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Colts have most underrated wr corp in nfl


Stephen
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I will agree with others here that our WR group is probably average but I will say has potential to be a bit better...   its certainly not elite or projects to upper echelon.

 

But the Danger is that if there's a injury or two, and this is a physical game, the group can easily go down to lower third or worse. And that would really compromise our running game since Defense's wouldn't respect our passing attack.

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12 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

Are we really arguing Hilton's impact with the colts? Go check his impact with Andrew before he got hurt. Also he's only 600 yards short of 10000. 

 

I asked if TY has ever truly been a #1 WR (maybe I should have said an elite #1 WR).  

 

He came on strong his second year, especially after Reggie got hurt... prior to that, he was clearly the #2 WR on the roster.  His 3rd year he was good, with 82 receptions for 1,345 yards and with a gimpy Reggie, TY was our top guy ... but, he had 82 receptions and 7 TDs (not really an elite #1 WR there (tied for 21 in the league in receptions, 25th in the league in TDs... he was 6th in yards and did have a nice yards per catch, but not really a very good yards per target as he was 118th in the league in catch rate at 62.6%).  

 

TY had 69 receptions the following year.  Then 91 receptions for 1,448 yards the next year in what was by far is best season.  He led the league in yards, was 10th in receptions, and with 6 TDs he was tied for 25th.  He had a 58.7% catch rate, ranking 139th in the NFL.  

 

After that, TY's best season was 75 receptions.  He has never had 10 TDs in a season (7 is his max and he's done that twice).  His catch rate has never been very good.  Compared to Reggie and Marv, TY's numbers aren't really close (he'll need 5 or more productive seasons to touch Reggie or Marv in receiving yards and quite a bit more seasons than that to come close to them in receptions or TDs).  

 

I like TY.  He's been a good player for us.  He is a good guy.  The best he's ever been in receptions in the league is 10th (not elite), which he did 1x.  He was 20th in receptions 1x and aside from that was never in the top 20 in the league.  He's never had more than 7 TDs in a single season (this is not elite, Marv had 8 straight seasons with 10+ TDs).  He's never had 100+ receptions in a season (he broke 90 once, barely with 91 and has broken 80 two other times, and 70 one other time... Reggie had 9 straight seasons with 75+ receptions, 4 of them were 100+, Marvin had 8 straight seasons with 80+ receptions, 4 of them 100+ and two more 90+... TY has four seasons in his career with more than 70 receptions... that is not elite).  

 

Didn't really say anything about TY not being productive with the Colts.  He certainly is nowhere near Marv or Reggie and compared to the rest of the league, there is only 1 year (2016) where you can make an argument that he was an elite #1 WR (I think the fact that he was 10th in receptions and only had 6 TDs that year means you can also argue against him being elite compared to the rest of the league, though he did have the most yards despite an awful catch rate).

 

Long story short... TY has (maybe) one year out of 9 in the league where he was a top notch #1 WR compared to the rest of the league, and that was 5 years ago.  You can say he has helped demand safety help, etc... but Marv used to get double or triple covered every play and still somehow had 143 receptions in a season.... TY doesn't get the same attention and has only had 90 receptions once in 9 years.  He also has had a lot more injury issues than Marv and Reggie this early in his career.  He is not a very productive TD scorer (never has been) and at this point in his career, it's not like he's going to somehow become faster or much better and out of nowhere become this elite #1 WR type which you are disillusioned about.

 

3 hours ago, Nickster said:

Great post.  Hey man where is that pic in your avatar?  Reminds me of when I lived in northern AZ.

 

Thanks... the pic is in southeast Wyoming (Snowy range mountains).

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6 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

I asked if TY has ever truly been a #1 WR (maybe I should have said an elite #1 WR).  

 

He came on strong his second year, especially after Reggie got hurt... prior to that, he was clearly the #2 WR on the roster.  His 3rd year he was good, with 82 receptions for 1,345 yards and with a gimpy Reggie, TY was our top guy ... but, he had 82 receptions and 7 TDs (not really an elite #1 WR there (tied for 21 in the league in receptions, 25th in the league in TDs... he was 6th in yards and did have a nice yards per catch, but not really a very good yards per target as he was 118th in the league in catch rate at 62.6%).  

 

TY had 69 receptions the following year.  Then 91 receptions for 1,448 yards the next year in what was by far is best season.  He led the league in yards, was 10th in receptions, and with 6 TDs he was tied for 25th.  He had a 58.7% catch rate, ranking 139th in the NFL.  

 

After that, TY's best season was 75 receptions.  He has never had 10 TDs in a season (7 is his max and he's done that twice).  His catch rate has never been very good.  Compared to Reggie and Marv, TY's numbers aren't really close (he'll need 5 or more productive seasons to touch Reggie or Marv in receiving yards and quite a bit more seasons than that to come close to them in receptions or TDs).  

 

I like TY.  He's been a good player for us.  He is a good guy.  The best he's ever been in receptions in the league is 10th (not elite), which he did 1x.  He was 20th in receptions 1x and aside from that was never in the top 20 in the league.  He's never had more than 7 TDs in a single season (this is not elite, Marv had 8 straight seasons with 10+ TDs).  He's never had 100+ receptions in a season (he broke 90 once, barely with 91 and has broken 80 two other times, and 70 one other time... Reggie had 9 straight seasons with 75+ receptions, 4 of them were 100+, Marvin had 8 straight seasons with 80+ receptions, 4 of them 100+ and two more 90+... TY has four seasons in his career with more than 70 receptions... that is not elite).  

 

Didn't really say anything about TY not being productive with the Colts.  He certainly is nowhere near Marv or Reggie and compared to the rest of the league, there is only 1 year (2016) where you can make an argument that he was an elite #1 WR (I think the fact that he was 10th in receptions and only had 6 TDs that year means you can also argue against him being elite compared to the rest of the league, though he did have the most yards despite an awful catch rate).

 

Long story short... TY has (maybe) one year out of 9 in the league where he was a top notch #1 WR compared to the rest of the league, and that was 5 years ago.  You can say he has helped demand safety help, etc... but Marv used to get double or triple covered every play and still somehow had 143 receptions in a season.... TY doesn't get the same attention and has only had 90 receptions once in 9 years.  He also has had a lot more injury issues than Marv and Reggie this early in his career.  He is not a very productive TD scorer (never has been) and at this point in his career, it's not like he's going to somehow become faster or much better and out of nowhere become this elite #1 WR type which you are disillusioned about.

 

 

Thanks... the pic is in southeast Wyoming (Snowy range mountains).

Same type of landscape.  I miss it out there.

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  Judging from the draft and the fact that they didn’t pick up a WR in free agency, the Colts are okay with who they have. There’s contracts to be done and going out to get a “name” could prohibit moves they need to make. 
      The Colts ranked 10th in total offense, 11th in passing offense and 8th in scoring offense. The Colts had 14 drops last year, which was near the top of the league, in terms of efficiency. (KC had almost twice as much - 25). 
       Just going by those rankings, to put their receivers at 24th is a bit of an oversight, IMO.
        
    

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I was thinking that this is the first time since maybe 2015 that the Colts had two really good WRs starting.  Moncrief had a good season.

 

After that TY really never had another WR to take the heat off of him.

 

Now, if Campbell can stay on the field, it will really be unique.

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22 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

I asked if TY has ever truly been a #1 WR (maybe I should have said an elite #1 WR).  

 

He came on strong his second year, especially after Reggie got hurt... prior to that, he was clearly the #2 WR on the roster.  His 3rd year he was good, with 82 receptions for 1,345 yards and with a gimpy Reggie, TY was our top guy ... but, he had 82 receptions and 7 TDs (not really an elite #1 WR there (tied for 21 in the league in receptions, 25th in the league in TDs... he was 6th in yards and did have a nice yards per catch, but not really a very good yards per target as he was 118th in the league in catch rate at 62.6%).  

 

TY had 69 receptions the following year.  Then 91 receptions for 1,448 yards the next year in what was by far is best season.  He led the league in yards, was 10th in receptions, and with 6 TDs he was tied for 25th.  He had a 58.7% catch rate, ranking 139th in the NFL.  

 

After that, TY's best season was 75 receptions.  He has never had 10 TDs in a season (7 is his max and he's done that twice).  His catch rate has never been very good.  Compared to Reggie and Marv, TY's numbers aren't really close (he'll need 5 or more productive seasons to touch Reggie or Marv in receiving yards and quite a bit more seasons than that to come close to them in receptions or TDs).  

 

I like TY.  He's been a good player for us.  He is a good guy.  The best he's ever been in receptions in the league is 10th (not elite), which he did 1x.  He was 20th in receptions 1x and aside from that was never in the top 20 in the league.  He's never had more than 7 TDs in a single season (this is not elite, Marv had 8 straight seasons with 10+ TDs).  He's never had 100+ receptions in a season (he broke 90 once, barely with 91 and has broken 80 two other times, and 70 one other time... Reggie had 9 straight seasons with 75+ receptions, 4 of them were 100+, Marvin had 8 straight seasons with 80+ receptions, 4 of them 100+ and two more 90+... TY has four seasons in his career with more than 70 receptions... that is not elite).  

 

Didn't really say anything about TY not being productive with the Colts.  He certainly is nowhere near Marv or Reggie and compared to the rest of the league, there is only 1 year (2016) where you can make an argument that he was an elite #1 WR (I think the fact that he was 10th in receptions and only had 6 TDs that year means you can also argue against him being elite compared to the rest of the league, though he did have the most yards despite an awful catch rate).

 

Long story short... TY has (maybe) one year out of 9 in the league where he was a top notch #1 WR compared to the rest of the league, and that was 5 years ago.  You can say he has helped demand safety help, etc... but Marv used to get double or triple covered every play and still somehow had 143 receptions in a season.... TY doesn't get the same attention and has only had 90 receptions once in 9 years.  He also has had a lot more injury issues than Marv and Reggie this early in his career.  He is not a very productive TD scorer (never has been) and at this point in his career, it's not like he's going to somehow become faster or much better and out of nowhere become this elite #1 WR type which you are disillusioned about.

 

Being elite isn't all about receptions and touchdowns. It's about impact. It's about your legacy on the team. No one is ever gonna say Eldeman is a true number 1 WR, but you ask anyone in New England and they'll say he's a legend. Hilton is not Marv. Let's get that out of the way. He will never be Marv, but you can't tell me Hilton hasn't had moments that didn't make you say that was Marv like. You don't get 10000 yards without making an impact on this league.

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1 hour ago, CR91 said:

 

Being elite isn't all about receptions and touchdowns. It's about impact. It's about your legacy on the team. No one is ever gonna say Eldeman is a true number 1 WR, but you ask anyone in New England and they'll say he's a legend. Hilton is not Marv. Let's get that out of the way. He will never be Marv, but you can't tell me Hilton hasn't had moments that didn't make you say that was Marv like. You don't get 10000 yards without making an impact on this league.

Elite is a subjective term, but any WR that averages 1000 a year, or 70/game (which is 1100/year), I think most would agree they are both #1 WRs and elite.

 

Both TY and Marvin check those boxes. Marvin has 7 more yards per game than TY, but also had the benefit of playing with Manning, one of the best long ball guys ever. Had TY played with Manning, you can believe his stats would have been on par or better than Marvin's.

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On 6/17/2021 at 7:38 PM, CR91 said:

 

Being elite isn't all about receptions and touchdowns. It's about impact. It's about your legacy on the team. No one is ever gonna say Eldeman is a true number 1 WR, but you ask anyone in New England and they'll say he's a legend. Hilton is not Marv. Let's get that out of the way. He will never be Marv, but you can't tell me Hilton hasn't had moments that didn't make you say that was Marv like. You don't get 10000 yards without making an impact on this league.

He doesn't have 10,000 yards yet.

 

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1 hour ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

He doesn't have 10,000 yards yet.

 

 

You honestly think he can't get 600 yards? All he has to do is average like 40 yards a game

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On 6/17/2021 at 10:38 PM, CR91 said:

 

Being elite isn't all about receptions and touchdowns. It's about impact. It's about your legacy on the team. No one is ever gonna say Eldeman is a true number 1 WR, but you ask anyone in New England and they'll say he's a legend. Hilton is not Marv. Let's get that out of the way. He will never be Marv, but you can't tell me Hilton hasn't had moments that didn't make you say that was Marv like. You don't get 10000 yards without making an impact on this league.

 

There are 3 main categories to judge a WR on.  They are receptions, receiving yards and receiving TDs.  Then there are things which aren't really measurable like blocking, impact on the game, etc... and other things like catch rate, yards per reception (and yards per attempt), etc. 

 

In the main 3 categories, TY is not elite (not really close) in 2 of the 3 - those being TDs and receptions.  TY has been at or near the elite level of receiving yards in 4 or 5 of his 9 years (between 44-55%).  I think 1000 yards is very good (62.5 ypg) and over 1100 (really 1120) is elite with 70 ypg.  Four times TY has been >1100 and another time he was close with 1083.  Marv had over 1100 yards 9 of his 13 seasons (>69%) and did it 9 years in a row.

 

TY has had a catch rate >60% in 4 of his 9 seasons (44%)... Marv did it 10 of his 13 season (>76%).  

 

The only areas where TY beats Marvin statistically are yards per receptions (15.4 to 13.2) and yards per target (9 to 8.2 - this is smaller because TY catches less balls thrown his way than Marv).  

 

TY is definitely a team leader and a good guy.  He is a speedster and earlier in his career had some terrific deep catches.  He's definitely had some memorable moments.  

 

That said, in Marv's first 9 years he had 11,185 yards (almost 2k more than TY).  In his first 9 years, Marv had 845 receptions (237 more than TY over the same span).  In his first 9 years, Marv had 98 TDs (48 more than TYs 50 in the same span).  

 

Going by @EastStreet's YPG metric of >70 yards per game being elite... TY has done that 4 times in his 9 year career (44.4%).  Marv did that 8 years in a row between 1999-2006.  

 

Really, TY had one very good year (91 receptions for 1448 yards and 6 TDs), which is significantly better than all his other years and borderline elite.  He had 3 good years (82/1083/7, 82/1145/5, 76/1270/6), an average (or slightly above average) year (69/1124/5), and 4 mediocre or well below (for a #1 WR) average years... this means if you're judging him as a #1 WR, he's been better than average about half the time.  Marv had 5 years which are clearly better than TYs best year, and at least one or two more that you could argue were on par with TYs best year.  

 

I don't care about TY wearing a clown mask to a division game, or his fun TD dance, etc. in this argument.  I care about numbers and facts... and the fact is -- TY is not an elite WR in the NFL.  By elite, I'm talking HOF caliber guy.  For about 50% of TY's career he may be in the Hall of Good-to-Very-Good, otherwise he's been pretty average.  

 

Sure, some moments of TY remind me of Marv... but when any WR on the team makes a good catch or gets in the endzone you can argue that it also reminds me of Marv.

 

They're not on the same page, and it's not close.

 

On 6/18/2021 at 12:10 AM, EastStreet said:

Elite is a subjective term, but any WR that averages 1000 a year, or 70/game (which is 1100/year), I think most would agree they are both #1 WRs and elite.

 

Both TY and Marvin check those boxes. Marvin has 7 more yards per game than TY, but also had the benefit of playing with Manning, one of the best long ball guys ever. Had TY played with Manning, you can believe his stats would have been on par or better than Marvin's.

 

I disagree.  You're looking over the course of both their careers.  TY's averages for his career are highly skewed to 4 very good years in terms of his yards.  His TD numbers and reception numbers have never been close to Marv.  Marv's last two years were by far his worst and that was directly related to a blown out knee -- Marv stayed very healthy the rest of his career.  If we put Marv's best year vs TY's best year, it's not close... if we put Marv's best two years vs. TY's best two years, it's not even close... so on and so forth over 9 years.  

 

Yes, obviously Marv had the fortune of playing with Peyton... but I think there's a strong argument that Luck had a stronger arm than Peyton and that TY is more of a one-trick pony than Marv (i.e., most of TY's damage throughout his career has been long-ball damage which is reflected in him having higher yards per catch than Marv).

 

Both guys had other HOF caliber WRs in the league when they played.  Overlap with Reggie, Larry Fitz, Andre Johnson, Anquan Boldin, Steve Smith and maybe a few more.  Marv had TO, Randy Moss, Cris Carter, Torry Holt and maybe a few more borderline guys.  TY has had Julio Jones, DeAndre Hopkins, AB, Megatron and a few others.

 

I have never heard anyone say TY is the best WR in the NFL at any point during his career.  No announcer, no Colts' fans I know, and most importantly no players.  Multiple CBs in the NFL (including Champ Bailey, Peanut Tillman, Shawn Springs - three of the better DBs in Marv's era) said Marv was the best and the hardest guy to guard.

 

Not saying TY's numbers may not have been slightly better if he had Peyton.. but I don't think he ever would have been better than Marv.  If TY and Marv were on the same team, TY would be the #2 guy.  If Marv, Reggie and TY were all on the same team in their prime, TY would be the #3 guy.  

 

If you took all the players in NFL history and you had to pick two teams, I have a hard time believing Marv wouldn't be picked to be on the first team (saying 5-6 WRs per team), and no way would he be left off the second team.  I don't think TY gets listed as an alternate for either team, in fact I don't think he'd make it on the 3rd team, 4th team or 5th team.

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On 6/21/2021 at 8:52 AM, CurBeatElite said:

 

There are 3 main categories to judge a WR on.  They are receptions, receiving yards and receiving TDs.  Then there are things which aren't really measurable like blocking, impact on the game, etc... and other things like catch rate, yards per reception (and yards per attempt), etc. 

 

In the main 3 categories, TY is not elite (not really close) in 2 of the 3 - those being TDs and receptions.  TY has been at or near the elite level of receiving yards in 4 or 5 of his 9 years (between 44-55%).  I think 1000 yards is very good (62.5 ypg) and over 1100 (really 1120) is elite with 70 ypg.  Four times TY has been >1100 and another time he was close with 1083.  Marv had over 1100 yards 9 of his 13 seasons (>69%) and did it 9 years in a row.

 

TY has had a catch rate >60% in 4 of his 9 seasons (44%)... Marv did it 10 of his 13 season (>76%).  

 

The only areas where TY beats Marvin statistically are yards per receptions (15.4 to 13.2) and yards per target (9 to 8.2 - this is smaller because TY catches less balls thrown his way than Marv).  

 

TY is definitely a team leader and a good guy.  He is a speedster and earlier in his career had some terrific deep catches.  He's definitely had some memorable moments.  

 

That said, in Marv's first 9 years he had 11,185 yards (almost 2k more than TY).  In his first 9 years, Marv had 845 receptions (237 more than TY over the same span).  In his first 9 years, Marv had 98 TDs (48 more than TYs 50 in the same span).  

 

Going by @EastStreet's YPG metric of >70 yards per game being elite... TY has done that 4 times in his 9 year career (44.4%).  Marv did that 8 years in a row between 1999-2006.  

 

Really, TY had one very good year (91 receptions for 1448 yards and 6 TDs), which is significantly better than all his other years and borderline elite.  He had 3 good years (82/1083/7, 82/1145/5, 76/1270/6), an average (or slightly above average) year (69/1124/5), and 4 mediocre or well below (for a #1 WR) average years... this means if you're judging him as a #1 WR, he's been better than average about half the time.  Marv had 5 years which are clearly better than TYs best year, and at least one or two more that you could argue were on par with TYs best year.  

 

I don't care about TY wearing a clown mask to a division game, or his fun TD dance, etc. in this argument.  I care about numbers and facts... and the fact is -- TY is not an elite WR in the NFL.  By elite, I'm talking HOF caliber guy.  For about 50% of TY's career he may be in the Hall of Good-to-Very-Good, otherwise he's been pretty average.  

 

Sure, some moments of TY remind me of Marv... but when any WR on the team makes a good catch or gets in the endzone you can argue that it also reminds me of Marv.

 

They're not on the same page, and it's not close.

 

 

I disagree.  You're looking over the course of both their careers.  TY's averages for his career are highly skewed to 4 very good years in terms of his yards.  His TD numbers and reception numbers have never been close to Marv.  Marv's last two years were by far his worst and that was directly related to a blown out knee -- Marv stayed very healthy the rest of his career.  If we put Marv's best year vs TY's best year, it's not close... if we put Marv's best two years vs. TY's best two years, it's not even close... so on and so forth over 9 years.  

 

Yes, obviously Marv had the fortune of playing with Peyton... but I think there's a strong argument that Luck had a stronger arm than Peyton and that TY is more of a one-trick pony than Marv (i.e., most of TY's damage throughout his career has been long-ball damage which is reflected in him having higher yards per catch than Marv).

 

Both guys had other HOF caliber WRs in the league when they played.  Overlap with Reggie, Larry Fitz, Andre Johnson, Anquan Boldin, Steve Smith and maybe a few more.  Marv had TO, Randy Moss, Cris Carter, Torry Holt and maybe a few more borderline guys.  TY has had Julio Jones, DeAndre Hopkins, AB, Megatron and a few others.

 

I have never heard anyone say TY is the best WR in the NFL at any point during his career.  No announcer, no Colts' fans I know, and most importantly no players.  Multiple CBs in the NFL (including Champ Bailey, Peanut Tillman, Shawn Springs - three of the better DBs in Marv's era) said Marv was the best and the hardest guy to guard.

 

Not saying TY's numbers may not have been slightly better if he had Peyton.. but I don't think he ever would have been better than Marv.  If TY and Marv were on the same team, TY would be the #2 guy.  If Marv, Reggie and TY were all on the same team in their prime, TY would be the #3 guy.  

 

If you took all the players in NFL history and you had to pick two teams, I have a hard time believing Marv wouldn't be picked to be on the first team (saying 5-6 WRs per team), and no way would he be left off the second team.  I don't think TY gets listed as an alternate for either team, in fact I don't think he'd make it on the 3rd team, 4th team or 5th team.

 

We also need to add the fact Marv never had to deal with injuries to his QB or a lackluster oline. I honestly think if Hilton had a healthy Luck, we could be talking about an entirely different player stats wise. Hilton had Hasslebeck, Brissett, and Rivers throwing to him along with an injury-plauged Luck from 2015-2020. This is why I don't put much weight in stats because they all tell different stories.

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12 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

We also need to add the fact Marv never had to deal with injuries to his QB or a lackluster oline. I honestly think if Hilton had a healthy Luck, we could be talking about an entirely different player stats wise. Hilton had Hasslebeck, Brissett, and Rivers throwing to him along with an injury-plauged Luck from 2015-2020. This is why I don't put much weight in stats because they all tell different stories.

Probably the best comment on this thread. TY Hilton has been a #1 receiver in this league, no doubt about it. His recent decline, which is subtle but real, is impacting a few peoples' opinions, it would seem. But you cannot argue with his long term results, and when taken in the context of CR91's comment above, his status as a #1 is secure as far as I'm concerned. 

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13 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

We also need to add the fact Marv never had to deal with injuries to his QB or a lackluster oline. I honestly think if Hilton had a healthy Luck, we could be talking about an entirely different player stats wise. Hilton had Hasslebeck, Brissett, and Rivers throwing to him along with an injury-plauged Luck from 2015-2020. This is why I don't put much weight in stats because they all tell different stories.

 

 TY was over targeted by Luck period. Luck waited and waited  for TY to get open for longer passes, many of which was throwing into double coverage resulting in too many Int.'s
 Luck is sitting home now with Irsays $$$ largely because of getting blown up "Nice Hit" waiting for the TY Long Ball.
 TY did not run that good of intermediary routes as he had trouble with skating while attempting quick cuts. I have no problem remembering them trying to use him on sweeps in years one and two and watching him slip/fall on his * when he had to make a cut. 
 TY was/is a weapon but it was very unfortunate Luck didn't have very good accuracy inside 12 yards or so. He was late, high, and threw to the wrong shoulder over, and over, and over..... year after year after year...
One year of Frank and he QUIT!!!

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56 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 TY was over targeted by Luck period. Luck waited and waited  for TY to get open for longer passes, many of which was throwing into double coverage resulting in too many Int.'s
 Luck is sitting home now with Irsays $$$ largely because of getting blown up "Nice Hit" waiting for the TY Long Ball.
 TY did not run that good of intermediary routes as he had trouble with skating while attempting quick cuts. I have no problem remembering them trying to use him on sweeps in years one and two and watching him slip/fall on his * when he had to make a cut. 
 TY was/is a weapon but it was very unfortunate Luck didn't have very good accuracy inside 12 yards or so. He was late, high, and threw to the wrong shoulder over, and over, and over..... year after year after year...
One year of Frank and he QUIT!!!

 

So you're blaming Hilton for our offensive approach? 

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1 hour ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 TY was over targeted by Luck period. 

 

Parts of your take aren't entirely off- mostly, Luck was oddly not a great intermediate passer. Good, but should have been sharper. This though is glossing over all kinds of stuff. Namely, that Luck managed to keep guys like Donny Avery involved enough to allow TY to get deep on occasion. To the degree the passing game was forced, lot's of this stems from the frustration that was that whole slice of time- the O-line, run game weren't reliable. Luck was. 

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2 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 [1] TY was over targeted by Luck period. Luck waited and waited  for TY to get open for longer passes, many of which was throwing into double coverage resulting in too many Int.'s
 Luck is sitting home now with Irsays $$$ largely because of getting blown up "Nice Hit" waiting for the TY Long Ball.
 TY did not run that good of intermediary routes as he had trouble with skating while attempting quick cuts. I have no problem remembering them trying to use him on sweeps in years one and two and watching him slip/fall on his * when he had to make a cut. 
 TY was/is a weapon but it was very unfortunate Luck didn't have very good accuracy inside 12 yards or so. He was late, high, and threw to the wrong shoulder over, and over, and over..... year after year after year...
One year of Frank and he QUIT!!!

I agree. Luck should have spread the ball around to guys like:

 

1. Griff Whalen

2. Coby Fleener

3. Dwayne Allen

4. Donnie Avery

5. Phillip Dorsett

6. Donte Moncrief

7. Hakeem Nicks (past his prime)

8. Andre Johnson (past his prime)

9. Lavon Brazill

10. Darius Heyward-Bey

11. Da'Rick Rogers

12. Quan Bray

13. Kamar Aiken, etc...............

 

Maybe it's less of a Luck and T.Y problem and more of a lack of other quality receivers problem?

 

Luck had no problem passing to Reggie Wayne early in his career. And as Jack Doyle grew to be more reliable, Luck trusted him more and more. It seems to me that you are blaming Luck and T.Y for relying on each other when there really wasn't anyone else to rely on. And still, they found a way to continue being a winning team.

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

We also need to add the fact Marv never had to deal with injuries to his QB or a lackluster oline. I honestly think if Hilton had a healthy Luck, we could be talking about an entirely different player stats wise. Hilton had Hasslebeck, Brissett, and Rivers throwing to him along with an injury-plauged Luck from 2015-2020. This is why I don't put much weight in stats because they all tell different stories.

Glad someone said this, it seemed they glossed over the fact that Marv had Manning for most of his career.

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1 minute ago, Never_Quit said:

Zach Pascal has had two years in a row of 40ish for 600ish and 5 TDs each.

 

The dude is the very definition of average. 

Considering he’s not a full time player, you couldn’t be more wrong. 

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2 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Considering he’s not a full time player, you couldn’t be more wrong. 

 

Following that logic, why has he not earned more playing time? 

 

I know he is a fan favorite and he has some clutch catches (because he is a receiver in the NFL and that is necessary to keep your job), but the guy is an average receiver. 

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2 hours ago, Never_Quit said:

 

 

Following that logic, why has he not earned more playing time? 

 

I know he is a fan favorite and he has some clutch catches (because he is a receiver in the NFL and that is necessary to keep your job), but the guy is an average receiver. 

That’s your opinion.   As you noted, others here think more highly if him.   Depends on your perspective.    It might help if you didn’t make being average sound like an insult. 

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On 6/11/2021 at 11:33 AM, Stephen said:

To many the colts have question marks at wr but I don't think so. T.y. Hilton is built to play with big armed QBs like wentz. Also Michael will thrive with our improved down field passing attack. He was poorly used in that way with rivers.

  Then comes our most under rated wr Zach pascal. He's capable of being a 1000 yard receiver with Wentz under center and went for over 600 yards twice with brissett and rivers. An excellent blocker and an all around great wr. 

 

This doesn't factor in our two x factors Parris Campbell and Kylen Granson. Parris is all about health and Granson it's all about targets. If Granson gets the targets he will beat Dwayne Allen's rookie record for recs and will have the colts rookie record for tes

 

I would say the Colts have the okayest WR group in the league. Pittman is a stud and TY has been great but he’s on the back nine, I've been pretending Campbell is already injured again. I really hope Patmon can overtake Pascal to be honest, or maybe he could bulk up 20 pounds and play the move tightend role we've been missing since that guy who came over from Detroit quit the team. Must be some reason he was on the game roster all season last year. 

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3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

That’s your opinion.   As you noted, others here think more highly if him.   Depends on your perspective.    It might help if you didn’t make being average sound like an insult. 

I think you won this disagreement. 
Such a good point about the concept of average. Average stats for all WRs is still darn good; and for your 3-4 WR, very good. In addition, Pascal’s impact isn’t average. Clutch on 3rd down; exceptional blocker; can reliably return kicks if needed. He’s a key piece of glue. 

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On 6/22/2021 at 8:45 PM, CR91 said:

 

We also need to add the fact Marv never had to deal with injuries to his QB or a lackluster oline. I honestly think if Hilton had a healthy Luck, we could be talking about an entirely different player stats wise. Hilton had Hasslebeck, Brissett, and Rivers throwing to him along with an injury-plauged Luck from 2015-2020. This is why I don't put much weight in stats because they all tell different stories.

 

I can see the argument that Marv played the majority of his career with Peyton and TY didn't, to an extent.

 

To ignore stats is ridiculous, though.  At the end of the day/season/career, a player is judged on his production and the fact of the matter is that ~50% of TY's seasons have been average at best in terms of production.  Only one of his seasons did he put up numbers which were arguably worthy of being true #1 numbers.  This was 2016 when he had 91 receptions (arguably #1 WR type production, but I'd argue 100+ is the benchmark for a #1), 1448 yards (truly #1 WR type production), and 6 TDs (not even close to #1 WR production, Marv had 6+ TDs in each of his first 11 seasons, with 8 of them in a row being 10+ and six of those being 12+).

 

Look at TY's game logs that year, which was by far his best year.  He was kept out of the endzone 10 games.  One game he was held to 1 catch on 6 targets.  Three other games he was held to 3 catches, two more to 4 catches, one more to 5 catches.  He had 5 games with <50 yards, and another with 54 yards.  When teams wanted to take TY out of the game, it was possible to do so (he had 7 games with less than 6 catches).

 

That season, TY did not get near the amount of attention from opposing D's as Marvin did in 2002, when he was double or triple teamed consistently.  Yes, this is before Reggie broke out as a legit #2 to Marv and before the Ty Law Rule, when CBs were allowed to be much more physical against WRs than they ever were in TY's career.  In 2002 (Marv's best season), Marv was held to 4 catches for 34 yards and a TD week 1.  Aside from that he was not held to less than 6 catches in any game of the season and held to under 75 yards just one other time (last game of the season). 

 

I don't think we need to go any further here, as it doesn't matter how many facts, stats, etc. you need.  You have some grand illusion that TY is somehow an all-time elite WR.  I like TY, and don't want to bash him.  Fact of the matter is, he's only had 1 season in his career where you could argue (with 6 TDs and less than 100 receptions, the best you can do is argue) that he was truly a solid #1 WR by current NFL standards.

 


We don't need to look at TY's career as a whole to see that he has been largely inconsistent (some of this may be due to QB play, sure)... we can look at his best year and see that he was widely inconsistent even then with 7 games being held under 6 catches (6 games under 5 catches), 6 games under 70 yards, 10 games with 0 TDs, 7 games with a catch rate of 50% or less (5 of them <50, two at 50.. in 2002, when Marv was getting consistently more attention from defenses and getting mugged, he had 1 game with a 50% catch rate and everything else >50%).  Even in his BEST year (by far), TY was widely inconsistent.  This is not the sign of a true #1 WR -- a true #1 WR, like Marv, puts up numbers week in and week out.  TY was taken out of games about 44% of the time in his best season.  He had some monster games, sure, but when teams wanted to take him out, they could (expect Houston for some reason always seems to struggle with him). truly a high level #1 WR.

 

The QB argument is OK, but it only goes so far.  On a far lesser team overall, Larry Fitzgerald put up 100+ receptions, 10 TDs and >1400 yards with Josh McCown as his QB, he put up similar numbers to TY's best year with other unknowns (guys far lesser than Luck) as his QB on several occasions.  That is just one example, but there are plenty of WRs who have put up numbers similar to or better than TY's best year (by far) with QBs who are far lesser than Luck.

 

Saying 'I don't put much weight into stats because they all tell different stories' is a weak argument, in my opinion.  Even in his best year, TY was effectively taken out of games 43.5% (7 games) of the time on the stat sheet. 

 

That'd be like if I took 16 exams during a semester of college, got 100% on 9 of them (not that TY was 100% in the 9 he wasn't shut out), got a 0 on one (that'd be TY's game where he was held to 1 catch on 6 targets) and 50% on 6 exams and walked away with a 75% average (making me a C or D student),  going up to the professor and saying -- "hey professor, I didn't perform well 7 times, can you just not put any weight on those exams? I really am an A student, I just showed up drunk and/or forgot to study 43.5% of the time.  Those tests show a different story, let's just not count them and agree that I'm an A+ student."

 

21 hours ago, Hoose said:

Probably the best comment on this thread. TY Hilton has been a #1 receiver in this league, no doubt about it. His recent decline, which is subtle but real, is impacting a few peoples' opinions, it would seem. But you cannot argue with his long term results, and when taken in the context of CR91's comment above, his status as a #1 is secure as far as I'm concerned. 

 

His recent decline isn't impacting my opinion at all.  I'm going on his career stats and even looking into stats during the best years of his career.  He has played 9 seasons.  He has never had >100 receptions in a season (a benchmark for a #1 WR).  He has broken 90 receptions (with 91) once (so even if we are very generous, 1/9 times he has put up #1 WR reception numbers).  He has had 82 receptions on two more occasions (once when he was Reggie's #2 the whole year and once when he was Reggie's number two the first half of the year, so he wasn't really even our #1 then), he had 76 receptions once (that is maybe average for a #2 WR) and he has never put up over 70 receptions in his other 5 seasons.  So on receptions, if we're being generous, he's been a solid #1 guy in 1/9 seasons (11% of his career).  He has never had more than 7 TD receptions in a single season in his career (my benchmark for a top-tier #1 would be 10, even if we're generous, I'd said 8 which is a TD in 50% of games), so in the TD category he has been a solid #1 guy 0% of his career.  Yards wise, I'd say the bench mark for a solid #1 is minimum 1,200 (75 yards per game), which TY has done 3 times.  We can be generous and say 1,120 (70 ypg).  In that case, TY's done it 4 times - so yards wise, he's been a top-tier #1 guy 33.3% or 44.4% of his career.

 

Again, I like TY.  He's been a good Colt and a fun guy to watch.  Fact of the matter is, he's only had 1 season in 9 where you can even argue that he was a top tier #1 WR per league standards.  The other two best years of his, he wasn't even the #1 WR on our team (well in one case, Reggie got hurt game 7, so he was for ~50% of the season).  When fully healthy, in his best season, as I show above, he was able to be effectively taken out of games 43.5% of the time... with his recent injuries, it's gotten worse for sure, but it's not like it was ever great.

 

10 hours ago, KelownaColtsFan said:

I would say the Colts have the okayest WR group in the league. Pittman is a stud and TY has been great but he’s on the back nine, I've been pretending Campbell is already injured again. I really hope Patmon can overtake Pascal to be honest, or maybe he could bulk up 20 pounds and play the move tightend role we've been missing since that guy who came over from Detroit quit the team. Must be some reason he was on the game roster all season last year. 

 

Pittman had 40 receptions for 503 yards and 1 TD as a rookie.  He showed flashes, for sure... but IMO, it's best to hold off on calling him a stud for now.  TY had a very good season in 2016 (not a great season with only 91 receptions and 6 TDs) and has had two consecutive seasons with <775 yards, <60 receptions and 5 TDs each... you're right, he seems to be on his back 9, but he hasn't been very good since 2016 and has certainly been nowhere near great with any sort of consistency since then.

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2 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

I can see the argument that Marv played the majority of his career with Peyton and TY didn't, to an extent.

 

To ignore stats is ridiculous, though.  At the end of the day/season/career, a player is judged on his production and the fact of the matter is that ~50% of TY's seasons have been average at best in terms of production.  Only one of his seasons did he put up numbers which were arguably worthy of being true #1 numbers.  This was 2016 when he had 91 receptions (arguably #1 WR type production, but I'd argue 100+ is the benchmark for a #1), 1448 yards (truly #1 WR type production), and 6 TDs (not even close to #1 WR production, Marv had 6+ TDs in each of his first 11 seasons, with 8 of them in a row being 10+ and six of those being 12+).

 

Look at TY's game logs that year, which was by far his best year.  He was kept out of the endzone 10 games.  One game he was held to 1 catch on 6 targets.  Three other games he was held to 3 catches, two more to 4 catches, one more to 5 catches.  He had 5 games with <50 yards, and another with 54 yards.  When teams wanted to take TY out of the game, it was possible to do so (he had 7 games with less than 6 catches).

 

That season, TY did not get near the amount of attention from opposing D's as Marvin did in 2002, when he was double or triple teamed consistently.  Yes, this is before Reggie broke out as a legit #2 to Marv and before the Ty Law Rule, when CBs were allowed to be much more physical against WRs than they ever were in TY's career.  In 2002 (Marv's best season), Marv was held to 4 catches for 34 yards and a TD week 1.  Aside from that he was not held to less than 6 catches in any game of the season and held to under 75 yards just one other time (last game of the season). 

 

I don't think we need to go any further here, as it doesn't matter how many facts, stats, etc. you need.  You have some grand illusion that TY is somehow an all-time elite WR.  I like TY, and don't want to bash him.  Fact of the matter is, he's only had 1 season in his career where you could argue (with 6 TDs and less than 100 receptions, the best you can do is argue) that he was truly a solid #1 WR by current NFL standards.

 


We don't need to look at TY's career as a whole to see that he has been largely inconsistent (some of this may be due to QB play, sure)... we can look at his best year and see that he was widely inconsistent even then with 7 games being held under 6 catches (6 games under 5 catches), 6 games under 70 yards, 10 games with 0 TDs, 7 games with a catch rate of 50% or less (5 of them <50, two at 50.. in 2002, when Marv was getting consistently more attention from defenses and getting mugged, he had 1 game with a 50% catch rate and everything else >50%).  Even in his BEST year (by far), TY was widely inconsistent.  This is not the sign of a true #1 WR -- a true #1 WR, like Marv, puts up numbers week in and week out.  TY was taken out of games about 44% of the time in his best season.  He had some monster games, sure, but when teams wanted to take him out, they could (expect Houston for some reason always seems to struggle with him). truly a high level #1 WR.

 

The QB argument is OK, but it only goes so far.  On a far lesser team overall, Larry Fitzgerald put up 100+ receptions, 10 TDs and >1400 yards with Josh McCown as his QB, he put up similar numbers to TY's best year with other unknowns (guys far lesser than Luck) as his QB on several occasions.  That is just one example, but there are plenty of WRs who have put up numbers similar to or better than TY's best year (by far) with QBs who are far lesser than Luck.

 

Saying 'I don't put much weight into stats because they all tell different stories' is a weak argument, in my opinion.  Even in his best year, TY was effectively taken out of games 43.5% (7 games) of the time on the stat sheet. 

 

That'd be like if I took 16 exams during a semester of college, got 100% on 9 of them (not that TY was 100% in the 9 he wasn't shut out), got a 0 on one (that'd be TY's game where he was held to 1 catch on 6 targets) and 50% on 6 exams and walked away with a 75% average (making me a C or D student),  going up to the professor and saying -- "hey professor, I didn't perform well 7 times, can you just not put any weight on those exams? I really am an A student, I just showed up drunk and/or forgot to study 43.5% of the time.  Those tests show a different story, let's just not count them and agree that I'm an A+ student."

 

 

His recent decline isn't impacting my opinion at all.  I'm going on his career stats and even looking into stats during the best years of his career.  He has played 9 seasons.  He has never had >100 receptions in a season (a benchmark for a #1 WR).  He has broken 90 receptions (with 91) once (so even if we are very generous, 1/9 times he has put up #1 WR reception numbers).  He has had 82 receptions on two more occasions (once when he was Reggie's #2 the whole year and once when he was Reggie's number two the first half of the year, so he wasn't really even our #1 then), he had 76 receptions once (that is maybe average for a #2 WR) and he has never put up over 70 receptions in his other 5 seasons.  So on receptions, if we're being generous, he's been a solid #1 guy in 1/9 seasons (11% of his career).  He has never had more than 7 TD receptions in a single season in his career (my benchmark for a top-tier #1 would be 10, even if we're generous, I'd said 8 which is a TD in 50% of games), so in the TD category he has been a solid #1 guy 0% of his career.  Yards wise, I'd say the bench mark for a solid #1 is minimum 1,200 (75 yards per game), which TY has done 3 times.  We can be generous and say 1,120 (70 ypg).  In that case, TY's done it 4 times - so yards wise, he's been a top-tier #1 guy 33.3% or 44.4% of his career.

 

Again, I like TY.  He's been a good Colt and a fun guy to watch.  Fact of the matter is, he's only had 1 season in 9 where you can even argue that he was a top tier #1 WR per league standards.  The other two best years of his, he wasn't even the #1 WR on our team (well in one case, Reggie got hurt game 7, so he was for ~50% of the season).  When fully healthy, in his best season, as I show above, he was able to be effectively taken out of games 43.5% of the time... with his recent injuries, it's gotten worse for sure, but it's not like it was ever great.

 

 

Pittman had 40 receptions for 503 yards and 1 TD as a rookie.  He showed flashes, for sure... but IMO, it's best to hold off on calling him a stud for now.  TY had a very good season in 2016 (not a great season with only 91 receptions and 6 TDs) and has had two consecutive seasons with <775 yards, <60 receptions and 5 TDs each... you're right, he seems to be on his back 9, but he hasn't been very good since 2016 and has certainly been nowhere near great with any sort of consistency since then.

Pittman was a rookie in a year with a non existent offseason, and he had that weird leg injury early on. With that in mind, I would say did more than flash.

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2 hours ago, KelownaColtsFan said:

Pittman was a rookie in a year with a non existent offseason, and he had that weird leg injury early on. With that in mind, I would say did more than flash.

The only part where this argument falls down is that Justin Jefferson was in the same situation and absolutely tore it up. 

His leg injury didnt help though. I expect a big jump in year 2 from Pittman though.

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9 hours ago, KelownaColtsFan said:

Pittman was a rookie in a year with a non existent offseason, and he had that weird leg injury early on. With that in mind, I would say did more than flash.

 

I would not go anywhere near as far as calling him a stud, though.

 

I am optimistic on him for sure.  I'm optimistic on Parris Campbell too, but he gets a lot of weird injuries and has done more than flash.

 

When he puts up several consecutive seasons of >1000 yards, in the ~10 TD area, >90 receptions... we can start the stud talk.

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On 6/21/2021 at 11:52 AM, CurBeatElite said:

 

I disagree.  You're looking over the course of both their careers.  TY's averages for his career are highly skewed to 4 very good years in terms of his yards.  His TD numbers and reception numbers have never been close to Marv.  Marv's last two years were by far his worst and that was directly related to a blown out knee -- Marv stayed very healthy the rest of his career.  If we put Marv's best year vs TY's best year, it's not close... if we put Marv's best two years vs. TY's best two years, it's not even close... so on and so forth over 9 years.  

And Marv's avgs are highly skewed by having a career with Peyton, one of the best long ball throwers of all time. Then consider Lucks injuries, and some of the QBs TY has had to play with.

On 6/21/2021 at 11:52 AM, CurBeatElite said:

 

Yes, obviously Marv had the fortune of playing with Peyton... but I think there's a strong argument that Luck had a stronger arm than Peyton and that TY is more of a one-trick pony than Marv (i.e., most of TY's damage throughout his career has been long-ball damage which is reflected in him having higher yards per catch than Marv).

 

Both guys had other HOF caliber WRs in the league when they played.  Overlap with Reggie, Larry Fitz, Andre Johnson, Anquan Boldin, Steve Smith and maybe a few more.  Marv had TO, Randy Moss, Cris Carter, Torry Holt and maybe a few more borderline guys.  TY has had Julio Jones, DeAndre Hopkins, AB, Megatron and a few others.

 

I have never heard anyone say TY is the best WR in the NFL at any point during his career.  No announcer, no Colts' fans I know, and most importantly no players.  Multiple CBs in the NFL (including Champ Bailey, Peanut Tillman, Shawn Springs - three of the better DBs in Marv's era) said Marv was the best and the hardest guy to guard.

 

Not saying TY's numbers may not have been slightly better if he had Peyton.. but I don't think he ever would have been better than Marv.  If TY and Marv were on the same team, TY would be the #2 guy.  If Marv, Reggie and TY were all on the same team in their prime, TY would be the #3 guy.  

 

If you took all the players in NFL history and you had to pick two teams, I have a hard time believing Marv wouldn't be picked to be on the first team (saying 5-6 WRs per team), and no way would he be left off the second team.  I don't think TY gets listed as an alternate for either team, in fact I don't think he'd make it on the 3rd team, 4th team or 5th team.

I disagree on mostly all of this. Sorry, but Luck didn't hold a candle to Manning in any facet. When you have the highest flying O for years and years with Manning, you simply can't compare that to TY's years with Luck. Manning had a higher AVG and completion %, and that simply equates to more opportunity. Not trying to bag on Luck, but he wasn't near Peyton's level.

 

Not saying TY is better than Marv, or really anyone. It's just something that's hard to compare and contrast. But you simply can't overlook the fact Marv had Manning, who was on another level than Luck.

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On 6/26/2021 at 2:41 PM, EastStreet said:

And Marv's avgs are highly skewed by having a career with Peyton, one of the best long ball throwers of all time. Then consider Lucks injuries, and some of the QBs TY has had to play with.

I disagree on mostly all of this. Sorry, but Luck didn't hold a candle to Manning in any facet. When you have the highest flying O for years and years with Manning, you simply can't compare that to TY's years with Luck. Manning had a higher AVG and completion %, and that simply equates to more opportunity. Not trying to bag on Luck, but he wasn't near Peyton's level.

 

Not saying TY is better than Marv, or really anyone. It's just something that's hard to compare and contrast. But you simply can't overlook the fact Marv had Manning, who was on another level than Luck.

 

You could also say Peyton's career is skewed by having a WR like Marv.  He was the best route runner of his era, by far, and possibly the best all time (hard to argue against).  

 

Long story short, TY is a poor man's Marv and is not a true 'elite' #1 WR in the NFL.  He never was and he never will be.

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I would definitely not use the word underrated. Talent wise it's bottom five in the league, effort wise top 15. As fans we can only hope someone will step up but as of now, it's run or done.

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On 6/26/2021 at 11:41 AM, EastStreet said:

And Marv's avgs are highly skewed by having a career with Peyton, one of the best long ball throwers of all time. Then consider Lucks injuries, and some of the QBs TY has had to play with.

I disagree on mostly all of this. Sorry, but Luck didn't hold a candle to Manning in any facet. When you have the highest flying O for years and years with Manning, you simply can't compare that to TY's years with Luck. Manning had a higher AVG and completion %, and that simply equates to more opportunity. Not trying to bag on Luck, but he wasn't near Peyton's level.

 

Not saying TY is better than Marv, or really anyone. It's just something that's hard to compare and contrast. But you simply can't overlook the fact Marv had Manning, who was on another level than Luck.

Finally, you said something I agree with:  "Sorry, but Luck didn't hold a candle to Manning in any facet."

 

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On 6/26/2021 at 11:41 AM, EastStreet said:

And Marv's avgs are highly skewed by having a career with Peyton, one of the best long ball throwers of all time. Then consider Lucks injuries, and some of the QBs TY has had to play with.

I disagree on mostly all of this. Sorry, but Luck didn't hold a candle to Manning in any facet. When you have the highest flying O for years and years with Manning, you simply can't compare that to TY's years with Luck. Manning had a higher AVG and completion %, and that simply equates to more opportunity. Not trying to bag on Luck, but he wasn't near Peyton's level.

 

Not saying TY is better than Marv, or really anyone. It's just something that's hard to compare and contrast. But you simply can't overlook the fact Marv had Manning, who was on another level than Luck.

 

To the part in bold,  I agree.    Always have.

 

When I joined in 2012,  posters here asked me all the time about Luck and how good could he be?  Would he be as great as Peyton?   I said this 9 years ago,  and I've said every year since....   Andrew Luck was never EVER going to be as good as Peyton Manning.   But, I added,  he didn't have to be.  He only had to be the best version possible of Andrew Luck.   Sadly, for a long list of reasons,  I don't think we came close to seeing the best Andrew Luck.   Just flashes, with 2018 being his best year.

 

I don't object to people thinking Manning was better than Luck.   So do I.   What I do object to isn't what people say,  it's what they don't say....

 

They don't say Luck didn't have two HoF WR's, like Harrison or an in his prime Reggie Wayne.

They don't say Luck didn't have a great TE like Dallas Clark.   The closest was one year of Ebron

They don't say Luck didn't have good secondary WR's like Collie or White.   (were there others?)

They don't say Luck didn't have top RB's like Edge or Addai.   Just Mack in 2018.

They don't say Luck didn't have a very good OL.   Not until 2018.

They don't say Luck didn't have a great OC like Tom Moore.

They don't say Luck didn't have a great OL coach like Howard Mudd.

 

They simply say Manning was better.   To me,  that's superficial and stating the obvious.   But rarely does anyone here note the difference in what Peyton had to support him vs. what Luck did.     Night and Day.    That's a load of talent that Peyton had that Luck didn't come close to having.  And even if Andrew did have that type of talent,  Manning was still better.   But at least it offers some type of context that any discussion of Luck around here typically doesn't contain.

 

I'm sorry fans here didn't see the Andrew Luck I think he could've been.......

 

 

 

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On 6/17/2021 at 10:38 PM, CR91 said:

 

Being elite isn't all about receptions and touchdowns. It's about impact. It's about your legacy on the team. No one is ever gonna say Eldeman is a true number 1 WR, but you ask anyone in New England and they'll say he's a legend. Hilton is not Marv. Let's get that out of the way. He will never be Marv, but you can't tell me Hilton hasn't had moments that didn't make you say that was Marv like. You don't get 10000 yards without making an impact on this league.

For 6 years Edelman was one of the elite when on the field.  Missed several games but still averaged about 1000 yds per season from 2013-2019.  In the playoffs during that time he was one of the GOATs..  Dude was unguardable.  I will call him elite, especially in the context of NE tendency to spread it around.  


He was not much a factor during his first 4 years in the league but was HOF for the 6 he played IMO whew you factor in he averaged about 110 yds per game in 10 playoff games during that timed period.

 

he was a little white dude and not what you would expect from a top receiver but was elite for those 6 years IMO.  At least as good as TY in the reg season and as good as anyone ever in the post.

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4 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

To the part in bold,  I agree.    Always have.

 

When I joined in 2012,  posters here asked me all the time about Luck and how good could he be?  Would he be as great as Peyton?   I said this 9 years ago,  and I've said every year since....   Andrew Luck was never EVER going to be as good as Peyton Manning.   But, I added,  he didn't have to be.  He only had to be the best version possible of Andrew Luck.   Sadly, for a long list of reasons,  I don't think we came close to seeing the best Andrew Luck.   Just flashes, with 2018 being his best year.

 

I don't object to people thinking Manning was better than Luck.   So do I.   What I do object to isn't what people say,  it's what they don't say....

 

They don't say Luck didn't have two HoF WR's, like Harrison or an in his prime Reggie Wayne.

They don't say Luck didn't have a great TE like Dallas Clark.   The closest was one year of Ebron

They don't say Luck didn't have good secondary WR's like Collie or White.   (were there others?)

They don't say Luck didn't have top RB's like Edge or Addai.   Just Mack in 2018.

They don't say Luck didn't have a very good OL.   Not until 2018.

They don't say Luck didn't have a great OC like Tom Moore.

They don't say Luck didn't have a great OL coach like Howard Mudd.

 

They simply say Manning was better.   To me,  that's superficial and stating the obvious.   But rarely does anyone here note the difference in what Peyton had to support him vs. what Luck did.     Night and Day.    That's a load of talent that Peyton had that Luck didn't come close to having.  And even if Andrew did have that type of talent,  Manning was still better.   But at least it offers some type of context that any discussion of Luck around here typically doesn't contain.

 

I'm sorry fans here didn't see the Andrew Luck I think he could've been.......

 

 

 

Yup.  Amen.

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7 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

To the part in bold,  I agree.    Always have.

 

When I joined in 2012,  posters here asked me all the time about Luck and how good could he be?  Would he be as great as Peyton?   I said this 9 years ago,  and I've said every year since....   Andrew Luck was never EVER going to be as good as Peyton Manning.   But, I added,  he didn't have to be.  He only had to be the best version possible of Andrew Luck.   Sadly, for a long list of reasons,  I don't think we came close to seeing the best Andrew Luck.   Just flashes, with 2018 being his best year.

 

I don't object to people thinking Manning was better than Luck.   So do I.   What I do object to isn't what people say,  it's what they don't say....

 

They don't say Luck didn't have two HoF WR's, like Harrison or an in his prime Reggie Wayne.

They don't say Luck didn't have a great TE like Dallas Clark.   The closest was one year of Ebron

They don't say Luck didn't have good secondary WR's like Collie or White.   (were there others?)

They don't say Luck didn't have top RB's like Edge or Addai.   Just Mack in 2018.

They don't say Luck didn't have a very good OL.   Not until 2018.

They don't say Luck didn't have a great OC like Tom Moore.

They don't say Luck didn't have a great OL coach like Howard Mudd.

 

They simply say Manning was better.   To me,  that's superficial and stating the obvious.   But rarely does anyone here note the difference in what Peyton had to support him vs. what Luck did.     Night and Day.    That's a load of talent that Peyton had that Luck didn't come close to having.  And even if Andrew did have that type of talent,  Manning was still better.   But at least it offers some type of context that any discussion of Luck around here typically doesn't contain.

 

I'm sorry fans here didn't see the Andrew Luck I think he could've been.......

 

 

 

Would those receivers you mentioned have been as good as they were playing with Luck? Manning made people around him better. Luck never did that with the possible exception of TY Hilton.

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1 hour ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

Would those receivers you mentioned have been as good as they were playing with Luck? Manning made people around him better. Luck never did that with the possible exception of TY Hilton.

 

 Interesting question.
 Not until after Manning getting harrassed by Pittsburg in the playoffs at the end of his 5th season did he fully become the player we like to remember.
 He refined his throwing with tighter spirals and became almost unhinged in his effort to Excel in the short passing game. He demanded of himself and his receivers to be ultimately precise with the routes and timing.
 That is when our offense started scaring even Belichek. Chuckle! We remember that day.
 NCF layed it all out there what Andrew didn't have. True True True.
A shame he didn't start his career with a Ballard to build him a total package like what i see coming here now, and to have a coach to give him the system to excel. Luck would still be playing and in his PRIME.

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On 6/28/2021 at 8:32 AM, CurBeatElite said:

 

You could also say Peyton's career is skewed by having a WR like Marv.  He was the best route runner of his era, by far, and possibly the best all time (hard to argue against).  

 

Long story short, TY is a poor man's Marv and is not a true 'elite' #1 WR in the NFL.  He never was and he never will be.

It's all subjective, and all opinion. I do agree Marv was probably better, but I wouldn't say it's because of route running. Height would be my differentiator. But I also know TY's numbers would have been easier better with PM (putting him on par with Marv's stats). And you can say Marv might have helped PM's stats, but you'd be intellectually dishonest IMO if you think Luck was on the same level as PM, so the benefit  clearly goes to Marv having a better QB.

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9 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

To the part in bold,  I agree.    Always have.

 

When I joined in 2012,  posters here asked me all the time about Luck and how good could he be?  Would he be as great as Peyton?   I said this 9 years ago,  and I've said every year since....   Andrew Luck was never EVER going to be as good as Peyton Manning.   But, I added,  he didn't have to be.  He only had to be the best version possible of Andrew Luck.   Sadly, for a long list of reasons,  I don't think we came close to seeing the best Andrew Luck.   Just flashes, with 2018 being his best year.

 

I don't object to people thinking Manning was better than Luck.   So do I.   What I do object to isn't what people say,  it's what they don't say....

 

They don't say Luck didn't have two HoF WR's, like Harrison or an in his prime Reggie Wayne.

They don't say Luck didn't have a great TE like Dallas Clark.   The closest was one year of Ebron

They don't say Luck didn't have good secondary WR's like Collie or White.   (were there others?)

They don't say Luck didn't have top RB's like Edge or Addai.   Just Mack in 2018.

They don't say Luck didn't have a very good OL.   Not until 2018.

They don't say Luck didn't have a great OC like Tom Moore.

They don't say Luck didn't have a great OL coach like Howard Mudd.

 

They simply say Manning was better.   To me,  that's superficial and stating the obvious.   But rarely does anyone here note the difference in what Peyton had to support him vs. what Luck did.     Night and Day.    That's a load of talent that Peyton had that Luck didn't come close to having.  And even if Andrew did have that type of talent,  Manning was still better.   But at least it offers some type of context that any discussion of Luck around here typically doesn't contain.

 

I'm sorry fans here didn't see the Andrew Luck I think he could've been.......

 

 

 

Was AL as good as PM?  No of course not but at the time of the draft all i heard was that he had the potential to be the greatest of all time that included manning, elway, and et al.  I'm surprised you didn't think so at the time.  However, what i was hearing about his potential was pure speculation and you had watched his whole college career.  

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24 minutes ago, Fluke_33 said:

Was AL as good as PM?  No of course not but at the time of the draft all i heard was that he had the potential to be the greatest of all time that included manning, elway, and et al.  I'm surprised you didn't think so at the time.  However, what i was hearing about his potential was pure speculation and you had watched his whole college career.  

I said at that time and still think to this day….

 

That Luck had Hall of Fame talent….   But you have to have some help along the way…..  things have to go right for you.   It’s not that I didn’t think Luck would be great — I absolutely did.   Just not as great as Peyton.  That’s a pretty high bar to clear. 

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9 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

To the part in bold,  I agree.    Always have.

 

When I joined in 2012,  posters here asked me all the time about Luck and how good could he be?  Would he be as great as Peyton?   I said this 9 years ago,  and I've said every year since....   Andrew Luck was never EVER going to be as good as Peyton Manning.   But, I added,  he didn't have to be.  He only had to be the best version possible of Andrew Luck.   Sadly, for a long list of reasons,  I don't think we came close to seeing the best Andrew Luck.   Just flashes, with 2018 being his best year.

 

I don't object to people thinking Manning was better than Luck.   So do I.   What I do object to isn't what people say,  it's what they don't say....

 

They don't say Luck didn't have two HoF WR's, like Harrison or an in his prime Reggie Wayne.

They don't say Luck didn't have a great TE like Dallas Clark.   The closest was one year of Ebron

They don't say Luck didn't have good secondary WR's like Collie or White.   (were there others?)

They don't say Luck didn't have top RB's like Edge or Addai.   Just Mack in 2018.

They don't say Luck didn't have a very good OL.   Not until 2018.

They don't say Luck didn't have a great OC like  

They don't say Luck didn't have a great OL coach like Howard Mudd.

 

They simply say Manning was better.   To me,  that's superficial and stating the obvious.   But rarely does anyone here note the difference in what Peyton had to support him vs. what Luck did.     Night and Day.    That's a load of talent that Peyton had that Luck didn't come close to having.  And even if Andrew did have that type of talent,  Manning was still better.   But at least it offers some type of context that any discussion of Luck around here typically doesn't contain.

 

I'm sorry fans here didn't see the Andrew Luck I think he could've been.......

I agree with most of this. I was happy we drafted Luck. I thought the timing sucked a bit, but it was what it was. I also thought he had a great ceiling, but didn't think he'd be better than PM, but like you, didn't think he had to be. 

 

The surrounding talent and coaching is a whole other debate. I also think Luck created some of his own issues. 

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