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Band-Aid Ballard


boo2202
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1 hour ago, Painterman said:

Me? You're right, he owes me nothing! He QUIT on his team after having just spent the number three overall pick in the draft. Retire in a off season and give your team a chance. 

 

If you think his retirement was a total blindspot, you're 100% wrong. It didn't come out of nowhere, and the personnel/ownership were not unaware of his feelings, even a year before. Heck, there were those in the fanbase who thought it was coming the year before, they were in the minority but they existed, i knew/know a few of those folks. The front office knew what the pain was doing to him. If they had never taken it seriously that he'd walk, that's a failure on their part. Irsay and Ballard.

 

Now, as far as WHEN he quit, it doesnt matter. If a man feels an object is going to kill him if he doesnt remove himself from it, the WHEN is irrelevant. Learning to empathize with such a man is not easy or promised but in your growth as a human being, it is something you must learn otherwise life will pass you by, i promise you. 

The team? Yeah they're a business, they'll be fine. There have been ample opportunities to draft a top QB since the year Luck left, and arguably even before. These decisions made are not on Andrew Luck....they're on the GM for thinking things would unravel in X way and having them unravel in Y way. He has the choice again and must roll the dice but none of this is on 12. The Bucs got Brady and won immediately, you have choices as a GM, the reason you get paid the big bucks is you have to make the difficult choices in strategy that lead you to where you want to go but lets not blame this all on Luck.

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On 1/16/2022 at 10:01 AM, boo2202 said:

Every offense we think we’re two or three pieces away from truly contending. But the sad truth is we’re just one giant piece away from being a great team. 
 

Ballard has treated the QB position like a small sore the past three years now. Just applying a band-aid over it until healed. But the problem is it’s still far from better. I know people will defend him and that’s fine, but he’s handled the most important position on this team completely wrong. People will say the draft yields bust every year but the colts QB’s have been busy every year. At some point you got to take your swing. I’d rather strike out swinging than go down looking. 
 

There has been numerous opportunities for Ballard to either trade up and grab a talented young QB or mortgage picks to bring in someone that could give us a chance and add stability. Instead we go halfway in trading a 1st and 3rd for wentz and praying he figures it out. Once again hoping something sticks. Why not just trade a couple 1st and get a more proven guy or trade back and gain more picks for the next years draft to be able to move up. 
 

As we’ve seen over the first day of playoff football, you must have a talented QB to win in January. A good D, a great RB, and a decent online are only going to take you so far. The AFC is stacked with talented young QB’s and until we quit trying to cover it up and find ours we’re truly always going to be one giant piece away. 
 

Here’s to hoping Ballard admits his mistake and tries this offense to actual correct the mess that has been created at the most important position in football. I actually haven’t seen him as agitated as he was at the end of the year presser. Ballard has done some great things but now it’s time for him to find the biggest piece of the puzzle. 
 

GO COLTS


False!   False!!  FALSE!!!

 

2019:   Luck retired mid-August.  No time to do anything, roll with Jacoby. 
 

2020:   Sign Phillip Rivers.  Have an 10 win season, go to playoffs. 
 

2021:   Trade for Wentz.   The deal looks good right up to the last two weeks of the season.  It proves Ballard’s point he says every year.  Just because you make a move doesn’t mean the move is going to work out.  
 

Look at all the teams that traded up for a quarterback every year in the draft.  Most of those trade ups DON’T work out!!    Yes, it’s the most important position in sports.  But making a move to satisfy and unhappy fan base is what bad franchises do. 
 

We paid a 1 and a 3 for Wentz.   Would you rather we trade up and trade two 1’s and two 3’s or MORE only to have a rookie quarterback who either can’t play or needs 2-3 years to get up to speed?   There are no guarantees!    

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2 hours ago, compuls1v3 said:

If Wentz is the long term solution, how you say he failed only after one year?  Yeah he failed in the two most critical games in the season, but it’s still only one year.  My biggest issue is that both  LT and WR#1 weren’t addressed with AC retiring and TY’s career coming to an end.

I never considered him long-term solution. I wouldn't have given up all that draft capital for him. I thought of him as a good flyer to take on a talented guy with hopes we can rehabilitate him. 

 

Ballard and Reich on the other hand shelled enough resources on him both picks wise and $$-wise that you cannot consider him anything but their long-term solution at QB. 

 

And I can write him off after a year because of the things he's shown and his inability to change some significant flaws in his game that needed to be changed. I disagree he's failed in just two games. He was failing every second week, but was being covered by insane form of the rest of the roster and especially the run game. People just refused to see it because the team was winning despite his no shows in multiple games. 

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37 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:


False!   False!!  FALSE!!!

 

2019:   Luck retired mid-August.  No time to do anything, roll with Jacoby. 
 

2020:   Sign Phillip Rivers.  Have an 10 win season, go to playoffs. 
 

2021:   Trade for Wentz.   The deal looks good right up to the last two weeks of the season.  It proves Ballard’s point he says every year.  Just because you make a move doesn’t mean the move is going to work out.  
 

I disagree. It never looked good. He was having similar games every second week before that. People just refused to see it because Taylor and the defense were dragging this team to wins. In a way.. .exactly the same thing that happened with Brissett - people refused to see his flaws until those flaws started impacting the final scores. 

 

Do you really think Ballard and Reich's comments are only because of those last 2 games? 

 

Oh and BTW... those 2 games still happened, you know... like... you cannot just ignore them as if the season ended in Week 15. 

 

37 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Look at all the teams that traded up for a quarterback every year in the draft.  Most of those trade ups DON’T work out!!    Yes, it’s the most important position in sports.  But making a move to satisfy and unhappy fan base is what bad franchises do. 
 

What about making a move to satisfy an unhappy owner and GM? Is that good? Did Ballard look and sound happy with Wentz to you in that press-conference? 

 

37 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

We paid a 1 and a 3 for Wentz.   Would you rather we trade up and trade two 1’s and two 3’s or MORE only to have a rookie quarterback who either can’t play or needs 2-3 years to get up to speed?   There are no guarantees!    

Yes. Said it at the time. Saying it now. This is not revisionist history on my part - I wanted us to trade up in the draft for whoever QB Ballard and Reich loved. There are no guarantees when you are projecting college prospects. There are different pluses and minuses on each stragety. I thought going for the draft was the better one 'at the time'... and now too. 

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I admit I was blaming Reich for becoming to predicable with the run game. Now looking back he didn’t trust Carson.  When he said Carson needed to win us games now I see why he was saying it. He was telling him he needed to step up. I think Reich is just as disapointed in him as Ballard and Irsay. It’s funny though in the presser after the game he  was saying Wentz is out QB. Then next day changed his tune. 

3 minutes ago, stitches said:

I disagree. It never looked good. He was having similar games every second week before that. People just refused to see it because Taylor and the defense were dragging this team to wins. In a way.. .exactly the same thing that happened with Brissett - people refused to see his flaws until those flaws started impacting the final scores. 

 

Do you really think Ballard and Reich's comments are only because of those last 2 games? 

 

Oh and BTW... those 2 games still happened, you know... like... you cannot just ignore them as if the season ended in Week 15. 

 

What about making a move to satisfy an unhappy owner and GM? Is that good? Did Ballard look and sound happy with Wentz to you in that press-conference? 

 

Yes. Said it at the time. Saying it now. This is not revisionist history on my part - I wanted us to trade up in the draft for whoever QB Ballard and Reich loved. There are no guarantees when you are projecting college prospects. There are different pluses and minuses on each stragety. I thought going for the draft was the better one 'at the time'... and now too. 

Irsay wanted to draft too.

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48 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:


False!   False!!  FALSE!!!

 

2019:   Luck retired mid-August.  No time to do anything, roll with Jacoby. 
 

2020:   Sign Phillip Rivers.  Have an 10 win season, go to playoffs. 
 

2021:   Trade for Wentz.   The deal looks good right up to the last two weeks of the season.  It proves Ballard’s point he says every year.  Just because you make a move doesn’t mean the move is going to work out.  
 

Look at all the teams that traded up for a quarterback every year in the draft.  Most of those trade ups DON’T work out!!    Yes, it’s the most important position in sports.  But making a move to satisfy and unhappy fan base is what bad franchises do. 
 

We paid a 1 and a 3 for Wentz.   Would you rather we trade up and trade two 1’s and two 3’s or MORE only to have a rookie quarterback who either can’t play or needs 2-3 years to get up to speed?   There are no guarantees!    

The deal never looked good. The run game, special teams and defense carried this team. A lot of people wanted so bad to believe Wentz was good they convinced themselves that he was playing well. A lot of Wentz doubters like myself could see he was below avg for most of the season.

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Just now, Nesjan3 said:

The deal never looked good. The run game, special teams and defense carried this team. A lot of people wanted so bad to believe Wentz was good they convinced themselves that he was playing well. A lot of Wentz doubters like myself could see he was below avg for most of the season.

All I wanted from Wentz was to be efficient. When he had to pass make the throw. Big third downs make the throw. He was doing that for awhile. Didn’t have a ton of yards but when he was asked to make a play he did. Burt from that NE game on he wasn’t even doing that. It was all Taylor.

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3 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

I admit I was blaming Reich for becoming to predicable with the run game. Now looking back he didn’t trust Carson.  When he said Carson needed to win us games now I see why he was saying it. He was telling him he needed to step up. I think Reich is just as disapointed in him as Ballard and Irsay. It’s funny though in the presser after the game he  was saying Wentz is out QB. Then next day changed his tune. 

Irsay wanted to draft too.


On the Irsay line, as I demonstrated yesterday, thus is false.   If you think you’re right, go back and find it.   Otherwise, you’ve taken a position that as far as I can tell is supported by no one else.   
 

No fans.   No local media.   No national media. 
That’s never stopped you before but at some point the facts don’t support you. 

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4 minutes ago, Nesjan3 said:

The deal never looked good. The run game, special teams and defense carried this team. A lot of people wanted so bad to believe Wentz was good they convinced themselves that he was playing well. A lot of Wentz doubters like myself could see he was below avg for most of the season.

Yeah, he had some great games and moments(Ravens game, Arizona TD), but any competent QB with the talent and physical ability of Wentz can have that if given 17 games. But when you look at the entire body of work it's just not good enough and it's not good enough in ways that usually don't improve especially since he has history of being bad in those same ways before. 

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5 minutes ago, Nesjan3 said:

The deal never looked good. The run game, special teams and defense carried this team. A lot of people wanted so bad to believe Wentz was good they convinced themselves that he was playing well. A lot of Wentz doubters like myself could see he was below avg for most of the season.


You’re making two different arguments.

 

One is the deal.   The other is his performance.   This thread started with someone making the claim that Ballard hasn’t done enough to fix the Quarterback.   That’s a different argument than whether or not Wentz was good enough.   I’m not defending Wentz as much as I’m defending the decisions Ballard has made in real time. 

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1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:


On the Irsay line, as I demonstrated yesterday, thus is false.   If you think you’re right, go back and find it.   Otherwise, you’ve taken a position that as far as I can tell is supported by no one else.   
 

No fans.   No local media.   No national media. 
That’s never stopped you before but at some point the facts don’t support you. 

Go back to around TC. He said they had been looking at how they would find a QB in the draft.  He talked about how that was the ideal scenerio but also acknowledged with the roster we had a vet QB made a lot of sense. You want me to find them I will.

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11 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

I admit I was blaming Reich for becoming to predicable with the run game. Now looking back he didn’t trust Carson.  When he said Carson needed to win us games now I see why he was saying it. He was telling him he needed to step up. I think Reich is just as disapointed in him as Ballard and Irsay. It’s funny though in the presser after the game he  was saying Wentz is out QB. Then next day changed his tune. 

Irsay wanted to draft too.

I still don't know what Frank is thinking. Their relationship is weird to me so, I will just leave it at that... I guess we will see what Frank and more importantly Ballard think of him when it's time for them to push their chips in the middle of the table. 

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2 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:


You’re making two different arguments.

 

One is the deal.   The other is his performance.   This thread started with someone making the claim that Ballard hasn’t done enough to fix the Quarterback.   That’s a different argument than whether or not Wentz was good enough.   I’m not defending Wentz as much as I’m defending the decisions Ballard has made in real time. 

Im just replying to your one statement "The deal looked good until the final 2 weeks", which isn't really true if you were looking strictly at quarterback play of the team. Was he doing just enough to compliment the run game and defense...maybe just enough. Was he looking like a great quarterback worth a 1st and a 3rd. Certainly not IMO, and many others.

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17 hours ago, zibby43 said:


I was addressing Wentz alone.  Nonetheless, I’ll bite.

 

The easiest example would be in 2020, when Ballard could’ve drafted Justin Herbert.  That could’ve been easily accomplished, as he was selected only a mere few spots away from where we would’ve picked, but for the Buckner trade.

 

Ballard would admit today he and his staff whiffed on their Herbert evaluation.  Devastating mistake for the franchise.

 

Or, last year, trading similar assets to what we surrendered for Wentz to move up for someone like Mac Jones, who was my favorite QB prospect in the class, along with Fields.

 

I think Ballard has done a great job at finding both diamonds in the rough and a steady stream of contributors in the middle rounds.  
 

But . . . he and his team of assistant coaches, scouts, and talent evaluators are not very good at evaluating young QB talent, edge talent, and WR talent.  And those are, unfortunately for our roster construction, the 3 most important position groups in the league right now.

The Buckner trade was a GREAT trade!!!!  And given the trade, your Herbert point is moot, for the pick was already gone to bring in the All-Pro DT, which again, was a great trade at the time it was made and even still, now.

 

The last year scenario is pure conjecture, as there is no guarantee whatsoever that Jones or Fields would be an upgrade.

 

Plus, when you think about it, Ballard DID swing for the fences in getting the QB his coach so desperately wanted in Wentz. I had preferred and was hoping for Stafford, but at the price the Rams paid, I am glad the Colts didn’t up the ante to get him.  I was hopeful for Wentz, but now after this year’s performance, I am dubious.  That being said, unless coach Reich has changed his stance on Wentz, I am pretty sure Wentz gets one more year to repair himself.  In the meantime, get a bonifide #1 @ WR, get a long term LT prospect (and maybe re-sign Fisher, with the hopes that an extra year removed from his injury, he can hold down the Fort until your LT prospect is ready to go, shore up the CB position, and relieve Reich of play calling.

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16 minutes ago, stitches said:

I disagree. It never looked good. He was having similar games every second week before that. People just refused to see it because Taylor and the defense were dragging this team to wins. In a way.. .exactly the same thing that happened with Brissett - people refused to see his flaws until those flaws started impacting the final scores. 

 

Do you really think Ballard and Reich's comments are only because of those last 2 games? 

 

Oh and BTW... those 2 games still happened, you know... like... you cannot just ignore them as if the season ended in Week 15. 

 

What about making a move to satisfy an unhappy owner and GM? Is that good? Did Ballard look and sound happy with Wentz to you in that press-conference? 

 

Yes. Said it at the time. Saying it now. This is not revisionist history on my part - I wanted us to trade up in the draft for whoever QB Ballard and Reich loved. There are no guarantees when you are projecting college prospects. There are different pluses and minuses on each stragety. I thought going for the draft was the better one 'at the time'... and now too. 

 

The move that should have been done was bring back Rivers and used our draft picks to move up and draft a rookie they liked. 

 

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2 minutes ago, stitches said:

I still don't know what Frank is thinking. Their relationship is weird to me so, I will just leave it at that... I guess we will see what Frank and more importantly Ballard think of him when it's time for them to push their chips in the middle of the table. 

There is no doubt he was a good option with his previous success with him. Reich also was in on all the scouting and drafting of him so he knew him well. Ballard was even in on all the scouting as KC liked him a lot in that draft. He just went to high Ballard said.  So this wasn’t gone into blindly by either of them.

 

Here is where I think it went wrong. When I watch his  2017 highlights that isn’t even close to the scheme or playmakers we have on this team. Almost nothing was thrown from the pocket. Meaning he never had to really scan the field and make decisions. Almost everything was a roll out and one read passes down field. It wasn’t a quick passing game at all.  AI did they not take that into consideration when they traded for him.

1 minute ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

The move that should have been done was bring back Rivers and used our draft picks to move up and draft a rookie they liked. 

 

Rivers retired 

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4 minutes ago, Nesjan3 said:

Im just replying to your one statement "The deal looked good until the final 2 weeks", which isn't really true if you were looking strictly at quarterback play of the team. Was he doing just enough to compliment the run game and defense...maybe just enough. Was he looking like a great quarterback worth a 1st and a 3rd. Certainly not IMO, and many others.

Fine..   my view is when we were 9-6 and looked like a lock for the playoffs the deal didn’t look bad.   That when we were losing games early on, it wasn’t because of Wentz.  He played well early on TWO bad ankles.   We lost early on because of an under performing defense.   People forget that now after a terrible last two weeks. 

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2 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

There is no doubt he was a good option with his previous success with him. Reich also was in on all the scouting and drafting of him so he knew him well. Ballard was even in on all the scouting as KC liked him a lot in that draft. He just went to high Ballard said.  So this wasn’t gone into blindly by either of them.

 

Here is where I think it went wrong. When I watch his  2017 highlights that isn’t even close to the scheme or playmakers we have on this team. Almost nothing was thrown from the pocket. Meaning he never had to really scan the field and make decisions. Almost everything was a roll out and one read passes down field. It wasn’t a quick passing game at all.  AI did they not take that into consideration when they traded for him.

Rivers retired 

 

Rivers told a cbs announcer before the buffalo playoff game he would want to come back if the colts wanted him.....colts didn't show the desire or delayed so he retired. 

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3 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

Go back to around TC. He said they had been looking at how they would find a QB in the draft.  He talked about how that was the ideal scenerio but also acknowledged with the roster we had a vet QB made a lot of sense. You want me to find them I will.

Last year they said a vet QB made sense.  I think they will come to the same conclusion again this year.  Now the rubber meets the road again.  If not Wentz who?  I just read an interesting article on the Giants.  New GM and coach coming in.  Flores is a leading candidate and it's no secret he loves Watson and would love to coach him.  New York is New York.  Daniel Jones 5th year option is coming up and everyone is expecting it to be declined making his 22 cap hit 8m.  He has a losing record on a bad team with a bad OL.  Some injury history because of it.  But if somehow Watson ends up in NY or Wilson or any big time QB Jones could be available.  If we stay with Wentz he might be a good one to bring in behind him.  Lots of possibilities.  Going to be an interesting off season for sure. 

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6 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

Rivers told a cbs announcer before the buffalo playoff game he would want to come back if the colts wanted him.....colts didn't show the desire or delayed so he retired. 

Things change. He also mentioned when he retired his kids asked him when he was going to retire. 

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8 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

Things change. He also mentioned when he retired his kids asked him when he was going to retire. 

 

Didn't he also say a few months ago when his HS coaching his season ends he could join a team during the season .... I don't remember for sure of he said that or it was rumoured?

 

"Philip Rivers on NFL comeback: 'I have not completely ruled that out'" https://www.nfl.com/_amp/philip-rivers-on-nfl-comeback-i-have-not-completely-ruled-that-out

 

But I think there's was a strong chance he would have been our QB if the colts told him they wanted him back right away.

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1 minute ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

Didn't he also say a few months ago when his HS coaching his season ends he could join a team during the season .... I don't remember for sure of he said that or it was rumoured?

 

But I think there's was a strong chance he would have been our QB if the colts told him they wanted him back right away.

He said after the highschool season was over.  Reich said immediatly he wanted him back.

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9 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Last year they said a vet QB made sense.  I think they will come to the same conclusion again this year.  Now the rubber meets the road again.  If not Wentz who?  I just read an interesting article on the Giants.  New GM and coach coming in.  Flores is a leading candidate and it's no secret he loves Watson and would love to coach him.  New York is New York.  Daniel Jones 5th year option is coming up and everyone is expecting it to be declined making his 22 cap hit 8m.  He has a losing record on a bad team with a bad OL.  Some injury history because of it.  But if somehow Watson ends up in NY or Wilson or any big time QB Jones could be available.  If we stay with Wentz he might be a good one to bring in behind him.  Lots of possibilities.  Going to be an interesting off season for sure. 

Thats a pretty good take.   The option is not Jimmy G.   There is a reason the 9ers are moving away from him.  They have seen his ceiling and it is Alex Smith.      As far as just ripping off the bandaid and cutting Wentz and rolling with another stop gap.  like has been mentioned by a few here.    Why would the do that?  Why waste the money we owe AND bring in someone who will amount to what Wentz is.    

 

Give Frank one more yr just for stability purposes and see how the offseason works out for Wentz      Daniel Jones behind Wentz is one of the better ideas I've read on here.   

 

Sorry all of this is not directed at you.  I still only get 5 posts a day so I have to cover a lot in each post LOL. 

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16 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

The move that should have been done was bring back Rivers and used our draft picks to move up and draft a rookie they liked. 

 

 

 I thought Ballard made it clear there wasn't anyone they liked well enough to do that considering the draft capital that it Probably would have taken. 

 His thoughts on LT were the same.
 Of course i believe he had info on Wentz and Fisher pre-draft that he felt positive about.  Frank sold him a line. Was the "Wentz not taking coaching" more about them not getting the FB 101 stuff through his thick skull?

 

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Just now, throwing BBZ said:

 

 I thought Ballard made it clear there wasn't anyone they liked well enough to do that considering the draft capital that it Probably would have taken. 

 His thoughts on LT were the same.
 Of course i believe he had info on Wentz and Fisher pre-draft that he felt positive about.  Frank sold him a line. Was the "Wentz not taking coaching" more about them not getting the FB 101 stuff through his thick skull?

 

Reich didn’t sell Ballard anything. Ballard was in KC when Wentz was drafted. Ballard knew everything about Wentz with all the pre draft work he did. Ballard even said they liked him a lot in KC but he ended up going too high.

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23 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

Give me a scenario where we would definitely be in better shape as a team with different decisions made by Ballard since Luck retired.  Please include who our QB would be, the salary cap, what draft picks and players would be different and a logical reason why we would be better off had Ballard done things differently in regards to qb (e.g., if instead of trading for Buckner, we used that pick to trade up for a qb, justify how our DL and overall D wouldn't be a major liability).  I'm asking since the original post and my response were about Ballard's inability to do more than put a bandaid on the qb position. 

 

This is sort of a fallacy where we act like the Colts had no choice but to trade for Wentz. And even if I came up with an answer, people would just say "hindsight is 20/20."

 

But I will play along.

 

Option A - Keep the #13 pick in 2020. Use that in conjunction with your 2021 1st round pick, 2022 1st round pick to move up to #4 for Justin Herbert. No way the NYG pass on that...and the Colts might have even gotten back something like a 4th rounder.

 

Prior to doing this blockbuster, use FA to bolster the DT position and any other positions you might want to (depending on cap space and if you did or didn't sign Rivers). 

 

Players Lost

  • DeForest Buckner
  • Kwity Paye
  • Carson Wentz

Money Back

  • $18M in 2020 (difference between DeFo and Herbert)
  • $41-42M in 2021 (DeFo + Wentz + Paye)
  • $47M in 2022 (DeFo + Wentz + Paye)

Moves Made

  • Sign Javon Hargrave for 3/$33M in 2020 ($11M AAV)
  • Sign Trey Hendrickson for 4/$60M in 2021 ($15M AAV)
  • Retain Autry for 3/$24M in 2021 ($8M AAV)

Money Gained

  • $7M in 2020 (DeFo - (Hargrave + Herbert))
  • $3-4M in 2021 ((DeFo + Wentz + Paye) - (Hargrave + Herbert + Hendrickson + Autry))
  • $7M in 2022 ((DeFo + Wentz + Paye) - (Hargrave + Herbert + Hendrickson + Autry))

Players Gained

  • Javon Hargrave (2020-)
  • Trey Hendrickson (2021-)
  • Denico Autry (2021-)
  • Justin Herbert (2020-)

 

You could also sub out Hendrickson for Judon or Ngakoue and re-do the math. Either way, you actually save cap space AND likely get better production out of a Hargrave + Hendrickson/Judon/Ngakoue + Autry DL.

 

And with Autry, maybe you don't draft Dayo, which becomes another player (possibly Freiermuth).

 

And of course and most importantly, you get Justin Herbert on a rookie deal.

 

That's just one option. The easier option of course is swapping out Paye + Wentz for Fields/Jones (and getting back Wentz's cap hit).

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4 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

This is sort of a fallacy where we act like the Colts had no choice but to trade for Wentz. And even if I came up with an answer, people would just say "hindsight is 20/20."

 

But I will play along.

 

Option A - Keep the #13 pick in 2020. Use that in conjunction with your 2021 1st round pick, 2022 1st round pick to move up to #4 for Justin Herbert. No way the NYG pass on that...and the Colts might have even gotten back something like a 4th rounder.

 

Prior to doing this blockbuster, use FA to bolster the DT position and any other positions you might want to (depending on cap space and if you did or didn't sign Rivers). 

 

Players Lost

  • DeForest Buckner
  • Kwity Paye
  • Carson Wentz

Money Back

  • $18M in 2020 (difference between DeFo and Herbert)
  • $41-42M in 2021 (DeFo + Wentz + Paye)
  • $47M in 2022 (DeFo + Wentz + Paye)

Moves Made

  • Sign Javon Hargrave for 3/$33M in 2020 ($11M AAV)
  • Sign Trey Hendrickson for 4/$60M in 2021 ($15M AAV)
  • Retain Autry for $8M in 2021

Money Gained

  • $7M in 2020 (DeFo - (Hargrave + Herbert))
  • $3-4M in 2021 ((DeFo + Wentz + Paye) - (Hargrave + Herbert + Hendrickson + Autry))
  • $7M in 2022 ((DeFo + Wentz + Paye) - (Hargrave + Herbert + Hendrickson + Autry))

Players Gained

  • Javon Hargrave (2020-)
  • Trey Hendrickson (2021-)
  • Denico Autry (2021-)
  • Justin Herbert (2020-)

You could also sub out Hendrickson for Judon or Ngakoue and re-do the math. Either way, you actually save cap space AND likely get better production out of a Hargrave + Hendrickson/Judon/Ngakoue + Autry DL.

 

And with Autry, maybe you don't draft Dayo, which becomes another player (possibly Freiermuth).

 

And of course and most importantly, you get Justin Herbert on a rookie deal.

 

That's just one option. The easier option of course is swapping out Paye + Wentz for Fields (and getting back Wentz's cap hit).

The only issue with that is as soon as you call about moving up they make the call to the chargers. Because then giants don’t have to move down as far. They are going to take that deal rather then moving down to 13.  Would of had to include a lot for them to take that over letting chargers move up a couple spots. Last years draft was a much more realistic time to move up.

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21 hours ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

Bears only were one spot ahead and got fields. That could of happened too. Ballard has failed to have a plan. He is just winging it Instead Of having a plan in place. He did the same thing with LT.

Winging it?  I hardly think that Ballard has been winging it when it comes to the QB position.  IMO, this has been the one thing he has sweated over more than anything.  I think when the Ballard years are over, and we write the book on his management of the team, the long, dark shadow of Luck's retirement will blanket everything that Ballard ever decided.  The good decisions, like trading up with Cleveland to take Jonathan Taylor in the 2nd round, or trading the 13th overall pick for DeForest Buckner rather than draft Jevon Kinlaw.  The bad decisions, like drafting Rock Ya-Sin two spots before Deebo Samuel was taken.  Or taking Ben Banogu two spots before A. J. Brown in the same round of the same draft.  Or decisions that will generate debate forever, like taking a Hall Of Fame guard at the 6th overall.  But all of those are overshadowed by Luck's retirement, and Ballard having to figure out what to do.  Do you trade lots of valuable picks to move up to #5 just to get Justin Herbert?  But you wind up not having Buckner nor JT?  Or trading up to get Mac Jones before the Patriots do, but you don't get Paye and probably others as well.  Or do you bring in an aging Rivers as a stop-gap, because you know he's better than Brissett.  Or do you bring in Wentz because he's younger, should play longer, and you're trading the following year's pick to do it?  Sweating.  Sweating.  Sweating.  I don't see winging it here.

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11 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

Winging it?  I hardly think that Ballard has been winging it when it comes to the QB position.  IMO, this has been the one thing he has sweated over more than anything.  I think when the Ballard years are over, and we write the book on his management of the team, the long, dark shadow of Luck's retirement will blanket everything that Ballard ever decided.  The good decisions, like trading up with Cleveland to take Jonathan Taylor in the 2nd round, or trading the 13th overall pick for DeForest Buckner rather than draft Jevon Kinlaw.  The bad decisions, like drafting Rock Ya-Sin two spots before Deebo Samuel was taken.  Or taking Ben Banogu two spots before A. J. Brown in the same round of the same draft.  Or decisions that will generate debate forever, like taking a Hall Of Fame guard at the 6th overall.  But all of those are overshadowed by Luck's retirement, and Ballard having to figure out what to do.  Do you trade lots of valuable picks to move up to #5 just to get Justin Herbert?  But you wind up not having Buckner nor JT?  Or trading up to get Mac Jones before the Patriots do, but you don't get Paye and probably others as well.  Or do you bring in an aging Rivers as a stop-gap, because you know he's better than Brissett.  Or do you bring in Wentz because he's younger, should play longer, and you're trading the following year's pick to do it?  Sweating.  Sweating.  Sweating.  I don't see winging it here.

When they don’t have a QB that always comes first. 

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1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:


False!   False!!  FALSE!!!

 

2019:   Luck retired mid-August.  No time to do anything, roll with Jacoby. 
 

2020:   Sign Phillip Rivers.  Have an 10 win season, go to playoffs. 
 

2021:   Trade for Wentz.   The deal looks good right up to the last two weeks of the season.  It proves Ballard’s point he says every year.  Just because you make a move doesn’t mean the move is going to work out.  
 

Look at all the teams that traded up for a quarterback every year in the draft.  Most of those trade ups DON’T work out!!    Yes, it’s the most important position in sports.  But making a move to satisfy and unhappy fan base is what bad franchises do. 
 

We paid a 1 and a 3 for Wentz.   Would you rather we trade up and trade two 1’s and two 3’s or MORE only to have a rookie quarterback who either can’t play or needs 2-3 years to get up to speed?   There are no guarantees!    

The season was a huge question mark after the start we had. The talent pool we had to choose from wasn't great at QB but we pulled the trigger anyway.

 Most great QBs don't move from team to team and I think people forget that. Right about the draft and moving up. Spending multiple picks is something that horrible franchises do to placate their fan bases and sell tickets because the product on the field doesn't warrant the cost of a ticket.

 In saying this I wish we would have held onto our first and kept Rivers one more year. If for no other reason than to get a true playmakimg WR or solidify the line with a premium LT. 

 

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On 1/16/2022 at 1:01 PM, boo2202 said:

Every offense we think we’re two or three pieces away from truly contending. But the sad truth is we’re just one giant piece away from being a great team. 
 

Ballard has treated the QB position like a small sore the past three years now. Just applying a band-aid over it until healed. But the problem is it’s still far from better. I know people will defend him and that’s fine, but he’s handled the most important position on this team completely wrong. People will say the draft yields bust every year but the colts QB’s have been busy every year. At some point you got to take your swing. I’d rather strike out swinging than go down looking. 
 

There has been numerous opportunities for Ballard to either trade up and grab a talented young QB or mortgage picks to bring in someone that could give us a chance and add stability. Instead we go halfway in trading a 1st and 3rd for wentz and praying he figures it out. Once again hoping something sticks. Why not just trade a couple 1st and get a more proven guy or trade back and gain more picks for the next years draft to be able to move up. 
 

As we’ve seen over the first day of playoff football, you must have a talented QB to win in January. A good D, a great RB, and a decent online are only going to take you so far. The AFC is stacked with talented young QB’s and until we quit trying to cover it up and find ours we’re truly always going to be one giant piece away. 
 

Here’s to hoping Ballard admits his mistake and tries this offense to actual correct the mess that has been created at the most important position in football. I actually haven’t seen him as agitated as he was at the end of the year presser. Ballard has done some great things but now it’s time for him to find the biggest piece of the puzzle. 
 

GO COLTS

Agreed but the Luck retirement was no easy you can just fix with the snap of the fingers... He did give Jacoby too much money for being unproven. And Rivers was worth the price too bad he didn't come back, much better teacher than Wentz can be. His bigger bandaid was letting Houston and Autry go at once and banking on two rooks (one on IR to be the answer at DE. Then that wound looks worse with with X.Rhodes falling off a cliff and Buckner regressing because of doubles or lack of help. Our D has coverage issues, TEs eat us alive on the seams with no answer, and we lack a true FS...and we need answer at LT, WR, TE, and QB1. We would have been better off with Mariota over Wentz IMHO(price wise and maybe even play wise)...CW has no presnap awareness or ability to throw away a dead play...and coaching wise we have 0 adjustments going in to second half on O or D...

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2 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

The only issue with that is as soon as you call about moving up they make the call to the chargers. Because then giants don’t have to move down as far. They are going to take that deal rather then moving down to 13.  Would of had to include a lot for them to take that over letting chargers move up a couple spots. Last years draft was a much more realistic time to move up.

 

We don't really know that either though. If you offered the NYG #13, 2021 1st rounder, 2021 3rd round pick, 2022 1st round pick...it's very difficult to see a team passing that up. 

 

In 2018, do you think Ballard would have passed up that same offer from BUF (who had the #12 pick) for the NYJ offer? Just to stay at #6 instead of #12? Maybe, but we can't definitely say that. And it's hard to imagine the LAC offering MORE than what the NYJ did for a two-spot jump. That was seen as a colossal win for the Colts. 

 

And in the case of the NYG, they were eying LT, which was really deep in this draft. So we don't know how much difference they would have valued #6 and #13.

 

In the 2017 draft, BUF moved all the way down from #10 to #27 for KC. HOU was only two picks later and wanted a QB, so why they didn't just call HOU and make a trade there so that HOU could ensure they got their guy?

 

Or when CLE was looking to deal the #6 pick in the 2011 draft, why didn't they just call TEN, JAC or MIN (who all took QBs at #8, #10 and #11) and barely move back?

 

There's also FO relationships to consider as well. Ballard seems like a very well-respected GM. I trust that he could win a negotiation if he truly was set on doing so.  

 

But it's all speculation. I just think saying there was NO way the Colts could have drafted Herbert is wrong and it creates a false premise, which in part, fuels this false choice that it was Wentz or crap.

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1 hour ago, stitches said:

I never considered him long-term solution. I wouldn't have given up all that draft capital for him. I thought of him as a good flyer to take on a talented guy with hopes we can rehabilitate him. 

 

Ballard and Reich on the other hand shelled enough resources on him both picks wise and $$-wise that you cannot consider him anything but their long-term solution at QB. 

 

And I can write him off after a year because of the things he's shown and his inability to change some significant flaws in his game that needed to be changed. I disagree he's failed in just two games. He was failing every second week, but was being covered by insane form of the rest of the roster and especially the run game. People just refused to see it because the team was winning despite his no shows in multiple games. 

Just to be clear, I didn’t mean he played well all season except the last two, I just meant he failed the last two when it counted the most, with everything on the line.  All I can hope for at this point is that he can realize his potential, because right now, that is all he’s proven to me, that he has potential.

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6 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

We don't really know that either though. If you offered the NYG #13, 2021 1st rounder, 2021 3rd round pick, 2022 1st round pick...it's very difficult to see a team passing that up. 

 

In 2018, do you think Ballard would have passed up that same offer from BUF (who had the #12 pick) for the NYJ offer? Just to stay at #6 instead of #12? Maybe, but we can't definitely say that. And it's hard to imagine the LAC offering MORE than what the NYJ did for a two-spot jump. That was seen as a colossal win for the Colts. 

 

And in the case of the NYG, they were eying LT, which was really deep in this draft. So we don't know how much difference they would have valued #6 and #13.

 

In the 2017 draft, BUF moved all the way down from #10 to #27 for KC. HOU was only two picks later and wanted a QB, so why they didn't just call HOU and make a trade there so that HOU could ensure they got their guy?

 

Or when CLE was looking to deal the #6 pick in the 2011 draft, why didn't they just call TEN, JAC or MIN (who all took QBs at #8, #10 and #11) and barely move back?

 

There's also FO relationships to consider as well. Ballard seems like a very well-respected GM. I trust that he could win a negotiation if he truly was set on doing so.  

 

But it's all speculation. I just think saying there was NO way the Colts could have drafted Herbert is wrong and it creates a false premise, which in part, fuels this false choice that it was Wentz or crap.

I am not saying there was no way. Just pointing out that there would of been other factors.

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1 hour ago, stitches said:

Yeah, he had some great games and moments(Ravens game, Arizona TD), but any competent QB with the talent and physical ability of Wentz can have that if given 17 games. But when you look at the entire body of work it's just not good enough and it's not good enough in ways that usually don't improve especially since he has history of being bad in those same ways before. 

 

That's the thing. Even JB had some moments. Even 2020 Wentz had some moments.

 

Wentz seems to be a divisive player. So some fans focus on the really positive things and some fans focus on the really negative things. And opinions get based off of that.

 

But it's not about the game vs. BAL...or about the last two games. It's about the bigger picture. And Ballard even referenced that in his presser, multiple times. Not being able to do the small things, inconsistency, regression (performance and mechanics). 

 

 

 

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