Depth at LBer concern

[EastStreet]

25 minutes ago, Shafty138 said:

Leonard can cover.... Even simply looking at takeaways.... Walker didn't suck at coverage statistically?  That was probably because it's hard to contest a catch if the guy running the route blew you off the LOS....lol

Like I clearly said, I'm not saying Walker was good. What I am saying is that his stats for the most part are better than Oke's. 

[CR91]

5 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 You have to NOT Believe in getting better, and try as i might i can't get the Bracket comparison. Bracket became pretty decent against the run but his height/length was a weakness dropping in coverage.
 Oke seems the opposite. As of today.
 Some think he has a brain and that experience should benefit him in all areas of his game. This should be a really good learning year for him.

 

Getting better? He outsnapped Walker and wasn't exactly overly impressive. Imo, he is not starting material.

[CR91]

37 minutes ago, Shafty138 said:

I count drafting Okereke as replacing Walker.... That's what most knew the eventual situation to be from the moment the pick was turned in.  In the time between then and now, having Oke as a backup was a luxury.... We play primarily 2 LBers anyway, speed/Franklin/Moore/etc is fine.

 

Hence why I said their basically handing him the job.

[CR91]

8 hours ago, Smonroe said:

I don’t think a decision can be made until the preseason when we all see if Eason can play.  There are guys out there like Barkley, who can get you through a game or two in a pinch.  From what I read the Bears will probably keep Foles simply because his contract makes it easy for them

 

But my point was that it’s interesting that most of of aren’t really concerned about the backup QB even though it’s the position that we have least experience.  

 

I'm fine with Eason as the backup. Imo, unless he has like the worst preseason ever and is just completely lost and a turnover machine, he will be QB2

[Smonroe]

32 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

I'm fine with Eason as the backup. Imo, unless he has like the worst preseason ever and is just completely lost and a turnover machine, he will be QB2

I trust Reich to make the Reich decision.  
 

You know what’s going to happen though.  Ehlinger and Morton will be running around making plays against future gym teachers and the fans will want them over Eason.   
 

I can almost guarantee that the same way I’ll guarantee right now that we’ll get complaints about losing the fourth quarter of a preseason game.  

[EastStreet]

16 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

I trust Reich to make the Reich decision.  
 

You know what’s going to happen though.  Ehlinger and Morton will be running around making plays against future gym teachers and the fans will want them over Eason.   
 

I can almost guarantee that the same way I’ll guarantee right now that we’ll get complaints about losing the fourth quarter of a preseason game.  

I could definitely see Ehlinger looking good against 3rd stringers. 

His measurables though are just so underwhelming. Great kid, but just doesn't have the ceiling that Eason has.

And I'm not saying at all that Eason will be good. Just that ceilings are very different. 

Sam might do well on goal line packages if they don't want to use Wentz running the ball.

[ProblChld32]

3 hours ago, EastStreet said:

You really think Okereke and Leonard are great coverage guys?

Do you watch tape? Yes they are both far better than Walker is.

[Smonroe]

13 minutes ago, ProblChld32 said:

Do you watch tape? Yes they are both far better than Walker is.

True.  Walker wasn’t as fast or athletic as either.  But he definitely is cerebral, and that can make up for a lot.  
 

I liked him and wish him well with the Brownies.  

[CR91]

1 hour ago, Smonroe said:

I trust Reich to make the Reich decision.  
 

You know what’s going to happen though.  Ehlinger and Morton will be running around making plays against future gym teachers and the fans will want them over Eason.   
 

I can almost guarantee that the same way I’ll guarantee right now that we’ll get complaints about losing the fourth quarter of a preseason game.  

 

I call it the Chad Kelly syndrome

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, ProblChld32 said:

Do you watch tape? Yes they are both far better than Walker is.

 

Yep, I watch tape.

Can you explain why Okereke has poorer stats in just about every category?

 

[shasta519]

18 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Just chuckling about some of the comments in this thread. Still trying to figure out where this perception that Leonard and Okereke are good at coverage, or that Walker is so awful. I freely admit Walker's coverage is sub par, but his numbers seem to be better than Oke's.... What's that say? Walker had the lowest completion %, lowest yards per target and completion, and lowest YAC average.

 

IDK... lol. Can someone explain away the simple numbers. Is this all "eye test", and "well, Ballard says" stuff.... 

 

Just some quick raw numbers

Blue - best

Red - worst

Note - not including Franklin due to sample size

 

 

Snaps
Leonard - 79.94%
Okereke - 66.38%
Walker - 67.54%
Franklin - 8.33%

 

Targets/Completions/%
Leonard - 70 / 57 / 81.4%
Okereke - 61 / 48 / 78.7%
Walker - 50 / 38 / 76%
Franklin - 2 / 2 / 100%
**Fred Warner - 62.3%
**Bobby Wagner - 64.2%
**Eric Kendric - 70.7%

 

Yards / YPComp / YPTarget
Leonard - 474 / 8.3 / 6.8
Okereke - 437 / 9.1 / 7.2
Walker - 287 / 7.6 / 5.7
Franklin - 28 / 14 / 14 

 

YAC / YPTarget / YPComp 
Leonard - 309 / 4.4 / 5.4
Okereke - 257 / 4.2 / 5.4
Walker - 158 / 2.7 / 4.1
Franklin - 13 / 6.5 /6.5

 

Blitzes / Pressures / Pressure %
Leonard - 45 / 8 / 18%
Okereke - 26 / 1 / 4%
Walker - 22 / 3 / 14%
Franklin - 1 / 1 / 100%

 

Tackles / Ts per snap
Leonard - 132 / 0.16
Okereke -72 / 0.11
Walker - 92 / 0.13
Franklin - 19 / .22

 

 

Good points. After last season, I am not really sure if Oke excels at anything. He is going to have to prove it. He did look faster than Walker, but he was mostly still an equally sub par player last year. 
 

I think the current perception of Oke likely comes from his draft profile and write-ups from the end of his solid rookie season.
 

But recently, I saw a couple of articles talking about how Oke was on his way to being a star LB. Maybe I watched a different team, but that definitely wasn’t the reality of last season. And I know people love to hate on PFF, but they loved Oke after his rookie season…and even that couldn’t keep them from giving him a bad grade.

 

And Leonard was really bad in coverage as well, which might become an issue after they give him the rumored “north of $19M+” contract. Nobody wants to hear it though.

 

Going forward, Colts could find themselves in a situation where their once strength on defense (LB group) is now a weakness because teams will exploit LBers who can’t cover.

 

I don’t think Ballard will let it go that far though, which is why this is a big season for Oke. If he has a similar performance as last season, I bet Ballard goes LB early.

 

But yeah, I don’t think it would hurt to grab a vet LBer if one is available.

[EastStreet]

18 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

Good points. After last season, I am not really sure if Oke excels at anything. He is going to have to prove it. He did look faster than Walker, but he was mostly still an equally sub par player last year. 

He's just different than Walker. Walker was a lot stronger, and a lot thicker. And a lot better vs the run, and especially in traffic against the run. Walker sheds much better too. Walker isn't good in coverage. Oke was good in one area two years ago, and wasn't really good in any one area last year.

18 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

I think the current perception of Oke likely comes from his draft profile and write-ups from the end of his solid rookie season.

He had a very good rookie year from a coverage perspective. IMO, the time share with Walker was a good thing. They took two guys who were deficient in different ways, and made one good position. 

 

He played inside in a 3-4, but was probably undersized for even college. His draft profile actually wasn't all that great. A lot of the talking heads thought he'd be better playing outside. But just about every profile/review thought he undersized for the middle, and struggled vs the run.

18 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

But recently, I saw a couple of articles talking about how Oke was on his way to being a star LB. Maybe I watched a different team, but that definitely wasn’t the reality of last season. And I know people love to hate on PFF, but they loved Oke after his rookie season…and even that couldn’t keep them from giving him a bad grade.

I read one or two of those. IIRC, they were fan-sites. But even the one I remember most, was honest that he took a huge step back last year.

 

Overall, folks that are adamant that Oke was good last year, are ignoring all stats and grading services. And IMO, they really didn't watch film either. And I know stats and grades don't always tell the entire story, but it's just intellectually dishonest to brush aside the overwhelming information out there. 

18 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

And Leonard was really bad in coverage as well, which might become an issue after they give him the rumored “north of $19M+” contract. Nobody wants to hear it though.

Yup, Leonard had a very down year in 2020 vs the pass. He's very very good in other areas, but it's hard to argue he was good vs the pass last year (except for all the "eye test" folks lol).

18 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

Going forward, Colts could find themselves in a situation where their once strength on defense (LB group) is now a weakness because teams will exploit LBers who can’t cover.

I'm very concerned about our D overall.  We can be exploited both in the LB space, and back end. Blackmon was pretty terrible in deep coverage. And who knows what is going to happen at CB2. Rhodes and Moore are both great, but aside from that, the other 3 all have some level of concern. And on top of that, replacing both starting DEs.... My biggest fear is that we're going to step back vs the run, which will have ripple effects on our D.

 

18 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

I don’t think Ballard will let it go that far though, which is why this is a big season for Oke. If he has a similar performance as last season, I bet Ballard goes LB early.

 

But yeah, I don’t think it would hurt to grab a vet LBer if one is available.

Pretty clear that Ballard is rolling the dice this year. GMs always have to roll the dice in some areas every year, and MIKE is one of those positions this year. 

 

I really thought Ballard might grab a LB this year in the mid rounds. I would have loved to grab JOK in the second. He went two spots before Dayo. I know DE and LT were bigger priorities though. I might have even gone with Bolton or Werner over Dayo in the 2nd. I think all 3 of those guys are going to do very very well. 

 

Next year is going to be interesting. My way2early thoughts are that CB and LB might be our two biggest needs. Maybe FS too. And we likely won't have a first lol...  I'm just really hoping Rhodes has a few more years left. It would be REALLY nice if Oke, RYS, and Blackmon all took big steps forward this year.

[Stephen]

11 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

He's just different than Walker. Walker was a lot stronger, and a lot thicker. And a lot better vs the run, and especially in traffic against the run. Walker sheds much better too. Walker isn't good in coverage. Oke was good in one area two years ago, and wasn't really good in any one area last year.

He had a very good rookie year from a coverage perspective. IMO, the time share with Walker was a good thing. They took two guys who were deficient in different ways, and made one good position. 

 

He played inside in a 3-4, but was probably undersized for even college. His draft profile actually wasn't all that great. A lot of the talking heads thought he'd be better playing outside. But just about every profile/review thought he undersized for the middle, and struggled vs the run.

I read one or two of those. IIRC, they were fan-sites. But even the one I remember most, was honest that he took a huge step back last year.

 

Overall, folks that are adamant that Oke was good last year, are ignoring all stats and grading services. And IMO, they really didn't watch film either. And I know stats and grades don't always tell the entire story, but it's just intellectually dishonest to brush aside the overwhelming information out there. 

Yup, Leonard had a very down year in 2020 vs the pass. He's very very good in other areas, but it's hard to argue he was good vs the pass last year (except for all the "eye test" folks lol).

I'm very concerned about our D overall.  We can be exploited both in the LB space, and back end. Blackmon was pretty terrible in deep coverage. And who knows what is going to happen at CB2. Rhodes and Moore are both great, but aside from that, the other 3 all have some level of concern. And on top of that, replacing both starting DEs.... My biggest fear is that we're going to step back vs the run, which will have ripple effects on our D.

 

Pretty clear that Ballard is rolling the dice this year. GMs always have to roll the dice in some areas every year, and MIKE is one of those positions this year. 

 

I really thought Ballard might grab a LB this year in the mid rounds. I would have loved to grab JOK in the second. He went two spots before Dayo. I know DE and LT were bigger priorities though. I might have even gone with Bolton or Werner over Dayo in the 2nd. I think all 3 of those guys are going to do very very well. 

 

Next year is going to be interesting. My way2early thoughts are that CB and LB might be our two biggest needs. Maybe FS too. And we likely won't have a first lol...  I'm just really hoping Rhodes has a few more years left. It would be REALLY nice if Oke, RYS, and Blackmon all took big steps forward this year.

Shawn Davis may be great on back end as well

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, Stephen said:

Shawn Davis may be great on back end as well

I could see Davis pushing either S position. He and Blackmon are actually pretty similar. I'd say Davis is probably better at coverage.

Davis will need to stay healthy though. He had elite flashes at FL at times, but was hit with the injury bug often. 

He even pulled a hammy at his pro day running the 40 lol... 

[throwing BBZ]

19 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

Getting better? He outsnapped Walker and wasn't exactly overly impressive. Imo, he is not starting material.

 

 Plain silly. Tell me after his 4th season how good he is. That is when he should be nearing his prime.

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Plain silly. Tell me after his 4th season how good he is. That is when he should be nearing his prime.

I think @CR91 's point was simply that since he took a step back last year from his rookie season, that's not getting better. 

 

He's not saying he can't, or won't do better this year, but it's pretty clear he went in the opposite direction last year.

[throwing BBZ]

On 7/24/2021 at 10:43 AM, EastStreet said:

 

IDK. Walker was playing mostly early downs vs the run. Their (Walker and Oke) passing grades (passer rating allowed, etc) were very similar. Oke's grades overall took a huge step back in year 2 (sub 50 PFF too). With Walker playing mostly run downs (and good at defending the run), and Oke playing mostly passing downs (and his grades weren't good), I just don't see that as an "answer". And Oke will be playing run downs now, which is one of the digs on him to begin with. Exit Walker yes, but enter big gamble. And keep in mind, when Leonard went down, it was Walker who they moved to WILL, not Oke, which says something.

 

RYS is a 4.51 guy. Not elite speed, but more than enough. We saw him play very very well the 2H of 2019. He had injuries last year, early, middle, and late season. So speed is not really a reason I'd rule him out on. I do wonder though if he'd be more of a natural fit in a man scheme.

 

I do think he'd make a good S, but not ready to abandon his potential at CB just yet.

 

 Stats interest me too.

But watching the game it looked obvious that our opponents were game planning to exploit Walkers inability to get to where he needed to be, particularly in the flats. He was a freebie whatever down he was playing. Deemed unacceptable by Eb and CB.

 So they move on with their plan to develop the next man up to play at the level required. Maybe he is on the roster now, time will tell. If not, it will be addressed as soon as the opportunity arises.

 Before last season i had high hopes for AW. That through experience and working on his body he might play even smarter and faster. Be worth the sizable new contract that Leonard and he were hoping for.

 Now he is seen best suited inside in a 3-4. Okay for him.

 

[CR91]

30 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Plain silly. Tell me after his 4th season how good he is. That is when he should be nearing his prime.

 

The way the colts talked him up even Irsay, his level of play didn't remotely fit the bill. Hell, he didn't even play run downs that often and he was still exposed in the passing game which is supposed to be his strength.

[shasta519]

25 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

The way the colts talked him up even Irsay, his level of play didn't remotely fit the bill. Hell, he didn't even play run downs that often and he was still exposed in the passing game which is supposed to be his strength.

Oke has really become an overhyped player for some reason. Perhaps part of it is to help justify letting a team leader walk to save $3M. But it was pretty clear that Walker was a liability on passing downs anyways.

[EastStreet]

5 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Stats interest me too.

But watching the game it looked obvious that our opponents were game planning to exploit Walkers inability to get to where he needed to be, particularly in the flats. He was a freebie whatever down he was playing. Deemed unacceptable by Eb and CB.

 So they move on with their plan to develop the next man up to play at the level required. Maybe he is on the roster now, time will tell. If not, it will be addressed as soon as the opportunity arises.

 Before last season i had high hopes for AW. That through experience and working on his body he might play even smarter and faster. Be worth the sizable new contract that Leonard and he were hoping for.

 Now he is seen best suited inside in a 3-4. Okay for him.

 

Walker was playing early downs, so it's more than likely he (and the rest of the LBs) were keying on runs. 

Overall, I thought they picked on Oke actually more than Walker. 

I also think scheme changes had a lot to do with all of our LBs (and some DBs) taking a step back.

 

It will be interesting to see how Walker grades out this year with TN. If I had to bet, I'd pick Walker to grade out slightly higher than Oke.

[NewColtsFan]

8 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Stats interest me too.

But watching the game it looked obvious that our opponents were game planning to exploit Walkers inability to get to where he needed to be, particularly in the flats. He was a freebie whatever down he was playing. Deemed unacceptable by Eb and CB.

 So they move on with their plan to develop the next man up to play at the level required. Maybe he is on the roster now, time will tell. If not, it will be addressed as soon as the opportunity arises.

 Before last season i had high hopes for AW. That through experience and working on his body he might play even smarter and faster. Be worth the sizable new contract that Leonard and he were hoping for.

 Now he is seen best suited inside in a 3-4. Okay for him.

 

As to your 3-4 reference….

 

Cleveland plays mostly, if not entirely a 4-3 defense.    Walker is slated to start for them. 

[Moosejawcolt]

On 7/24/2021 at 12:25 PM, EastStreet said:

Just chuckling about some of the comments in this thread. Still trying to figure out where this perception that Leonard and Okereke are good at coverage, or that Walker is so awful. I freely admit Walker's coverage is sub par, but his numbers seem to be better than Oke's.... What's that say? Walker had the lowest completion %, lowest yards per target and completion, and lowest YAC average.

 

IDK... lol. Can someone explain away the simple numbers. Is this all "eye test", and "well, Ballard says" stuff.... 

 

Just some quick raw numbers

Blue - best

Red - worst

Note - not including Franklin due to sample size

 

 

Snaps
Leonard - 79.94%
Okereke - 66.38%
Walker - 67.54%
Franklin - 8.33%

 

Targets/Completions/%
Leonard - 70 / 57 / 81.4%
Okereke - 61 / 48 / 78.7%
Walker - 50 / 38 / 76%
Franklin - 2 / 2 / 100%
**Fred Warner - 62.3%
**Bobby Wagner - 64.2%
**Eric Kendric - 70.7%

 

Yards / YPComp / YPTarget
Leonard - 474 / 8.3 / 6.8
Okereke - 437 / 9.1 / 7.2
Walker - 287 / 7.6 / 5.7
Franklin - 28 / 14 / 14 

 

YAC / YPTarget / YPComp 
Leonard - 309 / 4.4 / 5.4
Okereke - 257 / 4.2 / 5.4
Walker - 158 / 2.7 / 4.1
Franklin - 13 / 6.5 /6.5

 

Blitzes / Pressures / Pressure %
Leonard - 45 / 8 / 18%
Okereke - 26 / 1 / 4%
Walker - 22 / 3 / 14%
Franklin - 1 / 1 / 100%

 

Tackles / Ts per snap
Leonard - 132 / 0.16
Okereke -72 / 0.11
Walker - 92 / 0.13
Franklin - 19 / .22

 

 

U think Leonard is worth 19 million a year?

[Moosejawcolt]

4 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Walker was playing early downs, so it's more than likely he (and the rest of the LBs) were keying on runs. 

Overall, I thought they picked on Oke actually more than Walker. 

I also think scheme changes had a lot to do with all of our LBs (and some DBs) taking a step back.

 

It will be interesting to see how Walker grades out this year with TN. If I had to bet, I'd pick Walker to grade out slightly higher than Oke.

I really didn't think we missed much when Walker subbed for Leonard in a game  or two. 

[jvan1973]

2 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

U think Leonard is worth 19 million a year?

He will get it.    You're worth what someone is willing to pay you. 

[jvan1973]

On 7/24/2021 at 2:25 PM, EastStreet said:

Just chuckling about some of the comments in this thread. Still trying to figure out where this perception that Leonard and Okereke are good at coverage, or that Walker is so awful. I freely admit Walker's coverage is sub par, but his numbers seem to be better than Oke's.... What's that say? Walker had the lowest completion %, lowest yards per target and completion, and lowest YAC average.

 

IDK... lol. Can someone explain away the simple numbers. Is this all "eye test", and "well, Ballard says" stuff.... 

 

Just some quick raw numbers

Blue - best

Red - worst

Note - not including Franklin due to sample size

 

 

Snaps
Leonard - 79.94%
Okereke - 66.38%
Walker - 67.54%
Franklin - 8.33%

 

Targets/Completions/%
Leonard - 70 / 57 / 81.4%
Okereke - 61 / 48 / 78.7%
Walker - 50 / 38 / 76%
Franklin - 2 / 2 / 100%
**Fred Warner - 62.3%
**Bobby Wagner - 64.2%
**Eric Kendric - 70.7%

 

Yards / YPComp / YPTarget
Leonard - 474 / 8.3 / 6.8
Okereke - 437 / 9.1 / 7.2
Walker - 287 / 7.6 / 5.7
Franklin - 28 / 14 / 14 

 

YAC / YPTarget / YPComp 
Leonard - 309 / 4.4 / 5.4
Okereke - 257 / 4.2 / 5.4
Walker - 158 / 2.7 / 4.1
Franklin - 13 / 6.5 /6.5

 

Blitzes / Pressures / Pressure %
Leonard - 45 / 8 / 18%
Okereke - 26 / 1 / 4%
Walker - 22 / 3 / 14%
Franklin - 1 / 1 / 100%

 

Tackles / Ts per snap
Leonard - 132 / 0.16
Okereke -72 / 0.11
Walker - 92 / 0.13
Franklin - 19 / .22

 

 

Where are these stats from?    Did they sit and watch game film with coaches and ask who had what responsibilities?

[2006Coltsbestever]

18 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Where are these stats from?    Did they sit and watch game film with coaches and ask who had what responsibilities?

That is a great point. All players have different responsibilities. It is funny how some don't look at that aspect but are quick to say Leonard only has more tackles and sacks because he plays WILL and Warner is a MIKE. I think some in here just love to argue to be arguing  . If Warner was a Colt and Leonard was a 49er the same people would say Leonard is better and point to the stats I pointed too. Leonard not only has more tackles than Warner, he smokes him in that category, it isn't even close. He smokes him in forced fumbles too and INT's as well. I am not getting this whole conversation to be honest. 

[Valpo2004]

On 7/23/2021 at 4:08 PM, Smonroe said:

Kind of interesting that people are concerned about quality depth at LB, CB, DE, and LT.  But not a lot are concerned about quality depth at the most important position on the team.  
 

Ballard has to walk a fine line.  He either stays with Eason and takes a huge chance, or brings in an experienced backup and risks Wentz’s psyche. 
 

Sorry, I don’t mean to derail your thread. But IMHO, that’s the biggest area of depth concern on the team…by miles.  

 

I see a slight difference.  Easton was a 4th round draft pick which is a fairly high pick for a backup.

 

The LB depth that we have is also inexperienced but is mostly 6th and 7th rounders and UDFA's.  

 

Now that's not guarantee that he will be any good but if you are taking odds on NFL success a 4th round pick has a much better chance than a 6th, 7th, or UDFA.  

 

Also Easton was the 3rd string QB last year so my guess is they saw enough from him that they feel confident in him as the backup.  Plus we also drafted a QB just to make sure Easton doesn't grow too comfortable with the backup role.  

[krunk]

I just read another report that said internally the Colts feel Zaire Franklin can adequately replace Walker. So im assuming they will keep the rotation the way they had it. Just replace Walker with Franklin

[CurBeatElite]

On 7/23/2021 at 10:56 AM, CR91 said:

 

Well Bobby is basically the appointed starter. No one is challenging him for the spot which honestly I think is a mistake as I'm not overly impressed by his game. Sure hes good in coverage, but can't disengage and always gets caught in the trash. Reminds me honestly of a watered down version of Brackett

 

Oke is a lot more athletic than Brackett.  And how do you know nobody is challenging him?  My guess is EJ Speed is challenging him and so is every other guy not named Darius Leonard in the LB room.  

 

EJ Speed is a freak athlete from a smaller school.  The coaches and Ballard all said since day 1 it would take a couple years for him to develop into an NFL player and my guess is he'll finally get his chance to show what he's developed into on the field a bit this year.

 

On 7/23/2021 at 3:04 PM, EastStreet said:

 

Our front 7, really our front 6 since we play 4-2-5 most of the time, will have 2.5 new starters. The 0.5 being Okereke, who has struggled vs the run already. Then you're looking at Paye/Turay/Lewis in the other two new starter spots, which we really don't know how they'll do vs the run.

 

Outside of Buckner and Leonard, the whole "vs the run" situation is a wild card to me.

 

I think Rochell is going to do a nice job.  He reminds me a lot of Autry and I think he's capable of filling Autry's role without really skipping a beat.  

 

My main concern with Paye is that he's a rookie so he'll likely have a few mental lapses or times where inexperience hurts him.  Otherwise, I think he'll be solid.  Not concerned about Lewis vs. the run.  Turay against the run concerns me, but I tend to think we'll see Turay on the field almost exclusively for passing downs.

 

On 7/23/2021 at 5:33 PM, CR91 said:

 

Vet QBs imo are a wasted spot on the team. Look at Hoyer who couldn't even beat the dolphins. Look at what the Patriots have done with their backup QBs. Mallet, Cassell, Jimmy G, Hoyer. All got traded for compensation. I'd rather work on a project and potentially either have trade bait or a very good option if needed.

 

This is a silly post.  Look what happened when Peyton got hurt, we went from AFC South favorites (in many folks' eyes AFC and SB favorites) to 2-14 without a competent backup.  Irsay said then that he was going to make sure we always have a competent backup.  Fast forward a few years and when we just barely missed the playoffs when we had Hasselbeck as a starter.  

 

Obviously it's not ideal to lose a starting QB for a large chunk of time.  It is rare for a team to overcome that, though it's happened - like the time Brady took over for Bledsoe in week 2 of the 2001 season, or the time Nick Foles took over for MVP candidate Carson Wentz and led the Eagles to the SB (as @NewColtsFanalluded to with a decent list of other solid vet backup QBs).  That said, making the playoffs in the NFL is a tough thing to do (e.g., even with an 11-5 record last year, the Colts barely got in with a wildcard spot and aside from squeaking in with that record, we had 7 regular season games and a post-season game which were decided by one score or less).  Having a backup QB who can step in for a game, a portion of a game (yes even if only a single series) is very important.  

 

The value of a vet QB is he typically has experience and poise to handle adverse situations (e.g., subbing in on the fly in the 4th quarter of a tied game).  I believe Reich and Ballard trust that Eason will be OK to handle situations if he gets thrown in there (and given the fact that a fully healthy season for Wentz has only happened 2x in his 5 years I think they should almost be assuming the backup will be needed at some point).  Much to his benefit, Eason got to sit behind Rivers (a future HOF QB who excels at a lot of the things Eason got knocked on, e.g., reading defenses) and Brissett (a solid leader) as a rookie.  

[EastStreet]

14 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

U think Leonard is worth 19 million a year?

Perhaps a bit much, but it's the market, and we're not letting him walk.

[EastStreet]

14 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I really didn't think we missed much when Walker subbed for Leonard in a game  or two. 

He actually played very well vs Cleveland. Had a low completion % allowed, a TFL, and an INT.

The Bengals game was not a good.

I think the key thing here is they asked Walker to play WILL, and not Oke. That says something.

 

@NewColtsFan @2006Coltsbestever @jvan1973 - you laugh, but his stats vs Cleveland, one of the better Os, were very good.

[throwing BBZ]

12 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That is a great point. All players have different responsibilities. It is funny how some don't look at that aspect but are quick to say Leonard only has more tackles and sacks because he plays WILL and Warner is a MIKE. I think some in here just love to argue to be arguing  . If Warner was a Colt and Leonard was a 49er the same people would say Leonard is better and point to the stats I pointed too. Leonard not only has more tackles than Warner, he smokes him in that category, it isn't even close. He smokes him in forced fumbles too and INT's as well. I am not getting this whole conversation to be honest. 

 

 I remember the game where Leonard had i think 19 tackles.
 And they completed something like 15 out of 16 in his zone.
  They throw his way a lot in our 4-2, with much success.

[NewColtsFan]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

He actually played very well vs Cleveland. Had a low completion % allowed, a TFL, and an INT.

The Bengals game was not a good.

I think the key thing here is they asked Walker to play WILL, and not Oke. That says something.

 

@NewColtsFan @2006Coltsbestever @jvan1973 - you laugh, but his stats vs Cleveland, one of the better Os, were very good.

 

Having a nice grade, isn't the same as being Darius Leonard.    And you should know that.

 

[EastStreet]

12 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Where are these stats from?    Did they sit and watch game film with coaches and ask who had what responsibilities?

LOL.... sure, OK. Let's just ignore just about every key stat out there. Stats don't always paint the whole story, but there's a "preponderance" of data here. 

 

If you want to blindly stump for Okereke, that's fine. But you're going against just about every stat, and about every grading service. And there's simply no denying Leonard had a down year. And nobody is saying Walker is great. Just that his stats happen to be better than Oke's in most areas.

 

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, CurBeatElite said:

I think Rochell is going to do a nice job.  He reminds me a lot of Autry and I think he's capable of filling Autry's role without really skipping a beat.  

I think our scheme is better suited for Rochell. not sure if he'll do as well as Autry did, but I wouldn't be shocked either. LA's scheme was pretty funky, and Rochell might find his niche here. Even if he doesn't get starter minutes, I think he'll be quality depth in that tweener spot. If he can play 3T on passing downs, that might allow us to keep Lewis at DE, or even vice versa. 

1 hour ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

My main concern with Paye is that he's a rookie so he'll likely have a few mental lapses or times where inexperience hurts him.  Otherwise, I think he'll be solid.  Not concerned about Lewis vs. the run.  Turay against the run concerns me, but I tend to think we'll see Turay on the field almost exclusively for passing downs.

Paye is a complete wildcard to me right now. Great motor, but lacked stats. Typically it takes a DE a year or two to really come on. We shall see. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Turay turned out to be good vs the run based on his college film, and his draft profiles. Given his health history, that alone might keep him off the field early downs.

[EastStreet]

9 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Having a nice grade, isn't the same as being Darius Leonard.    And you should know that.

 

I'm looking at his stats, not his grades. Fact is, he performed very very well vs Cleveland. Not sure that can be argued. 

[Smonroe]

40 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I think our scheme is better suited for Rochell. not sure if he'll do as well as Autry did, but I wouldn't be shocked either. LA's scheme was pretty funky, and Rochell might find his niche here. Even if he doesn't get starter minutes, I think he'll be quality depth in that tweener spot. If he can play 3T on passing downs, that might allow us to keep Lewis at DE, or even vice versa. 

Paye is a complete wildcard to me right now. Great motor, but lacked stats. Typically it takes a DE a year or two to really come on. We shall see. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Turay turned out to be good vs the run based on his college film, and his draft profiles. Given his health history, that alone might keep him off the field early downs.

 

The D Line was outstanding against the run.  Kind of poor against the pass.  We lost our two best rushers and face a tougher schedule.

 

If Turay doesn't show up, we could be in trouble.  We're counting on Lewis to replace Autry, which I think he can.  But, as you said, we don't know what we have in Paye yet.  It sure would be nice if the light came on for BB.

 

All that said, I think the overall depth of the line is potentially better than last year, assuming Dayo eventually plays.

 

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, Smonroe said:

 

The D Line was outstanding against the run.  Kind of poor against the pass.  We lost our two best rushers and face a tougher schedule.

We were top 10ish in sack %. That's pretty good for being near league low in blitz %.

1 hour ago, Smonroe said:

 

If Turay doesn't show up, we could be in trouble.  We're counting on Lewis to replace Autry, which I think he can.  But, as you said, we don't know what we have in Paye yet.  It sure would be nice if the light came on for BB.

 

All that said, I think the overall depth of the line is potentially better than last year, assuming Dayo eventually plays.

 

Not sure I'd say the depth is better. You basically got rid of two starters, and added a rook. Dayo won't produce much this year IMO. Rochell, the only other add, is a wildcard. I like his chances though. I'm not counting on BB at all. Anything we get from him is a bonus.

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I'm looking at his stats, not his grades. Fact is, he performed very very well vs Cleveland. Not sure that can be argued. 

 

I'm trying not to turn one game into more than it is.

 

Fact is....   we let Walker walk out the door without so much as a counter-off.     At the same time,  we're trying to sign Leonard to one of the largest contracts any LB has ever received.     The two players are not comparable.

 

I'm trying to say it's just one game.   Nothing more.    It's not proof of anything more than just one game.

 

[Smonroe]

8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

We were top 10ish in sack %. That's pretty good for being near league low in blitz %.

Not sure I'd say the depth is better. You basically got rid of two starters, and added a rook. Dayo won't produce much this year IMO. Rochell, the only other add, is a wildcard. I like his chances though. I'm not counting on BB at all. Anything we get from him is a bonus.

 

You're correct.  We were in the top third for sacks and PPG.  Stats can be misleading sometimes and don't represent what we actually see.  Like game one where the mustache looked as good as Drew Brees.  I know, week 1 was weird.  Add to it we played a pretty weak schedule.

 

They're also normalized and often don't represent what a team really is by the middle/end of the season.  (Steelers led the league in sacks.  Yet the Browns destroyed them in the playoffs, and Baker wasn't touched)

 

The eye test showed me that we were letting most QBs take a lot of time in the pocket.

 

As far as D Line depth, you're also correct.  The ceiling isn't real high, but the floor is pretty good.  There are going to be a couple guys who will get cut that can make other teams.

 

I know we have no shot at getting Jones.  I wonder if we'll see Houston again.