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Colts in PFF's Top 32 position ranks heading into 2021 (if you don't like PFF, don't click lol)


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Interesting tidbits Fisher not in the top 32 of 32 best OTs entering 2021 Glow was 25th in OG (L and R included). Not bad at all for a "weak link". I've said for a few years now, he's the

Would you be shocked if I told you huge part of what PFF does is actually WATCH every single snap of every single player and grading their performance on every single snap? What people don't seem to u

But cared enough to post a rude reply in a topic where the OP made it clear in the title it was going to be about analytics.    I think that says more about you than it does about the validi

5 hours ago, AwesomeAustin said:

I’m consistently enjoying these stat threads and discussions. Thank you to all that participate(even the haters lol). 

I agree 100%, Statistics is one great way to measure/rank players. I love these threads as well. You learn a lot from these type of threads.

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12 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I agree 100%, Statistics is one great way to measure/rank players. I love these threads as well. You learn a lot from these type of threads.

When I was  single with no children I had five fantasy teams and watched 50-60 games a year.  I kept up on all the different players. Different times now for sure.  I miss Colts games to get work on the house done.  These threads help me keep somewhat up to date. 

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1 hour ago, AwesomeAustin said:

When I was  single with no children I had five fantasy teams and watched 50-60 games a year.  I kept up on all the different players. Different times now for sure.  I miss Colts games to get work on the house done.  These threads help me keep somewhat up to date. 

I have won my fantasy league twice, I usually play every year with 11 others and it is almost the same guys that play every year. We started playing in 2014 in our 12 team league. Didn't play last season though because nobody wanted too due to Covid. My favorite win was in 2018 - Andrew Luck was my QB and he was great that season! 

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On 5/29/2021 at 12:48 PM, twfish said:

Appreciate you taking the time to getting this all put together even if I don't agree with PFF lol

Now if EastStreet could just get a better intro photo!

 

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5 minutes ago, craigerb said:

Now if EastStreet could just get a better intro photo!

 

 

You say this, but statistics show he's the most right swiped (72% swipe rate) forum member in the Tri-State area.... 

 

"There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics.” 

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4 hours ago, craigerb said:

Now if EastStreet could just get a better intro photo!

 

 

4 hours ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

You say this, but statistics show he's the most right swiped (72% swipe rate) forum member in the Tri-State area.... 

 

"There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics.” 

??? I don't see any connection between these 2 posts.

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https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-cornerback-rankings-the-10-best-slot-cornerbacks-entering-the-2021-nfl-season\

 

 

 

We already know this, but nice to see him getting some respect. 

 

Pulled directly from the article:

 

 

1. KENNY MOORE II, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS

You’ll notice that many of the top slot cornerbacks in the NFL were passed over in the draft before going on to have success. Moore is one such player. He was picked up as an undrafted free agent by the New England Patriots in 2017, only to be cut before making the final roster. Moore landed with the Colts off waivers and has since carved out a valuable role for himself on Indianapolis’ defense. 

Since moving to a primary slot role in 2018, Moore has earned a 90.0 run-defense grade and 86.3 coverage grade when lined up inside. He brings both the physicality and knack for making plays necessary to excel in the slot. That has allowed Moore to be one of the 15 most valuable cornerbacks in the entire league over the last three years, according to PFF’s Wins Above Replacement metric.       

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What I love about Kenny is that he is such a playmaker for us, like Darius Leonard. Kenny is always good for a couple of INTs and sacks every year along with good play. He is such a key part of our defense.

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24 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

Already being discussed in the PFF topic so merged it the Kenny stuff in,

no problem, i hadn't spent enough time in this thread to notice kenny being mentioned. 

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On 5/31/2021 at 2:40 PM, AwesomeAustin said:

When I was  single with no children I had five fantasy teams and watched 50-60 games a year.  I kept up on all the different players. Different times now for sure.  I miss Colts games to get work on the house done.  These threads help me keep somewhat up to date. 

How many kids you got man to be doing housework during the Colts game?

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5 hours ago, AustinnKaine said:

no problem, i hadn't spent enough time in this thread to notice kenny being mentioned. 

 

Sorry, I wasn't quite sure if to do stand alone (as we do have one already) or try to keep it all together as @EastStreet started with his OP.

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On 5/30/2021 at 2:20 PM, stitches said:

A lot of it is subjective, but that's not a problem for me as long as it's applied consistently accross their system. For example... what is a contested catch? Does the CB have to be 1 feet away or half a foot away? Or does he need to be draped all over the receiver? A lot of stats require a human to make a determination about how to count the stat. Another example - even the simplest of things - the receiver catches the ball... his feet are at the 40 yard line but his hands are at the 41 yard line. Where do you put that catch for the purposes of air yards and similar stats? It's subjective, whatever the criteria is if it's consistently applied... it doesn't really matter - over long enough sample things will even out.

 

The problem for me is we don't have the answers to those questions. We don't know that PFF applies these standards consistently, and because of the human element, there's definitely room for bias.

 

Ultimately, that's PFF's info, which they won't share, and that's fine. But those questions remain, for me.

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23 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The problem for me is we don't have the answers to those questions. We don't know that PFF applies these standards consistently, and because of the human element, there's definitely room for bias.

 

Ultimately, that's PFF's info, which they won't share, and that's fine. But those questions remain, for me.

Do you have any reason to think they don't apply those standards consistently? AFAIK their grades are done by multiple graders that serve as a self-correcting mechanism. Also, keep in mind that ALL 32 teams are their clients so there must be that additional incentive for them to do the best job they can rather than give in to biases. 

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16 minutes ago, stitches said:

Do you have any reason to think they don't apply those standards consistently? AFAIK their grades are done by multiple graders that serve as a self-correcting mechanism. Also, keep in mind that ALL 32 teams are their clients so there must be that additional incentive for them to do the best job they can rather than give in to biases. 

 

Just the fact that they're human, making subjective judgments of other humans. I doubt that explicit bias is a problem, but there are other biases that could influence their grades, in a number of ways.

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13 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Just the fact that they're human, making subjective judgments of other humans. I doubt that explicit bias is a problem, but there are other biases that could influence their grades, in a number of ways.

What's an example of a bias you are worried about impacting their grading? 

 

(the one I can think of is - them having bias based on their college evaluations - being biased towards giving better grades to players they liked in college and worse grades to players they didn't like in college... I guess it's possible) 

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9 hours ago, Nickster said:

How many kids you got man to be doing housework during the Colts game?

Two.  A 9yr old girl and 9mo old boy. I moved from the city and bought a fixer upper in a small town. We are 2yrs in on a 3yr plan.  We are finishing the kitchen up this month and down to a bathroom shower, paint one bedroom and a full gut on another bedroom. It has taken up most of my free time but will be debt free in 8 more payments!! 

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1 hour ago, stitches said:

What's an example of a bias you are worried about impacting their grading? 

 

(the one I can think of is - them having bias based on their college evaluations - being biased towards giving better grades to players they liked in college and worse grades to players they didn't like in college... I guess it's possible) 

 

Your example is a good one.

 

Another might be believing that a certain technique should be played a specific way, but a player was coached to play it differently. 

 

QB throws inside, WR looks outside. If it's a veteran QB to a young WR, maybe the veteran gets the benefit of the doubt. 

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4 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Your example is a good one.

 

Another might be believing that a certain technique should be played a specific way, but a player was coached to play it differently. 

 

QB throws inside, WR looks outside. If it's a veteran QB to a young WR, maybe the veteran gets the benefit of the doubt. 

 

How about an even more pertinent question in the NFL, when is a catch, a catch? Just thinking of when a 'drop' is actually a drop or when it's badly thrown ball. Some of the stuff is open to interpretation. 

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3 hours ago, AwesomeAustin said:

Two.  A 9yr old girl and 9mo old boy. I moved from the city and bought a fixer upper in a small town. We are 2yrs in on a 3yr plan.  We are finishing the kitchen up this month and down to a bathroom shower, paint one bedroom and a full gut on another bedroom. It has taken up most of my free time but will be debt free in 8 more payments!! 

Yikes a fixer upper.  Hope you pull through man.

 

No debt truly is freedom.

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21 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Yikes a fixer upper.  Hope you pull through man.

 

No debt truly is freedom.

It’s getting there. If all goes as planned it will be “done” by the end of the year. I hope it doesn’t cut into too many more Sundays bc I cherish Colts games.  

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4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Your example is a good one.

 

Another might be believing that a certain technique should be played a specific way, but a player was coached to play it differently. 

 

QB throws inside, WR looks outside. If it's a veteran QB to a young WR, maybe the veteran gets the benefit of the doubt. 

I understand what you are saying, but anytime judgement is happening bias is present. I have spent quite a bit of time in ethics, philosophy, and medical ethics. It is almost, if not, impossible to completely remove bias. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

I understand what you are saying, but anytime judgement is happening bias is present. I have spent quite a bit of time in ethics, philosophy, and medical ethics. It is almost, if not, impossible to completely remove bias. 

 

That's kind of my point. It's a subjective process, it's going to be subject to bias. That doesn't mean it's significantly flawed, but that bias should be acknowledged.

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3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

That's kind of my point. It's a subjective process, it's going to be subject to bias. That doesn't mean it's significantly flawed, but that bias should be acknowledged.

Right and with that being said, I realize the importance of standard in some processes..

 

I think that is also some of the value people find in PFF. You have to imagine that the bias should at least be somewhat consistent. 

 

Of course if the institution does not try to address flagrant examples of bias, they will lose their credibility. I personally don't think PFF is at that point yet.

 

(With that being said, i am not a PFF junkie, I just don't have anything against them)

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1 minute ago, AustinnKaine said:

Right and with that being said, I realize the importance of standard in some processes..

 

I think that is also some of the value people find in PFF. You have to imagine that the bias should at least be somewhat consistent. 

 

Of course if the institution does not try to address flagrant examples of bias, they will lose their credibility. I personally don't think PFF is at that point yet.

 

(With that being said, i am not a PFF junkie, I just don't have anything against them)

 

Same, we agree. I think PFF is great, but people should acknowledge that their grading has certain limitations.

 

Following up on what stitches said earlier, we don't know how the determine a contested catch, or if there's any variance in these determinations from one play to the next. I wouldn't really expect to know, that's proprietary information, but it introduces some questions about what they do and how they do it.

 

And this is just grading. Some of these questions exist with charting, but they aren't as important when you're dealing with raw stats that can easily be cross checked.

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On 5/29/2021 at 11:08 AM, EastStreet said:

 

 

Interesting tidbits

  • Fisher not in the top 32 of 32 best OTs entering 2021
  • Glow was 25th in OG (L and R included). Not bad at all for a "weak link". I've said for a few years now, he's the best weak link in the NFL.
  • Kelly only 9 (does not shock me at all). Good, but not matching the pay
  • The Colts did not have a top 32 wide receiver (not surprising, but that will likely change after the season with luck from the health gods).
  • Doesn't appear that PFF have published ranks for CBs or SAFs. I'll add when they become available.
  • Mo graded top 5, but ranked only 22 due to lack of snaps or use.... Hope to see him get a bigger role
  • Smith's last 5 games,,, very nice.
  • Nice to see Hines get a mention, and nice to have 2 RBs in the top 32. 
  • Last year, our RB unit was graded 6 best gong into the year with Mack assumed to be the #1. I expect our unit grade to be at least that or better when it comes out.

 

Ranks are within position

 

1. QUENTON NELSON, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
The best of the best, Nelson was seen as a generational prospect at guard when he entered the NFL, and he hasn’t disappointed. According to PFF's wins above replacement metric (PFF WAR), the fourth-year guard has been the league's most valuable player at the position in every season of his career and has surrendered just three sacks in three years.

 

5. DEFOREST BUCKNER, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Buckner was exactly what the Colts were hoping to get when they traded for him prior to the 2020 season, if not more. His 89.6 overall grade this past season was a career-high, ranking fifth among qualifiers on the interior. Buckner ranks third at the position in both sacks (38.0) and quarterback hits (66) since entering the league in 2016. He’ll likely have to shoulder much of the load in 2021 due to a young and unproven edge rotation in Indianapolis.   

 

6. DARIUS LEONARD, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS

In three NFL seasons, Darius Leonard doesn’t have a bad PFF grade in any facet of play in any single season, which is a remarkable level of consistency at a position that is routinely exploited by modern offenses. Leonard also has the most forced fumbles of any linebacker since he came into the league (10 including the playoffs).

 

9. RYAN KELLY, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Kelly’s grading profile has never quite matched up with his leaguewide reputation that earned him a record-breaking center contract at the beginning of last season. That doesn’t mean he isn't one of the better centers in the league; he's just not quite in the elite tier. Kelly is the 11th-most valuable center in the league over the past three seasons, per PFF WAR. 

 

13. BRADEN SMITH, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Smith is perhaps one of the more underappreciated players here. He’s manned the Colts' starting right tackle spot since his 2018 rookie campaign, recently establishing himself as one of the top players at the position. He ranks fifth among all right tackles in PFF grade since 2019 and is second to only Ryan Ramczyk over that period in run-blocking grade.

Smith has only gotten better in pass protection, too. He closed out the 2020 season with a red-hot stretch of play in that facet, allowing zero pressures in five of his last six regular season contests. He comes in at No. 12 among tackles in the PFF era when looking at overall grade across one's first three NFL seasons.

 

16. JONATHAN TAYLOR, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
It took him a little while to get rolling, but once he did, we saw how talented Taylor was during his rookie season. The Colts back led all rookies in rushing yards, notching 15 carries of 15 or more yards and 35 carries that went for at least 10 yards.

 

22. MO ALIE-COX, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Alie-Cox did enough last season as part of the Colts tight end rotation to want to see him in a larger role in 2021. His 80.9 PFF grade was a top-five mark at the position on just over 500 snaps on the year. Alie-Cox contributed as both a receiver (2.07 yards per route run) and blocker (79th percentile in positively graded run blocks). He just needs to show similar play in a bigger role again in 2021 to move up the list.    

 

23. CARSON WENTZ, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Wentz led the NFL last season in turnover-worthy plays (24) and didn’t even play after week 14. Can Frank Reich work his magic and get Wentz back to his 2017 form and build his confidence back up? Wentz was on an MVP-caliber tear in 2017 when he earned an overall PFF grade of 84.9 — just behind Drew Brees and 20 grading points higher than his 2020 grade. He was playing lights-out in key situations, with a 91.9 grade on third and fourth downs and a passer rating of 125.0 with 16 touchdowns in those situations. Coaching plays a big role in key situations, so the Colts have some reason to think Wentz will play better under Frank Reich. A tough schedule and erratic big plays in key situations will make for an interesting year.

 

24. JACK DOYLE, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Doyle led the Colts’ three-headed attack at tight end in snaps (596) last season, edging out Alie-Cox and Trey Burton. He falls into the bucket of steady yet unexciting players at the position. Doyle has graded between 69.2 and 75.1 in each of the past seven seasons for Indianapolis. He, along with Alie-Cox, give first-year quarterback Carson Wentz another nice one-two punch at tight end, even if it isn’t quite on par with Ertz and Goedert.  

 

25. MARK GLOWINSKI, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Aided by the players around him, Glowinski has been able to up his game and become a solid member of one of the best offensive lines in the game. Glowinski was capable as both a run-blocker and in pass protection this past season, coughing up just two sacks across 659 pass-blocking snaps with Philip Rivers as his quarterback.

 

27. NYHEIM HINES, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
One of the most fun players to watch in the NFL, Hines may never be a bell cow, but that doesn’t mean he can’t do a little bit of everything for the Colts. Hines broke 20 tackles on 95 carries this season, but he also caught 83.3% of the passes thrown his way.
 

 

You're so organized! Impressive.

 

Do you have a link to the article? Thanks. 

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9 hours ago, stitches said:

What's an example of a bias you are worried about impacting their grading? 

 

(the one I can think of is - them having bias based on their college evaluations - being biased towards giving better grades to players they liked in college and worse grades to players they didn't like in college... I guess it's possible) 

A reminder....
 

Each player is graded on every play, every week, three different times.   And each time is by a different person who doesn’t know what the other evaluators have graded. 


I think that’s a level of protection that I think is pretty safe for all parties concerned.  It doesn’t mean they’re always right.  But I do think when they’re off on NFL game player evaluations they’re typically not off by much. 
 

Just my two cents.....

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1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

A reminder....
 

Each player is graded on every play, every week, three different times.   And each time is by a different person who doesn’t know what the other evaluators have graded. 


I think that’s a level of protection that I think is pretty safe for all parties concerned.  It doesn’t mean they’re always right.  But I do think when they’re off on NFL game player evaluations they’re typically not off by much. 
 

Just my two cents.....

Yeah, I don't really believe it happens, but that's one possible bias they might have, even if they are not doing it consciously. We've seen them grade players like Baker Mayfield really low when he was struggling and he was their guy in the draft. We've seen Mahomes graded super high and he was ranked in the 20s in their draft board. We've seen Leonard grade consistently well for them and he wasn't in their top 250 in that draft. I think they have relatively good safeguards and they do work with teams in the league to constantly improve their grading. I've heard they do meetings with league coaches and FO executives and they review certain types of plays that might be controversial and get their input about whether this player or that player should be responsible for a breakdown or a good play, etc. 

 

What I would absolutely love to see from them is... give the teams a chance to grade their own players and see how much the grades differ from their own. Coaches probably have too much work to do during the season, but off-season it would be amazing to see a coach grade the same players using the same system with the knowledge of what the playcall was. It will give us an idea about areas where PFF and NFL differ in their evaluation of the impact of the play... and it will give us an idea about just how much PFF misses (or doesn't miss) from not knowing the specific playcalls and assignments. I wonder if they've thought about doing something like this. 

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6 hours ago, NFLfan said:

Do you have a link to the article? Thanks. 

Each position is a separate article.

 

All of them are listed here, along with other articles (best deep threat, power rankings, etc).

 

Here are links to the individual position ranking articles that have been published so far:

 

Defense

Outside CornerbackSlot CornerbackSafetyLinebackerEdge DefenderInterior Defender

 

Offense

Receiving CorpsWide ReceiverTight EndRunning Back UnitRunning BackCenterOffensive TackleOffensive GuardQuarterback

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On 6/1/2021 at 4:35 PM, SteelCityColt said:

Of even bigger interest, the Colt safety ranked at no. 24 might not be who you'd expect...

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-safety-rankings-the-32-best-safeties-entering-the-2021-nfl-season

 

@EastStreet sorry to steal your thunder, I can edit your OP if you'd like to add these?

All good. Glad you added. I take a lot of days off in the summer lol. 

 

On Willis, I've said it several times, he's not asked to do a ton of deep stuff (which is probably good), but he's uber steady near the line. His DADOT is the lowest of all DBs, so pretty clear they are keeping him in a lot. He's been pretty good blitzing too (I'd like to see more). Wasn't a big fan when we drafted him, but he's been a great scheme fit. The only time he looks meh is deep (in two deep sets), and again, that just doesn't happen a lot. He's turned into a tremendous value.

On 6/1/2021 at 4:38 PM, SteelCityColt said:

 

You say this, but statistics show he's the most right swiped (72% swipe rate) forum member in the Tri-State area.... 

 

"There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics.” 

 

If you think that's good, you should see my on-line dating stats... lol.

 

Just funnin'... I think honestly people just love boogers.

16 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

You're so organized! Impressive.

 

Do you have a link to the article? Thanks. 

Sorry, there were a bunch of different links, so I just pulled from all the different position pages. 

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52 minutes ago, runthepost said:

Taylor > Chubb

Hines, Mack > Hunt

 

Did I do it right? :sarcasm:

I'm hoping it turns out that way, but right now, it's the opposite. 2021 could change things. But right now, like the article says, Cleveland right now has arguably two top 10 RBs. Those broken tackle stats are hard to ignore.

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