired that I think he is a decent defensive coach but there is a clear direction where the NFL is going and its offense offense offense. After watching the playoffs its even more clearer.

 

You want a fancy young qb and a great offensive scheme, hence why teams wanted Bills OC, Packers OC etc etc 

 

Don’t know how he gonna prove some of the things stated but wish him good luck going forward 

The Colts DC was just hired 

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4 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

The Rooney Rule is NOT the problem.   It may not be an effective solution to a problem you don’t quite seem to understand.  
 

Before the RR, minority coaches couldn’t even get an interview for a HC job, much less the actual job.   They pointed out you can’t get the job without getting interviewed.   

Sorry you must forgive me, I've only been paying attention to football since 2003. But minorities weren't allowed to interview? 

 

I feel like this is a direct correlation to that rule. Maybe its just me, but who wants to be a token? I feel for Flores.. If I ever walked into an interview only because the color of my skin I'd feel horrible... "You got the job, because we feel you would be an excell.... well because you're black and it's the right thing to do!" 

 

That's how I interpret the Rooney Rule to be,,

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A stray Lamb stood drinking early one morning on the bank of a woodland stream. That very same morning a hungry Wolf came by farther up the stream, hunting for something to eat. He soon got his eyes on the Lamb. As a rule Mr. Wolf snapped up such delicious morsels without making any bones about it, but this Lamb looked so very helpless and innocent that the Wolf felt he ought to have some kind of an excuse for taking its life.

"How dare you paddle around in my stream and stir up all the mud!" he shouted fiercely. "You deserve to be punished severely for your rashness!"

"But, your highness," replied the trembling Lamb, "do not be angry! I cannot possibly muddy the water you are drinking up there. Remember, you are upstream and I am downstream."

"You do muddy it!" retorted the Wolf savagely. "And besides, I have heard that you told lies about me last year!" "How could I have done so?" pleaded the Lamb. "I wasn't born until this year."

"If it wasn't you, it was your brother!"

"I have no brothers."

"Well, then," snarled the Wolf, "It was someone in your family anyway. But no matter who it was, I do not intend to be talked out of my breakfast."

And without more words the Wolf seized the poor Lamb and carried her off to the forest.

 

The question i always come back to is - why do people side with the wolf? Ever.

 

The NFL has a culture issue, none of what Flores has alleged is in any way shocking, he's just said the quiet part out loud. People across the media, the league, even Mother Common Sense, are all nodding their heads. I hope this goes to discovery. Baseball may be on strike but it's football that will need to be worried.

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4 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

Sorry you must forgive me, I've only been paying attention to football since 2003. But minorities weren't allowed to interview? 

 

I feel like this is a direct correlation to that rule. Maybe its just me, but who wants to be a token? I feel for Flores.. If I ever walked into an interview only because the color of my skin I'd feel horrible... "You got the job, because we feel you would be an excell.... well because you're black and it's the right thing to do!" 

 

That's how I interpret the Rooney Rule to be,,

No one wants to be a token. No one.

The rule was meant to FORCE teams to change and consider minorities, it was bad. Blacks were 'allowed' to interview alright. That's like saying a house in a poor part of town is the same as the Governor's mansion because after all it has a roof and a toilet in it so no difference.

 

The mental gymnastics that the NFL, and in many ways the larger society, will do just to deny the far easier route of equity, is always a sight to behold. The Rooney rule wound up being performance art, like quite a few other rules you'll have noticed around you. 

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34 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

Sorry you must forgive me, I've only been paying attention to football since 2003. But minorities weren't allowed to interview? 

Come on, man... You cannot be this naive. They were allowed to interview... just... were almost never asked to interview. That's part of the reason for the Rooney Rule. To try to at the very least remedy one of the steps where discrimination appeared, without striaght up forcing teams to hire people they didn't want to hire. The Rooney Rule is pretty much a "just give them a chance" rule. 

34 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

I feel like this is a direct correlation to that rule. Maybe its just me, but who wants to be a token? I feel for Flores.. If I ever walked into an interview only because the color of my skin I'd feel horrible... "You got the job, because we feel you would be an excell.... well because you're black and it's the right thing to do!" 

 

That's how I interpret the Rooney Rule to be,,

Like I said above, the Rooney rule is not about tokenism, it's about recrifying an obvious bias in NFL teams' hiring practices, which the NFL itself tacitly admited when they introduced the rule... It's about giving people a shot, when that shot was not even available before. They are not forcing teams to hire anybody and the ones that even reach that level have gone through serious sifting through(i.e. they are not there only because they are a minority, but because they have the skills to be considered for the job). Unfortunately the Rooney rule accomplishes the "just give them a chance" objective, but it probably doesn't accomplish the "give them a FAIR chance" objective(and I don't know what would be a rule that accomplishes that... there probably isn't anything that can achieve it). And everybody kind of already knew that. To me the most telling thing is people at the same time saying "Well, we knew this will be the outcome of the Rooney rule. What did you expect?" but at the same time acting like what Flores is saying is outrageous, unbelievable and he's probably lying. 

 

To me it will be interesting to hear what Belichick will say if asked to testify. Will he cover for the league or back up his pupil? BTW... this is a class-action law suit from what I'm gathering. Which means... this is probably just the tip of the iceberg. There will be a lot more cases like this surfacing if this suit has any seriousness and is not frivolous. 

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2 minutes ago, stitches said:

Come on, man... You cannot be this naive. They were allowed to interview... just... were almost never asked to interview. That's part of the reason for the Rooney Rule. To try to at the very least remedy one of the steps where discrimination appeared, without striaght up forcing teams to hire people they didn't want to hire. The Rooney Rule is pretty much a "just give them a chance" rule. 

Like I said above, the Rooney rule is not about tokenism, it's about recrifying an obvious bias in NFL teams' hiring practices... It's about giving people a shot, when that shot was not even available before. They are not forcing teams to hire anybody and the ones that even reach that level have gone through serious sifting through. Unfortunately the Rooney rule accomplishes the "just give them a chance" objective, but it probably doesn't accomplish the "give them a FAIR chance" objective. And everybody kind of already knew that. To me the most telling thing is people at the same time saying "Well, we knew this will be the outcome of the Rooney rule. What did you expect?" but at the same time acting like what Flores is saying is outrageous, unbelievable and he's probably lying. 

 

To me it will be interesting to hear what Belichick will say if asked to testify. Will he cover for the league or back up his pupil? BTW... this is a class-action law suit from what I'm gathering. Which means... this is probably just the iceberg. There will be a ton more cases like this surfacing if this suit has any seriousness and is not frivolous. 

Well.. maybe I just am naïve..

 

So there's an obvious bias towards hiring black head coaches? Hmm. So all those in the past were to fill an quota? How come? Why does everything have to come down to race? I don't think I've ever had a black owner for a company that I worked for is this an issue too? I think I am naïve to what is actually going on..

 

I'm sure this topic and thread are being monitored closing because this subject could turn south quickly. 

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50 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

You got the job, because we feel you would be an excell.... well because you're black and it's the right thing to do!" 

 

You are misrepresenting the Rooney Rule. The teams do not have to hire these folks. The rule said they have to interview someone who is not white. And the person does not have to be black. Ron Rivera and Robert Saleh were coaches that when interviewed, it satisfied the Rooney Rule. 

 

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