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Russell Wilson and our Secondary...


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Wentz is not the answer. I question Frank Reich as a head coach as well. Trade what it takes to make Wilson our QB1 or at least land Mariota...and for God's sake we need a true FS for our Tampa 2 zone scheme, you have to have a true ball hawk for it work. We haven't had a good consistent FS since Mike Adams. Our whole secondary plays like SSs, good tacklers weak in coverage. Maybe Rhodes takes a pay cut and makes a transition to FS because he sure the hell can't play CB anymore...

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8 minutes ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

 we need a true FS for our Tampa 2 zone scheme, you have to have a true ball hawk for it work. We haven't had a good consistent FS since Mike Adams. Our whole secondary plays like SSs, good tacklers weak in coverage. 

I agree with this part, 100%

 

Its not exactly a Tampa 2 anymore though, as there are a few wrinkles added to it

 

No free safety is NO BUENO

 

Blackmon is MUCH more of a SS than a FS

 

A FS and improved pass rush, and this defense would step up a few notches

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The back end of the D would work if the front end did its job.  I’m not just blaming the players for lack of pass rush though.  An equal amount of blame can be spread to the GM (mainly for dumping Autry), the position coaches (for not developing players) and the DC for the scheme.

 

When two different inexperienced QBs for the worst team in the league have career days against you, you have to admit something is wrong.  

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3 hours ago, Smonroe said:

The back end of the D would work if the front end did its job.  I’m not just blaming the players for lack of pass rush though.  An equal amount of blame can be spread to the GM (mainly for dumping Autry), the position coaches (for not developing players) and the DC for the scheme.

 

When two different inexperienced QBs for the worst team in the league have career days against you, you have to admit something is wrong.  

It would be better, but we STILL need a free safety

 

IMHO

 

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4 hours ago, Smonroe said:

The back end of the D would work if the front end did its job.  I’m not just blaming the players for lack of pass rush though.  An equal amount of blame can be spread to the GM (mainly for dumping Autry), the position coaches (for not developing players) and the DC for the scheme.

 

When two different inexperienced QBs for the worst team in the league have career days against you, you have to admit something is wrong.  

I agree the front end underwhelmed... Kwity Paye showed great potential but didn't shine, and Buckner definitely regressed from the previous season. We banked on two rooks to assist Buckner, high risk low reward. But we really need a safety that can cover as good as they tackle. Willis , Blackmon, and Sandejo all are just good tacklers... I'd like to see Eberflus throw a little more man coverage in earlier in games...ourstyle seems to be a TEs dream, TEs eat us alive year in and year out...

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Guys, I’m not arguing against getting a good FS.  And I know great ones can make a defense, as well as that they are hard to find.  
 

I’m just saying the position wouldn’t be as important in our D if we had a good pass rush.  

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5 hours ago, Smonroe said:

Guys, I’m not arguing against getting a good FS.  And I know great ones can make a defense, as well as that they are hard to find.  
 

I’m just saying the position wouldn’t be as important in our D if we had a good pass rush.  

Ballard dropped the ball counting on two rooks to fill Autrys and Houstons roles...(1 being on IR for half the season) Buckner regressed because he is slightly over rated or didn't get help and was doubled more than the previous season. We should have kept one of the two to help the transition. We have to get a true ball hawk free safety to be successful in our zone heavy schemes. We had Bethea who was underrated during the Dungy years...

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11 hours ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

Wentz is not the answer. I question Frank Reich as a head coach as well. Trade what it takes to make Wilson our QB1 or at least land Mariota...and for God's sake we need a true FS for our Tampa 2 zone scheme, you have to have a true ball hawk for it work. We haven't had a good consistent FS since Mike Adams. Our whole secondary plays like SSs, good tacklers weak in coverage. Maybe Rhodes takes a pay cut and makes a transition to FS because he sure the hell can't play CB anymore...

Wilson and Ciara won't ever move to Indy.

 

Agree we need a true FS.

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15 hours ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

Wentz is not the answer. I question Frank Reich as a head coach as well. Trade what it takes to make Wilson our QB1 or at least land Mariota...and for God's sake we need a true FS for our Tampa 2 zone scheme, you have to have a true ball hawk for it work. We haven't had a good consistent FS since Mike Adams. Our whole secondary plays like SSs, good tacklers weak in coverage. Maybe Rhodes takes a pay cut and makes a transition to FS because he sure the hell can't play CB anymore...


Whether or not Wentz is ever the answer, guys like Wilson and Rodgers are not coming to Indianapolis — ever. 
 

They hold all the power.   Even if we coukd make an acceptable offer, the QBs would block the deal.  Both would simply tell Indy that when their contract is up in a year, they won’t re-sign with the Colts.  That would end the trade talk right there.   DOA. 
 

If your dead set against another year of Wentz, then you’d better lower your sights.  Guys like Garappolo, or Darnold or, Bridgewater, or,  if they become available,  guys like Mayfield or Cousins.   Those would be the most likely targets.   

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5 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:


Whether or not Wentz is ever the answer, guys like Wilson and Rodgers are not coming to Indianapolis — ever. 
 

They hold all the power.   Even if we coukd make an acceptable offer, the QBs would block the deal.  Both would simply tell Indy that when their contract is up in a year, they won’t re-sign with the Colts.  That would end the trade talk right there.   DOA. 
 

If your dead set against another year of Wentz, then you’d better lower your sights.  Guys like Garappolo, or Darnold or, Bridgewater, or,  if they become available,  guys like Mayfield or Cousins.   Those would be the most likely targets.   

Of all of those I think only MAYBE Cousins or a last-year Mayfield would be an upgrade, but he's older now.

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8 minutes ago, Catloaf said:

Of all of those I think only MAYBE Cousins or a last-year Mayfield would be an upgrade, but he's older now.

By older, I assume you’re talking about Cousins and not Mayfield.   One is mid-30’s, the other is mid-20’s. 

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21 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:


Whether or not Wentz is ever the answer, guys like Wilson and Rodgers are not coming to Indianapolis — ever. 
 

They hold all the power.   Even if we coukd make an acceptable offer, the QBs would block the deal.  Both would simply tell Indy that when their contract is up in a year, they won’t re-sign with the Colts.  That would end the trade talk right there.   DOA. 
 

If your dead set against another year of Wentz, then you’d better lower your sights.  Guys like Garappolo, or Darnold or, Bridgewater, or,  if they become available,  guys like Mayfield or Cousins.   Those would be the most likely targets.   

Out of the QB's you mentioned in your last paragraph, I would take Jimmy G. He has won big games and gets rid of the ball quick which fits our offense. He is still young too.

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4 hours ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

Ballard dropped the ball counting on two rooks to fill Autrys and Houstons roles...(1 being on IR for half the season) Buckner regressed because he is slightly over rated or didn't get help and was doubled more than the previous season. We should have kept one of the two to help the transition. We have to get a true ball hawk free safety to be successful in our zone heavy schemes. We had Bethea who was underrated during the Dungy years...


Buckner is not over-rated.  This year he was the only threat on our D-Line.  Everyone else could be handled one on one.   You can make an argument about having kept Autry or Houston.   Fine.  But then that would’ve cut into the snaps Paye and Dayo received and I think Ballard is hoping both will be starters next year.  They needed to gain experience this year.   If Lewis and/or Turay could've stayed healthy, that would’ve been helpful too. 

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6 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:


Whether or not Wentz is ever the answer, guys like Wilson and Rodgers are not coming to Indianapolis — ever. 
 

They hold all the power.   Even if we coukd make an acceptable offer, the QBs would block the deal.  Both would simply tell Indy that when their contract is up in a year, they won’t re-sign with the Colts.  That would end the trade talk right there.   DOA. 
 

If your dead set against another year of Wentz, then you’d better lower your sights.  Guys like Garappolo, or Darnold or, Bridgewater, or,  if they become available,  guys like Mayfield or Cousins.   Those would be the most likely targets.   

 

  EVER EVER EVER    It would be nice if we could end posts with those two

 as possibilities.   

  Garappolo is the only high quality QB out there. He has SOME Superior skills. Health?  And a mighty fine situation with coaching and skill players.lol

  Looking at our coaching, talent, salary construct, Irsays prediction for SB Wins appears folly. Winning a Playoff game is just as likely many years away.

  I read a criticism of Mayock regarding his draft failures with relying on team Captains. That hit home. Personally, i would absolutely lean in that direction for my FB Warriors. Drafting misses sure do hurt!

 Today we seem painted in a corner needing a 12' standing broad jump to get rebooted. I had a lot of Faith in Frank knowing and wanting Wentz. 
 And it was Warners breakdown that clarified why Wentz's play was so scatter brained. The not taking to coaching theme is real when it comes to decision making. Rivers made Frank look smart!  Wentz the opposite. 

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7 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:


Whether or not Wentz is ever the answer, guys like Wilson and Rodgers are not coming to Indianapolis — ever. 
 

They hold all the power.   Even if we coukd make an acceptable offer, the QBs would block the deal.  Both would simply tell Indy that when their contract is up in a year, they won’t re-sign with the Colts.  That would end the trade talk right there.   DOA. 
 

If your dead set against another year of Wentz, then you’d better lower your sights.  Guys like Garappolo, or Darnold or, Bridgewater, or,  if they become available,  guys like Mayfield or Cousins.   Those would be the most likely targets.   

I know Russell didn't list IND in his four, but maybe he assumed we want Carson. If we could package Kelly, Hines, Blackmon, or Wentz, and some picks...it could be possible...

Just now, TimetobringDfence! said:

I know Russell didn't list IND in his four, but maybe he assumed we want Carson. If we could package Kelly, Hines, Blackmon, or Wentz, and some picks...it could be possible... but maybe unlikely because Ciara don't seem like Naptown material.

 

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I fully expect Wentz to be back, at least for this year

 

Give the guy at least one speedy separation WR (We dont have one, at least healthy)

 

Give the guy a true pass catching TE (We dont have one)

 

Pass block for the guy (We were horrid) and it wasnt just the LT

 

Get mind numbing repetition for Wentz with these receivers in the offseason

(This didn't happen due to his foot)

 

I get the sense that this repetition with a better group of receivers, is what is needed

 

Is Wentz "the guy" ?    I dont know.....  but with his ONLY 1 year cap hit, at least give him the BEST opportunity to succeed

 

Would I spend a LITTLE to get a FA QB like Mariota or Winston?  Maybe on the cheap

 

Would I give up 2 future first round picks for Wilson......  Nope.... THAT is a "band-aide"

 

After all the dust settles , Wentz SHOULD be the started for this year

 

If he fails this coming year, you trade your rear off to move up and get the QB of the future

 

Stroud and Bryce Young are amazing talents that should be coming out in 2023

 

There are a few other QBs that look like they should be ready for the draft in 2023

 

IMHO, our options are truly limited this year.

 

Lets keep building the team around this decision that we already have made .......

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

I fully expect Wentz to be back, at least for this year

 

Give the guy at least one speedy separation WR (We dont have one, at least healthy)

 

Give the guy a true pass catching TE (We dont have one)

 

Pass block for the guy (We were horrid) and it wasnt just the LT

 

Get mind numbing repetition for Wentz with these receivers in the offseason

(This didn't happen due to his foot)

 

I get the sense that this repetition with a better group of receivers, is what is needed

 

Is Wentz "the guy" ?    I dont know.....  but with his ONLY 1 year cap hit, at least give him the BEST opportunity to succeed

 

Would I spend a LITTLE to get a FA QB like Mariota or Winston?  Maybe on the cheap

 

Would I give up 2 future first round picks for Wilson......  Nope.... THAT is a "band-aide"

 

After all the dust settles , Wentz SHOULD be the started for this year

 

If he fails this coming year, you trade your rear off to move up and get the QB of the future

 

Stroud and Bryce Young are amazing talents that should be coming out in 2023

 

There are a few other QBs that look like they should be ready for the draft in 2023

 

IMHO, our options are truly limited this year.

 

Lets keep building the team around this decision that we already have made .......

 

 

 

 

I fell for the trap, he looked good on occasion and I thought that could become the norm for him behind Nelson and company. He holds the ball too long, processes too slow and shows poor/awkward mechanics. He sells the play action well and shows some nifty houdini tricks with that head tuck, while he steps up in the pocket and he has some mobility. Looks like a classic " all the tools and no toolbox," type of player. I like the guy, I think the media slams his character unfairly. He played through some tough injuries. There really aren't a lot of options for Indy in 2022, my prediction is that Wentz returns and plays somewhat better with a better cast of offensive players and better prep.

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7 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:


Buckner is not over-rated.  This year he was the only threat on our D-Line.  Everyone else could be handled one on one.   You can make an argument about having kept Autry or Houston.   Fine.  But then that would’ve cut into the snaps Paye and Dayo received and I think Ballard is hoping both will be starters next year.  They needed to gain experience this year.   If Lewis and/or Turay could've stayed healthy, that would’ve been helpful too. 

I feel like Autry could have helped were Dayo wad healing for sure. Dayo isn't getting enough experience anyway. But I agree Paye needed all the starting reps he will be really good. He just has to push himself to find that burst move to gain a step. He was silently great at setting an edge which isn't a stat. We have run stopping talent everywhere need the pass  rush and coverage to improve dramatically. I like Blackmon and Willis but they both lack coverage skills. Blackmon plays like an undersized SS, we could use him as a trade piece in my opinion. I thought Sandejo was more consistent than Julian anyway. If we can't land RW3 I think we should sign Marcus Mariota for reassurance to compete with Dofus Wentz... we need talent everywhere...LT if Q doesn't take the role, WRs, maybe a TE Reich may have just failed to scheme that position better, we need a FS, one more DE, and a other CB for sure...we are years away from being constant still...

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1 hour ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

I feel like Autry could have helped were Dayo wad healing for sure. Dayo isn't getting enough experience anyway. But I agree Paye needed all the starting reps he will be really good. He just has to push himself to find that burst move to gain a step. He was silently great at setting an edge which isn't a stat. We have run stopping talent everywhere need the pass  rush and coverage to improve dramatically. I like Blackmon and Willis but they both lack coverage skills. Blackmon plays like an undersized SS, we could use him as a trade piece in my opinion. I thought Sandejo was more consistent than Julian anyway. If we can't land RW3 I think we should sign Marcus Mariota for reassurance to compete with Dofus Wentz... we need talent everywhere...LT if Q doesn't take the role, WRs, maybe a TE Reich may have just failed to scheme that position better, we need a FS, one more DE, and a other CB for sure...we are years away from being constant still...

i think Rogers should be used as a single high FS. play a little more man mixed with zone. will need to sigh a shutdown cb in FA and draft a cb

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31 minutes ago, ruf said:

i think Rogers should be used as a single high FS. play a little more man mixed with zone. will need to sigh a shutdown cb in FA and draft a cb

He has the speed, but........He is a bit too short to play that spot IMHO

 

The FS needs to be able defend against very tall WRs and TEs on deep passes that many times turn into a jump ball

 

 

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I just dont see how, without hurting this team even further, you trade for any QB worth getting or even signing one. The Colts beat chance in the 2023 draft. Signing Wentz has now made it so we have to be patient and wait another year and hit 2023 with a rookie QB. They're going to give Wentz one more shot to show something all in all because they have no other choice without basically cashing in on their jobs. 

 

I think even if Wentz shows improvement next year, you cant really trust him to stay a disciplined football player. 

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2 hours ago, ruf said:

i think Rogers should be used as a single high FS. play a little more man mixed with zone. will need to sigh a shutdown cb in FA and draft a cb

That or maybe Rhodes on a cheap deal, he isn't fast enough to play CB anymore but he could transition to a coverage Saftey. Worth the chance for the right price. Rogers does pretty good at CB and would make a hell of a ball hawk FS if willing.

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Just now, TimetobringDfence! said:

That or maybe Rhodes on a cheap deal, he isn't fast enough to play CB anymore but he could transition to a coverage Saftey. Worth the chance for the right price. Rogers does pretty good at CB and would make a hell of a ball hawk FS if willing. I agree with Mike Curtis about Rogers being a little small for FS but so is Blackmon...

 

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21 hours ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

Ballard dropped the ball counting on two rooks to fill Autrys and Houstons roles...(1 being on IR for half the season) Buckner regressed because he is slightly over rated or didn't get help and was doubled more than the previous season. We should have kept one of the two to help the transition. We have to get a true ball hawk free safety to be successful in our zone heavy schemes. We had Bethea who was underrated during the Dungy years...


You think Ballard didn’t know there would be fall off going from Houston and Autry to Paye and Dayo, who he knew would miss at least half the season?

 

Of course he knew.   Remember the delayed gratification interview?   He’s counting on a good jump in performance from both in year two.    He was also counting on getting more from Lewis and Turay.   
 

He knows he didn’t do enough.   He knows his worst fears were realized.   But he didn’t want a 3-year deal with Autry under those terms, and Houston was too pricey as well.  The cap is hard on all teams.   Better a fall off in one year than do a deal that you likely won’t like for multiple years. 

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17 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:


Whether or not Wentz is ever the answer, guys like Wilson and Rodgers are not coming to Indianapolis — ever. 
 

They hold all the power.   Even if we coukd make an acceptable offer, the QBs would block the deal.  Both would simply tell Indy that when their contract is up in a year, they won’t re-sign with the Colts.  That would end the trade talk right there.   DOA. 
 

If your dead set against another year of Wentz, then you’d better lower your sights.  Guys like Garappolo, or Darnold or, Bridgewater, or,  if they become available,  guys like Mayfield or Cousins.   Those would be the most likely targets.   

I will never understand why people always think these big name QBs are coming to Indy. Indy is a small market team. Historically we never get big time FAs at any position.

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21 hours ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

Ballard dropped the ball counting on two rooks to fill Autrys and Houstons roles...(1 being on IR for half the season) Buckner regressed because he is slightly over rated or didn't get help and was doubled more than the previous season. We should have kept one of the two to help the transition. We have to get a true ball hawk free safety to be successful in our zone heavy schemes. We had Bethea who was underrated during the Dungy years...

 

I wouldn't say Ballard dropped the ball.  I am sure he knew exactly what he was doing.  Autry and Houston weren't the answer either so he decided to let the young guys get in there and learn.  I am sure he knew our new DEs weren't going to look like Freeney and Mathis this year.

 

Was it a great decision - I don't know.  But I am sure this was anticipated by Ballard.

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5 hours ago, NannyMcafee said:

I just dont see how, without hurting this team even further, you trade for any QB worth getting or even signing one. The Colts beat chance in the 2023 draft. Signing Wentz has now made it so we have to be patient and wait another year and hit 2023 with a rookie QB. They're going to give Wentz one more shot to show something all in all because they have no other choice without basically cashing in on their jobs. 

 

I think even if Wentz shows improvement next year, you cant really trust him to stay a disciplined football player. 

I agree with most of this

 

IMHO Wentz needs to improve 10-15% to be a good enough QB to get this team to a SB

 

If he doesn't improve next year, it IS time to move away from him

 

But.....

He played well enough to dominate Buffalo - Playoff team

He played well enough to beat NE - Playoff team

He played well enough to beat the Cardinals - Playoff team

He played well enough to beat SF - Playoff team

He played well enough to beat Miami - Who barely missed the playoffs

He played us to the wire against last years SB winner - TB, and playoff team

He played us to the wire against TN at home - Playoff team

He played us to the wire on Baltimore - Who barely missed the playoffs

He played us to the wire against LA Rams - Playoff team

He played us to the wire against the LV Raiders - Playoff team

 

I think we have a conveinent scape goat......  

 

Imagine if we WERENT the 30th ranked pass blocking team

Imagine if we had ONE healthy and dangerous, separation WR

Imagine if we had ONE Dangerous TE

Imagine if we had a LT that could pass block

Imagine if we had a pass rush that wasn't near last in pressures

Imagine if we had an actual FREE SAFETY on this team 

Imagine if we would have had a full camp from Carson

 

I am not ready to give up on the guy even though he needs to improve, but its EXTREMELY UNFAIR

to blame Carson for everything

 

He was the 10th ranked QB 

 

Im not yet ready to throw in the towel on the guy

 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

I will never understand why people always think these big name QBs are coming to Indy. Indy is a small market team. Historically we never get big time FAs at any position.

I don’t either. They think money is the only thing needed, but don’t realize what it means to move to Indiana. This is not a destination state by any means. I’m still confused why Luck stays around. I guess for laying low?

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39 minutes ago, gspdx said:

 

I wouldn't say Ballard dropped the ball.  I am sure he knew exactly what he was doing.  Autry and Houston weren't the answer either so he decided to let the young guys get in there and learn.  I am sure he knew our new DEs weren't going to look like Freeney and Mathis this year.

 

Was it a great decision - I don't know.  But I am sure this was anticipated by Ballard.

Autry did great for us and in Ten lol. He would have had been nice to have to rotate with Dayo and help take pressure off Paye a Buckner. Maybe not dropping the ball but taking a calculated step back...

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17 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:


Buckner is not over-rated.  This year he was the only threat on our D-Line.  Everyone else could be handled one on one.   You can make an argument about having kept Autry or Houston.   Fine.  But then that would’ve cut into the snaps Paye and Dayo received and I think Ballard is hoping both will be starters next year.  They needed to gain experience this year.   If Lewis and/or Turay could've stayed healthy, that would’ve been helpful too. 

Maybe Buckner faced a higher percentage of double teams this year. But he still regressed a bit. The term overrated was a little harsh...

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1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:


You think Ballard didn’t know there would be fall off going from Houston and Autry to Paye and Dayo, who he knew would miss at least half the season?

 

Of course he knew.   Remember the delayed gratification interview?   He’s counting on a good jump in performance from both in year two.    He was also counting on getting more from Lewis and Turay.   
 

He knows he didn’t do enough.   He knows his worst fears were realized.   But he didn’t want a 3-year deal with Autry under those terms, and Houston was too pricey as well.  The cap is hard on all teams.   Better a fall off in one year than do a deal that you likely won’t like for multiple years. 

What was Houston price to stay with Colts? Cause his deal with Ravens was pretty cheap(IMO) and we had the cap room for him at what the Ravens gave him. I'm not saying he was the answer and should've kept him. 

I do think Ballard needs to bring in a good veteran pass rusher to be a leader in the locker room and someone these young guys need to compete against to get onto the field. 

 

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On 1/17/2022 at 8:57 AM, MikeCurtis said:

I agree with this part, 100%

 

Its not exactly a Tampa 2 anymore though, as there are a few wrinkles added to it

 

No free safety is NO BUENO

 

Blackmon is MUCH more of a SS than a FS

 

A FS and improved pass rush, and this defense would step up a few notches

We should move Blackmon to SS and Kenny Moore to FS (cant cover slots WRs)

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37 minutes ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

Autry did great for us and in Ten lol. He would have had been nice to have to rotate with Dayo and help take pressure off Paye a Buckner. Maybe not dropping the ball but taking a calculated step back...

Buckner was #2 after Donald in term of facing double teams 

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2 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

Kenny Moore is WAAAAY to short to be the FS  - IMHO

 

 

Well we need to move on lol if he not gonna be able to play either safety position for us cause slot ain’t it. Good tackler and blitzer bad coverage and we need corners that can cover just like we need wr that can catch and get open not run block ala pascal 

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

Hooker graded well in Dallas this year...

Not elite, but about 10pts higher than Blackmon... 

Sigh.... 

lol....

Yea hooker and Blackmon would have been good combo , hooker was showing signs of being ball hawk before his injuries 

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21 minutes ago, jbaron04 said:

 

Yea hooker and Blackmon would have been good combo , hooker was showing signs of being ball hawk before his injuries 

 

Yup. But even if they weren't bold enough to make the change, Hooker would have helped tremendously given our injuries this year. He was cheap too. We were blessed to grab Sendejo, who graded out really well vs the pass (passer rating allowed). 

 

Purely my opinion, but I think we simply over-relied on STs abilities for depth Ss. The like the hard hitting guys on kick coverages, and Hooker isn't the most physical. 

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21 minutes ago, jbaron04 said:

Well we need to move on lol if he not gonna be able to play either safety position for us cause slot ain’t it. Good tackler and blitzer bad coverage and we need corners that can cover just like we need wr that can catch and get open not run block ala pascal 

 

Kenny's problems weren't really in the slot in general, they were when he was forced to cover vertical speed WRs. And that's kinda on scheme, and was compounded by injury (when we were forced to play him outside). 

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