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Colts have most underrated wr corp in nfl


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31 minutes ago, Myles said:

I disagree with that.

Crap!, that is a conversation for a different thread.   I don't doubt he makes it, it is just that I would be more strict on who gets in.

Yeah...he was a good player but not HOF material. Only made the playoffs 7 out of 17 years. He will definitely make it but I personally feel he is a product of the current era but still was an above average player.  Still, a topic for another thread.  Probably shouldn’t have responded lol. 

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Ehhhhhh, i think everyone has them rated pretty correctly. An aging speed guy, a still relatively unknown 2nd year player, a speedster who hasnt been able to stay healthy, a barely average WR and the

I have no problem with our WR group being ranked 24th.    Frankly,  I thought it might be lower.   But I agree with the poster who said we're more unknown than under appreciated.  

Pittman does not have breakaway speed, IMO and NO, he was not poorly used. I sometimes wonder how fans seem to know better than the OC and HC???    Rivers had career numbers in this offense.

2 hours ago, Myles said:

I disagree with that.

Crap!, that is a conversation for a different thread.   I don't doubt he makes it, it is just that I would be more strict on who gets in.

What is your argument against him being in the HOF?  

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21 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Pittman runs 4.52, which is great for his size. His short shuttle is also great. Not sure I'd say he was used poorly, but he wasn't used to the fullest of his extent. You can view his route charts on nextgen, but he was rarely targeted beyond 10 yards, and it seemed almost never down the sideline deep. Mostly short stuff and crossers.

 

It's not knowing better than an OC or HC, it's simply seeing scheme patterns and use, and in some cases, comparing to other teams who have a more dynamic passing attack. And no, not a huge fan of Reich's conservative passing attack.

He's an above average blocker, average at best receiver. He's steady, but doesn't have the size or speed to really be go-to weapon. His best use IMO is as a rotational big/bully-slot where he can get a mismatch.

I agree with most of what you said here about Pascal except for the blocker part he’s a very good blocker for a receiver just ask 51 for the raiders 

 

 

Pascal is never going to be a number one WR and frankly shouldn’t be your number two but what gets him on the field is that he does the dirty work WRs need to do.  He’s a guy you want on your team but I agree with your overall point if he’s your “guy” at WR you have a problem at WR.

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There's a far greater argument that the receiving core is overrated, really. The whole thing is based on unproven assumptions because our only steady, predictable guy is Pascal. Everything else, we're all assuming TY isn't washed, Campbell will stay healthy and Pittman will take another step. Those things might be true, but we don't know that at all. 

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2 hours ago, Nickster said:

What is your argument against him being in the HOF?  

Rivers has to get in, I mean they allowed a QB with a 173/220  td to int (-47), who completed a mere 50.1% of his career passes, who won 62 starts while losing 63, who only won 2 career playoffs games both in same season......if they allow in a scrub like that how can Rivers not get in ? I think we all know who that QB is too.....lol

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23 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

That's better then barely average. I'm just saying Pascal is important because of all the dirty work that is done that is not on the stat sheet.

Average, barely average, etc., that's all subjective. I look at him ideally as a 4th, 5th or 6th WR, on a team that has a good WR unit. In other words, great depth.  If he's starting for you, it's likely that you're team is dealing with injuries or a lack of talent.

 

I love Pascal, and especially love him for doing all the dirty work. And I'm happy he's a Colt. I just don't see him as starter level. Nothing wrong with that. Teams need great depth guys.

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2 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

I agree with most of what you said here about Pascal except for the blocker part he’s a very good blocker for a receiver just ask 51 for the raiders 

 

 

Pascal is never going to be a number one WR and frankly shouldn’t be your number two but what gets him on the field is that he does the dirty work WRs need to do.  He’s a guy you want on your team but I agree with your overall point if he’s your “guy” at WR you have a problem at WR.

I said he's an above average blocker. That was not an attempt to knock him. He's also above average at running routes. 

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14 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I said he's an above average blocker. That was not an attempt to knock him. He's also above average at running routes. 

I think he’s more than above average at blocking.  I think he’s flat out good at it.  With that said we are nit picking when we agree on the overall point that’s not and never is going to be a number one and probably shouldn’t be a number two for you have a really good WR group.

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3 hours ago, Nickster said:

What is your argument against him being in the HOF?  

Mine is just personal.   Based on history of who they let in, he is a shoe in.  

I would just like to see the HOF be tougher to get in to.   In none of the years Rivers played was he considered one of the top 4 (maybe 5) QB's in the league.  My criteria would include that during your era, you had to have been thought of as one of the top 1-3 in the league at your position for a few years.  Not a stat based evaluation.  More of an era based evaluation.  

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1 hour ago, GoColts8818 said:

I think he’s more than above average at blocking.  I think he’s flat out good at it.  With that said we are nit picking when we agree on the overall point that’s not and never is going to be a number one and probably shouldn’t be a number two for you have a really good WR group.

Above average means good to me. I'd say he's borderline great some games. The clip is a chip though. Very effective, but a chip a chip. Dulin is also a guy who blocks very well for a WR. 

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1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

Average, barely average, etc., that's all subjective. I look at him ideally as a 4th, 5th or 6th WR, on a team that has a good WR unit. In other words, great depth.  If he's starting for you, it's likely that you're team is dealing with injuries or a lack of talent.

 

I love Pascal, and especially love him for doing all the dirty work. And I'm happy he's a Colt. I just don't see him as starter level. Nothing wrong with that. Teams need great depth guys.

 

People were saying the same thing about Hilton. I'm not saying he will be the next great Colt WR, but also don't underestimate his importance to the team.

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6 minutes ago, CR91 said:

People were saying the same thing about Hilton. I'm not saying he will be the next great Colt WR, but also don't underestimate his importance to the team.

 

Not sure I remember hearing folks say that about Hilton. Nor would I compare their situations. TY always had high ceiling traits, which he made the best of. Pascal has very pedestrian traits (speed and size), but has played well despite it due to doing the little things right. 

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24 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Not sure I remember hearing folks say that about Hilton. Nor would I compare their situations. TY always had high ceiling traits, which he made the best of. Pascal has very pedestrian traits (speed and size), but has played well despite it due to doing the little things right. 

 

It was early in his career. Posters refused to believe Hilton could be a WR1. Size? Pascal is 6 2 200 pounds. That is not a small guy. I would say his route running, blocking, and catching are pretty good. Not great, but it works for him and he comes through when we need him. If you want more proof in the colts belief in him, Pascal outsnapped Hilton towards the end of the season.

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Not including our TE room, just looking at our WR group I would say they are average overall. Average isn't bad but not good either obviously. TY Hilton has had a very good career, I wouldn't say great but very good. Great career's were Marv and Reggie. TY is still an above average WR IMO though but the rest of the guys we have are really still unproven as in Pittman, Pascal, and Campbell. Pittman IMO can end up being in the good category when it is all said and done, I like his talent. I think he improves quite a bit this year, Pascal gets every ounce out of his talent and I love his effort each week but in reality he is average. Can Campbell stay healthy? That is a huge question, if so he can be good with his speed. Luckily we have a very good if not great RB room and O.Line which should help and if Wentz can be just in the good category that will help the WR's out bigtime. If Wentz is basically average we will be in trouble. If he is bad we are screwed lol.

 

Our TE room is above average IMO, I have always respected Doyle, he has sure hands and gets big first downs - he is above average. Cox is above average as well with good talent and great athleticism. If that rookie (Granson) pans out our TE room will be actually deep.

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Average group of receivers with some upside and ZP is a good blocker. Like to be able to re-visit this in December and call them a very good group of pass catchers, but a few things have to happen first. Campbell needs to stay on the field, Pittman needs to improve and TY has to stay healthy. This unit has the potential to surprise some naysayers, they could also disappoint the optimists.

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13 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

It was early in his career. Posters refused to believe Hilton could be a WR1. Size? Pascal is 6 2 200 pounds. That is not a small guy. I would say his route running, blocking, and catching are pretty good. Not great, but it works for him and he comes through when we need him. If you want more proof in the colts belief in him, Pascal outsnapped Hilton towards the end of the season.

Love TY.  Should have been a 2nd type of receiver like he was before Old Man Reg got hurt.  Never scored enough TDs IMo for a WR type.

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On 6/12/2021 at 2:34 PM, Thebrashandthebold said:

There is no wide receiver group in the NFL that is more overrated by the teams fans than this group with the Colts. There is no number one receiver on the team. Several of them are injury prone. I think it is one of the weakest aspects of the Colts and I think they will show those issues early and often. Some of it will be masked by the running game and ability of the running backs to be effective in the passing game.

 

Hilton is still the number one wr

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15 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Not including our TE room, just looking at our WR group I would say they are average overall. Average isn't bad but not good either obviously. TY Hilton has had a very good career, I wouldn't say great but very good. Great career's were Marv and Reggie. TY is still an above average WR IMO though but the rest of the guys we have are really still unproven as in Pittman, Pascal, and Campbell. Pittman IMO can end up being in the good category when it is all said and done, I like his talent. I think he improves quite a bit this year, Pascal gets every ounce out of his talent and I love his effort each week but in reality he is average. Can Campbell stay healthy? That is a huge question, if so he can be good with his speed. Luckily we have a very good if not great RB room and O.Line which should help and if Wentz can be just in the good category that will help the WR's out bigtime. If Wentz is basically average we will be in trouble. If he is bad we are screwed lol.

 

Our TE room is above average IMO, I have always respected Doyle, he has sure hands and gets big first downs - he is above average. Cox is above average as well with good talent and great athleticism. If that rookie (Granson) pans out our TE room will be actually deep.

Granson will be our best receiving te hands down

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15 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

It was early in his career. Posters refused to believe Hilton could be a WR1. Size? Pascal is 6 2 200 pounds. That is not a small guy. I would say his route running, blocking, and catching are pretty good. Not great, but it works for him and he comes through when we need him. If you want more proof in the colts belief in him, Pascal outsnapped Hilton towards the end of the season.

Pascal could possibly be a 1000 yard wr  if he and Wentz are in sync

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10 hours ago, groundnpound said:

Average group of receivers with some upside and ZP is a good blocker. Like to be able to re-visit this in December and call them a very good group of pass catchers, but a few things have to happen first. Campbell needs to stay on the field, Pittman needs to improve and TY has to stay healthy. This unit has the potential to surprise some naysayers, they could also disappoint the optimists.

Do you think  Chris Ballard thinks they are average considering he didn't take a wr high in the draft or that he has alot of faith in current group

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1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Do you think  Chris Ballard thinks they are average considering he didn't take a wr high in the draft or that he has alot of faith in current group

 

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

Pascal could possibly be a 1000 yard wr  if he and Wentz are in sync

 

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

Granson will be our best receiving te hands down

Your faith is strong in these guys, Stephen.

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17 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

It was early in his career. Posters refused to believe Hilton could be a WR1. Size? Pascal is 6 2 200 pounds. That is not a small guy. I would say his route running, blocking, and catching are pretty good. Not great, but it works for him and he comes through when we need him. If you want more proof in the colts belief in him, Pascal outsnapped Hilton towards the end of the season.

TY had great speed, so I always felt he could play inside or out regardless of height. My biggest concern when drafted was that he was from a smaller college, which I think is a fair concern. But he had great production in 3-4 years in a row there, so not like he was a one year wonder.

 

Pascal is a tweener to me. 6-2 is too small for X, and his speed is too slow for Z or traditional slot. I know there are exceptions, but they are few. As long as he continues to do the little things right, he'll compete for a depth spot or rotational snaps.

 

And I really don't care about any argument that includes the Colt's "belief" in him. IMO, that's one of those lazy subjective narratives people fall back on, similar to "Ballard says" or "Reich says". Over the years the Colts have believed in a ton of guys that were average, below average, or simply not very good. Not trying to be confrontational on the point, I'm just saying the "belief" narrative doesn't carry a lot of weight. If you want to talk about "worth" or "value", that's fine. The Colts placed a 2nd round tender on ZP, which no teams bit. They also drafted an X (MP) in the draft last year, and slot (PC) the year before. 

 

As far as him out-snapping TY down the stretch, don't forget TY was dealing with groin issue the second half of the year. And even though Pascal saw a bit more snaps than TY the second half of the year, TY still had a lot more targets, even in fewer snaps. So one could say it's likely he was blocking and running clear outs a lot, which is fine (somebody has to do it).

 

 

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2 hours ago, Stephen said:

Do you think  Chris Ballard thinks they are average considering he didn't take a wr high in the draft or that he has alot of faith in current group

I think Ballard had clearly bigger needs this year. And he's also used 2 early picks the previous 2 years on WRs. You simply can't take a WR every year in the first two rounds. 

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On 6/11/2021 at 1:33 PM, Stephen said:

To many the colts have question marks at wr but I don't think so. T.y. Hilton is built to play with big armed QBs like wentz.

Why specifically (the bolded)?

On 6/11/2021 at 1:33 PM, Stephen said:

 

Also Michael will thrive with our improved down field passing attack. He was poorly used in that way with rivers.

Reich has been conservative with 3 different QBs, and has been on record IIRC this summer saying we will be focused on running, and rhythm passing (which typically means dink/dunk). I agree Pittman was poorly used (mostly short stuff and crossers, instead of typical X routes on the sideline or deep). But what specifically makes you believe we'll see significantly more downfield passing as a norm (not just when down and playing hero ball).

 

 

On 6/11/2021 at 1:33 PM, Stephen said:

Then comes our most under rated wr Zach pascal. He's capable of being a 1000 yard receiver with Wentz under center and went for over 600 yards twice with brissett and rivers. An excellent blocker and an all around great wr. 

Pascal will likely see his snap count decrease big time if the starters (X Pittman, Z Hilton, slot Campbell) are healthy.

On 6/11/2021 at 1:33 PM, Stephen said:

 

This doesn't factor in our two x factors Parris Campbell and Kylen Granson. Parris is all about health and Granson it's all about targets. If Granson gets the targets he will beat Dwayne Allen's rookie record for recs and will have the colts rookie record for tes

Your title lists WR, and Granson is a TE. But I agree Granson could see Burton type snap levels, but I also think Burton was used more because our starting slot was injured. If Campbell is healthy, the need to run slot routes with the TE is diminished.

 

On 6/11/2021 at 2:04 PM, Smonroe said:

I’m guessing that just a lot of fan bases thinks they have the most underrated position group.

 

That translates to unproven, but we have faith!

Yup, it's typical fan persecution syndrome lol. We have the "makings" of a pretty good group, but there are a lot of "ifs"

 

On 6/11/2021 at 2:46 PM, Wentzszn said:

It’s going to be rare for this team to have a 1k yard WR. We spread the ball around too much and run the ball a ton. 

I think we'll have one guy yearly with Wentz (if he comes back to form) that cracks 1000 or gets very close, Campbell would be my bet this season if he stays healthy. That's a big if though. As much as we throw it to the RBs and spread the ball, along with running it so much, just won't see a lot of guys with top heavy numbers.

 

 

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1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

Why specifically (the bolded)?

Reich has been conservative with 3 different QBs, and has been on record IIRC this summer saying we will be focused on running, and rhythm passing (which typically means dink/dunk). I agree Pittman was poorly used (mostly short stuff and crossers, instead of typical X routes on the sideline or deep). But what specifically makes you believe we'll see significantly more downfield passing as a norm (not just when down and playing hero ball).

 

 

Pascal will likely see his snap count decrease big time if the starters (X Pittman, Z Hilton, slot Campbell) are healthy.

Your title lists WR, and Granson is a TE. But I agree Granson could see Burton type snap levels, but I also think Burton was used more because our starting slot was injured. If Campbell is healthy, the need to run slot routes with the TE is diminished.

 

Yup, it's typical fan persecution syndrome lol. We have the "makings" of a pretty good group, but there are a lot of "ifs"

 

I think we'll have one guy yearly with Wentz (if he comes back to form) that cracks 1000 or gets very close, Campbell would be my bet this season if he stays healthy. That's a big if though. As much as we throw it to the RBs and spread the ball, along with running it so much, just won't see a lot of guys with top heavy numbers.

 

 

When the eagles won the SB Ertz I believe was their leading receiver with just over 800 yards.

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18 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

When the eagles won the SB Ertz I believe was their leading receiver with just over 800 yards.

Ertz led the Eagles in receiving yards 17, 18, and 19

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19 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Why specifically (the bolded)?

Reich has been conservative with 3 different QBs, and has been on record IIRC this summer saying we will be focused on running, and rhythm passing (which typically means dink/dunk). I agree Pittman was poorly used (mostly short stuff and crossers, instead of typical X routes on the sideline or deep). But what specifically makes you believe we'll see significantly more downfield passing as a norm (not just when down and playing hero ball).

 

 

Pascal will likely see his snap count decrease big time if the starters (X Pittman, Z Hilton, slot Campbell) are healthy.

Your title lists WR, and Granson is a TE. But I agree Granson could see Burton type snap levels, but I also think Burton was used more because our starting slot was injured. If Campbell is healthy, the need to run slot routes with the TE is diminished.

 

Yup, it's typical fan persecution syndrome lol. We have the "makings" of a pretty good group, but there are a lot of "ifs"

 

I think we'll have one guy yearly with Wentz (if he comes back to form) that cracks 1000 or gets very close, Campbell would be my bet this season if he stays healthy. That's a big if though. As much as we throw it to the RBs and spread the ball, along with running it so much, just won't see a lot of guys with top heavy numbers.

 

 

Honestly we could have an offense where you have five six to 900 guys

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21 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I think Ballard had clearly bigger needs this year. And he's also used 2 early picks the previous 2 years on WRs. You simply can't take a WR every year in the first two rounds. 

Was hoping smith tell to us but eagles got him lol

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On 6/13/2021 at 5:53 PM, Stephen said:

Do you think  Chris Ballard thinks they are average considering he didn't take a wr high in the draft or that he has alot of faith in current group

 My assessment of Colts receiver core was not harsh by any means. I said there's a lot of upside there, there's also some proving to do. It's not unreasonable to think that Ballard believes the same thing.

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22 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Why specifically (the bolded)?

Reich has been conservative with 3 different QBs, and has been on record IIRC this summer saying we will be focused on running, and rhythm passing (which typically means dink/dunk). I agree Pittman was poorly used (mostly short stuff and crossers, instead of typical X routes on the sideline or deep). But what specifically makes you believe we'll see significantly more downfield passing as a norm (not just when down and playing hero ball).

 

 

Pascal will likely see his snap count decrease big time if the starters (X Pittman, Z Hilton, slot Campbell) are healthy.

Your title lists WR, and Granson is a TE. But I agree Granson could see Burton type snap levels, but I also think Burton was used more because our starting slot was injured. If Campbell is healthy, the need to run slot routes with the TE is diminished.

 

Yup, it's typical fan persecution syndrome lol. We have the "makings" of a pretty good group, but there are a lot of "ifs"

 

I think we'll have one guy yearly with Wentz (if he comes back to form) that cracks 1000 or gets very close, Campbell would be my bet this season if he stays healthy. That's a big if though. As much as we throw it to the RBs and spread the ball, along with running it so much, just won't see a lot of guys with top heavy numbers.

 

 

Hilton is nelson A    Campbell is Tory smith Pittman is alshon Jeffery Granson is Trey Burton  pascal is extra  Cox is ertz  Doyle is extra Jonathan Taylor hines mack  honestly we may be deeper on offense than 2017 eagles

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Stephen said:

Honestly we could have an offense where you have five six to 900 guys

Sure we could. But why do you think Reich will all of sudden start going deep a bunch? 

 

As long as Pittman, TY, and Campbell remain healthy, I don't see Pascal over 500. I think 350-500 is a good range for him given or assuming he's the 4th or 5th WR, and also given how much we pass to RBs.

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On 6/11/2021 at 2:04 PM, Smonroe said:

I’m guessing that just a lot of fan bases thinks they have the most underrated position group.

 

That translates to unproven, but we have faith!

just average unproven talent

 

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7 minutes ago, DEFENSE said:

just average unproven talent

 

What?

 

You don’t like something about the Colts?

 

Shocking!   
 

I didn’t see that coming…..     :facepalm:

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On 6/11/2021 at 2:18 PM, chad72 said:

 

Pittman does not have breakaway speed, IMO and NO, he was not poorly used. I sometimes wonder how fans seem to know better than the OC and HC??? :dunno:

 

Rivers had career numbers in this offense. Luck, with a big arm like Wentz, had more shorter routes called as well under Reich, improving his efficiency as well. Fans need to look a bit deeper. 

 

Not saying Pittman was poorly used.  As a rookie coming into the league during the such a weird time (no preseason games, very limited in person reps, etc.), it seemed like Pittman was starting to get more comfortable to the NFL each week until he had to miss 4 games to injury.  Then he came back and seemed like he started up pretty much where he left off and seemed to improve each week.

 

I don't think he has breakaway speed either (I'd say Tyreek Hill, DK Metcalf and a few other WRs in the league have true breakaway speed), but a 4.52 forty for a guy as big as him is not shabby at all.  He also seems to be elusively fast on the field (i.e., he seems to play a little faster than his combine numbers, especially with the ball in his hand).  

 

All that said, I don't think we have seen Pittman's true potential yet.  For one, he was a rookie last year and it was a weird year - and many WRs make big jumps from rookie year to year 2 (sometimes it takes 3-4 years, ala Reggie).  Early injuries to Campbell and Mack definitely changed some of Reich/Sirianni's plan for the O.  My guess is Rivers' foot injury also did, as he went from the least mobile QB in the NFL to even less mobile and he seemed to struggle putting full strength into his throws.  Rivers did well in our O, but he definitely does not have the arm strength that Wentz does and I have to think that further limited Reich's playbook (see video below, Rivers barely got a Hail Mary 50 yards in the air, Wentz can stand flatfooted and launch it 60+ yards).  Wentz, when healthy, is also an extremely mobile QB.  I don't expect Reich to fully open the offense up to a Bruce Arians' style, but I would be shocked if we don't see new wrinkles added in with some more deep shots being taken now that we have a QB who has more arm strength and mobility along with a fairly normal offseason to get WR and QB reps down in person quite a bit.

 

 

On 6/11/2021 at 7:01 PM, NewColtsFan said:

 

Sorry....    sorry....    sorry....     my bad....
 

I got distracted and left off the TE group.....

 

Honestly,  I don't have a good feel yet for how I think they'll do,  so I'll go a bit conservative on them.

 

I expect Doyle to get 40-50 receptions for about 400-500 yards.   (Not sure how healthy he'll be and how much he'll play)

I expect MAC to get  35-40 receptions for about 350-450 yards.

I expect Granson to get 35-40 reptions for about 400-500 yards.

 

A footnote to the previous post.    I didn't post numbers for the other players we will clearly use.   That doesn't mean I don't think they'll play and contribute.     I was just posting the obvious leaders for each group.   I'm sure other players will post numbers for the colts as well.

 

This coupled with your other stats, if we look at the high end, would have Wentz throwing for 5,500 yards and on the low end 4,600 yards (and you're not counting guys like Mack and other WRs who will likely contribute at least some yards).  I think if Wentz throws for >4,500 yards, it'll be a great year for him.  If he throws for 5,500 yards, wow!!  I hope you're right, but I'm not quite as optimistic as we have seen Campbell, TY, Doyle, Cox and Pittman all miss time due to injury in recent seasons and really don't know what to expect from Granson, Campbell or other young WRs.

 

It'd be great to see it to happen, but Wentz' career high in passing yards is 4,038 which is the only time he's thrown for over 4k.  That said, Reich's first year saw Luck throw for almost 4,600 and Rivers threw for almost 4,200 last year.  If Wentz and the WRs can stay healthy, I think we'll see him be used more like Luck than Rivers.  It has also been said that Marcus Brady may be a bit more aggressive than Sirianni (I know Reich calls the plays, but I think the overall game plan is decided by Reich and his OC).    

 

On 6/12/2021 at 9:08 AM, holeymoley99 said:

Ive always like Patmon going back to his Wash State days, he glides when he runs and could be a big factor if he has improved his route tree. He  was putting in work with Wentz and Pittman day 1.

 

I also am a big fan of D .Harris he came out of nowhere last season as an drafted rookie and produced both as a rec and on end arounds. Very similar skill set to Hines and like Hines started at both WR and RB while in college.

 

I would say we have one of the deepest WR squads because there are going to be multiple players cut that would make many other teams. Hopefully we get those players through and onto practice squad. 

 

Not disagreeing here, but the thing is, several players we cut who likely make other teams are going to make other teams as 4th, 5th, or 6th WR options.  I don't think any WR on our team would be the #1 WR on most other teams at this point (there are a few teams like NYJ, Carolina, Detroit, and maybe a couple more where TY or Pittman would at least challenge to be the best WR).  On the flip side of that, there are several teams where no WR on our team would be top 2 (e.g., Tennessee, Cleveland, Minnesota, KC).  

 

On 6/12/2021 at 6:22 PM, AwesomeAustin said:

Yeah...he was a good player but not HOF material. Only made the playoffs 7 out of 17 years. He will definitely make it but I personally feel he is a product of the current era but still was an above average player.  Still, a topic for another thread.  Probably shouldn’t have responded lol. 

 

See below.  He is certainly HOF material.  Recall that the Chargers organization was so bad when he came into the league that Eli (well Archie) Manning was going to refuse to sign with them after being the 1st overall pick, which is why he was traded for Rivers (who the Giants selected 4th overall).  

 

There have been plenty of QBs in the current era.  He is in the same class as Eli and Big Ben, both future HOFers, and he put up better numbers than both of them during his time in the league (minus SB rings).  In fact, the only guys who he played against for a good chunk of his career (all of whom came into the league earlier than him) who put up better numbers were Peyton, Brady and Brees (pretty easy to make the argument that Brady and Peyton are the two best QBs ever and also pretty easy to make a case for Brees as #3, if not, at least in the top 5 ever to play the game).  Matt Ryan has a good shot at surpassing some of Rivers' numbers as well, and he'll also likely make the HOF a few years after Rivers.

 

Above average QBs in the league who were around for good chunks of Rivers' career are guys like Flacco, Carson Palmer, Alex Smith, Jay Cutler, Tony Romo... Rivers is a step ahead of all them and is a HOFer regardless of his lack of an SB appearance or the fact that his team wasn't always in the playoffs.

 

On 6/12/2021 at 11:20 PM, Myles said:

Mine is just personal.   Based on history of who they let in, he is a shoe in.  

I would just like to see the HOF be tougher to get in to.   In none of the years Rivers played was he considered one of the top 4 (maybe 5) QB's in the league.  My criteria would include that during your era, you had to have been thought of as one of the top 1-3 in the league at your position for a few years.  Not a stat based evaluation.  More of an era based evaluation.  

 

Rivers could very well have been the MVP in '08, leading the league in TDs, passer rating, and yards per attempt.  He was definitely top 3 QB that year.  Also, 2010 and 2013 he was likely a top 3 QB.  To be fair, Rivers played the majority of his career in an era which had the 2 greatest QBs of all time (Peyton and Brady) as well as Brees (who retired at the top of several notable passing stat charts) and Rodgers (and future HOFers in Eli Manning and Big Ben).  Early is his career he had all-time greats like Favre and Kurt Warner .. late  in his career he had very solid younger guys like Luck, Wilson and Mahommes (who is off to the best start of any QB in NFL history).

 

He retired top 5 all time in TDs, completions and yards and is only one of 12 guys in NFL history to have a career passer rating of >95.  He was an 8x pro-bowler and his only two major knocks are that he didn't win a SB or MVP award.  He was incredibly tough and durable throughout his career (the game he played with a torn ACL is ranked in the top 10 gutsiest performances in NFL history).  Undoubtedly, he's a HOFer -- he should be first ballot, though I won't be shocked if it takes him 2-3x to get in as some voters will likely look at his lack of SB appearances as a major downfall.

 

On 6/13/2021 at 1:13 AM, CR91 said:

 

It was early in his career. Posters refused to believe Hilton could be a WR1. Size? Pascal is 6 2 200 pounds. That is not a small guy. I would say his route running, blocking, and catching are pretty good. Not great, but it works for him and he comes through when we need him. If you want more proof in the colts belief in him, Pascal outsnapped Hilton towards the end of the season.

 

Has TY ever truly been a solid #1 WR?  2016 probably is the only year when he had 91 receptions for 1,448 yards (led the league in yards).  I like TY, but the guy never had 100+ receptions in a year, had >90 1x (2016) and two seasons with 82 receptions (2013, 2014) and only one other season >70 receptions.  So in 9 seasons he has had >70 receptions in 4 (less than half).  Marv had 8 straight seasons with >80 receptions, with 4 in a row of them being >100.  Reggie had 9 straight seasons with >70 receptions (4 of them >100)

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8 hours ago, DEFENSE said:

just average unproven talent

 

 

If the Colts WRs were to be individually graded - not based on potential, but actual historical performance and age, I'm guessing it would be something like this:

 

Hilton - B (May be too high based on him not being in a top 50 WRs last year, and his age.  But I take into account his historical performance)

 

Pittman - C+ (Good rookie season, shows potential)

 

Pascal - C+ (Solid all around receiver.  Decent #3)

 

Campbell - I (Great potential, but not on the field enough to earn a grade)

 

All the rest - either C or N/A.

 

I think that's a pretty fair analysis of past performance.  I'm in no way projecting that forward.  

 

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3 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Not saying Pittman was poorly used.  As a rookie coming into the league during the such a weird time (no preseason games, very limited in person reps, etc.), it seemed like Pittman was starting to get more comfortable to the NFL each week until he had to miss 4 games to injury.  Then he came back and seemed like he started up pretty much where he left off and seemed to improve each week.

 

I don't think he has breakaway speed either (I'd say Tyreek Hill, DK Metcalf and a few other WRs in the league have true breakaway speed), but a 4.52 forty for a guy as big as him is not shabby at all.  He also seems to be elusively fast on the field (i.e., he seems to play a little faster than his combine numbers, especially with the ball in his hand).  

 

All that said, I don't think we have seen Pittman's true potential yet.  For one, he was a rookie last year and it was a weird year - and many WRs make big jumps from rookie year to year 2 (sometimes it takes 3-4 years, ala Reggie).  Early injuries to Campbell and Mack definitely changed some of Reich/Sirianni's plan for the O.  My guess is Rivers' foot injury also did, as he went from the least mobile QB in the NFL to even less mobile and he seemed to struggle putting full strength into his throws.  Rivers did well in our O, but he definitely does not have the arm strength that Wentz does and I have to think that further limited Reich's playbook (see video below, Rivers barely got a Hail Mary 50 yards in the air, Wentz can stand flatfooted and launch it 60+ yards).  Wentz, when healthy, is also an extremely mobile QB.  I don't expect Reich to fully open the offense up to a Bruce Arians' style, but I would be shocked if we don't see new wrinkles added in with some more deep shots being taken now that we have a QB who has more arm strength and mobility along with a fairly normal offseason to get WR and QB reps down in person quite a bit.

 

 

 

This coupled with your other stats, if we look at the high end, would have Wentz throwing for 5,500 yards and on the low end 4,600 yards (and you're not counting guys like Mack and other WRs who will likely contribute at least some yards).  I think if Wentz throws for >4,500 yards, it'll be a great year for him.  If he throws for 5,500 yards, wow!!  I hope you're right, but I'm not quite as optimistic as we have seen Campbell, TY, Doyle, Cox and Pittman all miss time due to injury in recent seasons and really don't know what to expect from Granson, Campbell or other young WRs.

 

It'd be great to see it to happen, but Wentz' career high in passing yards is 4,038 which is the only time he's thrown for over 4k.  That said, Reich's first year saw Luck throw for almost 4,600 and Rivers threw for almost 4,200 last year.  If Wentz and the WRs can stay healthy, I think we'll see him be used more like Luck than Rivers.  It has also been said that Marcus Brady may be a bit more aggressive than Sirianni (I know Reich calls the plays, but I think the overall game plan is decided by Reich and his OC).    

 

 

Not disagreeing here, but the thing is, several players we cut who likely make other teams are going to make other teams as 4th, 5th, or 6th WR options.  I don't think any WR on our team would be the #1 WR on most other teams at this point (there are a few teams like NYJ, Carolina, Detroit, and maybe a couple more where TY or Pittman would at least challenge to be the best WR).  On the flip side of that, there are several teams where no WR on our team would be top 2 (e.g., Tennessee, Cleveland, Minnesota, KC).  

 

 

See below.  He is certainly HOF material.  Recall that the Chargers organization was so bad when he came into the league that Eli (well Archie) Manning was going to refuse to sign with them after being the 1st overall pick, which is why he was traded for Rivers (who the Giants selected 4th overall).  

 

There have been plenty of QBs in the current era.  He is in the same class as Eli and Big Ben, both future HOFers, and he put up better numbers than both of them during his time in the league (minus SB rings).  In fact, the only guys who he played against for a good chunk of his career (all of whom came into the league earlier than him) who put up better numbers were Peyton, Brady and Brees (pretty easy to make the argument that Brady and Peyton are the two best QBs ever and also pretty easy to make a case for Brees as #3, if not, at least in the top 5 ever to play the game).  Matt Ryan has a good shot at surpassing some of Rivers' numbers as well, and he'll also likely make the HOF a few years after Rivers.

 

Above average QBs in the league who were around for good chunks of Rivers' career are guys like Flacco, Carson Palmer, Alex Smith, Jay Cutler, Tony Romo... Rivers is a step ahead of all them and is a HOFer regardless of his lack of an SB appearance or the fact that his team wasn't always in the playoffs.

 

 

Rivers could very well have been the MVP in '08, leading the league in TDs, passer rating, and yards per attempt.  He was definitely top 3 QB that year.  Also, 2010 and 2013 he was likely a top 3 QB.  To be fair, Rivers played the majority of his career in an era which had the 2 greatest QBs of all time (Peyton and Brady) as well as Brees (who retired at the top of several notable passing stat charts) and Rodgers (and future HOFers in Eli Manning and Big Ben).  Early is his career he had all-time greats like Favre and Kurt Warner .. late  in his career he had very solid younger guys like Luck, Wilson and Mahommes (who is off to the best start of any QB in NFL history).

 

He retired top 5 all time in TDs, completions and yards and is only one of 12 guys in NFL history to have a career passer rating of >95.  He was an 8x pro-bowler and his only two major knocks are that he didn't win a SB or MVP award.  He was incredibly tough and durable throughout his career (the game he played with a torn ACL is ranked in the top 10 gutsiest performances in NFL history).  Undoubtedly, he's a HOFer -- he should be first ballot, though I won't be shocked if it takes him 2-3x to get in as some voters will likely look at his lack of SB appearances as a major downfall.

 

 

Has TY ever truly been a solid #1 WR?  2016 probably is the only year when he had 91 receptions for 1,448 yards (led the league in yards).  I like TY, but the guy never had 100+ receptions in a year, had >90 1x (2016) and two seasons with 82 receptions (2013, 2014) and only one other season >70 receptions.  So in 9 seasons he has had >70 receptions in 4 (less than half).  Marv had 8 straight seasons with >80 receptions, with 4 in a row of them being >100.  Reggie had 9 straight seasons with >70 receptions (4 of them >100)

 

Are we really arguing Hilton's impact with the colts? Go check his impact with Andrew before he got hurt. Also he's only 600 yards short of 10000. 

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The most underrated WR corps. Huh.. I couldn't say, but I don't think it's underrated exactly. It's just rated. Wentz plays well, the pass catchers will get their shine. He doesn't, then guys like TY don't get to play to the full potential...

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Everything I say next is based on Carson Wentz having a comeback year. I think he will, but who knows?

That said I'll begin:

TY Hilton may be on the downside but if Wentz can buy time with his legs, TY can and will get open deep. I see more big plays.

Michael Pittman may not be a 4.3 40 guy but his length counts downfield. I believe he will make positive strides this year. Plus, he's been a bit dinged up and now healthy.

Paris Campbell has that ridiculous quickness....when healthy. He may far exceed expectations if he does stay healthy.

Zach Pascal is a really, really good blue collar guy that plays tough, blocks tough and IS tough. I love his play.

The 5th WR will be a product of camp. Patmon with his size, Dulin with his ST play, Strachan with his athleticism will compete.

 

If the tight ends are to be a big factor in the passing game, I believe Granson will need to perfect the seam routes. Jack and MAC are steady performers and very much suited to the offense. 

 

It is afterall, June and much will depend on the evil injury bug. The one thing I do see is functional depth in the receivers. 

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11 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Not saying Pittman was poorly used.  As a rookie coming into the league during the such a weird time (no preseason games, very limited in person reps, etc.), it seemed like Pittman was starting to get more comfortable to the NFL each week until he had to miss 4 games to injury.  Then he came back and seemed like he started up pretty much where he left off and seemed to improve each week.

 

I don't think he has breakaway speed either (I'd say Tyreek Hill, DK Metcalf and a few other WRs in the league have true breakaway speed), but a 4.52 forty for a guy as big as him is not shabby at all.  He also seems to be elusively fast on the field (i.e., he seems to play a little faster than his combine numbers, especially with the ball in his hand).  

 

All that said, I don't think we have seen Pittman's true potential yet.  For one, he was a rookie last year and it was a weird year - and many WRs make big jumps from rookie year to year 2 (sometimes it takes 3-4 years, ala Reggie).  Early injuries to Campbell and Mack definitely changed some of Reich/Sirianni's plan for the O.  My guess is Rivers' foot injury also did, as he went from the least mobile QB in the NFL to even less mobile and he seemed to struggle putting full strength into his throws.  Rivers did well in our O, but he definitely does not have the arm strength that Wentz does and I have to think that further limited Reich's playbook (see video below, Rivers barely got a Hail Mary 50 yards in the air, Wentz can stand flatfooted and launch it 60+ yards).  Wentz, when healthy, is also an extremely mobile QB.  I don't expect Reich to fully open the offense up to a Bruce Arians' style, but I would be shocked if we don't see new wrinkles added in with some more deep shots being taken now that we have a QB who has more arm strength and mobility along with a fairly normal offseason to get WR and QB reps down in person quite a bit.

 

 

 

This coupled with your other stats, if we look at the high end, would have Wentz throwing for 5,500 yards and on the low end 4,600 yards (and you're not counting guys like Mack and other WRs who will likely contribute at least some yards).  I think if Wentz throws for >4,500 yards, it'll be a great year for him.  If he throws for 5,500 yards, wow!!  I hope you're right, but I'm not quite as optimistic as we have seen Campbell, TY, Doyle, Cox and Pittman all miss time due to injury in recent seasons and really don't know what to expect from Granson, Campbell or other young WRs.

 

It'd be great to see it to happen, but Wentz' career high in passing yards is 4,038 which is the only time he's thrown for over 4k.  That said, Reich's first year saw Luck throw for almost 4,600 and Rivers threw for almost 4,200 last year.  If Wentz and the WRs can stay healthy, I think we'll see him be used more like Luck than Rivers.  It has also been said that Marcus Brady may be a bit more aggressive than Sirianni (I know Reich calls the plays, but I think the overall game plan is decided by Reich and his OC).    

 

 

Not disagreeing here, but the thing is, several players we cut who likely make other teams are going to make other teams as 4th, 5th, or 6th WR options.  I don't think any WR on our team would be the #1 WR on most other teams at this point (there are a few teams like NYJ, Carolina, Detroit, and maybe a couple more where TY or Pittman would at least challenge to be the best WR).  On the flip side of that, there are several teams where no WR on our team would be top 2 (e.g., Tennessee, Cleveland, Minnesota, KC).  

 

 

See below.  He is certainly HOF material.  Recall that the Chargers organization was so bad when he came into the league that Eli (well Archie) Manning was going to refuse to sign with them after being the 1st overall pick, which is why he was traded for Rivers (who the Giants selected 4th overall).  

 

There have been plenty of QBs in the current era.  He is in the same class as Eli and Big Ben, both future HOFers, and he put up better numbers than both of them during his time in the league (minus SB rings).  In fact, the only guys who he played against for a good chunk of his career (all of whom came into the league earlier than him) who put up better numbers were Peyton, Brady and Brees (pretty easy to make the argument that Brady and Peyton are the two best QBs ever and also pretty easy to make a case for Brees as #3, if not, at least in the top 5 ever to play the game).  Matt Ryan has a good shot at surpassing some of Rivers' numbers as well, and he'll also likely make the HOF a few years after Rivers.

 

Above average QBs in the league who were around for good chunks of Rivers' career are guys like Flacco, Carson Palmer, Alex Smith, Jay Cutler, Tony Romo... Rivers is a step ahead of all them and is a HOFer regardless of his lack of an SB appearance or the fact that his team wasn't always in the playoffs.

 

 

Rivers could very well have been the MVP in '08, leading the league in TDs, passer rating, and yards per attempt.  He was definitely top 3 QB that year.  Also, 2010 and 2013 he was likely a top 3 QB.  To be fair, Rivers played the majority of his career in an era which had the 2 greatest QBs of all time (Peyton and Brady) as well as Brees (who retired at the top of several notable passing stat charts) and Rodgers (and future HOFers in Eli Manning and Big Ben).  Early is his career he had all-time greats like Favre and Kurt Warner .. late  in his career he had very solid younger guys like Luck, Wilson and Mahommes (who is off to the best start of any QB in NFL history).

 

He retired top 5 all time in TDs, completions and yards and is only one of 12 guys in NFL history to have a career passer rating of >95.  He was an 8x pro-bowler and his only two major knocks are that he didn't win a SB or MVP award.  He was incredibly tough and durable throughout his career (the game he played with a torn ACL is ranked in the top 10 gutsiest performances in NFL history).  Undoubtedly, he's a HOFer -- he should be first ballot, though I won't be shocked if it takes him 2-3x to get in as some voters will likely look at his lack of SB appearances as a major downfall.

 

 

Has TY ever truly been a solid #1 WR?  2016 probably is the only year when he had 91 receptions for 1,448 yards (led the league in yards).  I like TY, but the guy never had 100+ receptions in a year, had >90 1x (2016) and two seasons with 82 receptions (2013, 2014) and only one other season >70 receptions.  So in 9 seasons he has had >70 receptions in 4 (less than half).  Marv had 8 straight seasons with >80 receptions, with 4 in a row of them being >100.  Reggie had 9 straight seasons with >70 receptions (4 of them >100)

Great post.  Hey man where is that pic in your avatar?  Reminds me of when I lived in northern AZ.

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