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JediXMan
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The Colts need to move on from Doyle and quite possible MO. Doyle is at the end of his career regardless of his decision to retire or not. Ballard needs to sign someone who can stretch the field and be a consistent play-maker that this offense desperately needs at the TE spot.

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I understand Doyle is well liked and while he does have some value mostly as a blocker, he is not cutting it in my opinion. We need to try to find an explosive tight end. I heard earlier we drafted Dayo over Freermuth from Pitt last year. I can see that being another Banogu over AJ Brown type situation 

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8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Doyle had a good season. Hope he's back.

 

Folks think drafting another guy is going to change something lol... 

We just don't use TE like a lot of teams do. 

And PFF said yet again that Mo needs a bigger role. 

 

We would if we actually had a stud.  MAC is just who he is. He has hit his ceiling. He just isn’t going to be more then he is. 

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4 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

We would if we actually had a stud.  MAC is just who he is. He has hit his ceiling. He just isn’t going to be more then he is. 

Well, the pros at PFF disagree with you.

The eye test in terms of use, would disagree with you too... lol

So how exactly has MAC hit his ceiling ...?????

 

 

And Reich's TE usage has been suspect since he took full control of scheme in 2019 after Luck left....

Note Doyle's usage below in 2018, which is heavy seam.... The last 3 years, TEs are heavy flat and sideline, just like WRs. The only TE that really got decent seam use was Burton, who just wasn't very good (but Reich likes his HB/TE/slot types)... 

route-chart_DOY403968_2018-reg-8_1540770

 

 

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43 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Doyle had a good season. Hope he's back.

 

Folks think drafting another guy is going to change something lol... 

We just don't use TE like a lot of teams do. 

And PFF said yet again that Mo needs a bigger role. 

 

We don’t have a talent to be able to use the TE position differently. It’s mediocre as far as the passing game. I do see both Doyle and Mo’s value as blockers, but I think one piece of the solution to the weak WR situation is an upgrade at TE. Get a genuine offensive weapon at TE and add a true #2 WR and suddenly the Colts passing game looks like it has a future. 

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2 minutes ago, Hoose said:

We don’t have a talent to be able to use the TE position differently. It’s mediocre as far as the passing game. I do see both Doyle and Mo’s value as blockers, but I think one piece of the solution to the weak WR situation is an upgrade at TE. Get a genuine offensive weapon at TE and add a true #2 WR and suddenly the Colts passing game looks like it has a future. 

See above. 

Our TE use has simply changed under Reich. 

And its baloney that we don't talent to do different things.

Mo has been highly successful in L2 and L3 shots, but we rarely take them. 

Both our WRs and TEs are so heavy flat and sideline, it's pathetic. 

It's obvious in the charts that are widely available. 

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51 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Doyle had a good season. Hope he's back.

 

Folks think drafting another guy is going to change something lol... 

We just don't use TE like a lot of teams do. 

And PFF said yet again that Mo needs a bigger role. 

 


Reich is on record long before he came to the Colts as valuing good tight ends in his offense.    
 

Seriously doubt he was lying about it long before he came to Indy.   You’re going to say that talk is cheap and it’s about what Reich does that counts.   Fair enough. 
 

All I’m saying is that there is more to this story than meets the eye.   It’s not as black and white as you try to make it out to be.  

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5 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

See above. 

Our TE use has simply changed under Reich. 

And its baloney that we don't talent to do different things.

Mo has been highly successful in L2 and L3 shots, but we rarely take them. 

Both our WRs and TEs are so heavy flat and sideline, it's pathetic. 

It's obvious in the charts that are widely available. 

Ebron had 13 TD. Reich has made it known How much he loves having that kind of TE. We haven’t had that since Ebron. Why do you think Reich was excited about Granson. Even Ballard said they still need to find that TE.

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2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

See above. 

Our TE use has simply changed under Reich. 

And its baloney that we don't talent to do different things.

Mo has been highly successful in L2 and L3 shots, but we rarely take them. 

Both our WRs and TEs are so heavy flat and sideline, it's pathetic. 

It's obvious in the charts that are widely available. 

I just don’t see Mo as anything but a plodder these days. He looks much slower to me than in prior years. And Doyle is very limited and requires a simpler route tree these days….and truthfully he always has. I love his story and he’s one of my favorite Colt players, but he’s ready for the pasture.  This position screams for an upgrade IMO. 

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4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:


Reich is on record long before he came to the Colts as valuing good tight ends in his offense.    
 

Seriously doubt he was lying about it long before he came to Indy.   You’re going to say that talk is cheap and it’s about what Reich does that counts.   Fair enough. 
 

All I’m saying is that there is more to this story than meets the eye.   It’s not as black and white as you try to make it out to be.  

So let's flip it... Has a coach ever said he doesn't value good TEs?

 

He's been OC in two situations where he inherited great TEs. LAC, where he had Gates, and Philly, where he had Ertz.....

Ertz's production actually went up after Reich left.....

Gates' targets declined 15% in Reich's first year in SD.

 

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4 minutes ago, Hoose said:

I just don’t see Mo as anything but a plodder these days. He looks much slower to me than in prior years. And Doyle is very limited and requires a simpler route tree these days….and truthfully he always has. I love his story and he’s one of my favorite Colt players, but he’s ready for the pasture.  This position screams for an upgrade IMO. 

 

 I look at all the young, unknown TE's that are making plays for other teams and see that MO doesn't move as well as they do. After all of this time for development, he is no more than a not as good as Doyle at blocking,

blocking only TE.

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6 minutes ago, Hoose said:

I just don’t see Mo as anything but a plodder these days. He looks much slower to me than in prior years. And Doyle is very limited and requires a simpler route tree these days….and truthfully he always has. I love his story and he’s one of my favorite Colt players, but he’s ready for the pasture.  This position screams for an upgrade IMO. 

Doyle was running full route trees and killed the seam in 2018. See above chart... 

His use was dramatically different in 2019, and since in terms of tree. 

 

Mo killed sail, and other complex routes on the L2/3. Go back and watch his MN highlights. Chart below.... 

We rarely if ever have run those with him since. And they were completely lethal.... Look at the chart below.... Is that all coincidence lol... Does a plodder kill three L3 sails in one game lol.... 

 

So I call nonsense on both narratives. Reich is completely over conservative on routes, and his O is simply limited in general. 

I mean, really, in what world do you post up 5-10 TY on the side line and flat over and over again like he's a 6-4 X.... lol

 

route-chart_ALI177980_2020-REG-2_1600632

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12 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

So let's flip it... Has a coach ever said he doesn't value good TEs?

 

He's been OC in two situations where he inherited great TEs. LAC, where he had Gates, and Philly, where he had Ertz.....

Ertz's production actually went up after Reich left.....

Gates' targets declined 15% in Reich's first year in SD.

 


Ertz’s and Gates were often hurt.   Again, more to this story.   Why would he not throw more to them?  
 

It’s not like we have a strong tight end room. 

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3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:


Ertz’s and Gates were often hurt.   Again, more to this story.   Why would he not throw more to them?  
 

It’s not like we have a strong tight end room. 

Ertz YPG (taking into account injury/availability) increased by 23%.....

It wasn't just total yards... 

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1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

Doyle had a good season. Hope he's back.

 

Folks think drafting another guy is going to change something lol... 

We just don't use TE like a lot of teams do. 

And PFF said yet again that Mo needs a bigger role. 

 

29 catches for 300 yards and 3 TD's is something you consider good for a #1 TE?

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1 minute ago, Dark Superman said:

29 catches for 300 yards and 3 TD's is something you consider good for a #1 TE?

Well, given he's playing in Reich's offense,,,, yes lol... 

Given he only got targeted 43 times, and 18 were for 1st downs, yes. 

 

I would have definitely shifted some targets from Pascal to Doyle and Mo.

Both had much better passer rating when targeted grades than ZP....

Both had much better 1D%s

JD had 18 1st downs on 43 targets. ZP 16 1Ds on 69 targets.

 

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2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Well, given he's playing in Reich's offense,,,, yes lol... 

Given he only got targeted 43 times, and 18 were for 1st downs, yes. 

 

I would have definitely shifted some targets from Pascal to Doyle and Mo.

Both had much better passer rating when targeted grades than ZP....

Both had much better 1D%s

JD had 18 1st downs on 43 targets. ZP 16 1Ds on 69 targets.

 

I should have mentioned playing in this offense with Carson Wentz under center clearly had a huge hit on the production of the TE position. The Colts failed at getting their TE's involved nearly all year long. The same could be said about the lack of use of Nyheim Hines who should of been lined up all over the field creating mismatches. Either way, I think you bring in a guy who can spread the field and create explosive plays on a consistent basis. There's a handful of guys who are scheduled to become free agents in March and I expect the Colts to push hard to sign at least one of them.

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12 minutes ago, Dark Superman said:

I should have mentioned playing in this offense with Carson Wentz under center clearly had a huge hit on the production of the TE position. The Colts failed at getting their TE's involved nearly all year long. The same could be said about the lack of use of Nyheim Hines who should of been lined up all over the field creating mismatches. Either way, I think you bring in a guy who can spread the field and create explosive plays on a consistent basis. There's a handful of guys who are scheduled to become free agents in March and I expect the Colts to push hard to sign at least one of them.

Nope...

Posted this in another thread.... 

 

Jack Doyle - better with Wentz 

2020:  PFF 67.0 / YPG 17.9

2021:  71.6 / 17.8

Comments:  no difference in YPG, but graded about 5pts higher, and increased his 1D catches 38% with Wentz....

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2 hours ago, Dark Superman said:

The Colts need to move on from Doyle and quite possible MO. Doyle is at the end of his career regardless of his decision to retire or not. Ballard needs to sign someone who can stretch the field and be a consistent play-maker that this offense desperately needs at the TE spot.

Disagree, If Doyle wants to come back, we should be ecstatic. He is a top blocking TE in the league. He should NOT be our #1 TE though. We still need to get a better pass catching TE. But if we do that and keep Doyle as the #2, that is lethal.

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21 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Nope...

Posted this in another thread.... 

 

Jack Doyle - better with Wentz 

2020:  PFF 67.0 / YPG 17.9

2021:  71.6 / 17.8

Comments:  no difference in YPG, but graded about 5pts higher, and increased his 1D catches 38% with Wentz....


What about MAC? Here are his grades:

 

2020 - 78.2

2021 - 66.3

 

Massive drop in catch rate too. Not to mention less yds overall and less yds/game this year with MORE targets (aka more involvement). 
 

If Doyle was better with Wentz, then did MAC just do that on his own? Or was it all Reich’s fault?

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, shasta519 said:


What about MAC? Here are his grades:

 

2020 - 78.2

2021 - 66.3

 

Massive drop in catch rate too. Not to mention less yds overall and less yds/game this year with MORE targets (aka more involvement). 
 

If Doyle was better with Wentz, then did MAC just do that on his own? Or was it all Reich’s fault?

 

Well, MACs routes were very different this year. He doubled his snaps from the slot, and we didn't see near the sails. A lot more flat and sideline post ups... 

 

He did have twice as many TDs this year than last... 

 

His TCR and CCR both declined

 

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I think Jack is done.

M.A.C. has peaked as a serviceable 2nd TE option, with some skills in both route running and blocking.

Granson is primarily a receiving TE more than a blocker.  He's still new, and needs to grow more.

I think we need to draft a TE that is more blocker than receiver, but still can do both.

Don't want to diminish our blocking for JT in the running game.

Looking at Jake Ferguson from Wisconsin, who fits that role.

Here's the write-up on him, from The Draft Network:

 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/jake-ferguson/RpTAOACw2q

 

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Doyle is fine.  Frank doesn't make the reads or throw the ball either.  I'm expecting a different TE next season.

 

Not sure that Ertz and Granson wouldn't be playing the same role, so I wouldn't necessarily expect Ertz to be added.

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If Tom Brady were the colts qb, would people still be saying the same things? I don’t think so. Everyone would be talking about strengthening the defense. I do want the colts to draft a te, but he qb play has to get a lot better. Without that, it doesn’t matter how good the receivers are.

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9 minutes ago, husker61 said:

If Tom Brady were the colts qb, would people still be saying the same things? I don’t think so. Everyone would be talking about strengthening the defense. I do want the colts to draft a te, but he qb play has to get a lot better. Without that, it doesn’t matter how good the receivers are.

If Tom Brady was QB he would probably make Mo look like Gronk and Pittman look like Evans lmao  especially with Taylor at RB, sounds funny but I wouldn't doubt it. Mo is very athletic and Pittman has good potential.

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18 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

If Tom Brady was QB he would probably make Mo look like Gronk and Pittman look like Evans lmao  especially with Taylor at RB, sounds funny but I wouldn't doubt it. Mo is very athletic and Pittman has good potential.

 

Prime quality of a franchise QB - makes everyone around him better.  

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38 minutes ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

Sign Nelson to trade friendly deal, package Hines, Nelson, Wentz to trade SF for Garappolo and Kittle and a pick or cap dump player. Bring back Pryor Reed and Glow.

Pryor, Reed, Kelly, Glow, Smith is a solid line...

 

I get the idea but...

  • Will Nelson agree to trade friendly deal?  I can't say I know exactly what that means, but if Nelson doesn't get the deal he wants he just plays out the year.  Then what?
  • Why would SF even want Wentz?
  • SF is already poised to move on from Garoppolo.  There is a reason for that.  I actually like the guy but is he really worth all of this?  Can he take us to a Superbowl?  If not I don't see the point.
  • Do you think SF is willing to move to their new, young, QB without having Kittle as a great option in the passing game?

I understand lots of people are looking for ways to upgrade/improve but this just doesn't seem realistic.  Plus I feel like any move to get another middle of the pack QB is not worth it.  Now if SF goes deep into the playoffs and Jimmy looks good that could change the story, but then it will also change his value.

 

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Honestly I'd just as soon prefer for Doyle and Hilton retire.....lack of production, injuries and father time catches up with everyone.

 

Heck, same reason I chose to retire from the Army - my body simply couldn't keep up anymore with most of my young Soldiers.

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4 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

Honestly I'd just as soon prefer for Doyle and Hilton retire.....lack of production, injuries and father time catches up with everyone.

 

Heck, same reason I chose to retire from the Army - my body simply couldn't keep up anymore with most of my young Soldiers.

I want them to retire because it allows us to move ok and actually upgrade. Then if pascal goes too that 3 spots we can get better at.

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