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Grigson vs Ballard


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9 minutes ago, IrsaysArmy said:

Ryan Grigson was the worse, in so many ways. His 2012 draft is overrated as well. He inherited a WR1 and an elite Pass rusher and a star QB. He did make a nice trade for Vontae but then made one of the worse trades in history with T. Rich. 
 

I respect and appreciate all your guys opinions (honestly), it’s what makes this forum cool…but I can’t believe there are Colts fans who actually prefer Grigson to Ballard. 

Lol I stopped reading at Laron Landry. I had to 

Has anybody said they prefer Grigson to Ballard?

 

What's the issue with Landry that you would stop short of thinking about it?  He was regarded as a very good thumping SS, and with Bethea at the back end made a very good pairing.  Vontae was a great #1 Corner and Toler was a good #2.  That was a great secondary that year.  The next year or so, Landry went off to build his biceps and Toler got hurt.  Goodness, there isn't a secondary player in the Ballard era that is as clearly better than the worst player in that secondary that year.

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I just asked my buddy this question and he had a great analogy.  Grigson vs Ballard is like debating if Indianapolis or Ft Wayne is better for vacation.  Yeah there is a clear winner. Both have things to offer but nothing is special and will ultimately let you down compared to other places. 

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11 minutes ago, chad72 said:

Landry was terrible. Bethea was not cut, he was not re-signed and Landry was supposed to be his replacement. Bethea did much better with the Cardinals. That was one of the bad moves Grigson made with letting go of Bethea and signing Landry.

Landry was a good SS before he left football, just never lived up to his draft slot.  He played along side Bethea for one year, IIRC.  Grigs let Bethea go after the contract (ok cut isn't the right word) and Adams was signed as a replacement, and he was decent.  I think there may have been a safety in between Bethea and Adams but it wasn't Landry.

 

Landry had coverage issues as a SS, but I don't think any more than Khari Willis.

 

But I'm too lazy to go back through the laundry list of RGs and CBs FA signings

 

Just off the top comparing draft picks that blew out their knee early, I would say that Vic Ballard would have had more impact on the field than Malik Hooker would have had, and Vic was a 5th round pick and Hooker pick 15.

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Would Ballard have drafted Q if we didn't have Luck and needed a QB?

Would he have traded down and acquired all those picks if we didn't have Luck and needed a QB?

Would he have been able to pick Leonard and Nelson if we needed an offensive lineman because we didn't draft Q and we didtn have the picks from trading down for Q?

 

If the answer to that is YES Ballard should have been fired the second he turned in the draft card for Q over a QB if we didn't have one. Lets stop punishing Grigson for having Luck but ignoring how much of this team is built BECAUSE Ballard had Luck too.

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2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Landry was a good SS before he left football, just never lived up to his draft slot.  He played along side Bethea for one year, IIRC.  Grigs let Bethea go after the contract (ok cut isn't the right word) and Adams was signed as a replacement, and he was decent.  I think there may have been a safety in between Bethea and Adams but it wasn't Landry.

 

But I'm too lazy to go back through the laundry list of RGs and CBs FA signings

 

Just off the top comparing draft picks that blew out their knee early, I would say that Vic Ballard would have had more impact on the field than Malik Hooker would have had, and Vic was a 5th round pick and Hooker pick 15.

I’m picking up what you are putting down. I don’t think you are saying Grigson was the better GM but he did clearly do some stuff well. I would take the Grigson secondary over our current lineup. 

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8 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Landry was a good SS before he left football, just never lived up to his draft slot.  He played along side Bethea for one year, IIRC.  Grigs let Bethea go after the contract (ok cut isn't the right word) and Adams was signed as a replacement, and he was decent.  I think there may have been a safety in between Bethea and Adams but it wasn't Landry.

 

Landry had coverage issues as a SS, but I don't think any more than Khari Willis.

 

But I'm too lazy to go back through the laundry list of RGs and CBs FA signings

 

Just off the top comparing draft picks that blew out their knee early, I would say that Vic Ballard would have had more impact on the field than Malik Hooker would have had, and Vic was a 5th round pick and Hooker pick 15.

 

No, he was not with the Colts. He graded out poorly consistently in 2013-2014 when he was with the Colts and one of the wasted contracts under Grigson's tenure. Mike Adams, on the other hand, outplayed his contract.

 

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2014/10/28/7026193/the-colts-must-sit-laron-landry-when-he-comes-back

 

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8 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Landry was a good SS before he left football, just never lived up to his draft slot.  He played along side Bethea for one year, IIRC.  Grigs let Bethea go after the contract (ok cut isn't the right word) and Adams was signed as a replacement, and he was decent.  I think there may have been a safety in between Bethea and Adams but it wasn't Landry.

 

Landry had coverage issues as a SS, but I don't think any more than Khari Willis.

 

But I'm too lazy to go back through the laundry list of RGs and CBs FA signings

 

Just off the top comparing draft picks that blew out their knee early, I would say that Vic Ballard would have had more impact on the field than Malik Hooker would have had, and Vic was a 5th round pick and Hooker pick 15.

I was a HUGE Landry fan. That said, he flamed out badly even before getting hurt. Landry was never in position for coverage. He never really laid the wood as we expected. Really, he spent more time kissing his own biceps than he did doing anything good on the field. 
 

Willis is slightly better in coverage than Landry and wasn’t amongst the highest Pis Safeties in the league. Landry’s performance was easily replaced. He never came close to living up to his salary

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There's a difference between football knowledge and football intelligence. With both Grigson and Ballard there is plenty of football knowledge. Grigson didn't seem to have the intelligence to apply that knowledge - a problem that many coaches seem to have as well. Too early to tell with Ballard as GM.

 

If you don't have enough intelligence, you will never *know* you don't have enough intelligence. Bummer.

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1 minute ago, csmopar said:

I was a HUGE Landry fan. That said, he flamed out badly even before getting hurt. Landry was never in position for coverage. He never really laid the wood as we expected. Really, he spent more time kissing his own biceps than he did doing anything good on the field. 
 

Willis is slightly better in coverage than Landry and wasn’t amongst the highest Pis Safeties in the league. Landry’s performance was easily replaced. He never came close to living up to his salary

I think compared to the other 3 players at the time, he was the weakest player and also had the worst errors, but compared to the players we have now in the secondary, I don't think that he would be much of a drop off.

 

Willis is a 34 SS and was drafted to compliment Hooker's FS role.  He needs to go. That three safety thing isn't going to work either.  

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6 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I think compared to the other 3 players at the time, he was the weakest player and also had the worst errors, but compared to the players we have now in the secondary, I don't think that he would be much of a drop off.

 

Willis is a 34 SS and was drafted to compliment Hooker's FS role.  He needs to go. That three safety thing isn't going to work either.  

 

It will if you have some good hybrid players drafted. New England got Adrian Philips from the Chargers (deja vu like Rodney Harrison from the Chargers) who is used as the 3rd safety in a hybrid LB/safety role. We just need the right player drafted and used for that role, that is all. The 3 safety look is being used by lots of teams.

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17 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

No, he was not with the Colts. He graded out poorly consistently in 2013-2014 when he was with the Colts and one of the wasted contracts under Grigson's tenure. Mike Adams, on the other hand, outplayed his contract.

 

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2014/10/28/7026193/the-colts-must-sit-laron-landry-when-he-comes-back

 

Here is the starting defensive lineup for that 2013 year.:

 

Mathis, Redding, Aubra Franklin, Ricky Jean Francois, Erik Walden

 

Pat Angerer, Jarrell Freeman (forgot about him), 

 

Vontae, Toler, Landry, Bethea.

 

That was a pretty good defense, IMO.  Maybe I was overrating Landry's contribution.

 

Grigson could not sustain what he built though.

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2 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

It will if you have some good hybrid players drafted. New England got Adrian Philips from the Chargers (deja vu like Rodney Harrison from the Chargers) who is used as the 3rd safety in a hybrid LB/safety role. We just need the right player drafted and used for that role, that is all. The 3 safety look is being used by lots of teams.

If Willis isn't the starter and comes off the bench as the third safety in a hybrid LB role, ok.  But the starters need to be Blackmon and somebody better than Blackmon, IMO.

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8 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Here is the starting defensive lineup for that 2013 year.:

 

Mathis, Redding, Aubra Franklin, Ricky Jean Francois, Erik Walden

 

Pat Angerer, Jarrell Freeman (forgot about him), 

 

Vontae, Toler, Landry, Bethea.

 

That was a pretty good defense, IMO.  Maybe I was overrating Landry's contribution.

 

Grigson could not sustain what he built though.

That was a top 10 defense for the year.  Ranked #9 in yards and PPG. We all thought it was the start to something special. 

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13 minutes ago, AwesomeAustin said:

That was a top 10 defense for the year.  Ranked #9 in yards and PPG. We all thought it was the start to something special. 

And then Redding and Franklin got old, Toler got hurt, Landry busted, I think Freeman wanted a big contract etc.  Couldn't be sustained.

 

I remember the forum always bashing RJF because he wasn't getting sacks nor was he really a fatty run stopper, and mainly because of his contract that was like $5M per?   What would that be today $10M per?   Was RJF a worse player than Grover, who's making about $9M per?

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12 minutes ago, AwesomeAustin said:

That was a top 10 defense for the year.  Ranked #9 in yards and PPG. We all thought it was the start to something special. 

 

That is why I felt Grigson's DL that he put together was a good one initially but he could not sustain replacements because....he did not draft the replacements well and have them ready to replace them. That is the inevitable cycle a GM faces. That is why GMs like Polian and Ballard fall back to the draft more. I do think Ballard plays FA more than Polian, but definitely less than Grigson.

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3 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

That is why I felt Grigson's DL that he put together was a good one initially but he could not sustain replacements because....he did not draft the replacements well and have them ready to replace them. That is the inevitable cycle a GM faces. That is why GMs like Polian and Ballard fall back to the draft more. I do think Ballard plays FA more than Polian, but definitely less than Grigson.

Yeah.  He tried to replace Mathis with Werner as a 1st round pick, at least understood positional value.  Didn't Grigs sign another DT that was supposed to be good but busted.  I know that Ballard had Hankins and Polian had that Cory dude.

 

Yeah, the guy from BALT that Pagano coached.  He was thought be good...everybody cheered...then it went nowhere.

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2 hours ago, shakedownstreet said:

 

CAGEMATCH! Tonight at 8 on FOX

Ballard wins the better GM, but Grigson takes the cage match. He is huge, former Olineman in an era where it was rough. Listening to former players accounts of him he was mean.

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25 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yeah.  He tried to replace Mathis with Werner as a 1st round pick, at least understood positional value.  Didn't Grigs sign another DT that was supposed to be good but busted.  I know that Ballard had Hankins and Polian had that Cory dude.

 

Yeah, the guy from BALT that Pagano coached.  He was thought be good...everybody cheered...then it went nowhere.

 

His name is Arthur Jones. Yeah, he had enough money given to him and it backfired too. 

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41 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yeah.  He tried to replace Mathis with Werner as a 1st round pick, at least understood positional value.  Didn't Grigs sign another DT that was supposed to be good but busted.  I know that Ballard had Hankins and Polian had that Cory dude.

 

Yeah, the guy from BALT that Pagano coached.  He was thought be good...everybody cheered...then it went nowhere.

Art Jones.  

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9 minutes ago, Mitch Connors said:

Do you think Luck being on the roster changed any of Ballard's drafts?

Lets not act like Ballard didn't benefit massively from Luck too.

 

Ballard basically had Luck for 1 good year in 2018 and we saw the results - 2017 when Ballard got hired, and 2019 were with JB, how is it massively benefiting from Luck? An increased amount of talent added would have made us at least a surefire division winner now with Luck, IMO. 

 

An elite QB can elevate the pass catchers. Case in point - Rivers with our pass catchers in same system versus Wentz. Hence the first 2 years, no WRs were drafted in 2017 and 2018 because a) Pagano was lame duck in 2017 and it ended up being a wasted draft, IMO and b) 2018 - we had to build our trenches and front seven which is what Ballard focused on. We got Dontrelle Inman that helped in 2018 but then we got Campbell in 2019 and Pittman in 2020 in the 2nd round in back to back drafts.

 

But whiffing on pass rushers has had a ripple effect on precious draft picks not being used on skill positions again now that we know Luck or Rivers is not walking through that door. That has been the BIGGEST issue with Ballard for me.

 

 

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I’m definitely losing some faith in Ballard but I would never want grigson back .   He just drafted  way to many high round busts.  Dorsett fleener, Allen , Werner , dejon smith , mewhort, .   His rounds 1 to 4 he failed pretty bad .   I will give him credit for free agency and some trades .  Getting vontae Davis , freeman was a beast , mike Adams , Jackson Eric Walden .  It just wasn’t enough though the roster is better now .   Grigsons teams over achieved while Ballards teams under achieve . Ballards teams are still better but he still needs to put more of a priority on weapons for the offense . He also failed in Keeping veterans in key spots to train the young guys . Letting autry walk was his biggest failure besides drafting Campbell over better options.

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1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Here is the starting defensive lineup for that 2013 year.:

 

Mathis, Redding, Aubra Franklin, Ricky Jean Francois, Erik Walden

 

Pat Angerer, Jarrell Freeman (forgot about him), 

 

Vontae, Toler, Landry, Bethea.

 

That was a pretty good defense, IMO.  Maybe I was overrating Landry's contribution.

 

Grigson could not sustain what he built though.

Wasn’t Landry suspended for several games In 2013 too?

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6 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Ballard basically had Luck for 1 good year in 2018 and we saw the results - 2017 when Ballard got hired, and 2019 were with JB, how is it massively benefiting from Luck? An increased amount of talent added would have made us at least a surefire division winner now with Luck, IMO. 

 

An elite QB can elevate the pass catchers. Case in point - Rivers with our pass catchers in same system versus Wentz. Hence the first 2 years, no WRs were drafted in 2017 and 2018 because a) Pagano was lame duck in 2017 and it ended up being a wasted draft, IMO and b) 2018 - we had to build our trenches and front seven which is what Ballard focused on. We got Dontrelle Inman that helped in 2018 but then we got Campbell in 2019 and Pittman in 2020 in the 2nd round in back to back drafts.

 

But whiffing on pass rushers has had a ripple effect on precious draft picks not being used on skill positions again now that we know Luck or Rivers is not walking through that door. That has been the BIGGEST issue with Ballard for me.

 

 

I’m confident that Paye and Dayo will change the bolded part for you

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5 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Wasn’t Landry suspended for several games In 2013 too?

IDK.  I thought that he came in and played well the season after the contract signing, then things went all wrong the next season.  Sergio Brown cam in and played decently I guess during Landry's absences.

 

Ancient history now.   But those were some fun times to be a Colt fan.

 

Funny thing, since Ballard has gotten here, I've never felt like we would win the AFC South at the beginning of any season.  The competition being different for one thing.

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14 minutes ago, DougDew said:

IDK.  I thought that he came in and played well the season after the contract signing, then things went all wrong the next season.  Sergio Brown cam in and played decently I guess during Landry's absences.

 

Ancient history now.   But those were some fun times to be a Colt fan.

 

Funny thing, since Ballard has gotten here, I've never felt like we would win the AFC South at the beginning of any season.  The competition being different for one thing.

 

If we were building a roster for the 1990s with old school running with a great RB, OL and a few good WRs and TEs, Ballard roster might work good but even then we will fall short on the difference maker front with not enough playmakers on the pass catching and secondary department.

 

Ultimately, there are only so many draft picks to go with, so FA supplementation with short windows in the current NFL is almost a must, IMO. Plus, I would have to believe having a very good QB, OL and skill positions is more likely to cover more flaws than having a very good OL and RB, which is where we are. Our flaws are harder to cover, Polian's roster flaws were easier to cover.

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42 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

If we were building a roster for the 1990s with old school running with a great RB, OL and a few good WRs and TEs, Ballard roster might work good but even then we will fall short on the difference maker front with not enough playmakers on the pass catching and secondary department.

 

Ultimately, there are only so many draft picks to go with, so FA supplementation with short windows in the current NFL is almost a must, IMO. Plus, I would have to believe having a very good QB, OL and skill positions is more likely to cover more flaws than having a very good OL and RB, which is where we are. Our flaws are harder to cover, Polian's roster flaws were easier to cover.

Like I said, we are the Chiefs before they got Mahomes

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4 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Or that haha . Either way, we need a different QB or for Wentz to suddenly become what he’s not. 

 

Our identity on offense and system on defense both fit the Seahawks model when Lynch was there, that is what I am basing it on.

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