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Report: Darius Leonard contract is up next


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20 hours ago, stitches said:

Eeek... that's not good. For the Colts. For Leonard this is great and I will be happy for him when he gets the bag because he's worked hard for it and deserves to get paid. We couldn't really have asked much more from him over those 3 years. 

 

I am still not sure it's wise roster construction decision to do it... but... I guess... it's better to pony up for great players than for meh players and Leonard has been great so far. 

Not going to be popular, but if he gets this kind of money there may be buyers remorse. Many times players don’t play up to these huge contracts. Not sure if that position is one to pay so much given cap restrictions.

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59 minutes ago, Blueblood23 said:

Not going to be popular, but if he gets this kind of money there may be buyers remorse. Many times players don’t play up to these huge contracts. Not sure if that position is one to pay so much given cap restrictions.

I don’t really care about what position players play when paying them. A difference maker is a difference maker.

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Leonard, being a leader on this team, also plays a factor.  The Colts would take a huge PR hit and team moral/chemistry hit if they let him walk.  That is just besides the production that would be lost.    I've never had any doubts that Leonard would be signed.   He'll get lots of $$ but I think he will want to prove he was worth it.  I think his best seasons are yet to come.

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https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/fred-warner-25169/

 

There's a lot going on with Warner's contract, but for practical purposes, it works out to him being under contract for six years, at $98m. His average cap hit is ~$16.5m.

 

It's backloaded, with rolling guarantees. The first two years, his cap hits are $3.6m and $8.1m. In Year 3, his cap hit jumps to $18.5m, and the average cap hit over the last four years is $21.8m. 

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22 hours ago, Myles said:

Leonard would have some data in his pocket to back up the want for more than Warner.  

They've both played 3 seasons.

Total tackles:

Leonard - 416

Warner - 367

 

Sacks:

Leonard - 15

Warner - 4

 

INT's:

Leonard - 7

Warner - 3

 

Forced Fumbles:

Leonard - 9

Warner - 5

 

QB hits:

Leonard - 17

Warner - 14

 

Tackles for loss:

Leonard - 26

Warner - 15

 

 

see below

22 hours ago, Wentzszn said:

Leonard’s stats are better then Warner’s so expect him to get a little more. Warner is a couple years younger then Leonard. I Always forget Leonard is kind of old for only being in the league 3 years.

 

Just FYI. Warner is a MIKE, and Leonard is a WILL. Different positions/responsibilities, so some differences in stats should be expected.

 

Even with that said,,,, And looking at the last 2 years, their tackle #s are very similar.

Warner's coverage grades are much much better than Leonard's. 

 

If you like PFF, they have Warner at #2.

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1 hour ago, Superman said:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/fred-warner-25169/

 

There's a lot going on with Warner's contract, but for practical purposes, it works out to him being under contract for six years, at $98m. His average cap hit is ~$16.5m.

 

It's backloaded, with rolling guarantees. The first two years, his cap hits are $3.6m and $8.1m. In Year 3, his cap hit jumps to $18.5m, and the average cap hit over the last four years is $21.8m. 

 

He gets $27 of his $40 mil. guaranteed upon signing. So, if his play declined, those last 3 or 4 years may not materialize on Warner's side. I think the 49ers have themselves somewhat covered. 

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48 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

He gets $27 of his $40 mil. guaranteed upon signing. So, if his play declined, those last 3 or 4 years may not materialize on Warner's side. I think the 49ers have themselves somewhat covered. 

 

There's a second option bonus and a void clause, which I don't fully understand, but it seems like they have to pay him $3.6m in 2024 to opt in to the final two years in 2025 and 2026. Which is not a huge deal, but it does push their real decision point back to 2025. That means he's basically locked in for four years, about $65m.

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2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

see below

 

Just FYI. Warner is a MIKE, and Leonard is a WILL. Different positions/responsibilities, so some differences in stats should be expected.

 

Even with that said,,,, And looking at the last 2 years, their tackle #s are very similar.

Warner's coverage grades are much much better than Leonard's. 

 

If you like PFF, they have Warner at #2.

Don’t think people realize that when Fred was matching up with Kelce, he was blanketing him majority of times 

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19 hours ago, runthepost said:

Don’t think people realize that when Fred was matching up with Kelce, he was blanketing him majority of times 

PFF's write up on him talked about him being a new breed of coverage LB. To have that at MIKE is pretty potent. In college, he played as a hybrid, and was lethal. And he's very young, so only going to get better. I think he could easily play MIKE or WILL. I also think he'll push for that #1 spot.

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On 7/21/2021 at 8:11 PM, Valpo2004 said:

Talent wise is Fred Warner a comparable player to Leonard?  

 

It looks to me like he had a great season last season and was named a first team all pro.

 

Leonard in 3 years was named first team all pro twice and second team all pro once.  Plus he was DROY and lead the team in tackles in 2018.

 

So it sounds to me like Leonard might demand more money than 19 mil

 

Leonard is better than Warner at a number of things but Warner is considerably better than Leonard in coverage, which is the most valuable skill set for an off-ball linebacker because it's so rare.

 

I would say that Leonard is the better all round player but Warner is enough better in coverage to be in the same tier as Leonard.

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On 7/23/2021 at 3:57 PM, Mackrel829 said:

 

Leonard is better than Warner at a number of things but Warner is considerably better than Leonard in coverage, which is the most valuable skill set for an off-ball linebacker because it's so rare.

 

I would say that Leonard is the better all round player but Warner is enough better in coverage to be in the same tier as Leonard.

In today’s NFL, you gotta have LBs who cAn cover.

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36 minutes ago, Nickster said:

In today’s NFL, you gotta have LBs who cAn cover.

 

I will say that there are tons of stats that can make an argument for or against how good someone is in coverage. Tight window stats. Pass rating against. Etc Etc.

 

That said, this PFF article did a decent job laying out how solid Leonard, Warner and Roquon Smith are and did so before extension numbers came in.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-young-defensive-players-who-deserve-early-extensions-darius-leonard-jaire-alexander-bradley-chubb-and-more

 

They predicted Darius to be the most expensive (5 yrs, $80M) with Smith and Warner right behind (5 years, $74M and 5 yrs $75M).

 

They also expected Warner to net $40M guaranteed compared to $47.5M for Leonard.

 

So even with coverage numbers and prowess included, the expectations was roughly $1M a year more for Leonard than Warner. Warner did better than anticipated. Leonard is likely going to come in above him. It is just the going rate.

 

That said, when you look at the charts here you see Leonard was still a 75th to 80th percentage LB in coverage and has steadily been in that range the last year and a half.

 

Smith and Warner are more on their upward swing and could be a little riskier in terms of paying for a year they may not reach again. 

 

Before 2020 Darius and Warner were similar. Last year Warner and Leonard started the year similarly around that 75th mark and then Darius staid there and Warner jumped towards the 90th percentile.

 

All I am saying is that the narrative that Leonard can't cover is not really totally true. He is above average. Warner had an elite year and before that was similarly above average.

 

I'd be fine paying Leonard the going rate. He makes some clutch key plays and is the heart of that D. If you do not pay a guy like him after all he has done for you then what message are you sending? He and Q are exactly the type of players you pay with that culture the locker-room has built.

 

Kinda hard to say "we aren't going to play at the top of the FA market since we want to draft and develop our own and reward our own" and then not reward the most deserving guys lol

 

 

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I don’t really know how the money situation works, and I believe we’ll keep Leonard, but my only question is how many of our “own” can we afford to keep at any given time?  Sorry if this is a dumb question; I’m just curious to everyone’s response.

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3 minutes ago, compuls1v3 said:

I don’t really know how the money situation works, and I believe we’ll keep Leonard, but my only question is how many of our “own” can we afford to keep at any given time?  Sorry if this is a dumb question; I’m just curious to everyone’s response.

In articles that I’ve read about the salary cap and how teams manage their money this appears to be the rough outline….
 

That your top 12-13 players are going to get the bulk of your money, and the other roughly 40 players are going to be paid far less.  
 

How much that translates to might be different for every team.   The cut-off point might be $4-6 mill fir top players for any given team?    Perhaps a little more or less?    I recently counted the number of players who make about $1mill per year per team.   I did roughly 8-10 teams and it was about 30-34 players making a million of more.   
 

I don’t know if I answered many of your questions?   Hope so….

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5 hours ago, TomDiggs said:

 

I will say that there are tons of stats that can make an argument for or against how good someone is in coverage. Tight window stats. Pass rating against. Etc Etc.

 

That said, this PFF article did a decent job laying out how solid Leonard, Warner and Roquon Smith are and did so before extension numbers came in.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-young-defensive-players-who-deserve-early-extensions-darius-leonard-jaire-alexander-bradley-chubb-and-more

 

They predicted Darius to be the most expensive (5 yrs, $80M) with Smith and Warner right behind (5 years, $74M and 5 yrs $75M).

 

They also expected Warner to net $40M guaranteed compared to $47.5M for Leonard.

 

So even with coverage numbers and prowess included, the expectations was roughly $1M a year more for Leonard than Warner. Warner did better than anticipated. Leonard is likely going to come in above him. It is just the going rate.

 

That said, when you look at the charts here you see Leonard was still a 75th to 80th percentage LB in coverage and has steadily been in that range the last year and a half.

 

Smith and Warner are more on their upward swing and could be a little riskier in terms of paying for a year they may not reach again. 

 

Before 2020 Darius and Warner were similar. Last year Warner and Leonard started the year similarly around that 75th mark and then Darius staid there and Warner jumped towards the 90th percentile.

 

All I am saying is that the narrative that Leonard can't cover is not really totally true. He is above average. Warner had an elite year and before that was similarly above average.

 

I'd be fine paying Leonard the going rate. He makes some clutch key plays and is the heart of that D. If you do not pay a guy like him after all he has done for you then what message are you sending? He and Q are exactly the type of players you pay with that culture the locker-room has built.

 

Kinda hard to say "we aren't going to play at the top of the FA market since we want to draft and develop our own and reward our own" and then not reward the most deserving guys lol

 

 

Leonard’s early coverage numbers were bolstered by several interceptions. He’s been what he’s been.  Sure above average, a little maybe, but we aren’t talking that kind of money.  Much of Leonard’s value is that he bites up on so many things that he makes some spectacular, game changing  plays with some regularity.  
 

I really have never watched Fred Warner play before, but I’ve seen many LBs cover as well as DL.  I hope he gets better at it.  We need him to be great at it if we are paying great player proportion of the scarce resources allotted NFL  teams.

 

I’m guessing the entire D will look bad for a while.  I think the Dline got worse in the short term.  I think it will show immediately.  If not, that would mean Turay is play8ng at a high level and getting to the Qb.

 

I expect panic mode early.  Then we will really see what CB has built towards the later part of the season. We will have fewer picks.  It will be up to the talent on the field.  I think this team might be good but I could also see it being in perpetual mediocrity if we have too many resources in a defensive guys who don’t really help the coverage situation, the clubs Achilles heel.

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On 7/23/2021 at 11:54 AM, EastStreet said:

PFF's write up on him talked about him being a new breed of coverage LB. To have that at MIKE is pretty potent. In college, he played as a hybrid, and was lethal. And he's very young, so only going to get better. I think he could easily play MIKE or WILL. I also think he'll push for that #1 spot.

i love leonard but i walk take warner over him just for the coverage .   we only rush 4 and barely blitz plus we got killed in coverage last year in the middle of the field with walker getting destroyed and leonard struggling a bit also

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This criticism of Leonard is a little over the top. His 1st 2 years in the league his pass coverage was good and everything else he does = tackling, making game changing plays, and his leadership are great. He had 1 off year pass coverage wise. Someone being critical of Leonard is like someone being critical of Giannis because he can't shoot 3's well lmao . Leonard is our 2nd best defensive player and the leader of the D, he deserves whatever money he gets. People complain we have a lack of playmaker's on this team, Leonard is a playmaker. He made 1st team all-pro last season, not bad for someone who supposedly can't cover?? He was 1st team all-pro in 2018 as well, in 2019 he was 2nd team all-pro.

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19 hours ago, TomDiggs said:

I'd be fine paying Leonard the going rate. He makes some clutch key plays and is the heart of that D. If you do not pay a guy like him after all he has done for you then what message are you sending? He and Q are exactly the type of players you pay with that culture the locker-room has built.

 

Kinda hard to say "we aren't going to play at the top of the FA market since we want to draft and develop our own and reward our own" and then not reward the most deserving guys lol

Exactly. Fans astound me at times. 

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1 hour ago, coming on strong said:

i love leonard but i walk take warner over him just for the coverage .   we only rush 4 and barely blitz plus we got killed in coverage last year in the middle of the field with walker getting destroyed and leonard struggling a bit also

Be happy we have Leonard, I would take either but the argument to who's better- Warner vs Leonard is moot anyone, they play 2 different positions. I could make the argument that Leonard does everything else better than Warner, stats back that up. He has more tackles, Sacks, and forced fumbles in the same amount of years played. Then someone will say, Leonard plays Will and Warner plays MIKE is why. So what is the point of debating it. A realistic debate is comparing 2 players that play the same position like Brady vs Manning back in the day. If I am not mistaken Leonard has more INT's than Warner 7-3, how's that happen if Warner is so much better in coverage? Leonard did have an off year last season regarding pass coverage but it was 1 year, it happens.

 

Regarding age, Leonard turns 26 in 2 days, Warner turns 25 in November, not much difference there either. Leonard is roughly only 1 yr older. Leonard has at least 5 great years left if injury doesn't occur.

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20 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

In articles that I’ve read about the salary cap and how teams manage their money this appears to be the rough outline….
 

That your top 12-13 players are going to get the bulk of your money, and the other roughly 40 players are going to be paid far less.  
 

How much that translates to might be different for every team.   The cut-off point might be $4-6 mill fir top players for any given team?    Perhaps a little more or less?    I recently counted the number of players who make about $1mill per year per team.   I did roughly 8-10 teams and it was about 30-34 players making a million of more.   
 

I don’t know if I answered many of your questions?   Hope so….

Thank you so much NewColtsFan, this is what I was looking for!!!

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2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Be happy we have Leonard, I would take either but the argument to who's better- Warner vs Leonard is moot anyone, they play 2 different positions. I could make the argument that Leonard does everything else better than Warner, stats back that up. He has more tackles, Sacks, and forced fumbles in the same amount of years played. Then someone will say, Leonard plays Will and Warner plays MIKE is why. So what is the point of debating it. A realistic debate is comparing 2 players that play the same position like Brady vs Manning back in the day. If I am not mistaken Leonard has more INT's than Warner 7-3, how's that happen if Warner is so much better in coverage? Leonard did have an off year last season regarding pass coverage but it was 1 year, it happens.

 

Regarding age, Leonard turns 26 in 2 days, Warner turns 25 in November, not much difference there either. Leonard is roughly only 1 yr older. Leonard has at least 5 great years left if injury doesn't occur.

I don’t know if career ints are the worst way to judge coverage skills but it’s certainly a bad way.

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9 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I don’t know if career ints are the worst way to judge coverage skills but it’s certainly a bad way.

7-3 is a pretty wide margin, Warner is the one that should have 7. It might not be the best way to judge a player pass coverage wise but one would think INT's are important. Creating turnovers is a big reason why teams win. You are nitpicking 1 thing that Leonard wasn't great at last year, that is pass coverage. Several are doing it. I can nitpick any player in the league in reality regarding 1 area. Deion Sanders was an average tackler at best for example (some thought he even tried to avoid tackling as much as possible) but everyone would take him on their 1st team all-time team. At least 95% of people would. I just think this bashing of Leonard is insane, JMO. There are people in here that even say Nelson doesn't deserve the contract he is going to get. That even blows my mind more. I am glad Ballard is running the team.

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28 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

7-3 is a pretty wide margin, Warner is the one that should have 7. It might not be the best way to judge a player pass coverage wise but one would think INT's are important. Creating turnovers is a big reason why teams win. You are nitpicking 1 thing that Leonard wasn't great at last year, that is pass coverage. Several are doing it. I can nitpick any player in the league in reality regarding 1 area. Deion Sanders was an average tackler at best for example (some thought he even tried to avoid tackling as much as possible) but everyone would take him on their 1st team all-time team. At least 95% of people would. I just think this bashing of Leonard is insane, JMO. There are people in here that even say Nelson doesn't deserve the contract he is going to get. That even blows my mind more. I am glad Ballard is running the team.

If you think that it is nitpicking to point out that a LB is not good in coverage, then I don’t know bestie.  Of the two things a Lb does including stop the run, coverage is more relevant in today’s game IMO.

 

if DL doesn’t drastically improve his coverage skills, this is going to be a bad contract that will hurt the team overall IMO.  If we had great coverage guys then a free lancer like DL would be more valuable, but we don’t have good coverage guys.

 

ints are often deceptive.  The  InTs DL had in 2019 made him look better in coverage than he was  because it dropped his passer rating against more than it normally would.   Ints for LBs are often  Anamolous,  tipped balls and misreads of coverages by QBs cause most of them DL made a couple nice plays but 3 of the 5 were plays just about anyone would make.  Here are the 5.  1st play guy tips in twice and DLis initially 5 yds away.  2nd play is a good break,but fits throw is terrible.  2 of a million misreads by James.  Nice play on the last one.  https://www.colts.com/video/colts-return-to-grand-park-for-2021-training-camphttps://www.colts.com/video/colts-return-to-grand-park-for-2021-training-camp

 

if you looked at the film for the last two seasons, you’d probably not notice much s difference in his coverage play.  Pff reflects it.  The 0 Ints don’t indicate much in his play to me.  Ball just didn’t come his way.

 

he’s ok in coverage but not good enough to be paid like a premium position player.  I’d rather have just about any of those top 6 guys than DL at 20 mill per.  WE NEED GUYS WHO CAN COVER.

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14 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

7-3 is a pretty wide margin, Warner is the one that should have 7. It might not be the best way to judge a player pass coverage wise but one would think INT's are important. Creating turnovers is a big reason why teams win. You are nitpicking 1 thing that Leonard wasn't great at last year, that is pass coverage. Several are doing it. I can nitpick any player in the league in reality regarding 1 area. Deion Sanders was an average tackler at best for example (some thought he even tried to avoid tackling as much as possible) but everyone would take him on their 1st team all-time team. At least 95% of people would. I just think this bashing of Leonard is insane, JMO. There are people in here that even say Nelson doesn't deserve the contract he is going to get. That even blows my mind more. I am glad Ballard is running the team.

Fans for the most part hate seeing big contracts because in their mind that’s less stars their team can sign.  So I think that leads to a subconscious effort to find negatives to say they should get less.  Reality is good players get big contracts and if you aren’t willing to pay the player another team will.  
 

The idea of a hometown discount is few and far between because players view it as their responsibility to set up the next guy as the guys before them set them up.  It’s also almost unheard of for players to take hometown discount on their first big contract which is what all the Colts major free agents are about to get.  
 

So Colts fans (not you per say just building off your points) better prepare themselves for sticker shock because that’s what’s going to happen.  

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3 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

Fans for the most part hate seeing big contracts because in their mind that’s less stars their team can sign.  So I think that leads to a subconscious effort to find negatives to say they should get less.  Reality is good players get big contracts and if you aren’t willing to pay the player another team will.  
 

The idea of a hometown discount is few and far between because players view it as their responsibility to set up the next guy as the guys before them set them up.  It’s also almost unheard of for players to take hometown discount on their first big contract which is what all the Colts major free agents are about to get.  
 

So Colts fans (not you per say just building off your points) better prepare themselves for sticker shock because that’s what’s going to happen.  

I think Leonard and Nelson both deserve huge contracts. They have simply earned them. Making 1st team all-pro's year after year. Not sure what else they can do? You can't build a foundation or loyalty on a team if you just keep changing core players that are young and 1st team all-pro's. Leonard IMO is our 3rd best player on the team. I have Nelson #1, Buck #2. You have a top 3 player that is young on your team, you lock him in.

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15 minutes ago, Nickster said:

If you think that it is nitpicking to point out that a LB is not good in coverage, then I don’t know bestie.  Of the two things a Lb does including stop the run, coverage is more relevant in today’s game IMO.

 

if DL doesn’t drastically improve his coverage skills, this is going to be a bad contract that will hurt the team overall IMO.  If we had great coverage guys then a free lancer like DL would be more valuable, but we don’t have good coverage guys.

 

ints are often deceptive.  The  InTs DL had in 2019 made him look better in coverage than he was  because it dropped his passer rating against more than it normally would.   Ints for LBs are often  Anamolous,  tipped balls and misreads of coverages by QBs cause most of them DL made a couple nice plays but 3 of the 5 were plays just about anyone would make.

 

if you looked at the film for the last two seasons, you’d probably not notice much s difference in his coverage play.  Pff reflects it.  The 0 Ints don’t indicate much in his play to me.  Ball just didn’t come his way.

 

he’s ok in coverage but not good enough to be paid like a premium position player.  I’d rather have just about any of those top 6 guys than DL at 20 mill per.  WE NEED GUYS WHO CAN COVER.

Thing of it is he was good in coverage in 2018 and 2019, he had an off year last year regarding coverage. In 2019 he had 5 INT's and 1 TD. 2018 his coverage was good period. The best of the best have had off years in certain area's. It happens. Wentz had a bad year last year period but many think he can better than Luck in here.

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56 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Thing of it is he was good in coverage in 2018 and 2019, he had an off year last year regarding coverage. In 2019 he had 5 INT's and 1 TD. 2018 his coverage was good period. The best of the best have had off years in certain area's. It happens. Wentz had a bad year last year period but many think he can better than Luck in here.

Leonard was not great in coverage in 2019 even with the anamolous 5 INts lowering his QBs rating agianst Which was the basis of those wild sports writers claims that he was too 10 in coverage at any position.  When you look at each play and grade each play like PFf does and watch eveny Colts game like we do, it seems clear that he is not a top even 3rd type coverage dude,


As for the bolded yeah fine but we are not paying him Mahomes money for him nor did we even for sure give up a 1st round pick

 

I’m not saying Leaonad isn’t good.  Obviously he’s very good..

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28 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Leonard was not great in coverage in 2019 even with the anamolous 5 INts lowering his QBs rating agianst Which was the basis of those wild sports writers claims that he was too 10 in coverage at any position.  When you look at each play and grade each play like PFf does and watch eveny Colts game like we do, it seems clear that he is not a top even 3rd type coverage dude,


As for the bolded yeah fine but we are not paying him Mahomes money for him nor did we even for sure give up a 1st round pick

 

I’m not saying Leaonad isn’t good.  Obviously he’s very good..

I never said Leonard was great in coverage in 2018 and 2019, he was good though - big difference. Good is still good enough when you are a great tackler as a LB, he wasn't good last year but it is one area and he had an off year like I said in that one area. We will just have to agree to disagree on this regarding Leonard deserving his contract. It is a no brainer to me, he does. Tell me who we are going to get better than Leonard at that position? Giving up on a guy after 3 years, come on now man. Regarding Wentz, he still is being pay'd well and had a bad year, I don't see many in here saying it was a bad trade to get him. I wasn't for the trade at 1st but I am going to give it a chance. Leonard hasn't a bad year yet, 2 1st team all-pro's and 1 2nd team all-pro.

 

Unless someone is like Lawrence Taylor or Ray Lewis in their prime, some people will never be happy. Good luck with that lmao .

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26 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I never said Leonard was great in coverage in 2018 and 2019, he was good though - big difference. Good is still good enough when you are a great tackler as a LB, he wasn't good last year but it is one area and he had an off year like I said in that one area. We will just have to agree to disagree on this regarding Leonard deserving his contract. It is a no brainer to me, he does. Tell me who we are going to get better than Leonard at that position? Giving up on a guy after 3 years, come on now man. Regarding Wentz, he still is being pay'd well and had a bad year, I don't see many in here saying it was a bad trade to get him. I wasn't for the trade at 1st but I am going to give it a chance. Leonard hasn't a bad year yet, 2 1st team all-pro's and 1 2nd team all-pro.

 

Unless someone is like Lawrence Taylor or Ray Lewis in their prime, some people will never be happy. Good luck with that lmao .

This ain’t my point.  The relevant question to me is is this helpful to the team overall spending 20 mil per on a LB with questionable coverage skills?

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8 minutes ago, Nickster said:

This ain’t my point.  The relevant question to me is is this helpful to the team overall spending 20 mil per on a LB with questionable coverage skills?

Part of the problem you’re having is this….
 

You don’t want Leonard re-signed — Period.   At any price — period.   You’re not going to like him more at $17m or $15m.   You’ve said so countless times over the last year or so.  
 

You want him traded for whatever we can get.

 

You think he was drafted too high.   You’ve said so.   You want to be rid of him. 

 

And that’s not going to happen. 
 

I don’t know why you keep banging this same drum?   

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I would love to have access to numbers across the NFL to compare and see where Leonard fits amongst all off-ball LBs to see if he is truly average, above average or way above average and by how much. But in the absence of that I will just compare him only to Warner since Warner is currently one of the pillars of being seen as a good coverage LB

 

So to give an idea on some numbers and how they compare in the first 3 years on average:

 

DL- 78.1% completion percentage

FW- 62.9% completion percentage

 

DL- 8.90 yards per completion

FW- 9.08 yards per completion

 

DL- 5.75 average yards after catch

FW- 5.98 average yards after catch

 

DL- 6.70 yards per pass attempt targeting him

FW- 5.60 yards per pass attempt targeting him

 

DL- 6 TDs allowed

FW- 7 TDs allowed

 

 

My biggest takeaways from all of this is that Warner is indeed doing a considerably better job at limiting catches when he is targeted. To the tune of 15% less passes being completed against him. 

 

However, DL does a better job limiting the YAC and allows less yards per completion as well. 

 

At the end of the day I am not entirely sure how DL's numbers compare to all off-ball LBs, but they compare favorably to Warner everywhere except the completion percentage.

 

It is a big difference and I am not throwing that away. But if DL makes any marked improvement there then he's knocking on the door of being right up there as a coverage LB all while being a better tackler (in volume and missed tackle percentage) having more tackles for a loss, having more forced fumbles, having significantly more takeaways (11 to 6), having way more sacks (15 to 4), having more QB hits (26 to 15), and even having slightly more passes defensed (22 to 21).

 

 

DL deserves at least what FW is getting and it is easy to see why most think he deserves more.

 

He has earned it up until this point. The danger is obviously once he's paid those huge numbers does he continue to produce in a manner that is worth the inflated contract?

 

My guess is people won't think he earns it once he gets the big money but that is because we are spoiled with how good he has been for how cheap his contract has been until this point.

 

I am happy to pay him and Q the big money and let the rest sort itself out. Especially with us not having big $ invested in expensive spots like WR, CB and Edge now and in the near future.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Nickster said:

This ain’t my point.  The relevant question to me is is this helpful to the team overall spending 20 mil per on a LB with questionable coverage skills?

What if you let Leonard walk for someone that has better pass coverage at WILL but doesn't create turnovers or tackle like Leonard. His coverage skills weren't questionable in 2018 or 2019 is really my point. We all know last year he struggled in that area but it was 1 year. Take away a guy that can tackle like him, our team will get ran all over. Leonard lead the league in tackles in 2018 and was 8th last year. Your LB's should be great tacklers and great at getting to the QB. If we had a good secondary, Leonard could be above average in pass coverage and we could get away with it. Moore is a good player, outside of that our secondary is real suspect. If anything should be criticized it is our secondary.

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7 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Part of the problem you’re having is this….
 

You don’t want Leonard re-signed — Period.   At any price — period.   You’re not going to like him more at $17m or $15m.   You’ve said so countless times over the last year or so.  
 

You want him traded for whatever we can get.

 

You think he was drafted too high.   You’ve said so.   You want to be rid of him. 

 

And that’s not going to happen. 
 

I don’t know why you keep banging this same drum?   

I haven’t said any of the things you’ve said.  Like ever.  On here or anywhere else.

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10 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Part of the problem you’re having is this….
 

You don’t want Leonard re-signed — Period.   At any price — period.   You’re not going to like him more at $17m or $15m.   You’ve said so countless times over the last year or so.  
 

You want him traded for whatever we can get.

 

You think he was drafted too high.   You’ve said so.   You want to be rid of him. 

 

And that’s not going to happen. 
 

I don’t know why you keep banging this same drum?   

He is so much like moosejaw, you may have mixed the 2 up lmao but I do believe @Nickster would be ok with Leonard walking if we offer him a huge contract. If he isn't ok with Leonard walking, he should say so. 

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10 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I haven’t said any of the things you’ve said.  Like ever.  On here or anywhere else.

Sorry.   My bad.   I thought I was responding to Moosehead.  
 

Sometimes I get you two confused.   Again, my bad.   :peek:

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1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

What if you let Leonard walk for someone that has better pass coverage at WILL but doesn't create turnovers or tackle like Leonard. His coverage skills weren't questionable in 2018 or 2019 is really my point. We all know last year he struggled in that area but it was 1 year. Take away a guy that can tackle like him, our team will get ran all over. Leonard lead the league in tackles in 2018 and was 8th last year? Your LB's should be great tacklers and great at getting to the QB. If we had a good secondary, Leonard could be above average in pass coverage and we could get away with it. Moore is a good player outside of that our secondary is real suspect. If anything should be criticized it is our secondary.

Oh our coverage is poor no doubt.  I,agree with the bolded wholeheartedly.  We just don’t have a good ,secondary.


these are good points about what do you do.  My opinion is that overall this won’t look that great as a contract which is the difficulty of runnung a team in the NFL.  You are almost forced to sign him for what he wants here and that WILL take away from money for other players.  You wouldn’t get any value in a trade.

 

 

 

 

 

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